Are we doing enough?

[Nigella]

It is not our choice to crossdress that results in us paying this price. It is the choice of those who chose to demonise crossdressers as bad and shameful etc who are responsible for that price we pay.

CDs have existed in all cultures through all time. We have been slandered by lies, ostracised and made to seem like an abberation rather than somethign that has always been that harms no-one.

It is the oppression that is responsible for the hiding, the fear, the shame, the broken marriages, the suicides.

Just as the exact same prices were often paid by other people in the closet, from closeted religious beliefs to homosexuality.

In response to Batty Bats post in the price we pay thread

Whilst I agree that we did not choose to cross dress, the price we pay can only be laid at our own door. Yes crossdressing has been around for a long time and yes the act of crossdressing harms no-one, but the act of hiding does harm someone, beit the individual who "dresses", or those close to the individual.

The portrayal of crossdressing is very much a sterotypical one, but yet again I believe that this is partly due to our own inactions and actions. There have been numerous discussions on the TG spectrum on this forum, and the comment that all is not "black and white" comes up quite often. That being said, the majority of "Joe Public" do not differentiate, they see it as black and white.

Forums like this do wonders for the TG community, but some parts of it do re-inforce the steroetyping. I wonder how many people here realise that a large proportion of what they post is accessable to anyone with web access. You only have just open the home page, not log on and then you can see just what Joe Public sees. It can be quite frightening really.

Other groups who were once "outside" of society have been embraced by society. How, well a mixture of things, a change in the times?, Legislation? the most important one though was for each and everyone to stand up and be counted.

We all, to the best of my knowledge, have the freedom of choice. How we exercise that choice is down to each individual. Some choose to hide, some take the "message" out to society, some choose to just provide the bullet for others to fire, but one thing for sure is:


Things Wont Change Without Our Community Doing Something Other Than Moaning How Hard Done By We Are

[Gabrielle Hermosa]

Forums like this do wonders for the TG community, but some parts of it do re-inforce the steroetyping. I wonder how many people here realise that a large proportion of what they post is accessable to anyone with web access. You only have just open the home page, not log on and then you can see just what Joe Public sees. It can be quite frightening really.

Personally, I think this forum does far more good than harm. Sure there are some cd stereotypical conversations going on in here, but so what? I'd say for the most part, this forum exposes a bunch of people who are just people trying to deal with their feelings, lives and make it in the world.

In terms of "are we doing enough"... I don't know. I have decided that I will make a difference in this world in how people see crossdressers. I will open some minds before my time is up. I'm not sure I will ever be able to do so on a grand scale, but I hope to plant a few seeds in the minds of people I might get to listen to me. If those seeds grow, those people might also do the same to others, etc.

I think the big problem is dealing with the vocal haters out there. They are plenty and they won't stop hating us for not conforming to their views any time soon. I'm not sure what to do about that, aside from making the haters afraid to voice their opinions of hatred because of all the people who accept us as just people - in other words, when the non-haters well outnumber the haters.

I hope more people stumble across this forum. Some of it may be a bit much to some eyes, but the bottom line is we're all just people, period. Instead of gathering to talk about cars, or sports, or government conspiracies about hidden alien space ships in area 51, we happen to gather about our interest in crossdressing. :)

[curse within]

The portrayal of crossdressing is very much a sterotypical one, but yet again I believe that this is partly due to our own inactions and actions. There have been numerous discussions on the TG spectrum on this forum, and the comment that all is not "black and white" comes up quite often. That being said, the majority of "Joe Public" do not differentiate, they see it as black and white.

I can understand that...It is a valid point ......I feel the spectrum is endanger of becoming a whole once again, proving the nay sayers and bible thumpers correct in their therioes.. The public only see's in Black and White as you suggested when many different colors build the spectrum...I understand Batty's point with public perception and keep everything under one Umbrella but I am not sure it is really where it belongs..

I see things in here that I would never invite my wife to witness..It would re open many wounds on how she feared crossdressing..I thought this would be a great place at first to help her understand more , at the same time I don't feel saying that isn't me is helping her understand..

Now I am not suggesting things that are posted here are wrong!! To each your own as far as where you fit in this spectrum I am just finding myself outside of a spectrum that in a name suggested I belong to..

[tamarav]

While I am happy to sit down, or stand, and discuss crossdressing in general terms and in specific terms, I doubt that I would lead most people to this forum for more information. It isn't that I am embarrassed by a lot of what is written about here, it's just that it typically doesn't support the visible crossdresser who will stop and answer questions. To wit, "How many pairs of panties do you own?"

I took 40 minutes the other day while cutting a judge's hair, to explain why I dress and what it makes me feel like and why I feel right doing it. She looked at me and told me that if all the CDs she ran into stopped and took the time to actually talk seriously with their questioners, there would be a lot more acceptence for them (us). she told me she came to me to have her hair cut because she had seen my other cuts and becasue I tended to stand out a bit more than the next hairstylist. So I told her that was one of the reasons I chose this field and dressed openly every day.

So, yes, I think I am doing my part!

[subaru_forster]

As Mahatma Ghandi said, "you must be the change you wish to see in the world."

If you want crossdressers to be respected, be a respectible crossdresser.
If you don't want crossdressing to be viewed as an ailment, don't wish for a cure.
If you don't want to be obliged to remain in the closet, go out and be seen as you are.
Etc.

Just remember to keep your own prejudices of others in mind as well, as sometimes we can all play the part of the oppressor just as well.

Whenever your crossdressing brings you to a moral dilemma, I say the best answer most likely lies somewhere in "if you want crossdressers to be respected, be a respectible crossdresser."

[battybattybats]

I can understand that...It is a valid point ......I feel the spectrum is endanger of becoming a whole once again, proving the nay sayers and bible thumpers correct in their therioes.. The public only see's in Black and White as you suggested when many different colors build the spectrum...I understand Batty's point with public perception and keep everything under one Umbrella but I am not sure it is really where it belongs..

Ah but some people will fit partly or wholly under a stereotype. So reacting against the stereotype might hurt people too. We need to show that we are more than the stereotype true, but not to the point where we sweep the gay and bi CDs under the carpet so the straight ones aren't thought to be gay.


I see things in here that I would never invite my wife to witness..It would re open many wounds on how she feared crossdressing..I thought this would be a great place at first to help her understand more , at the same time I don't feel saying that isn't me is helping her understand..

Ah, but now think about a gay CD and their husband! Almost every discussion here is about wives this, wives that. The gay husband may have very similar problems to your wife.


Now I am not suggesting things that are posted here are wrong!! To each your own as far as where you fit in this spectrum I am just finding myself outside of a spectrum that in a name suggested I belong to..

Outside? How so?

[Karren H]

so what's wrong with living on the fringes of society any way? Personally I find it quite challenging!! If crossdressing became an accepted practice I think it would loose some of its appeal.. Maybe it just me but doing something unique is welll. Unique... Doing something that everyone else does or could do... Zzzzzzzzzzzz.

[curse within]

Ah but some people will fit partly or wholly under a stereotype. So reacting against the stereotype might hurt people too. We need to show that we are more than the stereotype true, but not to the point where we sweep the gay and bi CDs under the carpet so the straight ones aren't thought to be gay.

Yes I agree and that road goes both ways...Yes?....As a closet dresser that is where I will remain....Even if a movment was made to tolerate Crossdressing ....I am only fooling myself to think I would ever stop dressing but I am also fooling myself to think that I would ever find comfort exposing forty years worth of on an itermitten habits.. In other words under an umbrella I would look as if I am confussed because it would not be a daily habit in which was fought for so hard..The public will only look at the headlines ( one (group) who speaks the loudest ) under the same spectrum ,nobody reads the fine print.



Ah, but now think about a gay CD and their husband! Almost every discussion here is about wives this, wives that. The gay husband may have very similar problems to your wife.

That I can agree with as well and should show reasons for labeling ( undersatnding the colors of the spectrum if you will)..



Outside? How so?

Thats easy to answer although I don't truely feel like a female I could relate to the FTM section due to how it is labeled TRANSMASCULINE as this section should have been named TRANSFEMININE... Imagine if you will, being a closet Crossdresser , not many of us speak out or even talk about this issue the percentage is thought to be much higher than what many people think due to what we are CLOSET DRESSERs.
I would also like to say before this is twisted and turned by the few people here who do not agree with me..I don't think I am above ,better or special..I am who I am...I just stumbled into this forum and at much to my surprise with the differances ( levels) for those in or claim to be within the spectrum I fall under.. I know I will never blossum I am maxed , I am exactly what many first told their wives they were.. I am not religious but a believer I don't pass judgement ....To not want something in your life that many feel is so special I have only found grief and hardship over..It is my decision to feel that way and it's not a coin flip you just don't stop even when you don't dress it's there! Sometimes crossdressing is you not you are a crossdresser..I never asked for it ..

Batty ,your a one in a million thanks for the replies..,

[Satrana]

Things Wont Change Without Our Community Doing Something Other Than Moaning How Hard Done By We Are
Yup you got that right. All revolutions go through distinct phases before they get their act together and actually effect change in society. We are still at phase 1 - reaching out and forming a community. At this stage our community is still timid and does not want to rock the apple cart. So we get lots of members talking about respecting others who discriminate against us, winning people over with our niceness etc. It sounds very reassuring on paper but it does not work because niceness does not change prejudices. No matter how nice women, blacks, gays were and played within the rules, it did not change anything.

The other timid response is for the majority to sit back and let the small minority do all the work by being visible and educating the public on an individual level. The problem here is the effect is so small scale that it would take a long, long, long time to bear fruit. It will take a community response to effect change not an individual response.

Sooner or later the CD community will have to grow a backbone and organize itself to be proactive. Only public events and demonstrations will get us the publicity that will force the TG issue into every front room.

[KimberlyS]

While I do not think we are doing enough, it is scary to do more for many of us. Especially those of us with wives and younger kids at home. If I out myself I do not just affect me but affect them. So I do not get out enfemme in the small town that we live in. And when I do get out about in near by towns I am more careful and present a decent feminine image that conceals my male identity. Farther from home and those that know me I do push the boundaries and blur the gender lines. Including more shopping for femme clothing in male mode and openly trying on feminine clothes in the stores.

But that said, I do not pass and I am seen as a guy wearing feminine clothes by many. Especially those I interact with. I have taken time to answer questions. But mostly I feel I am presenting a decent image of a guy out and about in public wearing feminine clothes. I am not making a big deal out of it. When people make me I smile and continue about what I was doing. I have had no problems when out and I am treated well. Yea I have had some disgusted looks and had people yell in the mall, "it is a guy" and other similar things. But I do not run. I just smile and go about what I was doing like I am doing no thing wrong. As I am not doing anything wrong. Most I just get surprised looks when people make me. And after a short adjustment I am just another person or customer to them. Yes I could do more to educate the other people. But I do not feel a strong need to come out to friends and extended family. So I do not. Maybe some day when my kids and wife would not have to suffer from the back flack. For now I am happy most of the time with the femme time I get.

