Co-worker approached me today and

[Kimberly Marie Kelly]

and was complaining alot about his boss and co-worker. His boss used to be mine a while back, but I no longer work under him. Anyway I'm straying off my point. He was telling me how another co-worker was telling an outside service man that I'm weird, that I dress femininely, wear makeup and to watch out for me. My friend jumped in and said that I'm a very nice person that I have no malice towards anyone and that I go out of my way to help anyone when asked, just because he wear's different attire does not make me a bad person.

I said thank you for the compliment's he gave me. But the person who was denigrating me to this service vendor, I've known is homo-phobic. Ever since I started to wear makeup to work and start wearing feminine blouse's etc. he's started making comments and laughing, but he tired of making comments because it's been month's since I started and his comments had no effect on me. But now he has resorted to talking behind my back.. When will people ever grow up.. :battingeyelashes:

[Michelle 51]

That's too bad Kimberly and i know that it can hurt sometimes even when we pretend that things like that don't bother us or try not to let it bother us.I guess you have to weigh that against how good you feel by letting your femme side out on your job site.I commend you for being who you want to bb.

justabit

[Gabrielle Hermosa]

...But now he has resorted to talking behind my back.. When will people ever grow up.. :battingeyelashes:

Some people will never grow up or change. They won't because they simply don't want to and they're annoyed with anyone/anything that doesn't conform to the perfect little world that exists in their small, narrow mind.

It sounds to me like this homophobic co-worker of yours is seeking approval from others. He's fishing for a response like "yeah - what's up with that freak..." I hope he does not receive the response he's looking for.

You've got a lot of strength to be able to express yourself like you do at work. How far does your personal strength go?

Would it be possible for you to start up a friendly conversation with Mr. Homophobe? I'm talking a truly friendly-natured conversation - nothing sarcastic or too faky sounding. What would happen if you just tried to strike up a conversation about anything that you feel would not make him uncomfortable? I say the uncomfortable thing because if he's a homophobe, the last thing you want to do is to make him feel as if you're coming on to him (even if you are clearly not). It is probably best to attempt this within an earshot of other workers just in case.

If you think that is at all a possibility, give it a try. Give it time - a little conversation here, a little there. Never talk badly about this person to anyone else. If he doesn't go all homophobic on you, you might actually start to slowly change his mind about differences he does not currently accept. It's hard to hate someone that you start to enjoy the company of. ;)

If you're an enjoyable person to be around, let it be known to Mr. Homophobe. Perhaps his homophobia starts to melt away, if only a little.

Of course, trying to chat with him might only make things worse. It is a roll of the dice. The pay-off could be priceless though - turning a hater in to an understander. :)

[sterling12]

If you ever get some actual PROOF that he is denigrating you to others, and making your gender an issue when there is none; I would try and find a person(s) to testify to this fact to management. It will not go well for him!

People can be stupid and rude....and, sometimes there are consequences for such behavior.

Peace and Love, Joanie

[geri-tg.]

I hate this simple answer but I think never.We will always be judged.:sad:

[paulaN]

I say stay the hell away from him. And if he gets too homophobic behind your back,then report him. Ask you friends at work to help you by letting you know if he is bashing you at work. Then bust his sorry ass.

[Kimberly Marie Kelly]

asked if I was transitioning (previous post), she said at that time,that if people are making comments behind my back that I find offensive that I should let her know and she will talk with that person or person's about it. So maybe I should mention it to her, partly because he is talking with an outside service rep and making disparaging remarks about me to that person, which reflects on my companies reputation, not just mine.

What do you all think? Should I or shouldn't I, that is the question? :battingeyelashes:

Here is how I was dressed today, see attached picture..

[Angie G]

Some people wii never grow up Kimberly just keep being you hun. You a beautiful person and if that jerk can't see that well we all know what he can do to himself.:hugs:
Angie

[Ediosa]

I have to agree with you. You must report him. He is affecting the company cause he is making a bad remarks about you to a vendor. That vendor could decide to not use your company anymore. Therefore, he is affecting the companies money prospect and in this economy it is not a real good thing to lose a vendor. Second, he is affecting the companies climate. He is not affecting you, but he is affecting others by his stupid remarks. He needs to be talken too just for that reason. Affecting company environment is not a good thing to do in these days also. Lowering environment and possible loss of a vendor(means bad things will happen to him), he deserves nothing better. Tell the manager and HR about this situation and have your friends tell them also about what this jerk is saying.

My :2c:

[trannie T]

Some people do grow up. . .when their butt is in a chair in the human resources office and they are responding to harassment charges.

[sandra-leigh]

another co-worker was telling an outside service man that I'm weird, that I dress femininely, wear makeup and to watch out for me.

That would appear to meet the legal definition of slander.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libel

(In Canada, the legal term would be "defamatory libel")

You have a perfect right to tell HR that you have reason to believe that the person is slandering you and that you want the slander to stop. For example, I bet the co-worker is not a person who is authorized to make statements on behalf of the company on personnel matters, so even if the co-worker sincerely believed everything said to the vendor, the co-worker will be told to cease and desist and to go through official channels if the co-worker has a complaint about your behaviour.

[Raven Wynter Rayne]

I say You should try to let this person get to know You by talking with Him. You may never gain Him as a friend, but maybe sometime He may hear someone saying something about You and He will be the one standing up for You!! Who knows what is in His closet?? If You should go this route do have others around to be safe, if He will not change His ways, then go to H.R.

[Beth785]

Some people never grow up. They make themselves feel better by belittling others. It's high school all over again.

What he is doing to you is harassment, plain and simple. If you can, document it and take it to an HR representative. If they won't do anything, take it to the EEOC.

This will not stop until you can take a stand. It can hurt your ability to perform your job, and can also affect your ability to find a new job if the need ever arises.

We are here for you when you need us!

[Jess_cd32]

Thats a tough call whether to go to HR or not and report this jerk.

I'd maybe approach HR and say something like "I enjoy working here, I like my fellow co-workers but this one person is making disparaging remarks to people outside of this business and thats not doing any of us any good".
Think it out and either approach HR, which will cause further resentment on the jerks part, or have a talk with that individual to stop on a one to one basis (with a friend within earshot).

Let him know HR is already behind you.
I would think HR would rather have it settled this way, then they know it was a mutual worked out change of attitude, not a forced HR behaviour change.
Going direct to HR will kill any chance you have of ever truly getting along with this guy, not that you may want to, but you do work together.
Good luck.

[sandra-leigh]

Think it out and either approach HR, which will cause further resentment on the jerks part, or have a talk with that individual to stop on a one to one basis (with a friend within earshot).

Let him know HR is already behind you.
I would think HR would rather have it settled this way, then they know it was a mutual worked out change of attitude, not a forced HR behaviour change.

Last week I went to HR after someone had repeatedly told me to get a hair cut (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98397). I could have pulled the person aside for a private talk, but applying a LART (http://dictionary.babylon.com/Luser%20Attitude%20Re-adjustment%20Tool#!!GE5F8HNF7T) is not my responsibility.

Think of it this way: if it was a plain case of male "sexual harassment" against a female, then the female is not responsible for trying to trying to negotiate an end to the harassment with the male. And what Kimberly describes sure sounds like a case of gender harassment.

The policy in my (government) workplace is made clear to supervisors: that if anyone reports a discrimination issue to any supervisor, or the supervisor witnesses any case of discrimination, then that that supervisor becomes personally responsible for intervening (if witnessing) and for taking the situation up the line (either way). When I say "personally", I mean that if the supervisor fails to act, then the supervisor is them-self considered to have contributed to the workplace "permitting" the situation to continue, and risks fines and lawsuits and even jail time and the organization will not defend them. Intervention or action on reported or witnessed problems is mandatory for each supervisor, no matter whom is involved -- even if it means taking a complaint about your own boss or about the division head upwards, and even if the offended party is a guest or a contract janitor or works for a completely different sub-group.

Thus, in my organization at least, it is not the offended party's responsibility to talk to the offender and "try to work out the situation": people like Kimberly are not trained in how to talk through such situations -- the other person might get angry or violent or feel personally threatened. And unfortunately, the other person often thinks that what they are doing is "right", and often interprets a lack of management/HR action as tacit support of either the viewpoint itself or of the "right of free speech".


Yes, there is a possibility that the offender might resent that the matter was taken to "the authorities" rather than dealt with "in person". That can be especially an issue in groups such as police officers who may have an "unwritten code" that difficulties are dealt with directly, person to person, and where someone who files a complaint might be seen as violating the code of comrade and might be seen as not being a "team player", especially if there is a perceived disconnect between "management" and staff (e.g., management has desk jobs and the rank and file our out exposing themselves to danger.) I don't have a ready answer for what to do in such situations: I'm not an HR person.

[onowic]

That would appear to meet the legal definition of slander.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libel

(In Canada, the legal term would be "defamatory libel")

You have a perfect right to tell HR that you have reason to believe that the person is slandering you and that you want the slander to stop. For example, I bet the co-worker is not a person who is authorized to make statements on behalf of the company on personnel matters, so even if the co-worker sincerely believed everything said to the vendor, the co-worker will be told to cease and desist and to go through official channels if the co-worker has a complaint about your behaviour.

Better idea. Go to HR, off the record, tell them you appreciate the understanding and support that they have given you but word has gotten back to you of the above situation. You understand that they can't really put a muzzle on everyone in the company and you are concerned about what is being said affecting the company in a negative way. Ask the HR person for their personal opinion of if they think it will be an issue and if you should stop to appease this person and keep the word from getting out to clients and vendors. Even if they say yes, you don't have to stop, it's just an opinion, and I would be stunned if they did say yes. And that way you have brought it to their attention, informally, so their is no paperwork saying you complained and they can handle it informally.

Personally though I'd go up to the guy, tell him what he is saying about you behind your back, especially to vendors, has gotten back to you, and both fellow employees and the vendors think he's an idiot and an ass.

[pinkeverything]

Last week I went to HR after someone had repeatedly told me to get a hair cut (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98397). I could have pulled the person aside for a private talk, but applying a LART (http://dictionary.babylon.com/Luser%20Attitude%20Re-adjustment%20Tool#!!GE5F8HNF7T) is not my responsibility.

