Lies or Deceit

[Nigella]

This is likely to be a contentious thread, please keep it civil, remember everyone is entitled to their opinion.

There is no end of threads and posts regarding the lying surrounding crossdressing. The biggest area is about "not telling the SO" and how this is lying to them.

Well to put the cat amongst the pigeons, I don't believe that the CD'er is lying if they do not tell their SO.

Now before you burst a blood vessel, how can you lie about something that the other person does not know about? If you do not tell you surely are deceiving rather than lying.

To give an untruthful answer is lying, but to give an answer you have to have a question.

[Vicki65]

Technically you're correct, but surely deceit is pretty much the same thing in a trusting relationship?

What if your SO asks you outright if you've been wearing her skirts, and you say "no dear, of course not!" - does it go from deceit to lie at that point? If so, I fail to see the difference. Both are dishonest, and my SO deserves better.

Contentious? You? Never! :D

[ReneeCD]

Nigella.

Semantically, you are correct.

If your SO doesn't already know, then you are deceiving them.

If they come right out and ask you, "Are you a crossdresser?" and you reply, "No". then you are lying.

But I think the two are very similar. Both are ways of being dishonest with your SO. If what you desire is an open, transparent relationship, talk with your spouse/girlfriend/boyfriend about yourself. Believe me, after two failed marriages (I told both of my crossdressing BEFORE we were married), absolute honesty is best. I'm now in a relationship lasting more than three years in which my SO knows ALL about Renee--and likes what she sees! Problems occurred in my marriages because my SOs were NOT honest with me about their real feelings concerning my crossdressing (both felt that they could "change" me). Honesty, even when it hurts, is really the best policy. I'm not talking about cruelty.

Renee

[Di]

:2c: I feel the not telling is deceit....but the byproduct to cover up the crossdressing there often are lies with the intention of maintaining the secret.

[Sandra]

IMHO both cause problems.

[Melinda G]

There is no end of threads and posts regarding the lying surrounding crossdressing. The biggest area is about "not telling the SO" and how this is lying to them.

Lieing is telling someone something that is not true. Period.

For every wife or SO who accepts crossdressing, a dozen do not! Women have plenty of secrets, that they keep from men. That's a fact!
Crossdressing is something that is best kept to ones self. And if you cannot bear the guilt, and have to "come out" to your wife or employer, all the "You go girl"s and the "truth and honesty squad", won't be much comfort when you wind up in divorce court, and lose your home and kids, or wind up unemployed.
Don't take my word for it. Go back and count all the sad stories of those who came out, and wound up divorced! They are right here for all to see. Just do your homework. Want to gamble? Go to Vegas.

There is no need to lie. If your wife asked you if you tried on her skirt. Just say yeah. I wondered what it felt like, and drop it right there. That's not lieing. No need to go into a big song and dance how crossdressing is a huge part of your life, that is more important than her, and you could never give it up, show photos, blah blah blah.

[Sheila]

in my first relationship with a cdr, I asked questions surrounding certain activities but as he said to me "you did not ask if I was a crossdresser" technically he was right I did not use the words " are you a CDR" , but I asked questions around the area

Technically he lied and lied some more

[Holly]

One source I read has this to say about lying by omission...

"One lies by omission by omitting an important fact, deliberately leaving another person with a misconception. Lying by omission includes failures to correct pre-existing misconceptions. A husband may tell his wife he was out at a store, which is true, but lie by omitting the fact that he also visited his mistress, although it is disputable whether or not this is actually a lie. In most cases, the person has not directly denied a truth, but merely omitted some part of what transpired."

The bottom line is that either by omission or by outright misdirection, being less than honest with an SO increases the risk of discord 1000%.

[TerriM]

I told my wife after about 10yrs of marriage, we are married 37yrs now. the biggest relief to me was that I didnt have to lie anymore to her. All the times I would go out and get dressed I would tell her a lie. I was going to a hockey game or going to work and I had really taken off. Now when I go out I tell her Im going out with my friends, she knows what that means. It's not perfect, but it is much better than when I had to lie.

Yours Terri

[Di]

Lieing is telling someone something that is not true. Period.
Don't take my word for it. Go back and count all the sad stories of those who came out, and wound up divorced! They are right here for all to see. Just do your homework. Want to gamble? Go to Vegas.

I do not agree AT all.........from the hundreds of s o's I know....there might be shock at first BUT THE LIES AND DECEIT is what is the hardest thing to get over for them.And unless there are other major problems in the relationship it gets worked out.

[Vicki65]

Melinda, I dont think your argument holds water.

What if your wife came in and found you in full makeup, breastforms, and fully dressed? "Just wondering what it felt like" wont cut it - or if it does, then your wife already knows and doesn't care! (or is a bit dim)

Why not fess up BEFORE you get in so deep you're married with house and kids?

Your angle seems to be deceit is OK if it keeps you out of divorce court?

Sorry, I'm one of the 'truth and honesty' squad, and KNOW 100% that my wife is completely truthful and honest with me. I'm glad about that because I'd hate to be in the cynical position of thinking 'all women hide things from you' as you seem to be suggesting.

[Sandra]

I do not agree AT all.........from the hundreds of s o's I know....there might be shock at first BUT THE LIES AND DECEIT is what is the hardest thing to get over for them.And unless there are other major problems in the relationship it gets worked out.

This is true Di.

I've said this before and I'll say it again it's not the cding but the lies and deceit that cause the most problems. But for some lying and deceiving seem to be second nature, it's as if they get a thrill out of it.

[onowic]

Since I did not crossdress before we were married, and was fully honest and upfront with my SO as much as she would let me during these initial stages of this process, I can say I have been totally honest with her about it.

That being said, we have a very strong and committed relationship and she is normally a very understanding and quite liberal person. However it has caused a level of discord between us that has quite frankly never occurred before and we even had a major fight/discussion Monday night about it. In the process a lot of other things came out, as they tend to do in conversations of that nature. In the end it was a healthy conversation and we are the better for it. But I also believe we are somewhat exceptional in our level of communication, acceptance and commitment to each other and while this latest turn of events is testing that theory so far it has only been reaffirmed.

I have read many life stories and most of them involve anguish, heartbreak and divorce. The state of divorce and child custody in our country today, where the wife/mother can reasonably expect to be treated favorably and has the most leverage when it comes to financial matters and child custody, and the husband/father almost always ends up on the losing side. In the case of a CDer the CDer is garaunteed to lose in any court. This effectively means men are the ones that are held hostage in today's modern marriages. Assuming they value their children of course.

