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When in the closet we have a persona we project, the not-a-CD-Man or Cisgender Man (Cis means opposite to Trans, and while CDs are CisSexual we are TransGender).
So what kind of Cis-Man do you show to the world?
Are they hyper-masculine or effeminate?
Homophobic? Transphobic? Or an ally and friend of Gays and TGs?
So what kind of Man do you show to the world?
My persona, remembering that I only have one, is kind, gentle, empathetic, courteous, caring, long-suffering, forgiving ... the stereotypical pisces personality.
:)
But ocassionally and unexpectedly, the fish will turn and swim the other way, and people are left wondering ...
I can be a sh*t! Don't annoy me!
:angry:
I am semi-masculine to some people and semi-feminine to others. I'm LGBT friendy and open to heterosexual and homosexual relationships.
Me, it's who i am!!!!!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by battybattybats
Looking at my nails, earrings, shaved legs, etc., one might think me a bit effeminate. If, however, I were judged on my trade, my hobbies, and my attitudes, I believe I'd be found hyper-masculine. So both, I guess. Maybe that's how I maintain balance. Yin-yang, and Oriental gobbledygook.Quote:
Originally Posted by battybattybats
I'm neutral, like Switzerland. Nutball individualist that I am, I take people one at a time. Some gay people are cool. Others piss me right off. I won't participate in others' prejudiced rantings, but I also won't condemn them for having their own opinion, which they have a right to. If they want mine, I'll share it. Sometimes even if they don't....Quote:
Originally Posted by battybattybats
But I don't have to pretend to be a guy. I don't pretend anything any more.
I Don't pretend to be anyone but myself.
effeminate ally.:battingeyelashes:
ps I'm not in the closet
so what kind of man do you pretend to be batty?
I don't PRETEND to be a man when I don't happen to be wearing a dress. I'm a man who enjoys wearing a dress and associated finery. All the padding, stuffing, tucking, implanting, snipping, and chemicals in the world isn't gonna change that. I can pretend to be a lady, and be quite good at it, but, at the end of the day when reading the "bottom line" I'm still a man.
Now, having said that, what sort of personna do I project on a regular basis? Mostly an understanding person who doesn't go out of their way to act "militant" toward or for any one group, but would rather go about their own business without confrontation of any sort.
Thats a fair question. (assuming you meant CIS-man as per my question)Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheila
These pics will show how close to 'cisgender' my regular 'male' expression is.
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...ad.php?t=89282
Though the last few months I've been wearing more purple and dark reds for lipstick. And dark red or a glossy metal purple nail polish.
And yes, thats what I'm wearing doing my weekly shopping.
So I'm not in the closet as cisgender anymore. My most male presentation is still Transgender even though i have only come out formally as a crossdresser to family and friends and all the people who were at the local Womens Comedy Festival or who may have seen me walking to and from my Goth friends place. But being a rural area, knowing Gays and Lesbians who've been bashed and having suffered enough violent assaults for one lifetime already I'm being cautious with how femme i am in public.. shifting it by degrees gradually adjusting the community to me :)
I advocate for human rights locally, always speak out against homophobia and transphobia, have Gay and Lesbian friends locally that I look out for both out and closeted, I've outed myself to my local MP and members of the government in letters on TG and non-TG issues.
Now as some people have missunderstood what I said let me remind you all.
I didn't say people were pretending to be men. I said pretending to be a Cis-Man and what kind of man they were showing to the world.
If you are a CD and a man you are not a Cisgender Man but a Transgender Cissexual Man. But if you are closeted the man people see is that of a cis-man which you are not.
Have i explained that enough yet? All CDs are Transgender (not neccessarily Transsexual!). No CD is Cisgender. But when fully closeted we are giving the appearance of being Cisgender.
I never said anyone was not a man.
Batty sorry but to me you are displaying locally outwardly as goth, not necessarily transgendered, so it does not follw that you are not in the closet still as cis genderedQuote:
Originally Posted by battybattybats
I to have done & continue to do these things, it does not make me transgendered [/QUOTE]Quote:
Originally Posted by battybattybats
Do you realise hoe condesending statements like these come across as ?Quote:
Originally Posted by battybattybats
I asked the question on the quote belowQuote:
Originally Posted by battybattybats
and the pretend was taken from the thread headingQuote:
Originally Posted by battybattybats
Much of Goth culture is Transgender. If it's outside traditional gender expression then it's transgender.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheila
I didn't say that made me Transgender. That was answering my own questions about our out attitudes to homophobia and transgender etc. You were wanting me to answer to my own question weren't you?Quote:
I to have done & continue to do these things, it does not make me transgendered
It was asked as a genuine question without the emphasis you placed upon it (I was exasperated that people had missread my clear emphasis of CIS-man true but nonetheless that was not written in or with a condescending intent), though of course tone rarely carries well in text.Quote:
Do you realise hoe condesending statements like these come across as ?
Though perhaps I overestimate peoples reading on many subjects or quick grasp of some ideas and maybe should have written a longer post more fully explaining the Cis term?
Yes. You took two distinct sentences with seperate meanings and conflated them with a resultant meaning far more potentially insulting than any condescention.Quote:
I asked the question on the quote below
and the pretend was taken from the thread heading
I hope that was inadvertant on your part.
