Is anywhere really the land of the free?

[crossdrezzer1]

yes I understand in america its called land of the free but really? is it?... I think not since society dictates that men shall not dawn dresses and if they do all will point and laugh,, well to be honest isnt that true anywhere and not just so in America?,,, well if you truly are free then dawn the dress and be happy,,, but think of this,,who will you be hurting by doing so,,, wife-kids-family-friends?,,, See my point,, if you dont care and not embarresed then go drag out and be happy but by doing so then you are saying you dont care for anyone else,, the only reason most of us stay hidden is for loved ones and that alone,, if I didnt care what people would do and say to my kid and wife I would get pretty every day and hit the rummage sales thrown by my neibors and chat at the local bar(pub for you over sea folks) and just be merry and to be honest alot happier in my pretty attire other than in my boring old drab,,,, thats why I hide and for that I am blessed.... yup sure sucks that the workld makes us deprived in this way for little by little we are moving into a new time and thank god for that,,,, my son got his ears peirced,,,yup both and in my day that was gay as they would put it,,, glad we are moving foward,,, maybe someday there will be a time when a man can get all dolled up and his girlfriend can say my you look pretty,,lets go out and dance but stay away from other girls because you look hot tonight.... maybe................

[curse within]

Nothing is free hell it even cost to die..

[Jodi]

The US might not be perfect in your eyes, but as for civil liberties, It is far ahead of the rest of the world. I have traveled all over the world and have lived in a number of different countries.

Trust me-- enjoy what we have here in the US.

Jodi

[Debutante]

The US might not be perfect in your eyes, but as for civil liberties, It is far ahead of the rest of the world. I have traveled all over the world and have lived in a number of different countries.

Trust me-- enjoy what we have here in the US.

Jodi

True... but we need improvements, and freedom to speak and criticize is the first step.
I think what is being said, is also felt by women: "are we safe anywhere?" Safe from harrasement, physical assault, rape, etc? It's hard for the feminine to be herself in public, in the world...

[Kayla Shadows]

Its just the way people are I guess.There are people that believe "you should always be yourself",who are the same people that hate other people for being themselves.Just beacause they are different.Sometimes freedom seems like it just freedom for some.

I also dont think being yourself makes you selfish and not care about other people.If you have a wife and kid,then thats the situation you put yourself in.If someone chooses to go with someone who is not fully accepting,it is what it is.If you made the bed,theres not much else you can do.If my family would hate me for who I am,I still think "its better to be hated for what you are,then to be loved for what you are not". Its all a personal choice and a way that you look at life.Opinion is just opinion and nobody has the right answer.

If my happiness is going to be seen as selfishness,Im going to be happy anyway.If Im going to be hated for the destiny I choose,I will still follow my destiny.That path is between me and the goddess.Not everybody is the same or desires to be the same.Everything has its opposite for a reason..To give meaning to it.Light is just light without dark.If it was only clear all the time,youd never know what dancing in the rain felt like.I believe our existence is something more than a human being could have a answer to.

[Linda Laman]

I am a CD living 9 months of the year in Thailand and 3 months in Australia. I have no problem going out in Thailand but just don't do it in Australia which is similar to the US in the bigotted attitudes that exist. In Thailand, transvestism is widely accepted: some schools and universities have introduced TV toilets because of the large numbers of TVs attending those institutions. Even the Girl Guides allow CDs to join - I know because I have seen them (Girl Guys?) Nowhere is perfect but this is way ahead of our "advanced" western countries.

[JOJO44]

This is a hot one! Yes we have choices, and yes we must live with the choices that we make. If we choose to ignore other peoples feelings and they get hurt, yes they can choose to "get over it". But we will live with the thought that we hurt some one. I know, its "not my problem"; but are you sure about that? Are we not all equal in the eyes of God? Are we not all brothers and sisters? Are we not our brothers keeper?

If we truly want to be in the land of the free, we must learn to be more tolerant of all those around us. That includes the straight, the gay, the lesbian and us.

Yes, we are the most 'free' country in the world, even though some countries may be more tolerant of our particular situation, freedom to choose how we live openly would be wonderful but our choices does carry consequences, and we must live with them.

[Nigella]

Eutopia doesn't exist and even if there were only two people left on this earth, you wouldn't be free.