Think of it this way: if it was a plain case of male "sexual harassment" against a female, then the female is not responsible for trying to trying to negotiate an end to the harassment with the male. And what Kimberly describes sure sounds like a case of gender harassment.

The policy in my (government) workplace is made clear to supervisors: that if anyone reports a discrimination issue to any supervisor, or the supervisor witnesses any case of discrimination, then that that supervisor becomes personally responsible for intervening (if witnessing) and for taking the situation up the line (either way). When I say "personally", I mean that if the supervisor fails to act, then the supervisor is them-self considered to have contributed to the workplace "permitting" the situation to continue, and risks fines and lawsuits and even jail time and the organization will not defend them. Intervention or action on reported or witnessed problems is mandatory for each supervisor, no matter whom is involved -- even if it means taking a complaint about your own boss or about the division head upwards, and even if the offended party is a guest or a contract janitor or works for a completely different sub-group.

Thus, in my organization at least, it is not the offended party's responsibility to talk to the offender and "try to work out the situation": people like Kimberly are not trained in how to talk through such situations -- the other person might get angry or violent or feel personally threatened. And unfortunately, the other person often thinks that what they are doing is "right", and often interprets a lack of management/HR action as tacit support of either the viewpoint itself or of the "right of free speech".


Yes, there is a possibility that the offender might resent that the matter was taken to "the authorities" rather than dealt with "in person". That can be especially an issue in groups such as police officers who may have an "unwritten code" that difficulties are dealt with directly, person to person, and where someone who files a complaint might be seen as violating the code of comrade and might be seen as not being a "team player", especially if there is a perceived disconnect between "management" and staff (e.g., management has desk jobs and the rank and file our out exposing themselves to danger.) I don't have a ready answer for what to do in such situations: I'm not an HR person.


This is a well written post. I appreciate the time and thoughtfulness required to respond to the original posters dilemma.

For what it's worth, internal office politics are almost always best dealt with by using HR. If you value your position and wish to boost the esteem that your coworkers hold for you...use HR. I certainly wouldn't risk a confrontation with the offender. It will allow the offender to backtrack, deceive, organize a defense, or worse...an offense against you.

It's best to nip it in the butt while it's fresh, in my opinion.

[JoAnne Wheeler]

Get yourself a small tape recorder and tape him saying these things - if you are able to get it on tape what he says about you, then you have two choices: 1) confront him and ket him know that you have him on tape and that if you ever hear of him saying anything unkind toward you to anyone, then you will take it up with management or the civil authorities; 2) by-pass him and go directly to management and the civil authorities

JoAnne Wheeler

[sandra-leigh]

Get yourself a small tape recorder and tape him saying these things - if you are able to get it on tape what he says about you, then you have two choices: 1) confront him and ket him know that you have him on tape and that if you ever hear of him saying anything unkind toward you to anyone, then you will take it up with management or the civil authorities; 2) by-pass him and go directly to management and the civil authorities


I would not recommend that approach: it becomes too much like "blackmail"; and it relies upon the strategy of Kimberly actually catching the person in the act -- the person would have been unlikely to talk that way to the vendor about Kimberly when Kimberly was present.

Different HR departments have different standards of evidence before they will act. The HR department where I am would act upon a uncollaborated report, even if the "action" only consisted of pulling the person in to "review" with them what acceptable bounds were.

[EryLynn]

I have to agree with Tess-Leigh.

Even if he dares make comments in front of you, which he'd probably NOT do (he's a coward, otherwise he'd have approached you directly) and trying to tape him, strikes me as something you would see on CSI or some other police-drama type show.

Even if the tape were to be presented in "court" the question of "legality" may cause more problems than it's likely to resolve. The question of "goading" may lure it's nasty head.

But that aside, you don't know what his reaction would be if you were to confront him trying to tape him. You may be pouring gasoline on an ember.... great if you quench it, but look out if you don't.

While your picture and appearance is NOT offensive to anyone here, it's because we're not alienated nor "phobic" about it. In fact, I'd wager that there are a couple of us who secretly (and maybe not so secretly) envy you.

However, to the average homophobic "Joe Anybody" in mainstream US society... you are pushing the boundaries of male/female attire and appearance. While here you're complaining (preaching) to the choir, out there there are some devout and deeply canalized individuals who see you and the rest of us as some evil presence to be snuffed out.

I'm not saying you should give up, nor run in fear, but to understand that as more of us venture out into the open (and apologies for the metaphor), we'll gain more and more acceptance. But until then we will continue to discover individuals who are against us and we should keep a wary distance from them. Sadly, there ARE instances of sisters who have paid the ultimate price for their beliefs.

By all means you should go to HR and at least have a talk with them. That alone may suffice to reassure you, or you may be asked more matter-of-factly if you are transitioning or not, at which point you have a decision to make.

Sometimes, whether we like it or not, you must go along with the main stream of things, while maintaining your individuality. Kind of like driving a Right Hand Drive car in a Left Hand Drive country... you're ok as long as you go along with traffic. Try to drive RHD style on a LHD road and all you're doing is asking for a head-on collision.

EryLynn

[Billijo49504]

If HR can't stop the jerk from slandering you, maybe a lawyer can stop him. We had a general supervisor that called a masculan looking female a dyke. She and her husband sued him and GM. GM disavowed him and when they had proof of his remark, he was retired, quickly. On Tuesday he said he was working Saturday and on Thursday we heard that was his last day...BJ

[Jennifer Cox]

I say stay the hell away from him. And if he gets too homophobic behind your back,then report him. Ask you friends at work to help you by letting you know if he is bashing you at work. Then bust his sorry ass.

:iagree:

[MarcieM]

The question is - are you really surprised that someone is making comments about you?
Sure, you can report him and whatever, but this may very well turn out to be the kind of guy who waits for you on a dark parking lot with a tire iron. Who wins then?

[Lora Olivia]

He was telling me how another co-worker was telling an outside service man that I'm weird, that I dress femininely, wear makeup and to watch out for me. My friend jumped in and said that I'm a very nice person that I have no malice towards anyone and that I go out of my way to help anyone when asked, just because he wear's different attire does not make me a bad person.

Maybe your friend and you should discuss this with your HR lady. I say this only because it involves an "outsider". Otherwise I would probably try to ignore this and give him more rope to hang himself with. Even though gender identity and expression are not protected everywhere what is a fact is that harassment is not permitted and this is harassment!!

[Sally2005]

I've had to report 'stuff' that others did at work before (not related to gender though)... your only choice is to tell the HR person, proof or not. You can do it such that it is recoreded, but doesn't make a huge case. If you really want this person gone, the fact that he told a customer should be cause for immediate action (it would be pretty easy for the HR person to interview the friend of yours or even the customer)...you know, even the customer may have a responsibility to report it to their management because their company may have a policy against it. The other thing to do, is politely ask the HR person for a copy of the report for your own records. You want to keep detailed records should anything impact you or your work. It is a pain, but keeping records will win any dispute long before you ever need to go to court...just do it discreetly so as not to appear to be a trouble maker. Hopefully it will never come to that.

[sandra-leigh]

Sure, you can report him and whatever, but this may very well turn out to be the kind of guy who waits for you on a dark parking lot with a tire iron. Who wins then?

No, that's why he must be reported!

For more than a century, people have been repressed by the fear that someone would "get back at them later" -- that some "anonymous people" might come by and throw rocks at their windows or toss a lit brand at their house or put up a flaming cross or slash their tires or so on. Keeping quiet out of fear that this might be such a person gives the other person power: nothing is accomplished except to continue to live in the fear that the person will do it again whenever they choose and that "nothing can be done about it" because they might stalk you or attack you. The battle for freedom is won by turning light on people's actions, not allowing oneself to be intimidated by what the other person might do.

If an employee would do such a thing, then they would do such a thing with respect to more than one person, keeping multiple people "in their place" by fear. Having a problematic action on the record helps noticeably if legal action needs to be taken at some point, and can help encourage others to speak up.

[Nicki B]

So maybe I should mention it to her, partly because he is talking with an outside service rep and making disparaging remarks about me to that person, which reflects on my companies reputation, not just mine.

What do you all think? Should I or shouldn't I, that is the question? :battingeyelashes:

Well if you don't tell her, how can the company make a decision about any damage being done to it's reputation?

IMHO, they need to know - and given the comments in the past, I think you're on solid ground. There may be other things you're not aware of, so just pass on your evidence.

[MarcieM]

No, that's why he must be reported!
For more than a century, people have been repressed by the fear that someone would "get back at them later" -- that some "anonymous people" might come by and throw rocks at their windows or toss a lit brand at their house or put up a flaming cross or slash their tires or so on. Keeping quiet out of fear that this might be such a person gives the other person power: nothing is accomplished except to continue to live in the fear that the person will do it again whenever they choose and that "nothing can be done about it" because they might stalk you or attack you. The battle for freedom is won by turning light on people's actions, not allowing oneself to be intimidated by what the other person might do.

The "battle for freedom" won't mean a thing if some maniac pumps a few slugs from his 9mm into you. I say reporting this person involves risk. If you're willing to take that risk, report him. If not, I'd say pretend like he doesn't exist.

[sandra-leigh]

The "battle for freedom" won't mean a thing if some maniac pumps a few slugs from his 9mm into you. I say reporting this person involves risk.

Telling someone to "Have a nice day" involves a risk that the other person might flip out and put some slugs in you or into someone you know. Safer to stay home all of the time and speak to no-one and let no-one in.

[Bootsiegalore]

When will people ever grow up.. :battingeyelashes:

NEVER! My wife always says..... "Life is like High School. There will always be bullies and antagonists."

and to quote Madeline Cahn, "It's Twue, It's Twue!"

Tara

[MarcieM]

Telling someone to "Have a nice day" involves a risk that the other person might flip out and put some slugs in you or into someone you know. Safer to stay home all of the time and speak to no-one and let no-one in.
whatever works for you...

[KandisTX]

Ladies,

There is one thing that I do not see being listed here that should be. Sexual Harassment does NOT have to be reported by the victim. If someone else witnesses an act of sexual harassment (yes, THIS IS sexual harassment because it makes YOU feel uncomfortable and creates a hostile work environment) and is offended by it, whether or not the victim is offended by it, they can report it as such. Once it has been reported to HR, it then becomes HR's responsibility to investigate the complaint and take appropriate actions.