To simply say that a CDer is lying or being deceitful to their SO by hiding their CDing greatly oversimplifies a serious decision with even more serious consequences. The simple corallary to the "lie" is that the CDer is protecting their status and relationship within the family while coping with their personal needs and the needs of the SO and family, a both neccessary and honorable thing to do and usually a very difficult and stressful task.

Again, I am totally honest and upfront with my SO, as much as she will let me. Having no information on other peoples relationships with their SOs and the beliefs and personalities of their SOs, I defer to the CDers more intimate knowledge of their SO in their own decision making process and support them in their difficult task if they decide to maintain their subterfuge.

[cindym5_04]

After I dated this one woman who while we were together figured it out and flat out asked "are you a crossdresser?", I figured that honesty would be the best policy. My next girlfriend already knew (her roomie was a cd and she met me when I came over and "dressed" for dinner as a show of support of the roomie coming out to her) when we got together. The woman who is now my wife, had been a friend of mine for many years, but didn't know. As we started to get closer to each other, but before we actually dated, I came out to her. She thought it was kind of hot (I think she's past that now though :sad:). I just figured it'd be more fair to whoever I'm with for them to know as well as less stress to me to have to try and cover up anything.

[JulieK1980]

I really wish that more Crossdressers would stop trying to make up excuses for why its ok to not tell your so about it. Ultimately its why we carry the stigma of being selfish. Quite frankly its never ok to lie to your spouse period end of story. People can argue about it all day long, but in the end its a lie, and its a BIG lie at that. The only real solution to a problem is honesty. Arguing the semantics of definition between deceit and lies is a pointless argument. I doubt many wives would be comforted by pointing out the websters dictionary definition of it. I guess its a generational difference, as it seems more people my age and younger tell our partners in the dating stage, but that doesn't excuse the older people who are married for 30+ years and don't tell their partner.

Think of it like this, if you never asked your wife if she was faithfull, and you found out she was cheating on you. Would you be comforted that she never outright lied about it.

So remember its ok and you can't be mad. She didn't lie she decieved you.

Sorry but this particular topic just irritates the crap out of me.:Angry3:

[Rachaelb64]

To lie is to deceive. To deceive is to lie.

You can not lie without deceiving.

Half truths, white lies, call them what you like, we all do them.

However, something as important as being a crossdresser, you shouldn't lie about.

:2c:

[onowic]

Think of it like this, if you never asked your wife if she was faithfull, and you found out she was cheating on you. Would you be comforted that she never outright lied about it.

So remember its ok and you can't be mad. She didn't lie she decieved you.

Sorry but this particular topic just irritates the crap out of me.:Angry3:

That makes sense if you correlate CDing with cheating, which doesn't make any sense to me. And yet adultery is far more likely to get a pass from society than CDing, go figure.

I hear your points that, all things being equal, a lie is a lie. But all things are not equal and there being so much at stake, I don't see how anyone can make judgements about someone else's decision regarding CDing and their relationship.

And as far as the inherent subterfuge felt neccessary by some giving all CDers a bad name, any given CDer is far more likely to get understanding and support from coming out at work then coming out to friends and family, and yet how many of you who have told your SOs are out at work? And if you are in the closet at your work for your SOs benefit, isn't that just another excuse against the "Out and Proud" line of thinking?

[PheonaP]

Which ever words you care to use, be it LIES or DECEIT, both words can be embraced in one other word - DISHONESTY.
DISHONESTY in any relationship is like a timebomb. Just when you least expect it, it will explode in your face and YOU WILL GET HURT.
Unfortunately, in most cases, lots of other people get caught in the blast and aftershock and they get hurt too.

[Tess]

Lieing is telling someone something that is not true. Period.

For every wife or SO who accepts crossdressing, a dozen do not! Women have plenty of secrets, that they keep from men. That's a fact!
Crossdressing is something that is best kept to ones self. And if you cannot bear the guilt, and have to "come out" to your wife or employer, all the "You go girl"s and the "truth and honesty squad", won't be much comfort when you wind up in divorce court, and lose your home and kids, or wind up unemployed.
Don't take my word for it. Go back and count all the sad stories of those who came out, and wound up divorced! They are right here for all to see. Just do your homework. Want to gamble? Go to Vegas.

There is no need to lie. If your wife asked you if you tried on her skirt. Just say yeah. I wondered what it felt like, and drop it right there. That's not lieing. No need to go into a big song and dance how crossdressing is a huge part of your life, that is more important than her, and you could never give it up, show photos, blah blah blah.

The voice of sanity...I couldn't agree more!

[windycissy]

For every wife or SO who accepts crossdressing, a dozen do not! Women have plenty of secrets, that they keep from men. That's a fact! Crossdressing is something that is best kept to ones self. And if you cannot bear the guilt, and have to "come out" to your wife or employer, all the "You go girl"s and the "truth and honesty squad", won't be much comfort when you wind up in divorce court, and lose your home and kids, or wind up unemployed. Don't take my word for it. Go back and count all the sad stories of those who came out, and wound up divorced! They are right here for all to see. Just do your homework. Want to gamble? Go to Vegas.


Amen! I have no quarrel with those who have told their SO's about their crossdressing, indeed I respect and admire them...where we part company is in the obsessive need of some to goad others into living up to their high standards, blithely oblivious to the potential for irreversible harm to real human beings and families. It's one thing if you actually know the people in their lives, but to preach to strangers about such an intimate decision is baffling to me.

[abundantly_me]

I think the subject brought up, not telling one's SO would definitely fall into this category.


Sins of OMISSION

it is in what we fail to do that we become the 'sinner', and if you fail to do the right thing, does that make you any better of a person for being that way?

Just a thought - and ps sorry, those 12 years of going to a Catholic school just makes me want to say this.

[Nigella]

Please do not take this thread into a discussion on whether you should tell or not. It is not discuss the merits of either argument. This thread is about the technicality of deceit or lies. It could be about any "secret", however, as this is a TG site, it seemed logical to use telling an SO as an example.

If you want to discuss the merits of sharing your other life or not, please start a new thread. Thank You

[onowic]

I couldn't agree more that young people today have less to fear and more to expect from their SOs. My SO and I had a discussion along these lines, that we are a younger generation, inherently more liberal and accepting of transgender people, and while I understand how it can hurt and be confusing there is no good reason for me not to be open about it with her.