One "persons" freedom is another "persons" chains.

[AliceJaneInNewcastle]

I have no problem going out in Thailand but just don't do it in Australia which is similar to the US in the bigotted attitudes that exist.
Interesting. I live in Australia and go out often. There are a diminishing number of people who cause problems. Acceptance is noticeably better than it was even 5 years ago.

In terms of real freedom, a person who presents themselves as a female even if their body is male has as much freedom in Australia as any other person. The risks of being beaten, robbed, etc are on par with any other female in the same circumstances.

From talking to others, I'd say that the USA is almost as free as Australia. I say almost because the general increase in security there due to the perceived threat of terrorism has reduced freedom, and that affects everybody, not just the transgendered.

The best way to improve acceptance and increase freedom for TG people in general is to be out in public, interacting with people. Most of the perceived lack of freedom is a barrier that most of us build in our minds, and it can be difficult to break down that barrier, even if you know that it is imaginary.

Alice

[Eric/a]

If I understand the question right as it refers to the freedom of what we can wear, I wonder if any of us would still enjoy dressing the way women do if nothing they wear were considered to be just for women anymore. Whatever you get excited about wearing, be it lingerie, high heels, dresses, make-up, etc., wasn't it because you saw GGs wearing it in the first place? If it were within the power of President Obama to sign into law, along with all the other stuff he's signed this week, something that said nobody could ever again say it was wrong for guys to wear everything women wear, would the excitement of wearing it still be there? To put it another way, how many of us get excited about wearing what's already OK for us to wear?

[Nicki B]

But - how do you define 'free'??


... I think not since society dictates that men shall not dawn dresses and if they do all will point and laugh,, well to be honest isnt that true anywhere and not just so in America?

Not IME - in the four times I've visited the US (NYC, DC, LV) no one has ever pointed, laughed, or treated me with anything other than respect? So, some areas of the US may be less educated, but it's not always as black as you are painting things..



The best way to improve acceptance and increase freedom for TG people in general is to be out in public, interacting with people. Most of the perceived lack of freedom is a barrier that most of us build in our minds, and it can be difficult to break down that barrier, even if you know that it is imaginary.

Well said, Alice - but this does need repeating, over and over again, until people start to realise that, actually, it's true.. :sad:

[Karren H]

Freedom is relative....

[trannie T]

I have the right to wear whatever I wish.
You have the right to point and laugh.

[battybattybats]

This is a hot one! Yes we have choices, and yes we must live with the choices that we make. If we choose to ignore other peoples feelings and they get hurt, yes they can choose to "get over it". But we will live with the thought that we hurt some one. I know, its "not my problem"; but are you sure about that? Are we not all equal in the eyes of God? Are we not all brothers and sisters? Are we not our brothers keeper?

Well for starters you have freedom of religion, which means you have to consider that some will belive in a godess not a god or in multiple gods or in animist spirits but no gods or in no god-equivalance of any sort too.

As for hurt, there are several kinds of hurt that should be considered.

1. The hurt caused to person A by person B using their own rights in a way A would rather they not use (A's selfish hurt) or

2. the kind where person A is hurt by the interferance of their right by person B overstepping their rights (injustice) and of course

3. the hurt caused to person A when person A's rights are limited by the existence of equal rights of person B (justice).

Some examples of each to make them easier to grok.

1. examples include Goths looking like Goths, Interracial marriage, same-sex marriage, tattoos, body piercing, blue and green worn together, min skirts, women not wearing veils, rock and roll music, comic books etc.

2. includes racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, theft, murder, rape, forced sterilisation or surgical 'normalisation of Intersex children, circumcision of infants etc

3. includes people not being able to rape, murder, assault, steal etc.

All three are felt as genuine emotional hurt. 1 is essential for people to suffer. It has to happen. People must overcome their own pain with this. 2 is an evil that must be stopped as much as possible. 3 is the point where you introduce equality to liberty, where freedoms are only restricted by the mutual obligation of respecting the equal freedom of others ie fairness. It too is a pian that must be borne.

So some hurt is inevitable, neccessary and fair. In fact avoiding or attempting to limit the first and third types of hurt is arguably bad, wrong, harmful to society and contributing to the worst hurt, the second one.