Your friend who told you about these comments can take it to the HR department on your behalf and report it. Since the comments are being made "behind your back", the odds are you will not be suspected as being the one who reported the offender. The only problem here is that you then become a part of the investigation, and it could effect your situation at work. I commend you for coming out at work and being able to dress as you are, however when you made the decision to do this, you also should have understood (which your previous posts state that you did), the possible consequences of those actions.

My recommendation is that you can either 1) Report it yourself. 2) Ask your friend to report it. There is a third option, however I do not recommend it and that is to "Let it go". If you let it go, it will continue and possibly escalate further which would in fact result in creation of an even more hostile work environment.

Kandis:love::rose2:

[MarcieM]

My recommendation is that you can either 1) Report it yourself. 2) Ask your friend to report it. There is a third option, however I do not recommend it and that is to "Let it go". If you let it go, it will continue and possibly escalate further which would in fact result in creation of an even more hostile work environment.
There's actually a fourth option.
4) Stop dressing femme at work. And very possibly the harrasment will stop and this will blow over.

Ask yourself this question: Is it really worth it? Even if it is about proving a point that you're entitled to wear whatever you want, is it worth it?

[Michelia]

I just want to say I admire you for your courage.

I like your soft look. I know I am going against the grain here, but I am really surprised you do not have it a lot worse than you do.

I would never dare. I do not think I would survive where I work.

[KandisTX]

There's actually a fourth option.
4) Stop dressing femme at work. And very possibly the harrasment will stop and this will blow over.

Ask yourself this question: Is it really worth it? Even if it is about proving a point that you're entitled to wear whatever you want, is it worth it?

You are correct MarcieM, I did forget that option. I have often wondered myself IF it would be possible for me to dress more femme at work, but the idea of having to come out and knowing what could happen in my line of work. (I am in corporate sales), I have decided that it is not worth the risk to my families financial future. I have 11 years seniority at my job and the thought of starting over again at a much lower paying job just does not appeal to me.

Kandis:love::rose2:

[Nicki B]

The "battle for freedom" won't mean a thing if some maniac pumps a few slugs from his 9mm into you. I say reporting this person involves risk. If you're willing to take that risk, report him. If not, I'd say pretend like he doesn't exist.

I'm really glad your 'reality' is not mine..

[MarcieM]

I'm really glad your 'reality' is not mine..
The feeling is quite mutual.

[Kimberly Marie Kelly]

From reading the post's so far, it seems there is a consensus as to what to do. Tell my HR rep what was said and let her sort out the issue.

Since I am not in the office this week I have decided to send a well worded email to her, outlining what was said to me, for her to talk with this other person who stood up for me. I have also sent an email to my supportive co-worker letting him know that HR will probably talk with him.

I told my HR rep that I don't have a problem with this employee, that he is entitled to his viewpoints, but when it it is extended and voiced to an outside service vendor that is when I need to talk to her. That it is unprofessional and possibly harmful to our companies image, I will let her proceed with the investigation of what happened.

I will let you all know what happens later this week. I want to express to all of my friends here on this site how the insightful thought's and advice help me grow as a woman, to be more confident in being me. Love Kimberly :battingeyelashes:

[MarcieM]

I will let you all know what happens later this week. I want to express to all of my friends here on this site how the insightful thought's and advice help me grow as a woman, to be more confident in being me. Love Kimberly
I'm confused by this post.
You say you want to "grow as a woman" when you haven't yet spoken up and told your employer that you're transitioning. Do you have a medical diagnosis as transsexual?

[Kimberly Marie Kelly]

No, I do not have a diagnosis of being TS by a therapist or Doctor, but that does not mean I am not a TS, just means I'm not diagnosed TS.

As far as work is concerned, in previous conversations with my HR manager it has been mentioned by me, that I'm leaning towards being Transsexual and that sometime in the future (yrs off) I might transition from a Man to Woman.

As these feelings have only become prevalent in the last two years, I want to take my time and make sure that this is what I want to be.. that is why I am seeking out answers and looking for a good gender therapist who can help me decide what I am or where I am in my transgendered state. But at the present time I feel more Transsexual than Crossdresser. And yes, there is some confusion, but that comes with this journey at times.. :battingeyelashes:

[MJ]

if your going to go to work dressed don't you think you should dress all the way ?
i know it won't stop anything. boy did i get it too but some people just feel better when they can pick on someone else we are the bigger targets
so why can't you go fully dressed ? thanks :hugs:

[cd_britney_426]

There are a few points I would like to address for Kimberly and mainly based on Marci's posts.

First, you have the right to be yourself. Now we all know that workplaces are private property which can have rules that govern dress attire among other things. However, Kimberly already has had discussions with HR about her transgender issues and has stated that she has the full support of HR if she would like to transition. If I have read her posts correctly, Kimberly has been presenting as mostly female in appearance on an almost daily basis so in essense the transition has already begun at least in terms of the clothes. It also sounds as if Kimberly already has tenure in the company as well as good standing. If this was a workplace where she did not have support of the management and money is tight then I could see Kimberly having to give up dressing temporarily if it meant keeping food on the table and the landlord (or whatever) happy. This is clearly not the case here.

Second, the gossipy co-worker in question is clearly a disturbed individual but to what level we don't know. Safety may or may not be an issue here but it is something that has to be considered. I have dealt with many "disturbed" people and sad to say most of the time they are unpredictable. You never really know if confronting someone about something will wake them up, they will mature, and apologize accordingly or if they will go out to their car, load up a 12-gauge shotgun, come back, and start killing people. These days a lot of people are incredibly unstable, a lot of people are on medications for mental problems, and have violent tendencies. You don't want to live in fear but you don't want to look at the world through rose-colored glasses either. I have had to use physical force on people for mere confrontations. In other words, I nicely ask the person to stop doing something and they immediately resort to violence without any concept of the consequences. I have had people evicted from their apartments, fired from their jobs, and even arrested for violent and threatening behavior. I'm not proud of "ratting" on people especially since you do indeed have to watch your back later for potential retaliations. Unfortunately, this is the real world and there are a whole lot of crazies out there and if you don't believe me just pick up the morning paper.

Third, based on the second point I believe in standing for your rights but with caution. I have noticed that very rarely do problems just remain without going anywhere. They either escalate or de-escalate so if a problem is not dealt with accordingly, it will escalate. The comments may start behind someone's back, eventually become direct confrontations, and can lead to criminal behavior such as vandalism, threats, and ultimately violence. Some people are just all talk while others truly are dangerous. You just never know. I am not a psychologist, neither is Kimberly, or most of us here so you just don't know who you are dealing with and what they are capable of. Ignoring the person is not an option because again it will continue to get worse. I would strongly recommend that Kimberly contact HR immediately, to avoid all contact with the individual except as required for business purposes only, and also to not discuss the issue further with co-workers unless absolutely necessary. Co-workers can gossip too and Kimberly's comments could also get back to the individual.

Fourth, Marci's points made no sense. It is statistically unlikely that a mere confrontation with the individual by management will result in the person going postal at work. However, it does happen which is why you do have to watch your back and make confrontations carefully. However, you cannot go through life afraid to confront anyone for fear of violence. You can't live in a cave. You also should learn how to defend yourself. I have far better situational awareness skills than most people wandering around because I have practiced for years. I also carry weapons where appropriate and where allowed and I don't carry anything that I have not been trained on in terms of its proper use, the laws, and safety. It is important to be proactive in your life and not just reactive. Again, Kimberly should report the issue, let management deal with it, avoid unnecessary confrontations, and be aware of her surroundings if the individual is demonstrating threatening/violent tendencies. Always have an action plan in case just as you would for fires and other emergencies. Again, don't live in fear but don't live in a mindless bubble either. Marci's point to cease dressing is ridiculous. Kimberly has the support of her management. You can't go through life not doing the things you enjoy because of your fear that others don't approve. The final point made my Marci about Kimberly not being diagnosed as TS is irrelevant. You are who you are regardless of what some doctor thinks.

I hope my points have helped here. I don't want to scare you Kimberly but you should be careful in how you handle the situation but don't ignore it. It sounds to me like Kimberly is on top of the situation for the most part. Good luck, Britney

[MarcieM]

Marci's point to cease dressing is ridiculous. Kimberly has the support of her management. You can't go through life not doing the things you enjoy because of your fear that others don't approve. The final point made my Marci about Kimberly not being diagnosed as TS is irrelevant. You are who you are regardless of what some doctor thinks.

No, my point is not ridiculous. This may very well be the best way to end all of the harassment.

This person has already told her employer that a transition is not what is happening right now. If this person had a medical diagnosis of TS, I guarantee you that it would be looked at much differently. As it stands right now, it's just looked at as some guy who wants to dress like a girl.

Here's the bottom line...society does not look favorably upon a feminized non-passable male in public like this. This individual will be singled out and harassed at almost every opportunity. You can say whatever you want, but that's pretty much the reality of this situation. Is it Right? Is it Fair? No, I never said it was. It's the law of nature. Sure, you can try to "make a stand" but at what cost?

Things would be much easier for this person if they achieved a full femme look and not the appearance of a feminized male.

[MarcieM]

...and so let the Mafia rule the world?

No, buddy, not my world.
The Mafia? What have you been smoking?

[cd_britney_426]

Marcie, it doesn't seem like you have or understood all of the information. Kimberly hasn't even been harrassed (yet) and let's hope that doesn't happen. She already has co-workers who are supporting her in addition to management. Obviously, this isn't a case of "everyone harrassing at every opportunity" as you basically put it. Personally, I think it may be a better idea to go full femme but this isn't about what I want or you want but what Kimberly wants. There is someone at my job who is quite androgynous but as far as I'm aware he prefers to be treated as male and wears mostly male clothing except that he does wear makeup. Nobody has been harrassing him. I do have to say when you have some tenure in a company it helps. If you have been around longer than most others at work you have a sense of authority over them although only symbolically. Newbies aren't likely to cause problems for an old-timer because if the person has stuck around so long then the conclusion is generally made that the company respects them as a valuable asset.