HOWEVER because CDing is still looked down on by society in general, if not in the extreme, I am required to remain in the closet, per HER request, both for work, extended family, and our friends. I also have to hide it from the children, lest they "let it slip".

But we have a lot of conservative friends of our generation that their SOs would absolutely flip out if their husbands were CDers and came out to them. Those are the same people my wife would be concerned about if they found out I was doing it.

No one here has the moral authority to push someone else to out themselves to their SOs, ESPECIALLY considering the damage it could do to their relationship. The individual concerned is the best person to make that call.

[Kelli Michelle]

Lying or deceit...doesn't matter. Like others have said, they imply dishonesty and both have a negative connotations. Specifically, deceit implies "imposing a false belief that causes, ignorance, bewilderment, or helplessness." Is that really that much better than "lying"?

Note, I am not casting stones at anyone who is either deceitful or lying about their cding. Clearly, while I believe, personally, that honesty is the best policy, I know how difficult it can be to be honest about this to your wife, s.o, or family and friends.

[Beth-Lock]

Is keeping a secret lying? Well, maybe that depends on the transaction the person is entering into. If straight women did not lie about all manner of things, big and small, when entering a relationship, the world would certainly be a different place than it is now. (Would using makeup be considered as lying?)
The question of concealing something to do with gender identity, would, if it is considered a lie, mean that presenting oneself as one gender, yet having some 'legal defect' or qualification concealed yet present in it, is a violation of the implied statement you make by presenting yourself as implicitly straight. Does this mean you have to present yourself so what you see is what you get?
The traditional cure for this is getting to know someone really well before you get involved much with them, but today, we are in such a hurry and think we know better anyway. Haste not only makes waste but offers a protection or shelter for the lies of others. That way we act as enablers, perhaps in some sort of co-dependency.

[onowic]

Taking CDing out of it, you still can't say all withhodling of information is deceit and therefore bad. I worked with a special needs little girl (kindergarden) with a genetic disease that she would absolutely die from before she reached the third grade and noone ever told her she was going to die young, it would have been cruel to do so.

In the real world with all it's complicating variables and factors, each unique to the individual circumstance, it is logially impossible for the policy of truth to always be the best policy.

[Sheila]

Sorry but I believe withholding such a huge part of yourself you are lying ......... be it by omission or avoidance .............. if you do not tell your partner something that can have such a huge impact on your relationship once discovered or revealed years later, that it is dishonesty in my book .... rightly or wrongly it is the way I view it

[trisha59]

There is a difference. To illustrate in a very basic way:
If carry around a Porsche key chain to make people believe I own a Porsche. This would be a deception.
If they ask me if I own a Porsche And I said yes. This would be a lie.
Now is either one a lesser sin. I guess it depends on the deception and lie. Sorry if this isn't much help

[JoAnne Wheeler]

Are you the speech writer for Bill Clinton ??? It is still being less than HONEST.

JoAnne Wheeler

[JulieK1980]

That makes sense if you correlate CDing with cheating, which doesn't make any sense to me. And yet adultery is far more likely to get a pass from society than CDing, go figure.

I hear your points that, all things being equal, a lie is a lie. But all things are not equal and there being so much at stake, I don't see how anyone can make judgements about someone else's decision regarding CDing and their relationship.

And as far as the inherent subterfuge felt neccessary by some giving all CDers a bad name, any given CDer is far more likely to get understanding and support from coming out at work then coming out to friends and family, and yet how many of you who have told your SOs are out at work? And if you are in the closet at your work for your SOs benefit, isn't that just another excuse against the "Out and Proud" line of thinking?

You can insert whatever life altering lie or deception you want in place of infidelity, but irregardless the people you are "protecting" are being led to believe you are someone you are not. As for the at work, or at home coming out. Quite frankly your significant other needs to know because they MARRIED you. Telling your coworkers, unless you are planning to go to work dressed isn't a priority. But not telling the person who loves you (at least the part of you they actually know) is as a betrayal of vows and trust. I don't see how I could even compare my wife to a co-worker, in the same category. Now I do understand their is a generation gap, and being in my late 20's means I grew up in a different time, but a lie is a lie. People say they don't hurt the ones they love by not telling them, really DID hurt them when they agreed to marry them, and weren't honest then. As for telling them years into a marriage, well thankfully I had enough forethought not to put myself in that position, so I can not judge or relate.:2c:

Now as to the topic of the thread, (which I misinterpreted.) I don't think there is a difference between deceit and a lie, they are both detrimental either in the short term or the long term. :)

[Vicki65]

To answer the original question now it's been clarified, IMO, deceit becomes a lie once you are questioned about your deceit and deny it.

That's a bit simplistic though.

Many many years ago, when married to a previous partner, I had an affair. I didn't own up, and she didn't know, therfore it was just deceit, which according to another thread today 'is kind of ok'.

Suspicions were aroused once or twice, which I denied, so now I was in the realm of lying. Then my ex wife found out...

I have never seen someone so totally destroyed, and now, 12 years down the line I still lie awake some nights hating myself for what I did.

Wouldn't your SO finding out for sure about your CDing after you lying to her for years (denying it when questioned) have a similar impact on the trust in your relationship? (Sorry for straying off topic)

BTW, I'm a changed man, and as you know from other threads, I would never lie, or withold secrets from my current partner because I've lived through the mess and pain it causes.

[Jacqui]

Reading through this thread, I am amazed at all of the honest, deceitless people who have no secrets at all with their SO's on any subject whatsoever.

If everyone was as honest as they claimed, the world would be such a lovely place. My question is, why would you want to limit all of this beautiful honesty to your wives or SO's. Why don't you all go out right now and tell everyone? Your family, your friends, your employers/employees? What do you have to lose? Is it ok if you are honest to your wife but a fraud to the rest of the world?

Lies, deceit, dishonesty, sins of omission....what other negative aspersions do you want to throw at us?

Here's a question: How many of you who told your SO's either before the relationship or after, that not only do you like to wear women's clothing, but sometime in the future, you hope to change your sex to female? Or, you've always wished that you were born a woman? And quite frankly, when you made love to her, you imagined yourself as the woman?

To those who answer: "Ooooh, I did, because I'm so honest!," I would just like to know what your SO's reaction was.