Yes, we are the most 'free' country in the world,

How are you certain of that? I expect some European countries may in fact be far more free. It depends on how you measure freedom and how you define it.


even though some countries may be more tolerant of our particular situation, freedom to choose how we live openly would be wonderful but our choices does carry consequences, and we must live with them.

Indeed. And we must live with the consequences of not choosing too. To choose to fit in means weakening tolerance while to choose to stand out increases vulnerability. If we take personal responsibility for the reactions of others to us then we must take it further and be responsible for what happens to the person who takes our place later, when people are even less tolerant!

If we are not ready to inflict the hurt of justice, the hurt of exposure to difference which all if us should suffer and overcome then by that choice we inflict the far worse hurt of allowing and encouraging injustice!

[Barbara Dugan]

The US might not be perfect in your eyes, but as for civil liberties, It is far ahead of the rest of the world. I have traveled all over the world and have lived in a number of different countries.

Trust me-- enjoy what we have here in the US.

Jodi

totally agree

[Kelsy]

"Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose" Janis Joplin

Kelsy

[Anna the Dub]

The US might not be perfect in your eyes, but as for civil liberties, It is far ahead of the rest of the world. I have traveled all over the world and have lived in a number of different countries.Jodi

Far ahead of the rest of the world? Including Western Europe? There are employment laws here in the UK which will stop me being discriminated against because I am a TS, and a law which allows you to change your birth cert to your correct gender post SRS. I think I am pretty much free here and certainly don't think that civil liberties in EU countries are in any shape or form behind the US.

[Melora]

"LAND OF THE FREE".. America = YES IT IS! As long as you can privotise and make up a corporation and make lotts of $$ and pay off corrupt law makers and lay off lots of LONNNG time employees without pay, While hireing Low cost Illegalls.. While 2 GREAT COPS = Ramose and Compion.. (I think the names are spelled right?), Are imprissioned because they shot an illegal Mexican in the ass while he was smuggling druggs into Our country, and got each 8 years in prisson for doing it AND NOW Just getting some consideration?
Free Country = YES.. IT IS ABOUT THE BEST!!
Think about living IN THE WORST!!
YOU could not even CD with out thinking of Death!
GOD BLESS THE USA!!
Katie

[jillleanne]

There are two common 'rights' for everyone anywhere; the right to pay taxes and the right to die.

[JoAnne Wheeler]

There is NO LAND where crossdressers can be FREE
JoAnne Wheeler

[Kate Simmons]

The really sad thing is that most people don't know how to utilize true freedom once they have it.:straightface:

[Tashee]

Freedom is relative....

I will give the cryptic answer and add to Miss Karen who is wise witty and wonderful.

I am struck with a pretty serious condition. And have served with men who were POW's too.

So is freedom always a land. Such as The USA. Yes in a way its an idea..

But when your freedom is taken from you. By a debilitating health issue or by force. We can say we are no longer free. And rightly so..Or we can dig deep into the Spirit which make Us great and not rely on outside stimuli to effect who and what and why we are.

Yes we are free if our mind believes we are..

[JamieDP]

It is the land of the free, so long as you pay your HOA fees in order to conform to the rest of the neighborhood on property that you own??? A free country yet I may not change my front door from Green to Black without my neighbors approval....

just kidding...it has its ups and its downs...no where is perfect...

[Debutante]

I am a CD living 9 months of the year in Thailand and 3 months in Australia. I have no problem going out in Thailand but just don't do it in Australia which is similar to the US in the bigotted attitudes that exist. In Thailand, transvestism is widely accepted: some schools and universities have introduced TV toilets because of the large numbers of TVs attending those institutions. Even the Girl Guides allow CDs to join - I know because I have seen them (Girl Guys?) Nowhere is perfect but this is way ahead of our "advanced" western countries.

Linda,
Well,I stand corrected! Thailand seems much, much better than the U.S. for CDers... Let's hope the U.S can truly be called "the land of the free" if i can do for Tgs as Thailand has done...

[Debbie new]

Peoples attitudes are changing towards cding, it would be nice if everybody could accept each others choices but unfortunately there will always be a few that mock and sneer. I do wonder if a group of 8 men give me abuse for expressing my femme self, is there one in that group that dresses up or would like to try it, but feels he has too be like his mates.