I'd like to show up to work full femme but I'm not at that point yet. A lot of transgender people do transition slowly on the job because that is what they feel comfortable with. Gradual changes usally cause less of a shock or resistance than sudden changes. For instance, I go to work every day in drab but since April I have been keeping my arms shaved (among other areas) and anyone who cares to pay attention since I wear short-sleeved shirts would notice that my arms are too smooth and hairless for it to be simply coincidence. I have also been growing my hair out and it is almost to the level of being able to put it in a ponytail and I'm even starting to have bangs come down the sides of my head to some degree. These are tiny and slow changes that only get minimal notice. Perhaps the next thing will be doing my nails. I may do one thing at time and go from presenting as male to androgynous to eventually female but I'm not going to do a whole lot at once. You'd be surprised how when you cook the frog slowly it doesn't notice. Kimberly wasn't mentioning problems with multiple people at work so obviously her changes are probably barely noticed by the majority, noticed by some and accepted or at least not resisted, but only one single individual who has an issue with it. That's why your points about what society thinks, violence, etc. don't really make sense here because we are talking about one individual and not like the whole workplace is against her. Britney

[sandra-leigh]

That's why your points about what society thinks, violence, etc. don't really make sense here because we are talking about one individual and not like the whole workplace is against her.

In my reading of the postings, it is not important to Marcie's position whether only a single person is upset or larger numbers of people are upset. All it takes is a single person waiting one night with a knife or a gun to get you an extended visit to the hospital or morgue. Therefore (in my reading of the posts), if even one person dislikes what is happening, Marcie recommends either dropping back to (public) normality (to remove the chance that the other party might freak out) -- or to make one's will and be prepared for the possibility of dying for one's earrings. Dealing with the situation through HR or a peace bond or similar is not recommended in Marcie's view, as that might trigger resentment and violence. In this world-view I gather that one should either hide oneself or prepare for the day that will come (not might come) of being physically attacked.


Of course, this position does neglect the point that what has set off some people is that the people around them "are all just sheep", blindly following everyone else, and since the role of sheep in the food chain is to be slaughtered, killing a bunch of "sheep" is no moral problem, or is perhaps even a "moral good" as it might "wake up" some people. Thus hiding behind normality is no fail-safe either.

Presumably Marcie follows some recipe of behaviour that leaves her safe from attack by crazies, including ones upset that (say) she didn't hold the door open for them -- or upset that she did hold the door open for them ("Are you implying that I am weak, that I can't get the door for myself?!" ), but, Alas, my imagination does not reveal to me what that recipe might be.

[MarcieM]

Presumably Marcie follows some recipe of behaviour that leaves her safe from attack by crazies, including ones upset that (say) she didn't hold the door open for them -- or upset that she did hold the door open for them ("Are you implying that I am weak, that I can't get the door for myself?!" ), but, Alas, my imagination does not reveal to me what that recipe might be.
I'll be quite happy to reveal my recipe.
I don't leave my house CD-ed.
Let me tell you something.
No matter what you've heard - passing IS everything. If you don't pass 100%as a female, be prepared to accept the consequences of your actions.
It's quite simple, really.

You can't expect universal acceptance in society.

[KandisTX]

Come on ladies. MarcieM has some valid points that I am sure we can all agree on. While not EVERYONE is freaking out about Kimberly, there is ONE person that is having issues with her. That one person is a seed, and that seed is germinating and will grow, and much like the spores of a fungus, it WILL spread.

Now, I'm not saying that Kimberly is any real immediate danger, and I don't think MarcieM is either. But, what IS being said is that this aspect of things is highly possible.

Does anyone recall the old television show hosted by Jenny Jones? Wasn't there a situation where a man revealed to one of his male friends that he was gay and was attracted to him, and the one that revealed the secret crush was shot and killed by the other? This is a somewhat similar situation although not being an "outing" of a crush on national television. Here we have a crossdresser, not a TS as Kimberly has stated she is NOT interested in transitioning at this time, who is dressing femme at work and has a person she works with that apparently has a problem with her doing so. We, all of us who have responded, have given Kimberly our advice and suggestions, but ultimately the decision of how to handle it is up to Kimberly. Please, let us NOT start saying that one of us does not have a valid idea or point. We are all living the same life, although some not to the extent of others. We are all sisters here right?

Kandis:love::rose2:

[Kimberly Marie Kelly]

Since I am out of town this week, I have not been able to talk with my HR manager, I did email her about the comments that were relayed to me by a co-worker, who indicated support at that time. Since then he as reneged on his support. He is refusing to say he heard anything and refusing to say he spoke with me. I guess you learn who your friends are when you ask their support.

I suspect that my HR manager has spoken with the offending employee, because he has not spoken with the co-worker who heard the comments and who initially indicated support to me. I think he is afraid that if he says anything, this co-worker of his isn't going to speak with him. Fortunately, with harassment situations HR is obligated by company policy to investigate no matter what. I have not heard anything from my HR manager yet, but will check with her later this week.

I think in my heart I did the right thing. :battingeyelashes:

[cd_britney_426]

Kimberly, since you have already gone to HR about the issue, at this point I would just keep a low profile. Just as with anyone at any job, the easiest thing to do sometimes is to just clock in, do your job, and go home without making yourself unusually noticable. That means that any small talk that you engage in with co-workers while you are passing the time throughout the day is neutral, does not involve gossip or contraversial topics (political, religious, etc.), and doesn't reveal a lot of personal information. I wouldn't keep bringing up the issue further with HR or co-workers unless it escalates and if so I would choose your words carefully and with whom you share them. Good luck.

As to the others here, when it comes to concerns over violence you need to apply risk management techniques which basically look at probabilities. Anything can happen to anyone at any time but the question is to what degree are we concerned over the possibility that something might happen vs. WILL likely happen tomorrow. Proper risk management of one's life allows one to find a healthy balance between paranoia and obliviousness. An oblivious person will look at the world through rose-colored glasses, take unnecessary and absurd risks with their life, and can't grasp the possibility that "it could ever happen to me." A paranoid person allows their fears of remote and unlikely possibilities to control their life to the degree where excessive time, money, and energy is spent on protection from unlikely events to avoidance of normal everyday activities that many people engage in.


I'll be quite happy to reveal my recipe.
I don't leave my house CD-ed.
Let me tell you something.
No matter what you've heard - passing IS everything. If you don't pass 100%as a female, be prepared to accept the consequences of your actions.
It's quite simple, really.

You can't expect universal acceptance in society.

No offense but I see this as leaning more towards the paranoid end of the bell curve of what I mentioned above. Someone else mentioned something about a story on TV where a gay man was murdered after he revealed his crush on someone. Even if it was a true story, I don't recommend basing reality on what you see on TV. I'll use a personal example here. Every weekend I leave my apartment late at night CDed to go to a nightclub that is CD-friendly. I return very late at night (around 3 am). This is a somewhat rough area of Phoenix but certainly not a ghetto either. Practically all of my neighbors have seen me and it seemed like I heard a couple of snickers so I'm sure they all know that I am a tranny (or whatever they call it in their minds) but I could be wrong. Sometimes my car is far away from my apartment so I have to walk through the parking lot late at night to go to or return from my car. Even if I do pass and the neighbors don't know I'm TG then I am still dressed seductively and would have the same safety concerns a GG would. I also have a CCW permit and carry a pistol in my purse in case I were to get attacked going to/from my apartment. I also wear a seatbelt while I drive to and from the club. Sure, there is a chance someone may not like TG people and try to kill me but statistically I am far more likely to die in a car accident on the way to the club even with a seatbelt on. I don't consider wearing a seatbelt paranoid of an accident and I don't consider carrying a gun with proper training paranoid either. After all, the law requires us to wear a seatbelt and this is a gun state where practically everyone I know owns one or more. What is paranoid to me is standing at my front door afraid to step out because of the mere possibility of being injured or killed by an attacker even though the recent trip to the grocery store in DRAB put me in far greater danger according to auto fatality statistics.

I didn't mean to go on and on but you have to find some balance here. There are TGs who prostitute every day of their lives and put their lives on the line every day for a few dollars and most of them still end up making it although they are completely throwing all safety to the wind. Then you have people who go through life constantly worried about every possible danger who end up dying by simply slipping in their own shower in their own home. We take chances every day in everything we do. The key is to assess our risks and take precautions accordingly not spend our whole lives hiding in fear of the unknown. Take control of your own life. If you are not in control of your destiny then you really aren't living a life to begin with. Britney

[sandra-leigh]

Anything can happen to anyone at any time but the question is to what degree are we concerned over the possibility that something might happen vs. WILL likely happen tomorrow. Proper risk management of one's life allows one to find a healthy balance between paranoia and obliviousness.

:iagree: :sh:

About 5 years ago, one night as I hustled to get the last bus of the night, I got mugged on the way, only about 1 1/2 blocks away from work. They had a piece of wood wrapped up with carpet that they hit me on the head with, which surprised me and dazed me a bit. And there were two of them and I don't run all that quickly... so I handed over my wallet. Lost somewhere around $220.

I could have gotten bitter and outraged and could have lived in fear of everyone after that and completely changed my habits -- but I made a decision, and so in the end all they stole from me was a bit of money, and not my way of life or personal sanity. So I'm a little more careful now, but situationally, not perpetually. If I'm walking by myself all Dressed in a rough neighbourhood, I keep my eyes open and don't act like a victim.

The mugging had nothing to do with CD'ing -- I wasn't a CD-er at the time. And it didn't steal away my capacity for forming bonds: since I've become a CD, I've been open with lots of different people, and nearly all of them have been either indifferent or accepting or encouraging -- I talk socially to many more people now than I did before, and a lot of them enjoy my company. If I had been afraid of what might be, I would have missed so much!

I can walk into nearly any clothing chain or boutique in the city and expect to be treated with respect -- and conversely, places that had no experience with cross-dressers and were a bit squeamish on the idea now welcome me and welcome other cross-dressers, because they've dealt with me as a person and found that Okay, so I'm a bit different, but I'm good-hearted and treat them well, and that have a sense of taste, and that many clothes look surprisingly good on me -- I'm a person, not a pervert and not a caricature.

My mugging didn't set me back (and didn't push me forward either), but just "being myself" has broken down barriers and raised public acceptance, and so notably reduced the likelihood of lynching.