While I agree we need to do more, I understand while many do not. I also think for many CD/TG's they need to start with their own self acceptance. After finding a higher level of self acceptance, being out and being known you are a guy wearing feminine clothes your personal acceptance comes through in your actions and interactions with others. IMHO others acceptance and tolerance starts with yours. If you feel there is something wrong with what you are doing it will show through.

Additionally I have tried contacting a couple of area colleges about making a presentation to a class. I will see where that leads to.



kim

[Shelly Preston]

No we are not doing enough but there are a lot of reasons for this
We don't just affect ourselves by our actions it can be our families too

Lots of employers now have policies which prevent discrimination but that only goes part way to helping
If you work in a red neck dominated industry you will be made very uncomfortable

Some residential area will hurt you first and ask questions later

Getting out and about at specific events can help raise the awareness
It gives people confidence to step out in the mainstream to at least raise the discussion levels as people become more aware of us

More documentaries are helping too

Good luck to those doing there bit however large or small :hugs:

[PETTIKAT]

My boyfriend is a CDer and I love everything about him, including the CDing. We go shopping together & share clothes & swap make up tips etc.

I have 2 teenagers who adore him, but they don't know about his CDing. I dont want to tell them because I am worried how they would react.

I am, however, trying to make them both accepting of all types of people.

The other day I was in a doctors waiting room with my 16 yo daugher. i started reading a well known national Australian womens magazine ( I am from Melb, Australia). There was a full color, 3 page article about a recently married couple. A few monthe before their wedding, the husband told his wife-to-be that he wanted to live as a woman. The wife was upset at first, but decided to accept it. the magazine showed a few happy snaps of them at home, both dressed as women - and even some photos of the man dressed in male clothes when they first met. the article was quite non judgemental.

My daughter was reading over my shoulder and commented 'how unusual - what would make a man do that?'
My answer was 'the man probably has a few extra female hormones, just like female tomboys have a few extra male hormones and prefer to wear masculine clothes.

My daughter just said 'yeah, that makes sense'

Hope I answered her question OK as I was really put on the spot. Any comments?

[KimberlyS]

Pettikat, that is a good way to put it so that others can get a handle on it. It is something that they can relate to.

kim

[vivianann]

Nigella I really appreciate this thread, I agree with what you posted, and I really liked most of the responses to subject, some very valid points. I too feel we need to quit complaining about society and get out there and present ourselves in public dressed how we prefer, if we dress in a way that is not offensive to common decency, and behave in a proper manner when we are crossdressed, then society will eventually come around, however there is not enough of us out there presenting ourselves in public. I do not believe in doing demonstrations, not the answer in my opinion. some of you may disagree and that is your right to. Yes we do need to grow a backbone as Satrana has said. Tamarav is a great example of how to educate the public, and I agree with what she has said and done to help our cause. I too have been out there presenting myself enfemme in society, and it is paying off in a big way for me. As Vivian I am more than welcomed by the peaple who know me before, and after I came out. most of the peaple I came out to are supportive, there were a few who were put off by it in the beginning, but over time they have come to accept and embrace me as Vivian, and now those few have became some of my biggest supporters and defenders of crossdressing, and many of those peaple are religeous. The reason I am gaining support is because I dress well and age appropriate. most of the peaple have even allowed ther children to meet Vivian. Not every one is accepting, but so what, there are peaple out there that still do not like the fact that women wear pants even though pants are made for women as well. Some peaple will never accept... all I have to say is WHO CARES!!, I dont.
I agree we do need to have some positive media exposure, I think that will go along way to help our cause or acceptance. PETTICAT, I like how you explained crossdressing to your daughter, :thumbsup: .

[battybattybats]

Well if most agree we are not doing enough, what more could we do?

We can't rely only on single brave out CDs to educate everyone just by being out so what can those in the closet for whatever reason do to help?

As for demonstartions... why would it not work for us when it did for women, for racial equality, for gays etc? Especially when it was the uprising of TG people that sparked the Gay rights movement off! The rebellion of TG people against anti-TG laws and police brutality that is celebrated every year with those pride marches!

I'm not saying we need them, but we really should be sure they wont work before we rule them out!

[ColleenShivas]

I agree that we are doing not near enough to gain acceptance by the rest of society, but as Shelly says, our actions affect more than ourselves. I am nervous that being out would have a negative affect on my career and therefore my ability to support my family. My wife is even more scared by the possible reaction of friends, by potential violence from strangers, and by public embarrassment by teens in malls.
So unfortunately I rely on others bolder than me to push the cause. And when the opportunity arises, I try to promote the acceptance of all lifestyles that do not infringe on the rights of others.

[Satrana]

So unfortunately I rely on others bolder than me to push the cause.

I am sure most CDs would agree with this statement but imagine this scenario. A peaceful march is organized in your town/city. Many hundreds of CDs show up, some with their partners, and they go marching through the streets. You are too scared to join in but you manage to watch the event.

As hundreds of CDs walk past waving at the crowds who are staring back in disbelief! you see that there is nothing happening. People accept that CDs are allowed to publicize their cause and are stopping to enjoy the spectacle. Ok for sure some are laughing at the sight but so what, the marchers are having a good time.

Would you not feel emboldened by seeing this. Could you not imagine yourself in the middle of this group feeling the comfort from the safety in numbers? Would you not feel confident that you would not be spotted behind your makeup and wig since even you cannot for the life of you discern what these marchers would look like in drab? Maybe the next time the event was held you would feel sufficiently secure to join in?

We are all so isolated and so feel scared and lack power to do anything. The bravery we seek can be found in numbers. Indeed would not attending marches in nearby towns provide a great reason to get out in public and meet others.

[vivianann]

Was the uprising of tg that started the gay rights movement off in Australia? because I dont remember that here in the USA, if it did I would like to know when and where. I do not have anything against demonstrations, I just do not participate in demonstrations, I just dont know if it will work for us, I could be wrong Batty, but only time will tell, However I do like your opinion and what you have said so far in this thread, very thoughtful. And for those of you with families and jobs to protect, I understand you need to put your families first because it would not be fair to your wife and children to lose everything that you have worked for because of crossdressing.

[battybattybats]

Was the uprising of tg that started the gay rights movement off in Australia?

The gay rights movement in Australia was largely sparked by a series of murders of gay people, many of whom were Drag Queens but labeled as Gay at the time, which were suspected to have been comitted by the police.

However the Aus movement was also largely inspired by the American one. Sure there had been earlier Gay Rights movements, there had been a growing one in Germany till the Nazis destroyed it and sent gay lesbian and TG people to the death camps.


because I dont remember that here in the USA, if it did I would like to know when and where.

It sure did!

The first was the Compton Cafeteria Riots! As uncovered in the documentary Screaming Queens (excerpts on youtube!).

Not long after that though was the one that really kickstarted the gay rights movement.

Stonewall!

You can find plenty of information about it. There have been books about it. There has been a movie about it! There have also been plenty of anti TG claims since attempting to erase the TG core at the heart of the event! But TGs were amongst the first to fight back at the police. The law the police were using to close the Stonewall bar was an anti-crossdressing law! But it doesn't take a lot of searching to find the information on the Stonewall Uprising and the TG participants.

Heres some choice bits about this bit of history, though of course details differ between eyewitnesses:

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonewall_riots

The Stonewall riots were a series of spontaneous, violent demonstrations against a police raid that took place in the early morning hours of June 28, 1969 at the Stonewall Inn, in the Greenwich Village neighborhood of New York City. They are frequently cited as the first instance in American history when gays and lesbians fought back against a government-sponsored system that persecuted homosexuals, and they have become the defining event that marked the start of the modern gay rights movement in the United States and around the world.


Early homophile groups in the U.S. sought to prove that gay people could be assimilated into society, and they favored non-confrontational education for homosexuals and heterosexuals alike.


The Stonewall Inn, at the time, was owned by the Mafia.[3][4] It catered to an assortment of patrons, but it was known to be popular with the most marginalized people in the gay community: transvestites, effeminate young men, hustlers, and homeless youth.


Within six months, two gay activist organizations were formed in New York, concentrating on confrontational tactics, and three newspapers were established to promote rights for gays and lesbians. Within a few years, gay rights organizations were founded across the U.S. and the world. On June 28, 1970, the first Gay Pride marches took place in New York City and Los Angeles, commemorating the anniversary of the riots. Similar marches were organized in other cities; today Gay Pride events are held annually throughout the world toward the end of June to mark the Stonewall riots.


The raid did not go as planned. Standard procedure was to line up the patrons, check their identification, and have female police officers take customers dressed as women to the bathroom to verify their sex, upon which any men dressed as women would be arrested. Those dressed as women that night refused to go with the officers. Men in line began to refuse to produce their identification. The police decided to take everyone present to the police station, and separated the transvestites in a room in the back of the bar. Maria (Steve) Ritter recalled, "My biggest fear was that I would get arrested. My second biggest fear was that my picture would be in a newspaper or on a television report in my mother's dress!"[50] Both patrons and police recalled that a sense of discomfort spread very quickly, spurred by police who began to "bully" some of the lesbians by "feeling some of them up inappropriately" while frisking them.[


An officer shoved a transvestite, who responded by hitting him on the head with her purse as the crowd began to boo. Author Edmund White, who had been passing by, recalled, "Everyone's restless, angry and high-spirited. No one has a slogan, no one even has an attitude, but something's brewing."[56] Pennies, then beer bottles, were thrown at the wagon as a rumor spread through the crowd that patrons still inside the bar were being beaten.

A scuffle broke out when a woman in handcuffs was escorted from the door of the bar to the waiting police wagon several times. She escaped repeatedly and fought with four of the police, swearing and shouting, for about ten minutes. Described as "a typical New York butch" and "a dyke—stone butch", she had been hit on the head by an officer with a billy club for, as one witness claimed, complaining that her handcuffs were too tight.[57] Bystanders recalled that the woman, whose identity remains unknown,[note 3] sparked the crowd to fight when she looked at bystanders and shouted, "Why don't you guys do something?" After an officer picked her up and heaved her into the back of the wagon,[58] the crowd became a mob and went "berserk": "It was at that moment that the scene became explosive".[59]



Sylvia (Ray) Rivera, who was in full drag and had been in the Stonewall during the raid, remembered: "You've been treating us like shit all these years? Uh-uh. Now it's our turn!... It was one of the greatest moments in my life."