[Cathytg]

Yes, it is free here. However, that means that you are free to move within certain boundaries. In this case, these are set by the society around you. There are places in the USA (Provincetown, MA, I betcha) where you can dress as you wish, but even there you have to wear something.

But, really, would you want to live in a land where everyone is free to do anything they want? Not me. I am glad that the people down the street - who I do not know - are not free to drive around shooting into houses. Sure, that's extreme, but where, then, would you draw the line?

As was said earlier; I am free to dress and you are free to laugh. However, I would not walk into a cowboy bar in a dress and heels. I think that too many non-free things would occur and none are good for me.

[vjaducd]

yes I understand in america its called land of the free but really? is it?... I think not since society dictates that men shall not dawn dresses and if they do all will point and laugh,, well to be honest isnt that true anywhere and not just so in America?,,, well if you truly are free then dawn the dress and be happy,,, but think of this,,who will you be hurting by doing so,,, wife-kids-family-friends?,,, See my point,, if you dont care and not embarresed then go drag out and be happy but by doing so then you are saying you dont care for anyone else,, the only reason most of us stay hidden is for loved ones and that alone,, if I didnt care what people would do and say to my kid and wife I would get pretty every day and hit the rummage sales thrown by my neibors and chat at the local bar(pub for you over sea folks) and just be merry and to be honest alot happier in my pretty attire other than in my boring old drab,,,, thats why I hide and for that I am blessed.... yup sure sucks that the workld makes us deprived in this way for little by little we are moving into a new time and thank god for that,,,, my son got his ears peirced,,,yup both and in my day that was gay as they would put it,,, glad we are moving foward,,, maybe someday there will be a time when a man can get all dolled up and his girlfriend can say my you look pretty,,lets go out and dance but stay away from other girls because you look hot tonight.... maybe................ :love:It is badly needed the seperate island where only crossdressers rules & whole c/d society can leave to gethere the king & queen both from c/d. comunity where every c/d can move /stay /enjoy the real feminine life

vjaducd

[terri1984]

I totally agree that society has a way to go here in america in accepting crossdressers,ts and tg people, I guess things take time,

[Nicki B]

There are employment laws here in the UK which will stop me being discriminated against because I am a TS, and a law which allows you to change your birth cert to your correct gender post SRS.

In the UK you can change your gender without SRS, if you can prove you live as a woman and have done so for a minimum of two years (although pratically, atm, it's slightly longer).

[MJ]

I'm sorry but your free if you chose to be or you lock yourself in a prison of your own making.
you can't change the world from the comfort of your own closet. how can one change the world views if we all say nothing. and do nothing.

[Anne-Marie]

Yes the US, Britain, much of Europe can be said to be free. This may not be total freedom – this would surely only lead to anarchy. We need the rule of law to preserve the general freedom though those same laws can present as barriers and in some circumstances these can be unjust barriers. Example's of the limitations the law places upon us in Britain is the much overused data protection act which limits the disclosure of information. There are still official secrets the disclosure of which are a criminal offence – even when it's for the public good. But it goes much deeper that that. If in my job as a care coordinator I phone the benefits agency for information to help a client with a claim, unless the client is present they aren't allowed to disclose that information. Same when phoning a client's social landlord to discuss charges made because of an overpayment of benefit. I'm trying to negotiate a payment plan as the client does not have the mental capacity to do this for himself. The landlord is saying sorry we can't discuss this due to data protection. If they get him on the phone to give permission to speak to me he doesn't have capacity to prove who he is - madness (rant over).


But despite all the anomalies when contrasted with Nazi Germany, Stalin's Russia, Hussain's Iraq we are truly free. Its just a matter of relativity.


Oooof! Lots of hopes and dreams masquerading as facts here! Full marks for patriotism, 5/10 for facts.

Got to 100% agree with this (Saying that has made me feel ill :o ) It also seems that those of you who chirped in about the US and civil liberties don't really know your own country. You haven't been all singing all dancing in that area for a good while but you have fallen way way behind the EU in recent years. (Britain would have fallen back there with you but for the constant boot up the rear provided via brussels)


There are two common 'rights' for everyone anywhere; the right to pay taxes and the right to die.