Is my openness without risk? Of course there are risks. Even cross-dressers get pretty confused sometimes about attraction and sexuality, so if some guy were to perchance take a liking to me while I was Dressed, then even if they could tell I was male (which apparently is not especially hard in my case), their confusion over what that attraction means about themselves could potentially lead to an Incident. But I don't lead anyone on, and I don't try to seduce anyone or even dance with any guys (or dance at all): I don't hide this major part of me away because of a possibility of what someone might think. I have much more important things to worry about -- things like the stress my wife is going through trying to deal with her mother's health problems: those stresses are very real and present and not hypothetical at all. :straightface:

[Jess_cd32]

Since I am out of town this week, I have not been able to talk with my HR manager, I did email her about the comments that were relayed to me by a co-worker, who indicated support at that time. Since then he as reneged on his support. He is refusing to say he heard anything and refusing to say he spoke with me. I guess you learn who your friends are when you ask their support................

Before approaching HR I think you should have made your intentions known to this person beforehand and asked them for their support. I think he's feeling that he helped you by making you aware of this situation, but apparently had no intention of getting involved any further and wasn't asked prior if he would.

It seems that he really doesn't want to get in the middle of this and he does have that right not to, like it or not. I think out of respect he feels he should have been asked first rather than just thrown in the thick of it. Just my .02

If he had been asked prior and reneged, then that is no friend.

[MarcieM]

I would suggest, Marcie, that you do no good to other CDs by advising [-]caution[/-] fear as an option. We CDs have all had quite enough of that, and many of us have decided to let the fear go and live our lives fully. I think you do us no service by holding us back. If you can't give us courage, give us the respect of silence. What we're doing, we're doing for you too.
First, you're doing absolutely nothing for me, so don't even pretend to go there. Comments like this only make you look foolish.
Second, I'm not here to automatically respond with "You GO, Girl!" at every post.

I don't live in some fantasy land, I live and function in the real world. If more CD's used some common sense about living and functioning in the real world, maybe things would go a bit easier for them.

As Kandis has said:

Here we have a crossdresser, not a TS as Kimberly has stated she is NOT interested in transitioning at this time, who is dressing femme at work and has a person she works with that apparently has a problem with her doing so.

Let's break down the facts here.
At this point, Kimberly is basically a non-passable crossdresser. Some form of support from the employer may be available, but obviously there's not much support available from other employees. Did you really expect there would be?
Talk is cheap, but most "don't want to be involved" when the rubber meets the road, and you really can't blame them.

As I said before, sure...you can "make a stand" "be true to yourself" or whatever you choose to call it. But nothing is free in life. Everything comes with a price. The question you need to ask yourself is - are you willing to pay the price?

[Nicki B]

The question you need to ask yourself is - are you willing to pay the price?

My answer (and, I suspect Katie's) is yes - I can and do.

You don't seem willing to. That's okay - but you could stop knocking the rest of us who just get on and live our lives as we see fit? Or is there something important you're not telling us?


Edit - this thread (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99977) seems to apply.. :)

[MarcieM]

My answer (and, I suspect Katie's) is yes - I can and do.You don't seem willing to. That's okay - but you could stop knocking the rest of us who just get on and live our lives as we see fit?
I'm not knocking anyone. I'm allowed to state my opinions on this forum just as you are.

[cd_britney_426]

I'm not knocking anyone. I'm allowed to state my opinions on this forum just as you are.

I hate to say it but it does seem like you are. You made a statement that "passing is everything" and in the same point stated that you don't leave your apartment/home CDed. That is basically saying that you discourage CDing unless you are 100% passable or close to it. This is a support forum for crossdressers and I don't think that this type of discouragement is supportive in any way. Additionally, you also implied that merely having the HR department of a company confront a person who is gossipping about another employee will lead to a good chance of the employee being shot, stabbed, or hit over the head with a tire iron. I'm sorry but you do need to do a reality check here. If you want to stay inside of your home and live in fear then that is up to you but your statements here are not statistically realistic in even the most remote ways and you are cleary discouraging open and free crossdressing in a support forum for people who choose to do so. If everyone used your logic here, nobody would be leaving their house CDed so again you are being anti-supportive here in my opinion.

I also have enough personal experience with dealing with actual threats and actual dangerous people to make a logical assessment on what I'm dealing with when I go out in public (in drab or not). Believe it or not, the more exposure you have to the real world and the more real problems you do encounter, the less scary everything appears to be because now you have the first-hand knowledge and intelligence to sort out the real threats from the possible ones. Until you get real exposure first-hand and not just imagined in your mind or from what you hear on TV, you will never really get to experience real life. I'm going out dressed tonight BTW and I will certainly use caution. I'm not hiding behind my front door scared because of some imagined tranny-basher who probably isn't even there. As someone said one time to me, "Either you are in control of your life or someone or something else is." I refuse to let my own fears or others control my life. Britney

[Katrina82]

Thats pretty sad for him. I think people now will maybe loose respect for HIM because they know he talks about others behind their backs.

[Kimberly Marie Kelly]

a reputation for talking behind ones back and spreading rumours, it was one of the reasons I chose to call him on this incident. Though, I am not sure if he knows, it was I who reported it.

All I know at this time is that my HR manager has spoken with the two parties involved, the one who made the comments and my so called supportive co-worker. I suppose I will be called and informed with the results of the investigation soon.

I am usually one who ignores most comments that are directed to me, but this one I felt needed to be addressed. I have the support of the HR to appear the way I have been, as it does not violate the dress code and it was their suggestion if anyone made negative comments directly or indirectly, to come to them as it comes under the sexual harassment policy.

Like I said I chose this incident to report as it was one where I know the person is one who spreads gossip and rumours to hurt people. :battingeyelashes:

[MarcieM]

I hate to say it but it does seem like you are.
Nope.

You made a statement that "passing is everything" and in the same point stated that you don't leave your apartment/home CDed.
Passing IS everything. That is precisely why I don't CD in public.

That is basically saying that you discourage CDing unless you are 100% passable or close to it.
Nope. I don't care what anyone does. Just don't whine and complain about it when you are singled out, talked about, and maybe worse. Society is not required to accept your CD-ing.

Until you get real exposure first-hand and not just imagined in your mind or from what you hear on TV, you will never really get to experience real life.
It's not your job or anyone else's here to define what "real life" is.

I'm going out dressed tonight BTW and I will certainly use caution. I'm not hiding behind my front door scared because of some imagined tranny-basher who probably isn't even there. As someone said one time to me, "Either you are in control of your life or someone or something else is." I refuse to let my own fears or others control my life. Britney
If that's what you choose to do, that's great for you. Fear has nothing to do with this issue for me. I simply choose as many many others on this forum do, NOT to CD in public. It's about choices, not fear. But that really has nothing to do with the issue being discussed in this thread.

[sandra-leigh]

If that's what you choose to do, that's great for you. Fear has nothing to do with this issue for me. I simply choose as many many others on this forum do, NOT to CD in public. It's about choices, not fear.

In this thread, you have not mentioned any motivation other than fear for keeping CD'ing private -- but you have repeatedly, in this thread, listed possible physical harms. For example,


The "battle for freedom" won't mean a thing if some maniac pumps a few slugs from his 9mm into you.

If your points had been along the lines of, "If you CD in public, then you have to expect that people will talk, and you have to expect that some people will disapprove", then that would have been one thing, but you repeatedly explicitly or implicitly mentioned actual violence.



Here's the bottom line...society does not look favorably upon a feminized non-passable male in public like this. This individual will be singled out and harassed at almost every opportunity. You can say whatever you want, but that's pretty much the reality of this situation.

That is not "the reality of the situation" where I live. It probably isn't the reality of the situation where you live either, but I don't know where you live and I likely haven't visited your home-town myself to observe conditions there.

The "reality of the situation" in the city I live is that I can walk out on one of the busiest corners in the city as "a guy wearing a skirt" or "a guy wearing a dress", and be fairly sure that most people won't even bother to look at me, and that (providing it the clothes are not too immodest or too flashy) that most people who look at me will find the event less interesting than what-ever was already on their mind. What have I suffered from at that busy corner? One hard stare from a known sourpuss who has never been observed to smile, and one passing guy who said, "Nice dress!" in a tone that wasn't sarcastic (but his companions broke out in twitters after they passed me, appearing to laugh more at the fact that he'd talked to me than at the fact that I was wearing a dress.)

What have I suffered from as I walk around the malls or local supermarkets (large grocery stores) in a skirt and blouse? I have suffered grievously from people smiling affectionately at me or admiring my clothes or talking congenially to me.

Before I started cross-dressing (and I went public within a couple of weeks of starting), I was "just a customer" -- you know, someone passing through, you get them what they ask for and you take their money and make change and say "Have a nice day." Now that I'm a known cross-dresser, whether I am in drab or fully dressed, in those same stores I am now a person, remembered and welcomed back and talked to, sometimes teasingly scolded for not having been there for awhile, sometimes worried that something happened to me if I haven't been back for awhile.

Average rate of negative remarks or nasty looks when I go out completely Dressed: extremely low. Average rate of positive remarks when I go out completely Dressed: some pretty much every time. And no, that's not due to "fooling" anyone: there is something or other about my appearance (e.g., the shape of my nose or something that like) that makes it fairly easy for people who have met me as a guy before to recognize who I am when I am fully Dressed... and the way they respond is to come over and say that I look great.

Average rate of negative remarks or nasty looks when I go out "gender-bending" (e.g., a guy in a skirt): pretty low. Most people simply don't appear to notice. Even the children (renowned as a class for blurting things out) almost never say anything -- only once, in fact, and that small group wasn't being at all critical, just observational. Meanwhile I have had some lovely warm smiles from children.


This individual will be singled out and harassed at almost every opportunity.

This individual (me) has given the public many opportunities to harass them, and the public here grabs those opportunities by mostly not noticing at all, and by otherwise being welcoming.

But the public reacts to confidence and to happiness. Go out looking nervous or downcast and you will be picked out quickly: you will "move wrong" and "look like you don't belong" even if you are dressed identically to the next person. And what the public sees when I go out fully dressed or gender-bending, is someone who is happy and relaxed, not a threat at all. And there are literally scientific studies that being around happy people makes you happy: happiness is contagious, and people catch it from me when I go out in the clothes of my choice.

If you find the opposite, that going out "feminized" exposes you to harassment and ridicule or the like, then possibly it is the environment (some towns are more accepting than others), but possibly it is you, the way you act and move and so on: other people might be reacting to your body signals much more than to what you are wearing.



Passing IS everything.