Thousands of people had gathered in front of the Stonewall, which had opened again, choking Christopher Street until the crowd spilled into adjoining blocks. The throng surrounded buses and cars, harassing the occupants unless they either admitted they were gay or indicated their support for the demonstrators.[80] Sylvia Rivera saw a friend of hers jump on a nearby car trying to drive through; the crowd rocked the car back and forth, terrifying its occupants. Another of Rivera's friends, Marsha (Malcolm) P. Johnson, climbed a lamppost and dropped a heavy bag onto the hood of a police car, shattering the windshield.[81] As on the previous evening, fires were started in garbage cans throughout the neighborhood. More than a hundred police were present from the Fourth, Fifth, Sixth, and Ninth Precincts, but after 2:00 a.m. the TPF arrived again. Kick lines and police chases waxed and waned; when police captured demonstrators, who the majority of witnesses described as "sissies" or "swishes", the crowd surged to recapture them.[82] Street battling ensued again until 4:00 a.m.[81]



I do not have anything against demonstrations, I just do not participate in demonstrations, I just dont know if it will work for us, I could be wrong Batty, but only time will tell, However I do like your opinion and what you have said so far in this thread, very thoughtful.

It could be that the time protests were effective has passed, but I'm not sure that actually is the case. I certainly don't see why they would only work for some communities and not ours.


And for those of you with families and jobs to protect, I understand you need to put your families first because it would not be fair to your wife and children to lose everything that you have worked for because of crossdressing.

Sure. But what if one of the kids or grandkids ends up being TG? Wouldn't they be harmed by not making the world better for TG people?

Thats the trouble, many think of it as at what point do we put ourselves above our family's needs, but we should also consider at what point we're putting our immediate family above our extended famly and communities needs?

Every womens rights campainer had to think not just about their fathers husbands and sons but importantly their mothers and their daughters (and for some their female lovers!) but also every other woman alive and every future generation!

The same for the brave black men and women who risked public torturre and lynching! They too risked harm to their immediate family!

And every man and woman in the military does too!

So we need to consider that we may have a larger obligation.
But even for those who feel they can't come out of the closet there are other ways to help!

You could donate a 10th of your girl-clothes budget to a TG rights group or TG charity!
You could right letters to your senators, congressman, MPs etc calling for them to support TG issues!
You could ensure TG issues play a large part in your voting choices.
You could speak out against anti TG etc views without having to come out as one
You could befriend an out TG even while closeted yourself
You could try to ensure your workplace is TG friendly especially in hiring policies
If your hiring you could advertise the job as available to TGs as well as others.

[Sandra]

My wife is even more scared by the possible reaction of friends, by potential violence from strangers, and by public embarrassment by teens in malls.



I can understand you wife feeling like this. If friends react in a negative way then I'm sorry but were they really friends in the first place? When we told our friends about Nigella, one just doesn't know how to react around her, but is not rude or nasty, and one couple who are our daughters godparents just don't want to know, mostly my belief for thier religous reasons, are we bother hell no like I said if they were real friends then they would have been ok with all of this.

As for going out and violence, we have never had any problems at all, never been approached or any indication of violence at all.

Now to the teens, yep your going to get the sniggers and comments but if you say something 9 times out of 10 they will talk to you about it and just maybe what you say will get through to them and educate them a bit more about the TG community.

IMO it's not just up to the TGs to do something but partners as well. Nigella and I work at the same place, and whilst she is accprted there their are some who still dont' "get it " as they put it, I try to explain and have had many discussions about the TG community and I hope that my little bit has helped.

Sitting behind the curtains is not going to help anyone.

[vivianann]

well said batty, if ever there was a time to protest and riot the 1960's were certainley the time to do it. I was a small child during that time so as a result I did not see that, and never researched what happened with the stonewall riots, I was under the impression it was mostly about the gay rights issue, I am sure it still was. I did not know there was tg peaple there too.
Batty I like your points about those who are still in the closet, or have families to protect, however I understand their position also.
Now that I am out in public with my crossdressing I would like to help others who want to come out of the closet, that is why I have posted my experiences while out. there are many more experiences that I have out enfemme, I just dont have the time to post them all. However I am considering writing a book on my experiences and how to present ourselves when out in public. The one big thing I have learned is you DO NOT have to pass 100% to go out in public, it take confidence, being comfortable in your own skin, and dressing and presenting ones self so as not to be offensive to the public eye. I know there are many more of us out there who can go out enfemme without reprisals from family or jobs, WHERE ARE YOU!!!. Sometimes I feel abandoned by my fellow crosdressers who are now frightened by my being out enfemme as I am. We all need to get the courage to muscle pass our fears so you can experience the freedom to wear the clothes you want like I have.

[ColleenShivas]

I feel justly chastised by several posts here. I DO feel that I should be doing more, but I re-iterate - taking such action is not just my decision. My wife must have a say in it. She has come to accept, even sometimes enjoy, her time with Colleen at home. For this I am grateful, but I must respect her wish not to be seen with Colleen in public. I keep pushing the idea of a trip to a distant town and it is an interesting idea to combine this with a "pride" march.

Perhaps my CDing is a less pressing aspect of my life than it is for many of you. I do what I can for the cause when the opportunity arise, but at least at the moment other aspects of my life (family, career, other community service, and social) prevent me from being more of an activist. As I said in my first answer to the question, I know that I am not doing enough.

[JoAnne Wheeler]

No - we are not doing enough - but the question then becomes - What should we do ? Do we all go out half-cocked in different directions or do we make a joint concerted effort ? I do not know the answer.

JoAnne Wheeler

[Nicki B]

Sooner or later the CD community will have to grow a backbone and organize itself to be proactive. Only public events and demonstrations will get us the publicity that will force the TG issue into every front room.

We will get there when people are uncomfortable enough - right now, too many are content to suffer, hide, bottle themselves up as they are?

But look around at Southern Comfort, Sparkle, Be-All, Fantasia Fair, etc, etc, etc, trans involvement in gay events - people are starting to be seen together, in numbers - and to be taken seriously?

Maybe a step for some would be to get out to such events - and add to the numbers to be counted?

[Carly D.]

so what's wrong with living on the fringes of society any way? Personally I find it quite challenging!! If crossdressing became an accepted practice I think it would loose some of its appeal.. Maybe it just me but doing something unique is welll. Unique... Doing something that everyone else does or could do... Zzzzzzzzzzzz.

Karren hits another one out of the park.. I feel like I would have to do something different.. I don't usually stand out from the crowd.. and when I am wearing something (pantyhose/tights) under my pants I really don't want people to notice me.. it's covert.. I know something that nobody else in the room knows.. and then it hits me.. if I'm wearing pantyhose or tights under my pants, how many other guys are doing the same thing??? hmmmmm

[Nigella]

So one question that comes up is what can I do,

For the answer to this we should turn to Battybattybats:


Don't just wait around hoping for the world to change, be a part of that change. Every little bit counts.

[vivianann]

I was thinking about what what Batty has said about protesting, if we were being harrassed by the police, or other peaple on a regular basis, then a protest is the right thing to do, and in some cases a riot might be the answer.
However from my experience being out, I still do not think riots or demonstrations are the answer, I still believe we need to do more to break the societal taboo of against crossdressing. I am amazed by how many peaple say to me when I am enfemme, I dont see anything wrong with it, we should wear what we want to wear. Like I have said earlier, we need to get the courage to muscle pass our fears and get out so society can see you and when someone approaches you to comment about it, have courage, show confidence, and talk to peaple about why you dress, answer their questions, it will help society to be more accepting, that is what I am doing and it really works, right now there is not enough of us doing this because of fear. I am doing my part and I want to do more to help more of my sisters out there to come out of the closet.
I really enjoy my freedom to dress how I want now, and enjoy the friendships and support I get from peaple who are not part of the crossdressing community.

[battybattybats]

Well it looks like almost everyone willing to post in this thread thinks more should be done.

And a few wish they could go out etc to do more but cannot because they are protecting family etc.

Well come on folks, there is more than one way to improve things!

Lets take just ne thing from the list I put forward before:

You could right letters to your senators, congressman, MPs etc calling for them to support TG issues!


Now is there any reason anyone on this site cannot do that this week? To at least one political representative? You neednt say you yourself are a CD though explaining why you are in the closet could well help gain empathy and understanding from them at the least you could say that in principle you agree with tG people getting equality, fair treatment etc.

Surely writing one single letter is within the capacity of everyone here? Or is there some flaw in it I haven't thought of?

And if you do write a letter, say so in a post in this thread. If you don't let us know why not.

[Emily Anderson]

Batty,

Not all of us are political activists, and many choose to deal with CD'ing within the realms of our real lives, without having to resort to extreme measures.

Emily.

[Kate Simmons]

Put youself in the position of everyone else. Imagine a world in which CDing was the norm and expected and non CDing was frowned upon and looked down upon. All the people want to do is express how they feel inside in an outward way. Sound familiar? Be careful what you wish for. Talk is really cheap in any case and activists, activist wannabes and arm chair warriors are a dime a dozen. The old story about going to the court house to picket with 25-30 others really applies here. You march there and when you get there you turn around and discover you are alone because the others have dropped out for one reason or the other. Such is the nature of this beast and you cannot really blame anyone. This is why the best way to acceptance is an individual one by proving who we are by how we act and what we do.:)

[vivianann]

No - we are not doing enough - but the question then becomes - What should we do ? Do we all go out half-cocked in different directions or do we make a joint concerted effort ? I do not know the answer.

JoAnne Wheeler

I agree with you on this one. We need to plan a day or maybe a week were we have a coming out day or week, or call it crossdressing week, and we need to have this week during the warmer time of the year, that way it will be easier and more practical. I have discovered it is much cooler to wear dresses in the summer than wearing pants. Any suggestions on a coming out week, I would like to hear them. I hope we can come together on this one so we can do it in a way that will be good for us and society at large. Batty I agree we need to do a letter writing campain to our politicians, maybe we need to do it at the same time we have our coming out week, just a thought.
I would also suggest that those outside of the tg community support us by writing letters also, and maybe crossdress for a day to support our cause.
We need to make a concerted effort and have fun while doing it.

[battybattybats]

Batty,

Not all of us are political activists, and many choose to deal with CD'ing within the realms of our real lives, without having to resort to extreme measures.

Emily.

What ever is extreme in what I mentioned? Writing a letter to the representative of you that you elected asking for equality? Thats not extreme. That is how democracy is supposed to work. Since when is democracy extreme? Its not just a right, its not a privilege, its a responsibility. And it's an easy way a closet CD can do something to help if they arent able to be/go out.

Have you not seen the posts about TSs here on this board being told that to be recognised legally they must divorce their wives?