Thanks,
Jacqui

[JulieK1980]

Reading through this thread, I am amazed at all of the honest, deceitless people who have no secrets at all with their SO's on any subject whatsoever.

If everyone was as honest as they claimed, the world would be such a lovely place. My question is, why would you want to limit all of this beautiful honesty to your wives or SO's. Why don't you all go out right now and tell everyone? Your family, your friends, your employers/employees? What do you have to lose? Is it ok if you are honest to your wife but a fraud to the rest of the world?

Lies, deceit, dishonesty, sins of omission....what other negative aspersions do you want to throw at us?

Here's a question: How many of you who told your SO's either before the relationship or after, that not only do you like to wear women's clothing, but sometime in the future, you hope to change your sex to female? Or, you've always wished that you were born a woman? And quite frankly, when you made love to her, you imagined yourself as the woman?

To those who answer: "Ooooh, I did, because I'm so honest!," I would just like to know what your SO's reaction was.

Thanks,
Jacqui

I didn't tell my wife any of those things. Simply because I don't plan on transitioning. Sorry your argument falls flat, telling your family and work is different than you WIFE Last I checked I'm not intimate with my boss. No comparison. As for my kids, when they are a little older I will tell them. Of course I don't have the same morals as you do. If you are going to be intimate with someone, they NEED to know who YOU are. Period. If you trust someone enough to sleep with them, then you should trust them enough to tell them who you are. Sorry in this modern day and age not telling your significant other really is inexcusable. This is not 1955 its 2009 the world is different, but a lot of people here wouldn't know, because they are to busy hiding in their closet to know. Again just my opinion on it. If your ok with living a lie well good for you.

[TGMarla]

It seems that everyone here is correct when counting technicalities. Sure, not telling one's SO in deceiving. Such situations are also referred to as 'lies of omission'. So call it what you will, it is what it is.

There can be no doubt that honesty is the best policy, but there is a long sad line of failed relationships due to crossdressing. Others, thankfully, have survived it. Some, a few, have even thrived with it. But it's real easy for someone who is or who has an accepting SO to sit on high and preach to others that they should disclose this to their wives or girlfriends when they are not in that person's situation. Sometimes one has little choice but to keep this to oneself. This is not for others to judge.

It's too bad that it has to be this way, but we should remember that all situations are different, and that fear of the loss of a loved one is a powerful argument as well.

[Jacqui]

I didn't tell my wife any of those things. Simply because I don't plan on transitioning. Sorry your argument falls flat, telling your family and work is different than you WIFE Last I checked I'm not intimate with my boss. No comparison. As for my kids, when they are a little older I will tell them. Of course I don't have the same morals as you do. If you are going to be intimate with someone, they NEED to know who YOU are. Period. If you trust someone enough to sleep with them, then you should trust them enough to tell them who you are. Sorry in this modern day and age not telling your significant other really is inexcusable. This is not 1955 its 2009 the world is different, but a lot of people here wouldn't know, because they are to busy hiding in their closet to know. Again just my opinion on it. If your ok with living a lie well good for you.

Jody, here's some news for you. Whether or not you are intimate doesn't hide the fact that you are deceitful to those in your family, those who employ you and pay your salary, and those you have pretentious friendships with. How many of them would drop you like the plague if they only knew your little secret. As for your children, isn't it the same thing? Aren't you emotionally close with them? The longer you wait, Jodi, the more you have deceived them. The father they thought they knew and loved was living a lie all the while. Will they be devastated when they find out? Or do you think that their minds will be so wide open that they will wholeheartedly accept the fact that Daddy likes to present himself as a woman? And will you put them at risk from ridicule if word slips out? At what age will you wait before you tell them? Or have you not decided that yet?

It's very nice to be able to write one's set of rules and then to tell others it is the only way to live. It shows a tremendous "understanding" on your part. Put everyone in the same box and then lecture them on what works for you.
Do you go about insulting people who happened to have been born prior to you? I'm hoping you have some respect for your parents who might have been born in those terrible, terrible 1950's, or even worse, the '60's.

Do you know that for many of us OLDer CD's, the urges grow with age rather than abate. How you feel now is not how you'll feel when you reach the ripe old age of 32. And then 42... and then 52. Start your own thread and find out if this is true. Perhaps when you reach 40, you will regret that you didn't transition. And then you will be faced with the prospect of tellling your wife that CD'ing doesn't cut it anymore. Be careful she doesn't come back at you and ask why you didn't tell her that at the time you got married. Only time will tell.

It's amazing that your youth hides Experience and at the same time gives you a cloak of morals that only applies to you and nobody else. I do not mean to flame you, but for you to sit there in your own circumstances and pass judgment on anybody is like living in a glass house.

Be careful because one little pebble is all it takes.

I will not further my comments here, so feel free to get in the last words.
You will have to live with them, not I.

Jacqui

[trisha11]

I disagree.
I think that any sort of secret rather it be about crossdressing or about smoking or drinking or what ever is a lie, not only to yourself but to others. I understand your point but I wish that I could be more truthful about my crossdressing. I feel that telling the truth about your crossdressing with your SO is the best approach. I have learned this the hard way......I am now divorced after my Exwife round out....I have since come out to my new SO and thankfully she has accepted. I just believe what my parents use to tell me as a kid, the truth know matter how difficult and hard it may be is the best approach.
trisha

[StephanieH]

Not being judgemental here, but the point of the original post seems to be, "I'm not lying, I'm just not telling the truth." It's wordplay. Omission of information, when it's important to your wife or SO is living a lie, not just telling one. This is a path to being alone in the long run.

Take care and God bless. :)

[Suzy Harrison]

Mmmm - It's like saying it's okay to murder someone if the body is never found.

[Melinda G]

You want to talk about honest! I've been single for 29 years now, and I have a lot of single friends, male and female. And I've seen a lot of them get married and divorced over the years. And I've lost count of all the guys who married seemingly nice women, only to find out they were in debt up to their eyeballs, or had a kid in prison, or had a drug habit, or were bi-polar, or mentally unstable. All of which was carefully concealed until after the wedding. So all you truth and honesty folks go ahead and do what you think is best. You are the ones who have to live with the consequences of your decisions. And I'll do likewise! Live your life anyway you want, and don't tell me how to live mine!

[KimberlyS]

Nigella I agree with your difference of a lie and deceit. And often there can be a fine line between the two. But it does not matter if it is a lie or a deceit they will most of the time be treated the same within a relationship by the other partner as both are not truthful. Neither leads to good open communication within a relationship.