Well, what, in more detail, do you mean by "passing" in this context? If I go out to the local mall as "a guy in a skirt" and a middle-aged woman comes up to me and congratulates me on having the courage to be myself (as did happen), then if that isn't "passing" then it's close enough for me! We aren't all here to be "replica women" (to paraphrase Blade Runner's Tyrel Corporation, "More woman than woman"): for some of us, "passing" is acceptance of who we are. Especially for those of us who are not situationally polarized as being "all male" or "all female" (at any one time), looking and moving and talking to be believed to be female by 99%+ of the population, is itself a form of lie, because we are part "male" and part female; for us. Feeling that we have to imitate female 100% is to perpetuate the belief that "there are men, and there are women, and they are completely different". It ain't necessarily so, and thus for many of us, "passing" is not about whether any particular person notices that we are male: it is about whether society accepts that it doesn't [U]matter[U], that society recognizes that there is a spectrum, not just two pigeon-holes.

[rickie121x]

.... When will people ever grow up.. :battingeyelashes: Kim - I think you will be even more happy if you were to lower your expectations a bit, 'cause I don't think it's gonna happen! :daydreaming:

[MarcieM]

It ain't necessarily so, and thus for many of us, "passing" is not about whether any particular person notices that we are male: it is about whether society accepts that it doesn't [u]matter[u], that society recognizes that there is a spectrum, not just two pigeon-holes.
You're entitled to whatever view you choose on this, and so am I.
But when you start "blurring the lines" that's when things start getting dangerous. Think about it.

[MarcieM]

And I do feel that you're doing it for all of us, because success is contagious. Not only will this individual be dissuaded, but others in the firm, hearing the result, may be encouraged to come out of their closets of fear. And then they pass the news on...
I think I heard the theme from "Bridge Over The River Kwai" playing in the background as I was reading this.

what a crock.

[Nicki B]

We aren't all here to be "replica women" (to paraphrase Blade Runner's Tyrel Corporation, "More woman than woman"): for some of us, "passing" is acceptance of who we are. Especially for those of us who are not situationally polarized as being "all male" or "all female" (at any one time), looking and moving and talking to be believed to be female by 99%+ of the population, is itself a form of lie, because we are part "male" and part female; for us. Feeling that we have to imitate female 100% is to perpetuate the belief that "there are men, and there are women, and they are completely different". It ain't necessarily so, and thus for many of us, "passing" is not about whether any particular person notices that we are male: it is about whether society accepts that it doesn't [U]matter[U], that society recognizes that there is a spectrum, not just two pigeon-holes.

:yt:
I would say passing and acceptance are different (and mutually exclusive) - but you're describing exactly what I've found, over the last eight years.


You're entitled to whatever view you choose on this, and so am I.
But when you start "blurring the lines" that's when things start getting dangerous. Think about it.

Dangerous? Rubbish. Certainly not IME.

Why don't you explain your experiences of others that have made you think that way?

[sandra-leigh]

But when you start "blurring the lines" that's when things start getting dangerous. Think about it.

Dangerous? In what sense? Remember you already stated that this issue is not about fear for you, so whatever danger you list in support of your previous statement will have to be one that does not have to do with some hypothetical physical danger. Are you talking "dangerous" as in "It could lead to the breakdown of civilization as we know it" (just like they said about Rock & Roll), or what?

If you are talking about physical danger then either you are being hypocritical about the issue not being about fear, or else you are splitting some hair pretty darn finely.

Your statement, as written, looks to me as if you are fear-mongering again.



You're entitled to whatever view you choose on this, and so am I.

Ah, that's not actually the case. This is a private web site, and First Amendment Rights, or the relevant Charter of Rights and Freedoms rights (Canada) do not apply for private property. We are "entitled" to express only whatever opinions the site owners and managers permit us to express, and there is even "prior restraint" in effect on the site (there are certain words that are automatically bleeped out.)

I'm not saying that the Management has anything to say about the opinions either of us has expressed here; I'm just pointing out that your repetitions of "you are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine" is not an accurate representation of the situation.

[Rachel B]

What exactly is "passing" anyways? Next time you go out look around at all the GG's and tell me how many of them actually pass!

If you want them to look like - I dunno, someone like Tricia Helfer - then I'd say not many GG's match up. If they were to look like Jo Brand (British Comedian and sorry Jo, but let's face it IMO you aint the prettiest leaf on the tree) then we'd all "pass"!

MarcieM, I'd say you have some valid points, but they are not well made.

Anyone who is deemed different by society is running the gauntlet of becoming the subject of abuse. And no matter what society does, now or in the future, be it acceptance or denigration, there will always exist an element who will never conform. We all must be aware of this, and never allow ourselves to become complacent. Nor should we allow these things to dictate what we do with our lives. After all, no point worrying about it till it happens is there?

To Kimberly51, having been down the HR route in a previous job (though not for CD'ing related stuff) I'd say be careful when you next go to work. Because in a weird sort of way YOU are now the tittle-tattler, and will be seen as someone who'll go running to HR every time something happens. This makes co-workers wary of you (from experience). Just go about like nothings happened and as has been said, clock in do the job and clock out till the dust (if any) settles.

Regards
Rachel

[Kimberly Marie Kelly]

Anyway a little update, my HR manager spoke with my supportive co-worker yesterday and he disavowed saying anything to me and doesn't recall any incident. I'm disappopinted with him, but now know I can't rely on him in the future for anything, changes the dynamics of our friendship somewhat. But my HR manager still wants to talk with me anyway, more likely to hear my side of the story firsthand. She has probably spoken with the other people and gauged their response's to her questions and now she wants to hear my side of the story and see my response's. All I can say to her questions is, "Why would I say something that I can't prove, unless I thought I had support".

Needless to say, This incident will be part of mine and their's permanent record, so if something like this happens again, it could cause more issues for them..then for me.. No matter what I believe I did the right thing. And I want to thank all of my Sisters for their encouraging words and thoughtful insights, but mostly I appreciate the encouraging words. Love Kimberly :battingeyelashes:

[Charisma]

Is any possible way of getting what this turkey is saying behind your back or not in your presence on audio tape? Might sound extreme but its like having a witness that will back you up. sort of a picture (audio tape) is worth a thousand words.

[Christinedreamer]

From what I have read here it seems to me that passing, acceptance etc is just as much attitude as appearance.

I have seen CDs who dressed beautifully but still had a large chunk of masculinity they held onto that telegraphed "Ignore whjat you see , I am a man."

I have seen very plain Janes who acted like charm school matrons.

I have seen CDs who looked all the while like they were ready to rumble. IMO they have the idea that they must be willing to fight to dress the way they want and opt to get nasty if called on the appearance.

If you act in such a bravado manner you will probably be called out. You don't have to be a Casper Milquetoast either.

When I have gone out I have been treated very nicely and I returned the pleasantries and indulged folks in the questions they posed. I did that with honesty and no hostile attitude. That response made the experience enjoyable for everyone.

Sure some giggled at my size and outfit, but they also saw that I was not a threat and after a few minutes listening to my answers to their questions all I got was respect for being an individual.

So I would caution those posting here with such strong and rather across-the-board negative attitudes that the hostility displayed here to those who politely disagree with you will also carry with you in the "real world". If it does you can rest assured that you will DRAW negativity to yourself; it will not go looking for you.

You might consider just walking up to him in front of others and say" You seem quite interested in me for some reason, but as I am sure you have heard before, "methinks thou dost protest too much"

[MarcieM]

You might consider just walking up to him in front of others and say" You seem quite interested in me for some reason, but as I am sure you have heard before, "methinks thou dost protest too much"
I agree. That's a good option. But I doubt you'll be able to get an internet connection from the ICU to post on this forum.

[Michelia]

Anyway a little update, my HR manager spoke with my supportive co-worker yesterday and he disavowed saying anything to me and doesn't recall any incident. I'm disappopinted with him, but now know I can't rely on him in the future for anything, changes the dynamics of our friendship somewhat. But my HR manager still wants to talk with me anyway, more likely to hear my side of the story firsthand. She has probably spoken with the other people and gauged their response's to her questions and now she wants to hear my side of the story and see my response's. All I can say to her questions is, "Why would I say something that I can't prove, unless I thought I had support".

Needless to say, This incident will be part of mine and their's permanent record, so if something like this happens again, it could cause more issues for them..then for me.. No matter what I believe I did the right thing. And I want to thank all of my Sisters for their encouraging words and thoughtful insights, but mostly I appreciate the encouraging words. Love Kimberly :battingeyelashes:


I wish you the best, Kim.

Sorry you had to go through this with your friend. I had the same issue at work once (non-CD related). Others also had issues with the problem person. I stepped up to the plate and had plenty of evidence. Two co-workers swore they would back me up. During the interviewing process, they said nothing.

It is something to keep in mind. Maybe this happens a lot?

[Kimberly Marie Kelly]

the whistle at a government job over some issue, he was told by his friends they would support him, but when it came time to back him up they all backed off and offered no support. My brother was run down by government politics, and was black listed for like 12 years now. They have kept him on the job but don't give him any real reponsibiltities.

Seems that friends rarely support you when you need them. They are too afraid to speak up, they are afraid to lose whatever they think they will lose.. in this case I have learned the same lesson. It's a shame when you find that your friends are two-faced and will abandon you in your hour of need. Then they come to you later and say sorry, but I couldn't risk supporting you as I could lose such and such.. :battingeyelashes:

[Nicki B]

Needless to say, This incident will be part of mine and their's permanent record, so if something like this happens again, it could cause more issues for them..then for me.. No matter what I believe I did the right thing.

The guy doing the original gossip is a jerk and that's unlikely to change - but the company needed to know if the comments were being made to people outside the company.

Now the company knows, leave it at that? Being perceived as oversensitive to 'banter' makes it difficult for others to work with you, if they feel they might need to tread on eggshells - so go out of your way to talk to people and come over as just the same as ever, to reassure them?

You need friends and allies - always.

[EryLynn]

Friends, co-workers, and generally anyone else other than family will usually support you... as long as there is no cost to them involved.

Sometimes, in their efforts at "due diligence", HR departments will proceed to document, in everyone's personnel file, many of these complaints. The end result is that when confronted with having a comment or complaint, "written in stone" in their personnel file, many find it easier to deny than to affirm it. Without affirmation, HR cannot proceed.