Last time I looked paying tax was an obligation. The right to Die - what about if you are in PVS the Doctors want to turn off the life support but your folks don't agree. What about if because of some torrid illness you want to end it all but need somebody to administer the drug that will do the deed. They cannot do this without commiting a crime. This is how it is in some parts of the 'free' world.


Far ahead of the rest of the world? Including Western Europe? There are employment laws here in the UK which will stop me being discriminated against because I am a TS, and a law which allows you to change your birth cert to your correct gender post SRS. I think I am pretty much free here and certainly don't think that civil liberties in EU countries are in any shape or form behind the US.



In the UK you can change your gender without SRS, if you can prove you live as a woman and have done so for a minimum of two years (although pratically, atm, it's slightly longer).


This has only very recently become the case though and was introduced against an overwhelming swell of distain from the press and some lesser objection from the public.

The reason why it was introduced - Brussels dictated that it had to be so!




The best way to improve acceptance and increase freedom for TG people in general is to be out in public, interacting with people. Most of the perceived lack of freedom is a barrier that most of us build in our minds, and it can be difficult to break down that barrier, even if you know that it is imaginary.

Alice

Agreed. The best way for cross dressing to become acceptable to the public at large is for them to be exposed to it. To see for themselves that CDers are nothing to be feared and for the non CD men to realise that CDers don't in general want to have sex with them etc. Only then can a situation that is seen as deviant become one that is accepted as a sociaital norm.

By the way Alice is that you in the pic? Looking good girl.

That's it, I'm gone. :bye:

[Jodi]

It is the land of the free, so long as you pay your HOA fees in order to conform to the rest of the neighborhood on property that you own??? A free country yet I may not change my front door from Green to Black without my neighbors approval....

just kidding...it has its ups and its downs...no where is perfect...

Jamie, When you bought into that community, you knew the rules or should have known them. You have the freedom to continue to live there or to sell. Noone forced you to buy the home that you bought. It was your choice.

Jodi

[Maryanntv]

ummmm...freedom...??
There`s no 1 word that has so many interpretations as freedom...true freedom means not having any boundaries , no ties, no guilt, no needs, no expectations.....no nothing. As long as we need food and oxygen to survive , we´ll never be free.Do we want to be THAT free ?
umm....heavy...think I´ll have another wine :drink:

[Hali]

Freedom is relative....

Yes freedom is relative, the world societies are a bit afraid of allowing every "freedom" cos it might lead to other things. Here is my take! the more CDs portray themselves in a good light the more we get sympathy from the "non-CD" public and we might get total acceptance in the near future.
Why is getting the co-operation of the non-CDs important? Its important because almost all the movements for recognition of minorities need some backing from the majority. Thanks.

[Cindi Johnson]

In the states we are more free than most other countries, but we have room for improvement. It's difficult to reconcile true freedom with the fact that we incarcerate more of our citizens than does any other country in the world, more even than China or India, whose populations are far greater than ours. If we are so free, how to explain our crammed prisons?

But more to the point (for TG's), our country is becoming less judgmental. Yet complacency is a danger; we must continually press for our rights. Luckily, we proclaim our rights simply by doing what we love: going out into the world dressed as the women we are.

Cindi Johnson

[Nicki B]

This has only very recently become the case though and was introduced against an overwhelming swell of distain from the press and some lesser objection from the public.

The reason why it was introduced - Brussels dictated that it had to be so!

Err - I thought it was introduced because a number of people lobbied long and hard for it? Mainly, but not all, focused around Press For Change (http://www.pfc.org.uk/)?

The one thing they also wanted to get through, but had to give up, was the ability to have a GRC and stay married, because they thought it only affected a few - but that is now proving a hardship to many. That was opposed by organised religious groups.. :sad:


The right to Die - what about if you are in PVS the Doctors want to turn off the life support but your folks don't agree.

In Terri Schiavo's case (http://www.terrisfight.org/) in the US, surely it was the other way around.. :(

[JamieDP]

Jodi -

I am not sure if I interpreted your response correctly. Absolutley I knew the rules when I bought in the community. I am not really complaining...I am not sure if my "just kidding" and "nowhere is perfect" was understood that my original comment was an attempt at humour...not at all a complaint.