[DonnaT]

Well, there's out and out lying, in your face, and then there's deceit (lying by omission).

Both are dishonest, but not necessarily equally ranking in "sin".

What if your partner wasn't as good at sex as a previous partner, would you tell them?

Probably not. Is that wrong? Not in my opinion.

If one does not tell their partner they like to crossdress, and it saves both of them the pain and heartache many have discussed on these boards, I'm not going to judge them by calling them liars.

Total honesty is not always the best policy. I wish it were, but some people just can't handle the truth.

And let's not forget that many, myself included, did not tell their partner before marriage simply because it was never an issue.

When I met my future wife, all the time we dated, CDing never entered my mind. And I never had any guilt over CDing before that.

So, if I never thought about it before proposing who was being deceived?

And some believe that marriage will "cure" them. Are they deceiving their partner or themselves? Especially if they truly believe it?

So, no, lying and deceit may be the same in some situations, but in others, not so much, if at all.

[Beth-Lock]

Both are dishonest, but not necessarily equally ranking in "sin".

The quite orthodox Roman Catholic Church actually had to come to grips with this some time ago, and the result was called casuistry, if I remember correctly. That means, if you are not asked, you need not always tell.




What if your partner wasn't as good at sex as a previous partner, would you tell them?

Probably not. Is that wrong? Not in my opinion.

I would call it being painfully honest to the point of being hurtful.

[sometimes_miss]

Few people tell their partnersALL of everything in their past life. Especially with crossdressing, I'm sure many of us felt we could put it all behind us if we just met the right woman. It was that way for me. I thought that I had found the right kind, loving woman who's love would be enough to get me by when the urge to crossdress hit me, which it hadn't since I had started dating her. So what was I to do five years into a marriage, things going down the tubes, and I can't go to her for emotional and physical comforting when I needed it? And I just gave in to the desire to crossdress. It wasn't anything malicious; I didn't mean to hurt her or anything like that. I didn't feel that I lied to her, or deceived her in any way; after all, I felt I had 'beaten it', and it would never come up again. So, much like someone who had shoplifted penny candy in the past but had stopped, would that person feel it necessary to tell their future mate about it if they hadn't done it in very long? No, I don't think so. Nor would I presume that all 'party girls' that behaved that way in college tell their mates about that part of their past either. It's something that we feel is no longer part of us, and because we have 'grown out of it', we don't mention it. Lies? NO. Deceit? NO. But what do we do when the crossdressing rears it's ugly/pretty head somewhere down the line, after learning that our mate will surely hate us for it? I don't have an answer for that one. Maybe someone else does. All I know, is that I found out that my ex would never have married me had she known about my crossdressing past. That's what got me believing that people fall in love with the image of who they think we are, not necessarily who we really are.

[valenstein]

Reading through this thread, I am amazed at all of the honest, deceitless people who have no secrets at all with their SO's on any subject whatsoever.

If everyone was as honest as they claimed, the world would be such a lovely place. My question is, why would you want to limit all of this beautiful honesty to your wives or SO's. Why don't you all go out right now and tell everyone? Your family, your friends, your employers/employees? What do you have to lose? Is it ok if you are honest to your wife but a fraud to the rest of the world?



Because it doesn't concern them. If I lived with my family I probably would. I don't tell my family because I am afraid that my brother-in-law won't let me see my nephews. I expect unconditional love from my sister and parents, but I don't necessarily extend that to in-laws or co-workers or even friends. I am at the point today where I would not keep a friend if I felt they would not accept me as I am.

I did hide this from my gf for a long time, and I feel terrible about it. It was when the urge became more than an occasional thought in my head to a realization of this is who I am coupled with my intent to marry her that I knew I had to risk telling her. It was the hardest thing I've ever had to do but:

I did not want to spend the rest of my life with someone who does not accept me as a whole. I don't expect that from any other person in the world.

[JulieK1980]

Jody, here's some news for you. Whether or not you are intimate doesn't hide the fact that you are deceitful to those in your family, those who employ you and pay your salary, and those you have pretentious friendships with. How many of them would drop you like the plague if they only knew your little secret. As for your children, isn't it the same thing? Aren't you emotionally close with them? The longer you wait, Jodi, the more you have deceived them. The father they thought they knew and loved was living a lie all the while. Will they be devastated when they find out? Or do you think that their minds will be so wide open that they will wholeheartedly accept the fact that Daddy likes to present himself as a woman? And will you put them at risk from ridicule if word slips out? At what age will you wait before you tell them? Or have you not decided that yet?

It's very nice to be able to write one's set of rules and then to tell others it is the only way to live. It shows a tremendous "understanding" on your part. Put everyone in the same box and then lecture them on what works for you.
Do you go about insulting people who happened to have been born prior to you? I'm hoping you have some respect for your parents who might have been born in those terrible, terrible 1950's, or even worse, the '60's.

Do you know that for many of us OLDer CD's, the urges grow with age rather than abate. How you feel now is not how you'll feel when you reach the ripe old age of 32. And then 42... and then 52. Start your own thread and find out if this is true. Perhaps when you reach 40, you will regret that you didn't transition. And then you will be faced with the prospect of tellling your wife that CD'ing doesn't cut it anymore. Be careful she doesn't come back at you and ask why you didn't tell her that at the time you got married. Only time will tell.

It's amazing that your youth hides Experience and at the same time gives you a cloak of morals that only applies to you and nobody else. I do not mean to flame you, but for you to sit there in your own circumstances and pass judgment on anybody is like living in a glass house.

Be careful because one little pebble is all it takes.

I will not further my comments here, so feel free to get in the last words.
You will have to live with them, not I.

Jacqui

You can end the discussion any time you wish, I won't lose sleep over it. But I'm going to argue my beliefs to the bitter end, because they are my beliefs. Its no different than you arguing your own. To disagree is divine. I'm sorry you are offended by my opinion, but that doesn't give you the right to flame me for having it.