Have you not seen the thread in the media section that African American TG people are vastly more at risk of violence than the rest of us? So much so that if the official figures of numbers of transsexuals in the population is correct then hate-crime is the leading cause of death for African American transwomen?

People who are out can change attitudes in their daily life, but most of us are not out. But we all still have a responsibility to do something and if we want the world to change we must do something to change it!

Now I mentioned a list of things people could do from the closet. Here they are again and I welcome suggestions of others!

You could donate a 10th of your girl-clothes budget to a TG rights group or TG charity!
You could right letters to your senators, congressman, MPs etc calling for them to support TG issues!
You could ensure TG issues play a large part in your voting choices.
You could speak out against anti TG etc views without having to come out as one
You could befriend an out TG even while closeted yourself
You could try to ensure your workplace is TG friendly especially in hiring policies
If your hiring you could advertise the job as available to TGs as well as others.

Now not all of those can be done this week, but surely there is at least one thing that you or anyone else on this forum can do this very week!

If writing a letter to the person you elected to represent you and your issues to inform them of ywhat our issues are and what you want them to do about it isn't your thing then find something that is.

I have a draft for my letter already written.

So, you want change? Start making change!

As for a coming out/crossdressing day... we have people here in both hemispheres so someones going to have cold weather. And indeed writing letters en masse then is a good idea also.

But we can all here start this week :) With a letter or something else. So why not start now?

[Lainie]

Statistically CDs are only a few % of the population (how do we really know that?), and range from TS-in-progress to closet kinkies. So what is it we want others to accept? As for me, I'd love to just go out in a dress and a mustache with friends. But I'm very much afraid to come out to my friends, so all my CD activity is with strangers, or at best a few store owners or fellow travelers I see on the rare occasions when I can get out for a day or half.

Tootsie/Dustin Hoffman, Geraldine/Flip Wilson, &c, are fantasy characters. Almost no one has experience with real CDs in normal life, because we are very rare birds. Gays, at 10% of the population, are common enough that everyone knows several, but a lot of gays don't seem different from straights in casual encounters. Very non-threatening in the actual experience really--only scary to those who think about unwanted sexual encounters; i.e., paranoid straight-lacers.

Encounters with us, on the other hand, are a direct experience of the gender-confusion threat--very troubling to some people. Of course if you really do pass, there is no problem, but I'll never get there.

Gradually it will get better. There is a TS character on a soap opera who is a really obvious genetic male, so a lot of soap watchers are getting the full emotional picture on that unfortunate individual. Exposure creates acceptance.

So just go out and be nice. Talk to people. Don't dress like a **** in public. Enjoy yourself, it's later than you think...

[battybattybats]

Statistically CDs are only a few % of the population (how do we really know that?), and range from TS-in-progress to closet kinkies.

Actually going by Lynn Conway's figures http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/TSprevalence.html


In the United States there are varying estimates of the prevalence of crossdressing. Most conservative estimates are in the range of 2% to 5% of all adult males engage in routine crossdressing (1:50 to 1:20).

conservative estimates! 2% to 5% of all adult males! Do you realise how massive that is? The Australian Aboriginal population is according to wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Aborigines
2.6% of Australia's population

So in fact there may be as many MtF CDs in my country as there are indiginous people!


Gays, at 10% of the population, are common enough that everyone knows several, but a lot of gays don't seem different from straights in casual encounters.

Ah well that 10% is a very disputed number with many saying the figure is in fact a lot closer to only 4%. Again this is from wiki so not the best source but its quick:


Estimates of the incidence of exclusive homosexuality range from >1% to 10% of the population, usually finding there are slightly more gay men than lesbians.[52][53][54]

Estimates of homosexual activity also vary from one country to another. A 1992 study reported that 6.1% of males in Britain had a homosexual experience, while in France that number was 4.1%.[55] According to a 2003 survey, 12% of Norwegians have had homosexual sex.[56] According to a 2008 poll, while only six per cent of Britons define their sexual orientation as homosexual or bisexual, more than twice that number (13 per cent) of Britons have had some form of sexual contact with someone of the same sex.[57]



So if Lynns figures are remotely accurate then there are similar numbers of CDs to Gays! Let that sink in really deeply. There are approximately as many crossdressers as there are gays!


Encounters with us, on the other hand, are a direct experience of the gender-confusion threat--very troubling to some people.

But that was very much the experience of most gay people mere decades ago! People would be extraordinarily paranoid about and hostile to gays! Especially in the early days of AIDS! Yet even being considered plague-carriers of death they have gained this broad general acceptance? How did they do that?


Gradually it will get better. There is a TS character on a soap opera who is a really obvious genetic male, so a lot of soap watchers are getting the full emotional picture on that unfortunate individual. Exposure creates acceptance.

In sufficient numbers. Gays and CDs have gained some degree of public acceptance in the past only to have it stolen from them. Germany is a good example. Before the rise of the Nazis there was a gay-rights movement as well as increasing acceptance of crossdressing and experiments in sex-change operations too. Alas the clinics were burned and many gays and CDs were sent to the death camps wearing pink triangles!

We cant assume victory will be inevitable if we sit around waiting for other people to do it or there just may not be enough to get the job done and the next generation may have to start all the way from scratch again.


So just go out and be nice. Talk to people. Don't dress like a **** in public.

Actually i think people should dress however they want in public. Its been working pretty darn well for us Goths! If we want freedom of clothing expression then we should want freedom of clothing expression!

So then, it seems that while certain stats are hard to find on CDs as well as Gays there very well appears to be quite a lot of us!

[tamarav]

What is it that we are seeking? Why is there a concern that we as CDs aren't being accepted? Is there some larger goal that I cannot see? As some of you put it, if this activity were totally accepted universally, would it be as much fun?

I ask this in all honesty, I do what I do because I love it and have accepted it. (Sort of like the born again Christian that tends to preach to everyone they meet, except I just stand there and do hair)

Is there really a need for us to be universally accepted in society or can we just pick our venue and go with it? I do what I do because I can. Many of you stay hidden because of perceived problems with being out. That is OK. Each of us has a different agenda and being organized may not fit all of our needs.

Did I just completely miss the point of this whole post??? Maybe my jeans are too tight to think about anything else.....

[battybattybats]

What is it that we are seeking? Why is there a concern that we as CDs aren't being accepted? Is there some larger goal that I cannot see? As some of you put it, if this activity were totally accepted universally, would it be as much fun?

Well lets see, by official stats of TSs the leading cause of death for an African American Transsexual is murder. There is an estimated 20% attempted suicide rate for GLBT people because of their feellings of isolation ostracism and often bullying but for transsexuals the successful suicide rate is claimed by some to be over 30% with attempted around 50%.

There are a host of laws around the world that effect us from the anti same-sex marriage laws that require TSs to divorce to get legal recognition, that require sterilisation to get recognition amounting to coerced forced sterlisation, gaps in antidiscrimination legislation such as here in my own state where transsexuals are protected but crossdressers are not yet neither are included in the anti-villification legislation that other groups are protected with, employment discrimination in many countries where if a CD is recognised when at a club etc en femme they could actually be fired from their job!

That enough for starters?


I ask this in all honesty, I do what I do because I love it and have accepted it. (Sort of like the born again Christian that tends to preach to everyone they meet, except I just stand there and do hair)

Is there really a need for us to be universally accepted in society or can we just pick our venue and go with it? I do what I do because I can. Many of you stay hidden because of perceived problems with being out. That is OK. Each of us has a different agenda and being organized may not fit all of our needs.

Did I just completely miss the point of this whole post??? Maybe my jeans are too tight to think about anything else.....

There are a great many very real problems facing enough CDs and TSs that we cannot blithely ignore them even when most of our personal fears are highly exaggerated.

If we are even 1% of the population then the vast vast vast majority of us are deeply closeted with all the mental health issues that suffering in the closet is known to cause.

From the bullying of TG kids in schools to access to equal medical care and on and on there are reasons we can and should try and do something about it. And the success of all the civil rights groups ahead of us shows this can be done. Women, Black people, Gays.. all are still working on their issues but all have made massive progress that we can make too. Especially as the figures say we are just as numerous as gays!

Are we neglecting a responsibility to our fellow TG people? By concentrating on our own lives are we alowing harm to come to others? Are we ignoring that we can make a difference? Are we the lucky ones fiddling like Nero while less fortunate CDs and TSs fill far more than their demographic share of homelessness, unemployment and suffering?

[Satrana]

What is it that we are seeking? Why is there a concern that we as CDs aren't being accepted? Is there some larger goal that I cannot see? As some of you put it, if this activity were totally accepted universally, would it be as much fun?

Is it not the case that since you find yourself have organized your life to allow yourself the luxury of being able to present en femme every day fun? Would it still not be fun if you never had to organize your life to find a specific lifestyle that will accommodate your needs?

And fun is not really the issue here, it is basic human rights and the lessening of the evils of prejudice in our society. The amount of fun an individual has is irrelevant to the goal of universal acceptance.

The CD community has to admit to itself that it is emotionally and psychologically damaged by the isolation and closeted existence that nearly all of us has been forced to endure. This should never have been the case, especially considering we are largely talking about the healthy development of children. We certainly do not need to wallow in self pity but we should also be thoughtful of others and want the next generation to avoid the fate that befell us.

[Michelia]

I wanted to stay out of this because I did not want to discuss all my frustration on this topic. I have tried getting a little more involved locally and somehow it has all been backfiring on me. I have backed off.

Nevertheless, I totally agree with everything Batty has said and as usual, I have the same thoughts, but she has expressed them articulately and clearly.

There is no excuse for not contacting public officials, at the very least. There are those of us who are lucky enough not to work for others or who work for others but are relatively secure - for now. Fine. Whether you are comfortable in your job or not at present, someday you could find yourself at the receiving end of a discriminatory job loss or worse.

The reason why ENDA type legislation does not make it through Congress is because lawmakers have no idea how many of us there are out there. Even less do they realize that most of us are pretty intelligent and VOTE.

There is a little point I would like to add/complement to what Batty has said. As Americans, we are leaders and our acts often are emulated or at least resonate through the rest of the world. This adds to our responsibility. There are so many of us throughout the planet (including here) that have to resort to prostitution because of a lack of employment opportunities. Doing something about employment and healthcare and education discrimination can have far-reaching consequences - more than just here.