That ends up being an added "punishment" to the ones already being persecuted or oppressed.

Sad but true,
EryLynn

[Kimberly Marie Kelly]

resolution to this matter will be in another week, when HR will talk to me directly about the incident. Up to now communication has been thru email and phone.. Again I appreciate all the insightful thoughts and all the encouraging words of support. Love Kimberly :battingeyelashes:

[MarcieM]

Seems that friends rarely support you when you need them. They are too afraid to speak up, they are afraid to lose whatever they think they will lose.. in this case I have learned the same lesson. It's a shame when you find that your friends are two-faced and will abandon you in your hour of need. Then they come to you later and say sorry, but I couldn't risk supporting you as I could lose such and such..
I'm not sure why you would ever think you could require "friends" to accept/support your crossdressing. And you call them "two-faced" because they don't?
I don't blame them at all for not supporting you.
I don't know all the details of your work situation, but it seems that you're on your own, and you need to realize that and be solely responsible for your actions.
Go ahead on your own and pursue this alleged "harassment" if you feel that's what you should do. Just realize that when you go messing with someone's employment, things have a tendency to get very ugly.
I hope I'm wrong, but I have a real feeling that someone will end up in the hospital before everything is said and done in this issue.

[Kelli Michelle]

I'm not sure why you would ever think you could require "friends" to accept/support your crossdressing. And you call them "two-faced" because they don't?
I don't blame them at all for not supporting you.
I don't know all the details of your work situation, but it seems that you're on your own, and you need to realize that and be solely responsible for what your actions.
Go ahead on your own and pursue this alleged "harassment" if you feel that's what you should do. Just realize that when you go messing with someone's employment, things have a tendency to get very ugly.
I hope I'm wrong, but I have a real feeling that someone will end up in the hospital before everything is said and done in this issue.

Marcie, she is not requiring her friends to support her. How could anyone "require" something like that? She is correct to assume that if they are indeed her friends, they should offer her support. Anyone, could understand a hesitance to do so, though, since there is a perceived stigma attached to people who support CDing, gay lifestyle, and others. Still that hurts.

While it's true that violence can happen at any time, for any reason, and that one should always take precautions, it is less than realistic to suppose violence would happen in this particular case. unless you know more than what's been written of here. I am not sure where you are getting this feeling from.

Anyway, Kimberly, you are apparently doing what you feel you must, and I wish you the best.

:hugs:

[sandra-leigh]

I hope I'm wrong, but I have a real feeling that someone will end up in the hospital before everything is said and done in this issue.

That after having said,


Fear has nothing to do with this issue for me. I simply choose as many many others on this forum do, NOT to CD in public. It's about choices, not fear.

Perhaps this apparent contradiction might be related to



But when you start "blurring the lines" that's when things start getting dangerous. Think about it.

which statement you haven't happened to had time to clarify as yet.


To the naive reader, your several statements may perhaps give the impression that you are fear-mongering; as several of the posters in this thread don't "get it" (the non fear-mongering thing you are trying to say), explication would help.

[MarcieM]

She is correct to assume that if they are indeed her friends, they should offer her support
I disagree. They have zero obligation to offer him support on this issue.

To the naive reader, your several statements may perhaps give the impression that you are fear-mongering; as several of the posters in this thread don't "get it" (the non fear-mongering thing you are trying to say), explication would help.
You can label it however you want, it really doesn't bother me at all. Whoever don't "get it"...sorry but that's not my problem.
There's no fear-mongering to it. Maybe you could call it reality-mongering? This is the real world. Sometimes living in the real world can bite you in the ass. In these economic times, try getting someone fired and you're liable to find out about getting bit in the ass sooner rather than later.

[sandra-leigh]

In these economic times, try getting someone fired and you're liable to find out about getting bit in the ass sooner rather than later.

Perhaps I didn't read the various postings carefully enough: could you provide a quotation / link to somewhere in this thread (or any other posting on this system) in which Kimberly51 indicated that she wanted this person (or any other person at her workplace) to be fired? E.g., did I miss some subtext in this message of Kimberly's?



I told my HR rep that I don't have a problem with this employee, that he is entitled to his viewpoints, but when it it is extended and voiced to an outside service vendor that is when I need to talk to her. That it is unprofessional and possibly harmful to our companies image, I will let her proceed with the investigation of what happened.




Maybe you could call it reality-mongering?


Here's the bottom line...society does not look favorably upon a feminized non-passable male in public like this. This individual will be singled out and harassed at almost every opportunity. You can say whatever you want, but that's pretty much the reality of this situation.

Do you include your statement that "This individual will be singled out and harassed at almost every opportunity" in what you refer to as "reality-mongering" ?

Possibly conditions for CDs are harsh where you live. Where I live, here is a slice of reality:

Early yesterday afternoon, I changed into a long grey woolen skirt in a bar bathroom. Two guys in the bathroom saw me clearly; neither said a thing to me. Four guys just outside the bar door saw the skirt clearly; if they said anything, it wasn't in my hearing. I proceeded to walk a few long blocks along a busy road, and went into a woman's clothing store (Penningtons), where I was welcomed, complimented on my skirt, and assisted by a couple of SA's, including trying things on and them fetching alternate sizes for me and making some recommendations. There was one guy in the store waiting for his wife, and he didn't say a thing about me, at least not while he was in the store (I was within hearing range of him for the duration.) At check-out the SA asked for my store points card, expecting that I would have one (which I did), and bid me to come back again.

After that, I walked a couple of long blocks on a semi-busy road to a nearby major shopping mall, one considered to be the premiere shopping mall in the city, though it is perhaps not actually the largest. I passed a few people on the sidewalk along the way; the only interaction was that I was routinely panhandled for some change, exactly as would have happened if I had been dressed completely male.

Once in the mall, I went about my business shopping, my skirt in full sight of all of the clerks and shoppers in the stores and in the mall and food court. Total observed public response: a couple of mildly curious looks (from some senior citizens). One mid-20's woman might have pulled a friend aside and said "Did you see that guy?!", but the distance was far enough that she might have been saying something else completely, and they didn't turn and look over at me. When I was going down the escalator leaving, a youngish male behind me might have said "Huh", but the tone was more one of startlement, not accusatory and not directed at me.

The various store SAs that I interacted with treated me fine. And when I walked through the Power Tools and Audio/Video section of a department store to go to the washrooms that happen to be located in that corner, the all-male grouping of clerks just did the basic 2-second visual scan to be sure I wasn't carting unpaid merchandise into the washrooms and otherwise paid me no attention.


After the large mall was 30 minutes on the city bus to a local shopping mall near my home;

No-one on the bus cared how I was dressed.
The clerks at the bookstore I entered smiled pleasantly.
The owner of the higher-end bra store was slightly annoyed because I asked for bras that she considers to be too small for me (I was hoping for one that made me look good without any forms, but she thinks anything less than a D cup looks too small for me and thinks that the G cup looks good on me.)
The two guys at the cobbler didn't care about my skirt, but didn't have the insoles I needed; they took the time to tell me where I could probably find them.
The male owner of the ladies fashion store across the way again took time to try to understand my needs and make recommendations... unfortunate that his tastes run to more vivid than mine, but he did try to understand, and he asked me more carefully about what I was looking for so he would know what to buy in the future. And although I've always been in drab when I have dealt with him, he "slipped up" and several times referred to me as "she" in talking to his (female) partner.
The people at the drug store didn't care how I was dressed. The assistant druggist waved and said hello.
the stream of people I weaved through who were heading to the movie theaters didn't appear to be interested in anything other than making their movie on time
I've recently been dealing with a tailor at the mall, including getting a dress altered (which required showing them it on me so they could mark the proper places on the dress.) This time I took in some women's jeans I bought at one of the stores and put them on so they could see where to take in the waist. They didn't mind.


Total time out and about in busy public places while in my skirt: about 6 hours.

Did I mention that that second mall is only 1 mile in a direct line from home, a natural place for my neighbours to visit, not just a place far from home where no-one is likely to know me?

Well, that's my "reality-mongering" for the day: not even one outbreak of giggles in six hours. My skirt was, to most people, of considerably less interest than whatever they were already doing, and I got positive reinforcement from several people. And along the way I found a nice pair of pumps in my size (12), and a lovely brown silk blouse, amongst other items. Who knows what I could have accomplished if people hadn't been busy harassing me "at almost every opportunity" ??

[MarcieM]

Perhaps I didn't read the various postings carefully enough: could you provide a quotation / link to somewhere in this thread (or any other posting on this system) in which Kimberly51 indicated that she wanted this person (or any other person at her workplace) to be fired?
Just what do you think the motive is here? That's exactly what will happen if this person is charged with alleged "sexual harassment" (which is clearly not the case).

here is a slice of reality
I'm really not interested in your "slice of reality". That isn't the subject of this thread. Your experience is most assuredly not everyone's experience.

[cd_britney_426]

Marcie, your statements actually appear to be anti-transgender. You didn't even call Kimberly by the correct gender pronouns in one of your previous posts even though her screen name here is a female name and she believes that she may be a TS even though she has not begun an actual "official" transition. You keep stating that violence and even murder is practically guaranteed to anyone who simply ventures out CDed and isn't 100% passable and especially if they make any types of waves such as an HR complaint at work. You state your opinions as if they are facts but they are not facts at all. I have researched hate crimes statistics here in the U.S. with regards to trans people. I will not whitewash the fact that hate crimes are a serious concern and that trans people need to be especially careful. That being said, trans people--millions of them--go out in public every day whether they be CDs, TSs, or even just "gender benders" and there are no battles in the streets over this, bodies are not piling up on the sidewalks, etc. There is the occasional tragedy which hits the news which again does force us to be more careful but the "reality" that you speak of is not reality at all. You need to cite some actual facts here, otherwise your statements are simply your mere opinions. Your anti-transgender opinions will not be tolerated here. If you cannot even call a trans person here by the proper gender pronouns, I conclude that you are anti-transgender and further such posts will be reported to the moderators/admins.