I've already stated SEVERAL times, I CANNOT RELATE TO THOSE THAT CHOSE TO HIDE IT AFTER MARRIAGE. I did not choose that path, and thus cannot relate or judge. But to preach the greatness of dishonesty to loved ones is rather absurd. My fear is that a young crossdresser is going to agree with you and keep this cycle going. I still don't see how you can compare loved ones to coworkers, but maybe thats just me. I don't see any reason for telling a coworker unless I chose to transition and go to work dressed. That said many of my coworkers do know I crossdress. The ones that don't know I could care less if I'm decieving they are coworkers NOT friends. As for my real friends Yup they all know. I decided a long time ago, I don't want friends that don't accept me for me. So the ones that dropped me like a plague as you pointed out are long gone, and what remains are the ones that are true and good friends that don't care what I do as long as I'm happy. If you choose to live a lie as I said earlier good for you. I"M NOT JUDGING! BUT DON"T YOU DARE JUDGE ME!

Also you should know before you pass judgement on the telling of the kids, my son is 1 year old, and my daughter 5. So my son, won't really understand at this point whether I tell him once or 500 times. As for when I decide to tell them, me and my wife have had numerous discussions about it, and we are still in the deciding stages of when. Now as for the "full" disclosure of my wife, sorry thats a fail. Me and my wife maintain complete honesty. Yup we have discussed transition and all the nitty gritty and what ifs we can think of. Why because we both lived in relationships revolving around lies in the past, and KNOW it ends in failure.

Its funny your whole point was about me preaching my own beliefs, yet here you are doing the same. Sitting in your own circumstances and judging those that chose a different path. Its real easy to hide behind the cloak of experience and age and tell others that your way is the best.

Now that said, I wish to apologize for any I offended. I do not judge any who choose a different path than my own. You however must respect my own beliefs as well. I will utilize my right to free speach to argue my beliefs and point of views whenever it is challenged. Disagreement is something good and healthy and leads to a good discussion on any topic. Just don't flame me or others for their own beliefs and I will return the favor. Don't ever attempt to silence someone as no matter who they are, you may learn something from them. Now I also wish to point out, I WILL respond to discussion again.:tongueout

[AliceJaneInNewcastle]

I've already stated SEVERAL times, I CANNOT RELATE TO THOSE THAT CHOSE TO HIDE IT AFTER MARRIAGE. I did not choose that path, and thus cannot relate or judge. But to preach the greatness of dishonesty to loved ones is rather absurd. My fear is that a young crossdresser is going to agree with you and keep this cycle going.
I agree quite strongly with you on this. I don't agree with people who are married and have not told their partner and still won't do so. To espouse their position as if it is acceptable for someone who is not yet in a marriage to do the same thing is setting that unmarried person up to potentially experience the type of disastrous marriage failure that has been discussed so many times here and elsewhere.


As for my real friends Yup they all know. I decided a long time ago, I don't want friends that don't accept me for me. So the ones that dropped me like a plague as you pointed out are long gone, and what remains are the ones that are true and good friends that don't care what I do as long as I'm happy.
I've made more true friends both online and in real life by being a crossdresser and being honest that that is what I am. I have a few friends who I'm out to, including some I expected would never talk to me again, and their acceptance was far better than I ever dreamed possible.


If you choose to live a lie as I said earlier good for you.
But when that lie is discovered with disastrous consequences, don't be surprised if sympathy is not forthcoming.


Also you should know before you pass judgement on the telling of the kids, my son is 1 year old, and my daughter 5. So my son, won't really understand at this point whether I tell him once or 500 times. As for when I decide to tell them, me and my wife have had numerous discussions about it, and we are still in the deciding stages of when.
In my case, my son got to see me crossdressed from the first time I did so after he was born. If he is home when I'm dressing and going out, he sees me getting ready. At 5yo, he's entirely accepting of it.

From everything I've read on the subject, young children will accept it quite well up until about 8yo. Between about 8 and 22, they will be dealing with their own gender and relationship issues and may not take it well. After about 22, they are reasonably likely to be accepting except that by then you've done the whole hiding bit for over 20 years, so deceit raises its ugly head again.

The only downside of a young child knowing is the likelihood that they will out you accidently.


Now as for the "full" disclosure of my wife, sorry thats a fail. Me and my wife maintain complete honesty. Yup we have discussed transition and all the nitty gritty and what ifs we can think of. Why because we both lived in relationships revolving around lies in the past, and KNOW it ends in failure.
Ditto. Disclosed very early when dating, long before the decision to marry. If something changes, it will be discussed.

Alice

[Jacqui]

Ok, I lied. Here I go again, dishonest, deceitful and full of sin!

If you care to look at any of my previous posts on this subject, you will find that I have always said that I admired those who have opened up to their wives, have accepted themselves for who they are, etc., etc, etc, etc. But it is impossilbe for those who do not know the circumstances of other people's relationships and situations to preach to them. For you to imply that your way is the only way is, in a simple word, Wrong!

There is a constant theme on this board that offends many, many people, especially those who grew up before the good old Internet days. Many of us older CD'ers have been married longer than you've been alive and are still married!

For you and the Honesty Squad to insinuate to us that we are the lepers of this minority is to ignore the fact that we have somehow made our marriages work defying current statistics that say that 50% of marriages end up in divorce. So come back to me in 20 years when you decide whether or not you want to transition and your wife still stands by you.

You have taken my post totally wrong. You and all of the other members of the Honesty Squad are the ones espousing total honesty as the only way to go. Maybe, in my sarcasm, you have mistaken that I preach dishonesty. If that is the case, I apologize.

You see, even though you may say that total honesty only extends to the
ones you are intimate with or those who will accept you for who you are, I
believe that you are building your own glass bubble.

However, if that's what's good for you, it's fine with me. I will never tell you
how to live your life, it's none of my business.

I don't need you or anybody else telling me how to live mine.

Respectfully to Jody and the rest of the Honesty Squad,

Jacqui

[LA CINDY LOVE]

I told my wife after about 10yrs of marriage, we are married 37yrs now. the biggest relief to me was that I didnt have to lie anymore to her. All the times I would go out and get dressed I would tell her a lie. I was going to a hockey game or going to work and I had really taken off. Now when I go out I tell her Im going out with my friends, she knows what that means. It's not perfect, but it is much better than when I had to lie.

Yours Terri
Sooner or later as a crossdresser you will get CAUGHT if you live in the same house by your wife or girl Friend maybe even by your kids, and all that lying and being deceit you are doing they already know something is up so it is best to tell before you get caught.


LA CINDY LOVE

[Emily Anderson]

I'm the bank and I lost all your money. I'm not going to tell you about it. You can find out for yourself.

How do you feel?