[vivianann]

Tamarav I like your outlook on life and what it has offered you, and I agree with you because since I have come out to the world I have been accepted for the most part and I see opportunities ahead of me as Vivian. I use to be scared and hid from the world in my closet. I am sooo glad to have muscled my way past my fears, and now I am free to be Vivian to the world, there is no way I could ever go back into hiding in the closet. I am sure in some parts of the world there is trouble for transgender peaple, however here in the USA we do have the freedom to crossdress, the police dont care how we dress as long as we dont do anything illegal. And when we do go out in public, we need to stay away from high crime area's, and dark alleys or parking lots. Most of all dont do anything stupid, because if you do something stupid you could get hurt or killed.
The reason I would like a coming out week is because I would like to see more of us out there, and if there are more of us out there for society to see they will get use to us and a male in a dress or skirt will be no different than a female in jeans and a shirt. and with that will come more opportunities for all of us.

[kellycan27]

TG here, full time girly girl 27/7.eat,sleep work,shop,party, And ex crusader. For a while i was a gung ho advocate for the transgenderd, transexaul, crossdresser.... whoever. I tried to rally the troops, but found that I got a lot of resistence. Not from the outsiders, but from the insiders. I heard all of the reasons stated above. We want acceptance, but oh no , not me. I can't..because..... It really used to frost my rear. Why can't these people who want so badly to be accepted be willing to work at it?Why are they complaining if they won't do anything? As i got a little older I began to take a more realistic view of the whys. And I discovered that these "reasons" were probably pretty valid. Not everyone is my situation, and not everyone can "do something".
Another thing that I noticed was the division within us. I am not gay.. no way. I am not TG I am this,I am not ts I am this. .. it's ok if you are these things,nothing wrong with that ,but let it be known that I am not like that.
then we have the "fear instillers" (if that's even a word). You know..the ones who can be out, but are scared or embaressed, or ashamed who use "fear" as a way or rationalizing why they can't "do anything" and thus instill fear in others. There are a lot of older people who rely on things that happened in the past or should I say .. the way things were in the past, as how things still are today. If they are in the closet.. how would they know if anything has changed. I am not saying anyone is right or wrong, or trying to lay blame, i am saying thay with all the intenal termoil that is going how can we expect change when we're all running around in different directions trying to reach a common goal? It's not a perfect world, and probably never will be. there will always be an element of danger, and there will aways be fear. If those of us who can "do something"get out there and do it, perhaps others will be influenced enough to try it, and so on and so forth. And just maybe we can show the general public that hey these people aren't so bad. Kind of like AA.. One day at a time ,one case at a time.
As for myself, I found that I just wanted to be Kelly so badly that I couldn't not do something. I took my lumps. I was scared, sH*#less, I fell down, got knocked down,pushed around, and generally abused and finally adopted the attitude that.. they can kill me, but they can't eat me. What i am trying to get across here I guess is that if those of us who can do something... do, it may go a long way in helping those who cannot. If we can lose the labels and act as a single group striving for the same goal we can make some progress. what do we
have to lose?

I know it's not easy, but ya know when I am out and someone makes snide remarks or laughs at me, or ridicules me, or hurts my feelings it doesn't bother me so much anymore. I just go back to my lovely little house with all of my lovely little things. and I sit down ,kick off my shoes,let my hair down tuck my legs under me, and think about lucky Iam and how much I love and enjoy being Kelly.

[beenherelongtime]

maybe i'm too old/insensitive/uncaring/discouraged/ but a thread like this while informative and interesting becomes too long to assimilate, i get a headache when this happens as everyone has a different view of how to handle it. we will never reach a perfect medium because each of our involvements are different. some full time, some parttime, some wanting to make a full transition, some just happy with underdressing, some with makeup, some without. getting too long, signing off.

[Sarah Doepner]

Allow me to add one more thing we can do.

We discuss stereotypes here but they are much different from the stereotypes the general public associates with crossdressing. They think back to Drag Queens and Milton Berl. Worse they think of pedophiles and serial killers. Unless we manage to break that cycle of extreme examples of behaviors that may or may not be associated with crossdressing, we will be misunderstood for a long time to come.

Whenever a negative, or misleading stereotype comes up in the public eye, we need to point out it is incorrect and offer up a more realistic example.

And Batty, I'm working on my letter to the Utah Legislature now. They will not pass bills that protect anyone in the GLBT community from firing or eviction based only on that criteria.

[kellycan27]

Sorry about your headache. So are you saying er should just forget the whole idea?

[kellycan27]

Milton Berle??? How do we go about pointing out a negitive or misleading sterotype? I am not trying to be a smarty pants here, but how better to show a more realistic example than for those of us who can be out there in the community actually be out there so the general public can in fact see that we are not pedophiles, and seriel killers. we need to right there in their face everyday,live work, and exist right beside them.
The Utah legislature won't pass a bill of protection based on what criteria?

[Shayna2008]

As far as people accepting transgendered individuals, I believe education is the most effective way to increase acceptance. Unfortunately teaching basic sex education is still a controversial issue in much of the USA. So there's a very long way before quality education on GLBT issues makes it to the public institutions (in my opinion).

Another alternative is much more exposure via media. Have a transgendered individual on a prime-time show here and there. More documentaries and such are always good too. The media just needs to be sure to portray us in a positive way; that is, us working at plants, banks, stores, etc just like everyone else. I'm tired of hearing about cross-dressing bank robbers, etc.

I think the media is easier to access to spread some education then the school systems or even government is right now.

Maybe this current administration will be useful to us, since they seem to me to want to bring people together, not fractionate us like the last one. This isn't a political ad for anything particular, nor is it bashing anybody. Just an idea for a possible resource.

[TSchapes]

I do think goals are important. And yet I have yet to see a "manifesto" for the entire CD/TG/TS community. It is a bit like herding cats.

I have run into this within our own LGBT Enterprise Resource Group at work. Right now there are a number of gays in our groups (3 different regional groups) but, there is only me (CD) and one other (TS) to represent the "T" in the LGBT. And just between the two of us, we can't seem to agree on what the goals should be. She has more imperative goals such as being covered for specific health care issues related to being TS. For me, I don't want to be fired for being "outed". We have agreed that the EEOC for our company should include language to include gender identity. But it would be nice to see some overall agreed upon goals.

And like others here, I'm frustrated that there are not more of us. In our corporation we have around 5,000 employees. Even at 1% that would mean there are at least 48 other CD/TG/TS within our company maybe more. But here I am and my TS friend holding up things on our own.

I suppose a good first step would be to adopt one of the established groups goals like the "Human Rights Campaign". I don't know, it's a tough fight and I'm getting tired of doing it somewhat alone...

-Tracy

[kellycan27]

Crossdressing bank robbers? Do you really think that a story about someone who disguises himself as a woman in order to rob a bank would shed' a negitive light on actual crossdressers? it was a disguise for heavens sakes. And even if he was in real life a CD'er.... would people actually equate the two. I mean would they see him as a bank robber or crossdresser who robbed a bank? curiouser, and curiouser

[paulaN]

I am trying to do more. On March 7th I am going to be part of the very first Bangor girlsnightoutclub meeting. There are not many tg people way up here in Maine. But we are trying to make our selfs known. I posted about it in the Meeting place part of this forum. I also contacted some to the people that I know that are from Maine and not too far away.

It is the very first meeting so it is hard to say right now just what will transpire. What ever becomes of it I am sure it will be good. Even if it is just to let one closeted sista know that she has a place that she can come and dress and chat with some others like her. That would be a good thing. If any one wants to talk to me about what is going on with this group let me know I will share all I can with you. ttyl PaulaN

[Carin]

Cultural change happens slowly, but attitudes are changing. Stonewall was only 40 years ago (June 1969). If you read the accounts of how terrible it was - and I advocate that you do read up on it, you can see that things have changed drastically.

The rate of change is related to the visibility of the issue. Those of us who do not hide when we go about our daily activities do edge it farther along. The media is slowly starting to catch on. Oprah, Dr. Phil etc. have introduced Transgender to the mainstream media. Parents willing to accept their transgender children do get attention in the media.

The spectrum as a whole is fractionalized. The general public is beginning to understand Trans-Sexuality, because it still fits the binary model. Extending the understanding to the full transgender spectrum will take longer.

A big problem that I see is the absence of a model to help the general populous understand Transgender. The Gender Variance model (http://intraa.tgcrossroads.org/connections/story/?iid=32&aid=812) and the Guide to using the Gender Variance Model (http://www.ifge.org/Article131.phtml) are a good starting ground. I believe that it is sufficient to allow the Transgender community to unite under a common concept and one which can be understood by those outside the transgender community.

[deja true]

Well...even if you're as deeply in the closet as I am, (considering very small, ultra conservative community, necessity of keeping a job, family issues and all the rest of our recognizable, justifiable excuses...), here's a way to help on a large scale without outing yourself at all.

National Centre for Gender Equality, a full time political lobbying organization in D.C. that puts the trans agenda forward on every piece of legislation that may affect us.

http://www.nctequality.org/

Go there, read there, donate there!

[battybattybats]

I do think goals are important. And yet I have yet to see a "manifesto" for the entire CD/TG/TS community. It is a bit like herding cats.

I have run into this within our own LGBT Enterprise Resource Group at work. Right now there are a number of gays in our groups (3 different regional groups) but, there is only me (CD) and one other (TS) to represent the "T" in the LGBT. And just between the two of us, we can't seem to agree on what the goals should be. She has more imperative goals such as being covered for specific health care issues related to being TS. For me, I don't want to be fired for being "outed". We have agreed that the EEOC for our company should include language to include gender identity. But it would be nice to see some overall agreed upon goals.

And like others here, I'm frustrated that there are not more of us. In our corporation we have around 5,000 employees. Even at 1% that would mean there are at least 48 other CD/TG/TS within our company maybe more. But here I am and my TS friend holding up things on our own.

I suppose a good first step would be to adopt one of the established groups goals like the "Human Rights Campaign". I don't know, it's a tough fight and I'm getting tired of doing it somewhat alone...

-Tracy

Hmmm... I suggest looking at other closeted groups that have had some success (such as Gays and Lesbians) for how they managed to get more people to be active.

As for goals, strong job protections could enable more to come out. Health insurance and the like is going to be very important to any TSs in the company (though many estimates of TSs are lower than 1% of population unlike CDs at 1%-10% so there may not be that many other TSs in the company). I suggest the Yogyakarta Principles as a good guide to start with.

It could be well worth looking into contacting other TG-specific organisations (as HRC is not well respected on Transgender issues!) for advice and coordination.

As for my endeavors... well the response back from the Attorney General pretty much just said 'join in the human rights community consultation'. Still no response back from the Health Minister (where I mostly advocated for TS and IS issues) or from the Deputy Prime Minister.

So it looks like first-things-first getting as many people to support a proper bill of rights that will work for TG folk has to be my current main priority (any suggestions???)