As to "reality," I live in Arizona and just happened to go to a convenience store in a fairly rough area last night not only dressed in femme but wearing "nightclub" attire that would cause heads to turn even if a GG was wearing it. I had to run this errand after I left a nightclub so we are talking a 7-11 type of store in a bad neighborhood at 3 am with gangbangers loitering in the parking lot. Guess what? No threatening looks, stares, or comments. I simply got in line and nobody even noticed. The female clerk asked for my ID for a tobacco purchase and naturally she noticed then. She didn't even poke fun but simply smiled and I smiled back. A couple of men did kind of turn their heads and stare for a few seconds when I spoke to her and I believe my voice sounded more male than female. Even then, I had no way of knowing whether I was actually "clocked" by the other customers or if they were simply admiring the dress I had on. The gangbangers outside wouldn't even pay me a second look as I'm sure their drug deals were of much higher priority on their minds. No gun battles, no SWAT teams, no helicopters, and no bodies in the streets. Could someone have tried to kill me? Sure, but the chances of fatally slipping in the shower in my own home probably was more likely. I don't even live in a "liberal" or "accepting" state. This is ARIZONA where crime is very high, rural towns can be very "backwards," and even a lot of city people come from the "old traditions." Britney

[Michelia]

I am not a mod nor do I want to pretend to be.

Yet as my simple mind sees this, there are 5,000 views of this thread. Obviously it has garnered a lot of attention. It is starting to look like most of us have not joined in this discussion because it has degenerated into a tit for tat exchange by different personalities. I am all for discussion of subjects like this.

But in this case, I think the topic of interest is becoming diluted by a discussion that is not getting anywhere.

I will have to add my opinion for the sake of clarity. I believe Marcy will not listen to anyone or wants to think or reflect upon what others are saying. No one will change her mind. I also think she is becoming increasingly aggressive and dismissive of others' viewpoints. I also believe others have been patient in making their points and trying to lay out what I think are pretty reasonable positions.

Although I am sure everyone is interested in what happens with Kimberly's case, maybe she could just open another thread later and let us know what happens. I would not want to see her valiant efforts at work and her honest search for advice obscured in a thread that becomes a clash of personalities.

[MarcieM]

You didn't even call Kimberly by the correct gender pronouns in one of your previous posts even though her screen name here is a female name and she believes that she may be a TS even though she has not begun an actual "official" transition.
"may be a TS" ? A crossdresser is not a female, so my gender pronoun was correct.

Although I am sure everyone is interested in what happens with Kimberly's case, maybe she could just open another thread later and let us know what happens. I would not want to see her valiant efforts at work and her honest search for advice obscured in a thread that becomes a clash of personalities.
I agree. This thread has ran it's course.

[Nicki B]

..it seems that you're on your own, and you need to realize that and be solely responsible for your actions.

Sounds as if you're really talking about yourself. That's sad, because I fear you're running the risk of making that a self-fulfilling prophecy. :sad:


There's no fear-mongering to it. Maybe you could call it reality-mongering? This is the real world.

And yet for those of us who live in it, what you describe certainly is NOT reality? I've asked you quite a few times now to explain just what has caused you to talk like this - since you won't give any reason, one must assume it IS just fear that makes you post so aggressively? :strugglin

[Christinedreamer]

ATTITUDE speaks volumes. That chip on the shoulder is looking more like a tree trunk every post Marcie.

We all wish your fears could be allayed from our experiences as most of us have not had the hateful and physically dangerous things happen as you proffer to be not only possible but quite probable.

As you can see from my avatar, I am not the least bit passable and I am a full voiced bass singer in a choir so I have little hope of presenting anything even resembling a "typical" feminine voice. Yet with all that, I have NEVER found any hostility, hatred or danger in my forays into the "real" world.

As mentioned SEVERAL times by those MUCH more "out" than me, you seem to be creating a world that the rest of us -and we are many- have not run across.

Perhaps if you did not dress for a while but acompanied a few others who DID you may see where the attitude difference comes into play.

Watch the guys in a bar. Some are mean and ready to take on the world if someone looks askance at them. Others are feeling good, acting a bit silly and laughing. Which do you think will draw the most negativity from the others? The happy guy or the angry guy?

The same holds true in your case. If your attitude or body language telegraphs fear or anger you will atract the same.

This is called human nature.

I also agree that there is no more flesh on this horse's skeleton.

[Kimberly Marie Kelly]

heartfelt thank you, to all my sisters who offered their kind advice and words of encouragement. You all know who you are, you have given me support and encouragement and I would be proud to call you all my friends. As I won't be able to talk with my HR Manager till next Monday, I will not know the complete resolution to this incident till then. If this thread is closed, I will open a new one referencing this thread, to allow me to update my friends.

To some critics, I do indeed accept responsibility for how I dress and will accept the comments and ridicule, but sometimes you need to deal with certain people. Not all of the people but some, you need to pick your battle's. This is how change is brought about and for my friends here they understand. You can't just hide, be afraid and hope things change. You need to go out, learn, adapt and grow as a person.

As for supportive friends who withdraw their support, that always hurts. But, when they offer their support to your face and then several day's later say "I don't know what your talking about" and deny everything. That is wrong, but I will remain friends with him. As a loud critic said "he doesn't need to give his support", but he offered it and backed off, that hurts.

Again, I thank all my friends and they know who they are. You all may PM me later after Feb 16th to find out what the resolution of this thread will be..Or you can PM to say Hi anytime..

Love Kimberly, :battingeyelashes::battingeyelashes:

[cd_britney_426]

"may be a TS" ? A crossdresser is not a female, so my gender pronoun was correct.


No, you are actually being defammatory. It does not matter what one's genitals are or even per se what label YOU think fits them. If the individual presents in public as female, prefers to be called and/or treated as female, uses a female name (as is the case on THIS DISCUSSION BOARD), and identifies as female, they should be treated that way. Anything less is defammatory. I spend most of my day-to-day life presenting as male in drab but on THIS BOARD I use a female name, a feminine avatar, and I do go out in public from time to time presenting as female, with a female name, etc. I expect to be called and treated as a female on THIS BOARD as I do when I am out in public presenting that way. While I cannot control how others view or treat me in public places, this is a SUPPORT board where we respect each other's wishes. If you cannot show me and other transgender people on this board proper respect and educate yourself on the issues, I advise you to leave the board and go somewhere else. You are offending me and a lot of people here. If you don't have any supportive purpose here, you are trolling. Britney

[EryLynn]

Like long hair and mini-skirts in the sixties, high heels and see through blouses in the seventies and then earrings for men in the 80's ... society is always constantly evolving and changing what is and isn't "accepted".

There will always be someone who opposes the "relaxation" of mores and will cite all the dangerous, evil, and life-threatening possibilities that could ensue if they are accepted commonly.

I recall my Dad having fits when my hair would touch my collar, and the disgust in his voice when I bought my first pair of hip-hugging jeans and high heel dancing shoes.... all extremely fashion-forward for men in the early 70's.

I met with some of the same jeering remarks as Marcie claims will happen.... at first, then they faded away and I don't remember noticing when they stopped. The memories I have are that as more and more people either opted to wear their hair longer, or wear hip-hugging jeans, or high heel shoes that less and less people commented, or even made any notice of it. After a while it wasn't noticeable as different behavior.

Marcie is just being an old curmudgeon. I don't mean it as an insult, but the probabilites are that Marcie will take it as such. I can't help that, and as such it will be up to Marcie to deal with the problem as, as she has stated, it isn't mine to worry about.

While 25 or so years ago we were wondering WHICH ear was OK to pierce, nowdays they sport two, or even three... on the same ear. Heck, has anyone noticed the large "hoop" ear-RING? Some of those folks undoubtedly have heard comments such as Marcie espouses.... and probably just ignored them.

Don't give in to the fear. Whether it is your imagination, or the loud rantings of the curmudgeon. If you let them affect your behavior, you will have acquiesced to be under their "control".

While it won't happen this week, and possibly not this year, the time is coming when some enterprising young man will say "Why CAN'T I wear a skirt?", and he'll wear it with such aplomb and self-assuredness that others will soon follow.

A tidal wave is just a ripple .... magnified.

EryLynn

[Shelly Preston]

This Stops Now

Please stop with the cutting remarks to each other

I hope everyone here remembers this is a support forum

Yes we can all have differences of opinion but we can still be polite to each other

I don't want to close this thread because it is an important topic

Oh and for anyone who has a problem with a staff decision contact a moderator

[Kimberly Marie Kelly]

As my co-worker friend who said he'd support me backed out and denied saying anything, I really have no foot to stand on as I did not hear the comments directly.

Anyway, I told her what was told to me by Johnny, my co-worker friend. I further stated I did not want the other employee fired etc as he is entitled to his opinion, my HR manager said he may be entitiled to his opinion but he should restrain his comments, especially when given to outside vendors. She agreed with me that the comments, beside's being demeaning to me can also impinge on the companies reputation. She asked if anyone else may have heard the comments, I mentioned that if the DP manager was in his office at the time he may have heard the comments. But I stated since I was not present I cannot say with 100% certainty.

She further stated that she will talk with the offending employee and will try to determine if comments were made regarding me and to remind him of the sexual harassment and diversity policies. A notation will be put in everyones file to document the investigation. She further reminded me that no employee should be making derogatory comments to me, that I have the right to work in a comfortable enviroment. She also reiterated the companies dress code to let me know what is acceptable attire for either Male or female employee's to wear. She mentioned that I could wear either attire as long as it met the companies dress code. I am going to follow-up with her to see what she meant, to be sure. It may be a green light to dress in skirts or dress's, but I will see. Otherwise, it was a good meeting.

Kimberly :battingeyelashes:

[cd_britney_426]

Good to hear. It sounds like everything is working out. I would still recommend keeping a lid on things unless necessary. In other words, I wouldn't gossip about anyone at work to anyone at work including to even the workers who appear supportive. I doubt you do this anyway as it sounded like they came to you first anyway instead of you going to them. Obviously, the offending employee won't be happy about being talked to by HR but I have turned people in myself to HR over things and they usually get over it. Most companies have anti-retaliation policies meaning that if the offending employee becomes threatening or harrassing due to your complaint that it would result in immediate termination. Usually people don't want to lose their jobs so they either wisen up and quit the behavior and realize that what they did was stupid or at the very least they still don't like you but stay out of your way. I would pay close attention to the goings on at work for the next few weeks, though, just to make sure that nothing does escalate. If it doesn't, it usually will die down and eventually go away. Again, this is assuming that the person actually wants to keep his job. Britney