[JulieK1980]

AliceJane,

Interesting points on when to tell the kids. Thats one of the things we've been contemplating and trying to figure out the best way to go about it. 8 or so is the age we seem to be coming to the conclusion of. Thanks for the input!:)

Jacqui,

Sorry if you feel the need to attack those that believe honesty is good. What part of I'm not able to relate or judge don't you understand? I'm NOT telling you what to do, or have I previously, so get off your high horse already. Being married for 20 or 30 years does not make you an expert, so excuse me if I don't let you tell me how to live my life either. AGAIN I reiterate, my views are just my views. You are entitled to defend yours and I'm entitled to defend mine. However you continue to try and personalize it, and a real debate doesn't work when its personal, so I'm going to let it lie for now, unless you decide name calling (truth squad) and such is not appropriate.

Again I reiterate, someones choice is their choice, you just have to live with the consequences of it. Congratulations though on being married for that long in a world where the odds are stacked against you. Thats no easy feat. But DON'T preach to me how to live my life, and maybe you should be more open to another point of view? What works for you may not work for us. I personally could never live with myself knowing my marriage was based on a lie. As for the glass bubble, I don't agree. I don't talk about my sex life at work either, is that putting myself in a bubble? We have fundamentally different ideas of how to live. I'm not attacking you, I don't see why you feel it necessary to attack me.

On a side note, DON'T EVER BRING MY WIFE INTO THE DISCUSSION on this, I kNOW HER YOU DON'T your opinion on whether she would stay with me or not is baseless and stupid. Do you know her? Didn't think so.:thumbsdn:

[Nicki B]

I agree quite strongly with you on this. I don't agree with people who are married and have not told their partner and still won't do so. To espouse their position as if it is acceptable for someone who is not yet in a marriage to do the same thing is setting that unmarried person up to potentially experience the type of disastrous marriage failure that has been discussed so many times here and elsewhere.

Many people aren't in a position to tell before marriage, because, as Donna says, they either didn't know or were deceiving themselves.

But - once in the relationship, are you going to tell them they MUST come clean, if they believe (perhaps with very good reason) that it will be the end of the marriage? Love and need tends to act against it.. :sad:

I do believe honesty is vital, I wouldn't want to be in a relationship without it (my own situation is, I'm ready to bet, unlike anyone else's here) - but I can also feel for someone who is in love but knows they hold the seed that will destroy everything that's important to them?


It's my experience that marriage is a series of compromises and many do survive on a diet of half-truths and ommissions, on both sides..

[Jilmac]

Nigella, I totally agree with you, It's impossible to tell a lie if nothing is spoken or implied. I have heard the term "lying by omission" and have often wondered, how can it be a lie if nothing was said in the first place? Deceit, on the other hand can be accomplished by omission of a word or phrase. My wife knew about my dressing before we were married. She disapproved so I stayed in the closet. That's deceit because I had already told her that I was a crossdresser.:2c:

[FoxyFriend]

Definition: Lie
Lie
Noun
1. A statement that deviates from or perverts the truth.

2. Norwegian diplomat who was the first Secretary General of the United Nations (1896-1968).

3. Position or manner in which something is situated.

Verb
1. Be located or situated somewhere; occupy a certain position.

2. Be lying, be prostrate; be in a horizontal position; "The sick man lay in bed all day"; "the books are lying on the shelf".

3. Originate (in); "The problems dwell in the social injustices in this country".

4. Be and remain in a particular state or condition; "lie dormant".

5. Tell an untruth; pretend with intent to deceive; "Don't lie to your parents"; "She lied when she told me she was only 29".

6. Have a place in relation to something else: "The fate of Bosnia lies in the hands of the West"; "The responsibility rests with the Allies".

7. Assume a reclining position; "lie down on the bed until you feel better".

Source: WordNet 1.7.1 Copyright © 2001 by Princeton University. All rights reserved.


From Websters online...

just my :2c:

[marny]

Get your own skirt Hon! Nuff said!

[Bev06 GG]

I see what you mean Nigella, but the fact is as others have already pointed out your are deceiving someone. You are in effect living a lie because your not being totally honest about who you are.
Its very difficult because some fear the repercussions of telling the truth but my guess is that a lot of women who find out by accident struggle more with the deceit than they do the dressing.
It would be rather nice if people stopped thinking about their rights and concentrated more on their responsibilities and the feelings of others. Sometimes I feel that people are so wrapped up in themselves that they fail to see how their actions are destroying someone else's self esteem and confidence. I would like to think that my partner was honest with me but I know from past experiences that he isn't. I know very well that he keeps many things from me and hence there is no trust left now. Once someone has lied to you and the trust goes, its not too long before the respect goes out of the window too. Doesn't leave you with much then does it.
Any way sorry for going on so I guess I am completely at the end of my tether and sick to death of selfish men who despite the love and acceptance that you show them, continually throw it back in your face with deceit.
Have a nice day
Bev

[vivianann]

Bev06 I agree with what you said, I have been on the recieving end of being decieved, it hurts like hell. I believe honesty is of upmost importance in marriage. I am sorry you have been hurt too, I know how you feel.
I told my ex about my crossdressing before we were married because I did not want to be holding any secrets from her. For a marriage to work there can not be any deciet period. And there needs to be give and take also, peaple cannot have everything their way 100% of the time.

[Samantha Kelsey]

i feel that CDing behind without the SO's knowledge is deceit. But how many have been asked on their SO's return "What have you been upto dear?" and answered "Nothing dear" or some other thing when in fact they've been CDing. Isn't that lying?

[Bootsiegalore]

In therapy, I learned, with non disclosure of a spouses affair.... It is deceptive.

Failure to disclose is deception.

Tara

After my disclosure of my CD'ing (which I gave after discovering several affairs of my wife's) we are closer and she is accepting. We go to TG functions and shopping together. It was during our counseling which I learned that her not telling me of the affairs was lying to me and deceiving me..... straight from the therapist's mouth.