[kellycan27]

Personally I still believe that they are going to those those who will succeed and those who won't. I can't see the the general population fully accepting us a group anytime in the near future as long as they are not made to see us as we really are. Sure the media can play a small part in trying to get our messege out there, but so you watch a show, read an article.. what is that going to prove. But what if you live next door, or work side by side, shop,eat,attend events. that's where the real proof will come from. I work with her and she isn't a bad guy. I live next door to him and she doesn't cause problems. She seems nice, and intellegent......The ones who want it heart and soul, the ones who can't stay quiet, the ones who need it the worst way, with every fiber of their being, they will be the ones who who help spread the word and eventually gain acceptance. I truly believe in what I am saying. I would rather die than not be able to be fulfilled. I am not trying to be a hereo, and i am not doing it for you, it's all about Kelly.

Can we all do it? NO
Are there some who don't really want it? YES.

Little by little,step by step,one day at a time. That is what is going to show who and what we are or are not. That is what is going to get more of us accepted. Sitting around complaining and trying to come up with a plan that will encompass an entire, but diverse group, in my opinion is doomed to failure.( in the near future) The bright side.. we'll have something to rant and rave about. LOL

[kellycan27]

After I finished my last reply I went back and read some others. All of these statistics and studys and papers by this Phd, or that Phd. All this information on this group or that group. percentages and numbers and fractions .. I never knew any of this existed, I never thought to research it or use it as a guide to plan my future.
what i do comes from my heart,my desire, my need to live my life as I see fit. I don't care what Joe Blow thinks, or about this statistic or that study. I care about what makes me happy.
If you don't want or feel the need to be accepted....fine.. you're out.
if you have a million reasons why you can't..fine...............you're out
if you are content to stay in the closet.......fine...............you're out.
How many years do you have to accomplish all these goals? rights for the Cd'ers or Tger's. How much time do you have to write your congressmen,or local government. how much time do you have to wait for these changes to occur? maybe you can make things a little better for future cd'ers, but what about you? How is it going to help you here and now?
The harsh reality is that some will make it, a lot will not. if you want it... take it. If you can't i am sorry, If i am wrong tell me, but don't bury me with statsics or studys or excuses. I hope i didn't sugarcoat this too much.

[battybattybats]

Kelly,
Things can drasticly change in just a handful of years. All it takes is enough people putting in effort.

Womens rights took a few generations to go from not being able to vote to full equality under the law, though net quite entirely equality in practice yet.. but the changes in just my lifetime are mind-boggling. And each change improved the lot of women alive at that time.

The rights of African Americans are quite similar. Again within a lifetime drastic improvements have occured.

They did not achieve those changes quietly or meekly or one step at a time bits of house-by-house visibility. They did it with court cases and they did it with rallies and with riots and with political lobbying and with op-eds in newspapers and with visible public acts and words that challenged as wrong the popular opinion of the time. The public side reinforced these things but women had been acting competantly for thousands of years and still people considered them as incompetant. It was only when they got enough women to speak out publicly (and I'm not talking 50% here, it was always still small numbers) that the daily efforts had good effect.

Gays, the same. And WE started the modern Gay Rights movement with Compton and Stonewall, but they kept fighting got organised in large numbers and have won massive improvements in 40 years that have been vastly improving their (and our!) lot.

As for us... Try watching this, don't worry, it's short. Just a television comercial from Argentina for a bank. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEaGbTr8B2o

TG people may well outnumber Gay people. They may make up to 10% of the population... thats such a large group it can swing elections! See this article on why official estimates of TS alone are 30 times lower than the likely actual figures http://takesupspace.wordpress.com/2009/02/28/you-call-those-statistics/

And it's not like we are just starting... the TG rights movement has been going on for years! Decades! Generations! Only the largest group of TG people, us crossdressers, have been mostly lazy cowards letting the drag Queens and Transsexuals do all the hard work while we have been enjoying the removal of laws against crossdressing etc!

We have been collectively a pack of cowards letting others struggle for us, riding their dress-trails!

And all the while the struggle has been ongoing. Overturning discriminatory law after law, city by city, state by state, country by country through the hard work and blood sweat and tears of men and women of courage and conviction and virtue and honour!

We can help them. We can do so substantially even from the safety of our closets! The fight has already benefited us in our lifetimes. So then what are we, people of worth or useless sniveling wretches unworthy of the title of either man or woman or transgender?

You don't have to be out to consider TG issues when you vote. You don't have to be out to donate small change to a TG charity or organisation. You don't have to be out to speak out against transphobia and a host of other things.

Drastic change can come in a single lifetime.

Right now we have crossdressers and TSs in non-fiction tv programs in India and Indonesia (the country with the worlds largest Muslim population) and hosted the most successful talkshow in Pakistan till she got too critical of the regime at the time and it was cancelled and has since moved to India to work in films! We have a Mayor in the USA and we had MPs in New Zealand, in Italy and other countries! We even had a Mafia Boss who was TS for goodness sake!

And right now the biggest celebrity in Japan, whose words are selling millions of products is a crossdresser!
http://www.japannewsreview.com/entertainment/music/20071012page_id=2396
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200903/200903030002.html

So Kelly, we can make a difference, we can make a swift and powerful difference. We can even do so from our positions of hiding simply by supporting those who are already doing the brave work for us!

Now does anyone know of an importer or reliable online store that works in english where I can get some of those adorable Ikko variants of hello kitty mobile phone charms (seriously!) http://lib7.store.yahoo.co.jp/lib/jewelplus/ikko-kitty-3.jpg

There's no benefit to us in trying to change things?

Dondake!

[sometimes_miss]

Are we doing enough.....hmmmmmm. I think that if you ask 100 people, you'll get 100 different answers. There will always be some that are 'out' and on the front lines, and others that can't bring themselves to do that, no matter how much you want us to. Kind of like the girl scouts; some sell thousands of boxes of cookies, some only sell a few to their mom. Or, if you wish a more 'macho' example, some carry the machine gun into battle, others ship the ammunition to the machine gunner. I am not out, and probably will never be. I do my best to 'preach' tolerance when I see people making mean comments about anyone who's 'different' in any way, and I feel that is my part in all of this.

[deja true]

Are we doing enough..... There will always be some that are 'out' and on the front lines, and others that can't bring themselves to do that, no matter how much you want us to. ..

Sadly, Lexi's got the truth of it here...

The vast majority of us are already grown up and involved in lives that we can't change....yet.

We're bound into making a living and supporting ourselves and our families. Nothing can be allowed to interfere with that. So there is a neccesity to being discreet, to being quiet, to not be rockin' the boat in any really public way that might threaten that.

There may come a day for many of us to be out...or at least a lot more out than we can be in our mid-lives. For many here it's already come. The retired, the financially comfortable, who needn't worry about a future of recriminations like job loss or abandonment by supporting families.

But like Lexi and Batty and others say...there's still a way to help, even from the depths of being on the down-low.

Our revolution is going to be led by the young ones, those who can take advantage of the progress that's already been made and start their lives the way they want, and stand up proudly from the get go. The rest of us will be the 'silent majority', watiing and hoping for the big change... and if we're committed, we can be the 'fifth column', the quiet, hidden, but supportive bulk that has funded the revolution and given encouragement to the brave front lines.

[battybattybats]

But like Lexi and Batty and others say...there's still a way to help, even from the depths of being on the down-low.

Our revolution is going to be led by the young ones, those who can take advantage of the progress that's already been made and start their lives the way they want, and stand up proudly from the get go. The rest of us will be the 'silent majority', watiing and hoping for the big change... and if we're committed, we can be the 'fifth column', the quiet, hidden, but supportive bulk that has funded the revolution and given encouragement to the brave front lines.

Absolutely... but we must ensure that our generation keeps the progress past ones have won for us and increases it for the next generation. And those who oppose GLBT rights have been aiming right at the T first and foremost trying to roll back some of the advances that have been made.

So if those of us that are in the closet are to have a positive role we must do something! Speaking out against transphobic comments at work and amongst family is one. But those in the closet should do everything they can to make up for not being out surely?

Yes, we need some to make or transport the ammunition (or girl scout cookies) as well as those on the front line. People can do that by donating money. To transgender accepting shelters for example to help TG victims of abuse and the TG homeless who are usually banned from other shelters. Or to advocacy organisations to do work on our behalf.

Heck many can even go on the frontlines as 'allies' of TG people!

And the rest can still do so very much! We can counter the hate-filled comments on TG youtube videos, on TG news articles on the net, in comments on blogs, in letters to newspapers.

We can write complaints to tv stations that missreport on us, to programs that exploit us and demean us and if that doesn't work to the advertisers who advertise on those programs.

Surely those who are unable or unwilling to educate the world directly by being publicly out should do most if not all of these things that are possible from the closet?

[Hope]

Yup you got that right. All revolutions go through distinct phases before they get their act together and actually effect change in society. We are still at phase 1 - reaching out and forming a community. At this stage our community is still timid and does not want to rock the apple cart. So we get lots of members talking about respecting others who discriminate against us, winning people over with our niceness etc. It sounds very reassuring on paper but it does not work because niceness does not change prejudices. No matter how nice women, blacks, gays were and played within the rules, it did not change anything.

Tell that to MLK. Or Ghandi. Or the Apostle Paul.

One MUST be respectful of others, one MUST be "nice" to others, one MUST work WITH others. If for no other reason, we need their support. You can't shout someone down, or get in their face and expect them to support you, much less be excited about tolerating, much less accepting you and your agenda. Mutual respect and tolerance is what we are after, after all. We are not going to achieve that, by destroying it. You can't MAKE people love you - they have to be seduced.

If the US government's recent foray into Iraq has taught us anything it should have taught us that we can't make friends at the end of a gun.


After I finished my last reply I went back and read some others. All of these statistics and studys and papers by this Phd, or that Phd. All this information on this group or that group. percentages and numbers and fractions .. I never knew any of this existed, I never thought to research it or use it as a guide to plan my future.
what i do comes from my heart,my desire, my need to live my life as I see fit. I don't care what Joe Blow thinks, or about this statistic or that study. I care about what makes me happy.
If you don't want or feel the need to be accepted....fine.. you're out.
if you have a million reasons why you can't..fine...............you're out
if you are content to stay in the closet.......fine...............you're out.
How many years do you have to accomplish all these goals? rights for the Cd'ers or Tger's. How much time do you have to write your congressmen,or local government. how much time do you have to wait for these changes to occur? maybe you can make things a little better for future cd'ers, but what about you? How is it going to help you here and now?
The harsh reality is that some will make it, a lot will not. if you want it... take it. If you can't i am sorry, If i am wrong tell me, but don't bury me with statsics or studys or excuses. I hope i didn't sugarcoat this too much.

Well as long as your mind is made up, and you don't want to be influenced by facts...