If i touched a nerve...sorry or "my bad" :-).

I still say no where is perfect but yet everywhere is perfect!

Free country...without the HOA reference...that is up for debate and can be argued every which way under the sun that it is or isn't and still not everyone will see it the same way. Honestly, I personally take the liberty of enjoying the freedoms i have to be me where, when and how i want to be so long as i am not purposely...and i emphasize purposely...offending the rest of the world. if do so offend, it is not intentional...it is just me being me and excersising the freedoms that have been given to me...

there have been alot of cultures, groups, communities, and so on who have not always been free or been extended the same or equal freedoms as others in this world, and in still goes on today around the globe... so in the end believe me I am happy that i even have the choice to live in a community with an HOA or not, or find a house that I can paint a house door the color I so choose....

choice is a beautiful thing...and until my freedom to choose is taken away or prevented you won't hear a complaint out of me...

so again...my bad sweetie if that didn't come out right!!!

have a happy Monday!!

[Anne-Marie]

Why do I hate it when folks start a post with Err?


Err - I thought it was introduced because a number of people lobbied long and hard for it? Mainly, but not all, focused around

Believe that if you want to hun. If I need to find my source which proves that the reason the lobby - which was initially defeated - got through was EU HQ then I will, just as soon as I can find the time :daydreaming:



In Terri Schiavo's case (http://www.terrisfight.org/) in the US, surely it was the other way around.. :(

But of course there have been cases both ways - just can't be bothered to ref them at the mo, life's just to short (pardon the pun) :love:

That's it, I'm gone (again) :bye:

[battybattybats]

But, really, would you want to live in a land where everyone is free to do anything they want? Not me. I am glad that the people down the street - who I do not know - are not free to drive around shooting into houses. Sure, that's extreme, but where, then, would you draw the line?

Equality of liberty does not equal anarchy. A persons freedom to autonomy or sovereignty of the self means that any contact between two people must involve informed consent to be right.

So any time where your actions may logically and predictably involve that (driving recklessly, shooting into houses etc) your freedom involves a mutual obligation to respecting the freedom of others or you nvalidate your right to your own freedom. Hence an obligation to respect consent.

The mutual respect obligation creates in most cases a natural barrier of right and wrong between peoples freedoms. Hence why the principles of Liberty and Equality led to the conclusions of philosophers that all people had intrinsic rights that brought us to the modern democratic world with it's as yet half-realised principles.

[CrissyBlair]

As Bill Clinton said, "I feel your pain".... hehe just kidding... but serious, it would be nice for things to move faster in our direction, I'm frustrated too. My wife is VERY accepting and has known about me for YEARS (and we occasionally go out) and she STILL gets puzzled about me. IT TAKES TIME.

Most poeple are only tolerant of what the know and understand or taught from others.

Lets just hope if.. and when ... they start burning books, "they" haven't been keeping track of us from this web-site! -just kidding... don't be paranoid! :devil:

It does feel good to have the freedom to meet, gather, and shoot the chit here!

:2c:

[Billijo49504]

I too have beenin many places on this earth, thanks to Uncle Sam. Our country might not be perfect, but it's the best I've seen anywhere else. Just remember, a pistol in your hand, is a lot better than a cop on the phone..BJ

[JOJO44]

Katie, you said:

"Oh, dear, Billijo, please don't start bringing boys' toys onto this site"

My daughter is a pistol packin' mama, so what would I say to her (if I dared bring up this site)?


We all have said our piece on the subject of freedom, and we all believe what we have said (at least I hope we believe that which we say).

Bottom line; if we work towards our goals (freedom) and we apply common sense to our choices and decisions, we hope that, eventually, we will create what we believe to be utopia.

Though utopia for some will probably hell for others.

So, is it possible for everyone to have what they consider a perfect world?:daydreaming:

My world is not perfect, check my bios, but it is what it is and I can only try to improve me and or my situation.

One step at a time.

Love,
Jo

[battybattybats]

Bottom line; if we work towards our goals (freedom) and we apply common sense to our choices and decisions, we hope that, eventually, we will create what we believe to be utopia.

Perfection is a state of constant improvement and not a static state. As such so long as we keep things improving then we are in a state of perfection.