[JulieK1980]

I see what you mean Nigella, but the fact is as others have already pointed out your are deceiving someone. You are in effect living a lie because your not being totally honest about who you are.
Its very difficult because some fear the repercussions of telling the truth but my guess is that a lot of women who find out by accident struggle more with the deceit than they do the dressing.
It would be rather nice if people stopped thinking about their rights and concentrated more on their responsibilities and the feelings of others. Sometimes I feel that people are so wrapped up in themselves that they fail to see how their actions are destroying someone else's self esteem and confidence. I would like to think that my partner was honest with me but I know from past experiences that he isn't. I know very well that he keeps many things from me and hence there is no trust left now. Once someone has lied to you and the trust goes, its not too long before the respect goes out of the window too. Doesn't leave you with much then does it.
Any way sorry for going on so I guess I am completely at the end of my tether and sick to death of selfish men who despite the love and acceptance that you show them, continually throw it back in your face with deceit.
Have a nice day
Bev

Very well said! I've gone through deceit myself, (not about crossdressing, my ex was having an affair) these are the types of things that help put things in perspective. Once you involve someone else in a relationship it stops being about you and becomes "us" there is no room in a relationship for holding information back like that, because it does destroy the relationship. Once trust is lost its lost, and rarely does it come back. Whether it be crossdressing or an affair or even a small lie, in the end it just hurts the trust level. I understand firsthand how difficult it can be to discuss crossdressing with your so, but to not do it, is contributing to ruining someone elses life.

[Dr.Susan]

If you entered a marriage or serious relationship and did not tell, it is lying.
You can not deceive without lying to support the deception weather it is vocal or not.

[Kelli Michelle]

I really wish that more Crossdressers would stop trying to make up excuses for why its ok to not tell your so about it. Ultimately its why we carry the stigma of being selfish. Quite frankly its never ok to lie to your spouse period end of story. People can argue about it all day long, but in the end its a lie, and its a BIG lie at that. The only real solution to a problem is honesty.

I don't think most cders that lie feel "ok" about it, do you? You don't think they feel extremely guilty for doing it?

So we carry the stigma of being selfish? I suppose you mean those people that left their wives and family "choosing" being a CD or TS over wife or family---or is it all CDs in general? This ignores the large numbers of CDers still in the closet (or not) that are and have been married for years.

Once again, I subscribe that if your cding activity is minor, she has no "need" to know. If it's major thing, in a perfect world, it would be the best policy. But.....it's not one is it. Is honesty the best policy if it destroys the relationship and the family? Because that would happen in most cases, wouldn't it? I am not espousing lying in general. But for CDing (only), it is something that is not illegal or immoral. The CDer is not hurting anyone, and it may be an integral part of him.

At least I can understand and empathize with a CDer who doesn't tell, can't you?

[JulieK1980]

I don't think most cders that lie feel "ok" about it, do you? You don't think they feel extremely guilty for doing it?

So we carry the stigma of being selfish? I suppose you mean those people that left their wives and family "choosing" being a CD or TS over wife or family---or is it all CDs in general? This ignores the large numbers of CDers still in the closet (or not) that are and have been married for years.

Once again, I subscribe that if your cding activity is minor, she has no "need" to know. If it's major thing, in a perfect world, it would be the best policy. But.....it's not one is it. Is honesty the best policy if it destroys the relationship and the family? Because that would happen in most cases, wouldn't it? I am not espousing lying in general. But for CDing (only), it is something that is not illegal or immoral. The CDer is not hurting anyone, and it may be an integral part of him.

At least I can understand and empathize with a CDer who doesn't tell, can't you?

I am sure there is much guilt for Many of the CDers who are in the closet. I know first hand from my own past and dating. As for the stigma of selfishness, yes we do carry that stigma because most don't realize they destroyed their marriage by keeping it a secret for years, and then complain that their so isn't accepting. Again I must reiterate, I cannot relate or judge to those who have been in the closet for years and never tell anyone. Its NOT a path I CHOSE so therefore cannot relate or judge. But if people were clear about it, and communicated from the begining, then they would not BE endangering their families, by "coming out" because if the spouse had a problem with it, they would have had the ability to leave before the marriage and family. As for the "harmless" crossdressing, its not harmless if it would hurt your family or your spouse. So yes I do believe in our current generation, its not the best policy to not tell your significant other before you get married. With a growing understanding there are many women in the world who have no problems with a man wearing a dress. That said, again these are my views on the subject and I mean no offense to the older generation who didn't have the options those in my generation have. Things have changed, and people need to change with it, or be hopelessly lost.

I do on a personal note, empathize with all the GG's on this site who have been decieved and lied to by their spouses though. Particularly those that would have been accepting from the begining, had their spouse had the wherewithal to tell them early on.

Now I must also point out, that a lot on here seem to think I'm throwing all the blame on CDers but I'm not. You misunderstand. It doesn't matter where the blame lies in the end. Its much more important to solve the problem. Quite frankly most CDers are caught in the crossfire between right and wrong. We all have odds stacked against us, and spent a large part of our lives hiding an unaccepted trait from the world. Its not the least bit surprising that many choose to continue hiding it. Unfortunately this creates issues with marriage, as opening up to someone and giving them ALL your love requires honesty, and thats something that is very difficult for someone who has never been able to do so. If blame must be doled out, then blame Western society for creating a binary gender system, and a culture that destroys anything out of the ordinary. The TRUE victims are the GG's AND the CD'ers who's lives are destroyed by the deception and lies.

[Nigella]

And so the arguments go on and on. There are some interesting points that have been raised, and more worldly people than me have answered them.

I will admit that some posts have gone way over my head, simple lass that I am. To put things into perpective from my own point of view.

Honesty, IMHO, is the best policy, but I do not preach to others that is what they should do. I opened this thread with a simple statement, and like all simple statements, it soon becomes a tangled web of claim and counter claim.

Things are not black and white, and as a number of people have stated, only those who live with a person can honestly say how each situation is likely to develope. Whatever your choice, as long as you can live with the consequences of it, good luck.

[JulieK1980]

And so the arguments go on and on. There are some interesting points that have been raised, and more worldly people than me have answered them.

I will admit that some posts have gone way over my head, simple lass that I am. To put things into perpective from my own point of view.

Honesty, IMHO, is the best policy, but I do not preach to others that is what they should do. I opened this thread with a simple statement, and like all simple statements, it soon becomes a tangled web of claim and counter claim.

Things are not black and white, and as a number of people have stated, only those who live with a person can honestly say how each situation is likely to develope. Whatever your choice, as long as you can live with the consequences of it, good luck.

Very true, but the advantage of a discussion like this isn't for people with my beliefs or those on the other side of the "battle" (us on both side of the spectrum have already made up our minds) its for those who are unsure of which is the best path, and this discussion would help them to see both sides and make up their own mind.

Nothing like a good debate to get the blood going.:D