I wouldn't be so quick to boot those who see things a little differently than you do. If you are hoping to bring about change, you will need huge amounts of support. You don't get support, by excluding those who, you know, might be motivated to support you.

Every person will be different, and every person will have a different level of commitment to any cause... if we were to boot everyone who was less committed person, we would have a movement of one... which is bound to have all sorts of clout. You want to make a change? Start including people.

[kellycan27]

I did reply to the replys that i got. I got on my soapbox and I agreed with some and disagreed with others. I went on and on about how we should all do our part wether it be from inside or outside the of the closet. A few rants a few raves, a call to arms if you will. when I was finished I read it over,re-read it,corrected my spelling and grammer,sat back and read it again. i left it in edit mode,went back and re-read all of the responses to the original thread.
Then I searched for similar threads from the past. I read the responses. looked at the why we can's and the why we can'ts. I found some very inteligent,well thought out and well written replys.
A lot of the things that have been said in this thread,have also been said in the earlier threads. maybe not word for word, but they have been said. Taking this into account. I began to wonder why.Why, if you have an idea of what you have to do in order to try and accomplish this goal, do the same theads keep re-appearing with basically the same outcome. I am sure that along the way a few lightbulbs have gone off in a few heads, but for the majority it seems to have remained status quo.
And then it dawned on me. Perhaps this forum is a place to discuss theory rather than put it into practice. There are a lot of very intelligent people in here who I can tell have spent a lot of time and energy to research and study this question, but to what end? it's like a couple of doctors discussing a patients health, they know what to do to try and save him, but neither doctor wants to be the one to start so the patient dies. Or one doctor takes the lead, but he needs help, and as a result of not getting that help the patient dies. Everyone wants the opertion to be a success, but nobody wants to lend a hand. then someone says I think I can help him, and the others say oh no you can't do enough on your own it's going to take all of us or most of us, but for some reason or another we can't help you. He's able to help, maybe not totally cure he patient by at least give him some degree of comfort while other options are looked at. He says to his fellow doctors. See, he's a little better, and they say well... you were just lucky.
Anyway, after reading and reading and re-reading I discovered that I am not going to save the world, I am not going to convince anyone who doesn't want to be convinced, so the best I can do is show some that it can be done. I f I can help one or two or three realize their dream. So be it.
I erased my original reply and substituted this one in it's place.

[Satrana]

Tell that to MLK. Or Ghandi. Civil disobedience is not niceness, it is non-violent revolution. It is a public statement that existing prejudices will no longer be tolerated, naming bigots and disobeying unjust rules. Both MLK and Ghandi failed to keep the revolutions peaceful and both were assassinated for their work. Neither's dream of peaceful co-existence and respect has come true. Ghandi's wishes in particular were completely ignored and millions were murdered in the creation of Pakistan and India.


Mutual respect and tolerance is what we are after, after all. We are not going to achieve that, by destroying it. You can't MAKE people love you - they have to be seduced. Please point out a social revolution where a prejudiced against group won equality through seduction. It is not about being loved, it is about morality - acceptance and equality.

I was watching a documentary the other night on the suffragette movement. You may know that they organized large rallies and had confrontations with the police which lead to arrests. Did you know that provoking the police was a deliberate strategy because their arrests, prison sentences and hunger strikes drew public attention to the cause? Did you know the marchers threw rocks through windows and carried hammers to deface property leaving a wake of destruction behind them after every rally? Did you know they resorted to destroying homes of opposition leaders through arson and bombs?

The suffragettes resorted to full blown terrorism in order to win the right to vote, feminine niceness and seduction did nothing for their cause.

If you want to dine at the same table as everyone else there is only one way to do it. You shout loud enough and long enough that it becomes too much of a burden for others to continue ignoring you. They grudgingly acknowledge your existence and invite you to draw up a chair to the table. That is the way the system works and always has done. You earn your right to equality by fighting for it and refusing any compromises that does not deliver full equality.

If you think society will make an exception for CDers then methinks you are not being realistic especially when our cause is considered a joke by laypeople.

[Satrana]

And then it dawned on me. Perhaps this forum is a place to discuss theory rather than put it into practice.

That is because we are in phase 1 of a revolution. Meeting places are formed where the disgruntled can meet and discuss the unfairness and equality and dream of a better future. These forums grow in size and become more confident and vocal and in doing so will attract more militant members. Eventually a core group will organize containing members impatient about just talking that leads to no action. The core group will organize events and rallies, initially modest in scope as they are try to keep the community together. But nice respectful rallies do not produce results either so more forceful action will be called for at which time the community will split apart because of the conflicting strategies.

The difference with CDs though is we mostly lead secretive lives and our forums are in cyberspace rather than face to face so it is questionable whether CDs can ever organize ourselves to produce a viable revolution.

[Hope]

Civil disobedience is not niceness, it is non-violent revolution. It is a public statement that existing prejudices will no longer be tolerated, naming bigots and disobeying unjust rules. Both MLK and Ghandi failed to keep the revolutions peaceful and both were assassinated for their work. Neither's dream of peaceful co-existence and respect has come true. Ghandi's wishes in particular were completely ignored and millions were murdered in the creation of Pakistan and India.

Please point out a social revolution where a prejudiced against group won equality through seduction. It is not about being loved, it is about morality - acceptance and equality.

I was watching a documentary the other night on the suffragette movement. You may know that they organized large rallies and had confrontations with the police which lead to arrests. Did you know that provoking the police was a deliberate strategy because their arrests, prison sentences and hunger strikes drew public attention to the cause? Did you know the marchers threw rocks through windows and carried hammers to deface property leaving a wake of destruction behind them after every rally? Did you know they resorted to destroying homes of opposition leaders through arson and bombs?

The suffragettes resorted to full blown terrorism in order to win the right to vote, feminine niceness and seduction did nothing for their cause.

If you want to dine at the same table as everyone else there is only one way to do it. You shout loud enough and long enough that it becomes too much of a burden for others to continue ignoring you. They grudgingly acknowledge your existence and invite you to draw up a chair to the table. That is the way the system works and always has done. You earn your right to equality by fighting for it and refusing any compromises that does not deliver full equality.

If you think society will make an exception for CDers then methinks you are not being realistic especially when our cause is considered a joke by laypeople.

To be clear - you are actually suggesting we turn to terroism? I had thought that had been your position before, but I wanted to avoid accusing you of it, much the way one avoids comparing others to Adolf...

I think this is going to be a lonely revolution you are planning, and I am fearful that it will be counterproductive to our cause.

[Satrana]

To be clear - you are actually suggesting we turn to terroism? Wow:daydreaming::stirthepot:

Still waiting for your list of successful movements using seduction

[battybattybats]

And then it dawned on me. Perhaps this forum is a place to discuss theory rather than put it into practice. There are a lot of very intelligent people in here who I can tell have spent a lot of time and energy to research and study this question, but to what end?

Well I was involved in fiercely arguing against bigots on all sides of the sex and gender diversity community who tried to drive their personal schisms or agendas into the Australian Human Rights Commissions Sex and Gender Diversity project where instead I argued substantially in favour of dealling with all groups issues. http://www.hreocblog.com/genderdiversity/viewforum.php?f=2
It's report should come soon and we'll see how much of an effect I and others with me had.

I've also got responses to my letters from three important politicians, my local independant who holds some of the balance of power between major parties, a prominant new senator whose partner is transgender and the Attorney General.

To what end? Why the end of removing the cornocopia of discriminatory laws against crossdressers and the rest of Transgender people. That a pretty good and achievable end don't you think?

Edit: While a strong beliver in non-violence myself the violence of the suffragettes: fact.
The violence of the black rights movement: fact.
The violence of the early Transgender rights movement which we stalled but which birthed the modern Gay Rights movement: Fact.

And lets not confuse terrorism: trying to use violence against civilians to push an injustice
with Freedom Fighters: Using violence against an oppressive regime to get justice.

You see violence and illegal acts are acceptable when fighting for liberty and equality.

The French Revolution says so, The American War of Independance says so, the English Civil War says so, the French resistance against Nazi occupation says so.

If not do you care to go back to the divine birthright of nobility because the violence against it was 'terrorism'? If so I have some dusty old family connections which while not making me a crown prince or such certainly would allow family members to claim a few noble titles in several different countries so you might be my serf :) In which case would you mind hard labour on crumbling Scottish and European ruins for the rest of your life with nothing but bread and water till you die?

I don't think so! Thats why my family sided with egalitarianism, with rebellion, with equality for all and why I have plenty of common and even gypsy blood along with that of kings in my veins.

However if you think that it was terrorism by all means go back to feudalism and I'll end up probably better than I am right now!

Otherwise if fighting for freedom is acceptable then even when the oppressors are a democracy it remains acceptable even today.

Just trying other means first before resorting to violence is more idealistic, which is why I prefer it.

Further edit: anyone remember the peaceful Gay Lesbian Bisexual and Transgender Rights movement of the 30's? No? It was in Germany.. the Nazis took over, burnt the first sex-change clinic as one of their very first acts and sent the out people to the death camps with pink triangles pinned to them.

We were amongst the forgotten peoples of the holocaust. Gays and Gypsies and Transvestites...

[Hope]

To what end? Why the end of removing the cornocopia of discriminatory laws against crossdressers and the rest of Transgender people. That a pretty good and achievable end don't you think?

I do. I just don't think it requires, or justifies blowing things up, setting fire to things, or bashing people and things with hammers.


Edit: While a strong beliver in non-violence myself the violence of the suffragettes: fact.
The violence of the black rights movement: fact.
The violence of the early Transgender rights movement which we stalled but which birthed the modern Gay Rights movement: Fact.

And you can add "The Weather Underground" and some of the fringe elements of groups like PETA and Green peace to your list and suggest that there is violence in the eco-rights movement too; we call them ecoterrorists, and most people roll their eyes at their tactics and agenda's

The point is that while violence has, lamentably, been a part of these movements - it is not the violence that achieves positive change. In fact - violence invariably sets these movements back.


And lets not confuse terrorism: trying to use violence against civilians to push an injustice
with Freedom Fighters: Using violence against an oppressive regime to get justice.

You see violence and illegal acts are acceptable when fighting for liberty and equality.

The French Revolution says so, The American War of Independance says so, the English Civil War says so, the French resistance against Nazi occupation says so.

Yeah... the problem with that idea, is that it is a question of perspective, and I am SURE that any of todays (or, for that matter yesterdays) most notorious terrorists would tell you that they are fighting for peace love and freedom. That does not make it OK.