Though utopia for some will probably hell for others.

Only if their utopia requires control over others. But if it involves equality and diversity and liberty then we could easilly have that for everyone pretty quickly and the only ones who do not want that are the ones whose happiness requires forcing others to be like them.

[Kimmie]

America is also the home of the brave. So have fun with it and take a leap of faith. God bless America!!!!!!!

[beenherelongtime]

i get confused when we stray from what the original post is saying. is it a tangent that we go into "freedom". i thought the original post was about hurting others as we out ourselves.

Erica/ you mentioned something i wrote about on another post, that brings up thinking about what we wear. if it were normal attire for us, would we still get the same thrill. this could be a long thread if properly posted.

[Prissy Linda]

I'm sorry but your free if you chose to be or you lock yourself in a prison of your own making.
you can't change the world from the comfort of your own closet. how can one change the world views if we all say nothing. and do nothing.

I agree with MJ, hiding in the closet and waiting for someone else to make the changes won't accomplish much.

[docrobbysherry]

Autiquated moral values, sin, and guilt?

As a country in which over 85% say they r one of the popular religions or another, these 3 things r taught to most of us at an early age!

As long as children r indoctrinated with ideas of how people should live their lives, based on ideas written down 2000 years ago, we shouldn't be surprised that most people think, " Us versus them"!:doh:

This has NOTHING to do with civil liberies! And is probably one reason self-hating CDs exist!:sad:

[battybattybats]

Autiquated moral values, sin, and guilt?

As a country in which over 85% say they r one of the popular religions or another, these 3 things r taught to most of us at an early age!

As long as children r indoctrinated with ideas of how people should live their lives, based on ideas written down 2000 years ago, we shouldn't be surprised that most people think, " Us versus them"!:doh:

This has NOTHING to do with civil liberies! And is probably one reason self-hating CDs exist!:sad:

Not so! As the country includes religions that are pro CDing and not-fussed about CDing as well as some that are anti then freedom of religion which is an essential civil liberties issue is very much pertinent!

Every single religious person who disregards the other religious views on the subject when considering the making of or voting on of laws and how they treat others personally is utterly and absolutely behaving in an unpatriotic unamerican way that goes against the very freedom of religion that allows then to retain and practice their own faith!

Teaching children one faiths rules without teaching them to respect that they live alongside people of other faiths which have other rules flies utterly against living in a free country where each persons civil liberties rely for their justness on respecting those of others!

Making it very much a civil liberties subject! And the more religious a nation the more it is a religious-liberty issue!

The trouble is people are being taught to impose their faiths rules over others of different faiths! That is antireligious liberty.

As for self-hating CDs, the lack of acceptance as one grows is indeed the likely cause of lack of self-acceptance. Much of anti-TG has been from particular groups of particular faiths thats true. However no religion has always been anti-TG in every instance through all their history. Not even the three main Abrahamic ones!

[TeriAnn]

Its just the way people are I guess.There are people that believe "you should always be yourself",who are the same people that hate other people for being themselves.Just beacause they are different.Sometimes freedom seems like it just freedom for some.

I also dont think being yourself makes you selfish and not care about other people.If you have a wife and kid,then thats the situation you put yourself in.If someone chooses to go with someone who is not fully accepting,it is what it is.If you made the bed,theres not much else you can do.If my family would hate me for who I am,I still think "its better to be hated for what you are,then to be loved for what you are not". Its all a personal choice and a way that you look at life.Opinion is just opinion and nobody has the right answer.

If my happiness is going to be seen as selfishness,Im going to be happy anyway.If Im going to be hated for the destiny I choose,I will still follow my destiny.That path is between me and the goddess.Not everybody is the same or desires to be the same.Everything has its opposite for a reason..To give meaning to it.Light is just light without dark.If it was only clear all the time,youd never know what dancing in the rain felt like.I believe our existence is something more than a human being could have a answer to.

I put a BIG Amen to that

[kellycan27]

Well said sister. Well said in deed!

[Teri Jean]

Land of the free, I think Karren is right with it is relative. I for one fought and served to give us the right to be who we want and do the things we like, within the law. The problem is simple there is as many scenerios as there are individuals and that will cause one to question and keyhole to fit their point of view. Not everyone will accept. Keli