Outside of a legitimate power declaring war on another legitimate power, the use of violence to achieve your goals makes you a terrorist - even if you win and get to record your version of history as the accurate version. Call yourself a "freedom fighter" if that makes you sleep better at night, others have - Brutus, Mao, Castro, and even a host of French philosophers, most of whom died on their own guillotines before all was said and done. This is the club you want to be a part of? Because you want to be able to wear a frilly dress in public? That is cool. You do what you need to. But don't put my name on that movement, and don't think that I will have your back.

[kellycan27]

I wouldn't be so quick to boot those who see things a little differently than you do. If you are hoping to bring about change, you will need huge amounts of support. You don't get support, by excluding those who, you know, might be motivated to support you.

Every person will be different, and every person will have a different level of commitment to any cause... if we were to boot everyone who was less committed person, we would have a movement of one... which is bound to have all sorts of clout. You want to make a change? Start including people.

Love, It's not my place to exclude anyone, and if you go back and re-read what I wrote you will see that I was mentioning the people who for whatever reason have excluded themselves.
including..

The ones who don't care either way
the ones who don't want acceptance as in their particular case it would make no difference .. they prefer to stay in the closet.
The ones who for whatever reason cannot. No right,no wrong.. they just can't.

facts? Batty has come up with a million facts, good information, very informative. What can you do with them, what have you done with them.
I never said that facts were not useful. I said that in my case I had no clue that that information even existed. I merely did what I thought that I had to do in order that I be happy.
I never said that letter writting and protesting and such were not going to work or help gain ground. I am simple saying that if you want to see change in the near enough future as to allow you enjoy it. get out there, change your little bit of heaven. Yes, eventually change will come. How many years are you willing to wait? Why not change your situation as much as you can in the interim? I am with you.not against you. maybe I come on a little stong sometimes, but it is out of frustration at seeing the pain and fear and desire of people who are in many ways like myself, and frustration at knowing that yes one person can make strides, can make a difference, and if that one person can show another person, and that person can show two other people and those two people can show a thousand people. Now we have people working on the outside and people working on the inside. it's a win win, and for those who have the guts and the opportunity to be able to work from the outside receive a bonus. They get to fullfill a part of their dream.

[kellycan27]

That is because we are in phase 1 of a revolution. Meeting places are formed where the disgruntled can meet and discuss the unfairness and equality and dream of a better future. These forums grow in size and become more confident and vocal and in doing so will attract more militant members. Eventually a core group will organize containing members impatient about just talking that leads to no action. The core group will organize events and rallies, initially modest in scope as they are try to keep the community together. But nice respectful rallies do not produce results either so more forceful action will be called for at which time the community will split apart because of the conflicting strategies.

WOO WOO WOO! There you go sweety!

But uh oh.. here comes the disclaimer


The difference with CDs though is we mostly lead secretive lives and our forums are in cyberspace rather than face to face so it is questionable whether CDs can ever organize ourselves to produce a viable revolution.

But CD's are different so maybe it won't work.

It probably won't work if we stay divided. The general public lumps us all together, cd's tg's ts's one big lump of men in dresses. Why not work as a lump, stand together fight together.

[battybattybats]

I do. I just don't think it requires, or justifies blowing things up, setting fire to things, or bashing people and things with hammers.

Prior to stonewall crossdressing got you arrested, often beaten, often raped and often tortured in the name of psychiatric treatment including electroshock therapy.

Post the handbags to policemens heads, smashing police car windows with high heels and barricading the police in the building and then setting fire to it with molotov cocktails crossdressing is legal in most of the 'western' world.

To dissmiss that the riot had anything to do with it means you must show that not only did it not directly lead to change but that it did not indirectly lead to change by inspiring others to fight with less violent means.

Modern Gay Pride marches commemorate the stonewall Riots. The Sydney Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras this weekend also celebrates a protest of defiance against police especially when the police were belived responsible for the murders of several GLBT people.

Now indeed I'm not saying that violence is required, and we may be past that stage in the west already even if it is. Justified? Of course it is justified.

Violence is always justified when it is the only means to secure equal rights. Violence is never justified for any other reason. Even self defence is merely defending you own rights. World War 2 (see the Four Freedoms speech) was significantly justified as about rights.


And you can add "The Weather Underground" and some of the fringe elements of groups like PETA and Green peace to your list and suggest that there is violence in the eco-rights movement too; we call them ecoterrorists, and most people roll their eyes at their tactics and agenda's

Don't forget the sinking of the Rainbow Warrior by the French if your going to involve Greenpeace and terrorism in the discussion, and I wonder at it's alleged violence... unless your counting putting banners on things and almost getting yourself killed in inflatable boats violence then there is not a lot in Greenpeace that I'm aware of, though I could always be wrong.


The point is that while violence has, lamentably, been a part of these movements - it is not the violence that achieves positive change. In fact - violence invariably sets these movements back.

Do you have evidence for that claim? Or are you stating something must be true because you want it to so it fits how you view the world? I myself am very much a pacifist but I cannot ignore the data.


Yeah... the problem with that idea, is that it is a question of perspective, and I am SURE that any of todays (or, for that matter yesterdays) most notorious terrorists would tell you that they are fighting for peace love and freedom. That does not make it OK.

Just cause they claim that is their motive does not mean they can back that claim. As for todays most notorious terrorists WTF are you smoking? Al Qaeda are Wahabists who state very much that peace love and freedom are not on their agenda, they have explicitly condemned notions of human rights equality etc. The Christian Terrorists at Oklahoma, again not after equal rights there. The Aum Sunrikyo Saran Gas attacks in Tokyo... again not about Equal Rights. Can you please find me some of the most Notorious Terrorists of Today who claimed achieving Universal Human Rights as their motive?


Outside of a legitimate power declaring war on another legitimate power, the use of violence to achieve your goals makes you a terrorist - even if you win and get to record your version of history as the accurate version.

Then the USA is illegitimate and the UK's claim to it remains valid! As the War of Independance did not involve two 'legitimate powers'. And the French Republic is also Illegitimate as it overthrew the Legitimate monarchy! And Tsarist Russia too... oh dear oh dear... and the UK needs to ditch the constitution and go back to absolute monarchy because the parliamentarians were also terrorists!

What makes a 'legitimate power'? Consider that please. Does a state derive it's legitimacy from the people? And if so and the people are not equal within the state where is its legitimacy and under what circumstances is it legitimate to overthrow a democracy (like Iraq for example!) and what gives one 'legitimate power' any validity in using violence against another 'legitimate power' that is outside their own jurisdiction?

What exactly makes the violence of the state valid but not that of the individual? And what if the state is using violence against the individual?

Sounds like your arguing from the status quo and not considering the mechanisms of what justifies violence first.


Call yourself a "freedom fighter" if that makes you sleep better at night, others have - Brutus, Mao, Castro, and even a host of French philosophers, most of whom died on their own guillotines before all was said and done.

You forgot all the leaders of the American War of Independance as well as those of the Eureka Stockade because by your definitions all those who fought against tyranny were terrorists while the tyrants were 'legitimate powers'.

See that 'terrorism' was demanding this: In setting its goals, the Ballarat Reform League used the British Chartist movement's principles. The meeting passed a resolution "that it is the inalienable right of every citizen to have a voice in making the laws he is called on to obey, that taxation without representation is tyranny". The meeting also decided to leave open the possibility of secession from the United Kingdom if the situation did not improve.


This is the club you want to be a part of?

Personally I'm a pacifist and like the Ballerat Reform League tried I'm doing things the nice way with words. But I suggest to you that the only justification for any violence from anyone whether individual, group, police or states military is the same as this At the meeting on Bakery Hill an oath of allegiance was sworn: "We swear by the Southern Cross to stand truly by each other and fight to defend our rights and liberties."

Defending Rights and Liberties which to be philosophically and logically justifiable must be equal.


Because you want to be able to wear a frilly dress in public? That is cool. You do what you need to.

Freedom of Expression.. it's a Universal Human Right (see the Yogyakarta Principles!)


But don't put my name on that movement, and don't think that I will have your back.

Has anyone here actually suggested literal acts of violence currently? Mention was made of 'niceness' and meekly requesting equality as oppossed to actively and directly demanding fair and equal treatment which need not be violent at all.

Besides if the main benefit of violence is to raise a legend of people willing to risk the ultimate-their physical safety, with which to inspire others to act in far more ethical and less dangerous ways for the cause (which is what many believe the function of such violence is politically) then we have it and over 40 years old at that first with Compton and then with Stonewall!

In which case we may not need any more violence.

But Hope, what are YOU doing for the rights and liberties of your fellow Transgender people?

I'm not being violent nor calling for it, merely pointing out that it is justifiable morally and ethically when it is the last resort in the service of human rights and I dare you to argue any military or civilian violent action ever from any part of all human history is justifiable that is not for that cause either explicitly or implicitly! (such as every act of self defence is. Sorry but I have you there. QED. Checkmate)

So then, if you reckon that there are non-violent ways of getting results (as I do!) then list those that are possible that you think will work and also which of these you have personally done or contributed to?

I'm actually doing something about it, totally non-violently but not meekly either.


I am simple saying that if you want to see change in the near enough future as to allow you enjoy it. get out there, change your little bit of heaven. Yes, eventually change will come. How many years are you willing to wait?

Why wait? Fighting for change (that's non-violent fighting folks who miss the difference, with words snd courts not fists) need not involve waiting we can do it this week! It'll take however long it takes to succeed, which depends on how many of us are such lazy cowards that writing a letter is too scary or too much work! We needn't all be heroicly out, but anyone who is willing to write a letter to a politician or donate some petty cash to an organisation that is led by those heroes can help from inside the darkest closet!


Why not change your situation as much as you can in the interim?

I am :) But how would you suggest we can do more to do so?


I am with you.not against you. maybe I come on a little stong sometimes, but it is out of frustration at seeing the pain and fear and desire of people who are in many ways like myself, and frustration at knowing that yes one person can make strides, can make a difference, and if that one person can show another person, and that person can show two other people and those two people can show a thousand people. Now we have people working on the outside and people working on the inside. it's a win win, and for those who have the guts and the opportunity to be able to work from the outside receive a bonus. They get to fullfill a part of their dream.

If we rely only on those able to be out it will take far longer. To get real improvement at a decent pace we need the closeted folk to take an active part. Not an outing one but an active one!

Donate to one of the Equality organisations fighting for antidiscrimination provisions who are being currently out-financed by bigots like the not-my-shower liars and their CDs-are-pedophiles hate-ads. With CDs being 1-10% of the population a few dollers each could literaly turn the tide. Same with Gender-Identity and Expression inclusive ENDA which would protect CDs jobs if they accidentally get outed! If we are 10% of the population then our votes could swing many elections!

We have massive power we are not using, even those in the darkest closets we have the power to change the world.

[kellycan27]

If standing around flapping our gums is enough... YES
If not............................................... ............NO