I actually found that to be a fair question, in which Batty was making sure she had explained herself properly. o_O'Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheila
Do you realise hoe condesending statements like these come across as ?Quote:
Originally Posted by battybattybats
Batty, on the flipside of your question, I don't really portray being cis-gendered. People may think and assume that I am an ordinary and cis-gendered woman but they clearly wouldn't get me even if I told them differently.
It is a very interesting question... and I'd like to answer if I may about the boy I used to be... The one that was a shell... a piece of armour... a shard of masculinity... Call the indulgence therapy if you might Batty...
He was artistic, quiet, shy, considered by a few to be a genius (lol... very kind but sadly untrue), self-destructive, incapable of maintaining friendships, arrogant, petty, angry, violent, at times vicious, prone to bouts of self harm, a virtual alcoholic, nihilistic, utterly empty, a total void. Not a very happy human being at all...
Interestingly my best friend who is struggling with Lisa said he was jealous of the old me as I was handsome, likeable, was loaded, had beautiful women, drove expensive exotic cars and had a full head of hair (He's quite bald)... Just goes to show how well I hid the pain that was tearing me apart daily... Hmmmm... It is difficult to look people that have known me man and woman in the eye and tell them just what a lie my whole life with them was back then.
End of interruption... I just felt the need to write that out of my system... sorry... I''ll let you get back to your thread.
Lisa x
Quote:
Originally Posted by battybattybats
No Batty it was quite deliberate and they are not conflatedto me or several others I have spoken with :straightface:Quote:
Originally Posted by battybattybats
Transgender (pronounced /trænzˈdʒɛndər/, from (Latin) derivatives [trans <L, combination form meaning across, beyond, through] and [gender <ME <MF gendre, genre <L gener- meaning kind or sort]) is a general term applied to a variety of individuals, behaviors, and groups involving tendencies that diverge from the [SIZE="3"]normative gender role (woman or man)[/SIZE] commonly, but not always, assigned at birth, as well as the role traditionally held by society.Quote:
Originally Posted by battybattybats
Transgender ...... [SIZE="3"]is the state of one's "gender identity" (self-identification as woman, man, or neither)[/SIZE] not matching one's "assigned sex" (identification by others as male or female based on physical/genetic sex). "Transgender" does not imply any specific form of sexual orientation; transgender people may identify as heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, pansexual, polysexual, or asexual. The precise definition for transgender remains in flux, but includes:
"Of, relating to, or designating a person whose identity does not conform unambiguously to conventional notions of male or female gender roles, but combines or moves between these."[1]
"People who were assigned a sex, usually at birth and based on their genitals, but who feel that this is a false or incomplete description of themselves."[2]
"Non-identification with, or non-presentation as, the sex (and assumed gender) one was assigned at birth."
I fail to see where gothism is mentioned in the transgender scale
A link to a definition of[SIZE="4"]GOTHISM [/SIZE]where I was unable to spot a reference to gothism being outside traditional gender expression and it then being classed as transgender.
A link from the same place on the meaning of [SIZE="4"]CIS[/SIZE] again Gothism appears not be be there
Why all the freakin labels? Does it really matter? Not to me. Every now and then I am Jenny... A loving and caring woman. Most of the time my male self. Still a loving a caring man. Not overly masculine, but not femme either.
So what?
You missed Batty's point entirely, Sheila...
You asked me what kind of Man i pretended to be wheras i was asking people what kind of cis-men they were pretending to be. In other words you are implying that I am not a man. Something which, depending on my view of being a man, could be quite an insult.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheila
Which is what your now saying you intended???
See the operative difference between the two terms now? And hence why replacing one for the other changes the meaning? Or have I failed to explain the Cisgender term to you sufficiently? Or did you try to insult me?
I never said it was. I said much of Goth Culture is Transgender. Not a form of Transgender is Goth. Goth culture has been TG accepting for a long time (couple examples here http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...d.php?t=106385 ) And with man-skirts, guys in make-up heaps of androgyny and a celebration of the effeminate male Transgender has been part of Goth Culture for a very long time. And Emo too.Quote:
I fail to see where gothism is mentioned in the transgender scale
It's a subculture not an 'ism' (one I've lived in before it was named Goth I might add!). And the acceptance of gender non-conformity and various sexualities goes back to i's origins and even antecedants. But your attempts to insist i'm somehow being cisgender are pointless. All that matters is that people in my area see it as not binary gender expression. That is the case. And whether i'm trying on high-heled knee high boots in K-Mart or exhibiting a self portrait with poetry about violence aganst feminine males in the local art competition or discussing eyeliner with the girl at the chemist while buying red lipstick it's pretty clear.Quote:
A link to a definition of[SIZE="4"]GOTHISM [/SIZE]where I was unable to spot a reference to gothism being outside traditional gender expression and it then being classed as transgender.
I don't think i did, if i have then several others have as well :straightface:Quote:
Originally Posted by The Gas Man Cometh
The 'pretence' is often instinctual - we've been conditioned to disguise ourselves from a very young age, so it takes no thought..
But I also think people's external perceptions (nothing I do at all) play a big part? How they see and react to me is often very different, although I feel (and am often acting) the same?
As a girl, I'm a tomboy - as a boy, I'm fairly metrosexual - but my body isn't, and that's what people react to primarily, what they see and assume from that? :sad:
Edit - Sheila - I don't see what you're taking offence at? :strugglin
She made a general statement that much of Goth culture is TG, and then an entirely different statement about the definition of transgender. The two sentences are not interconnected and she never implied that Goth was synonymous with TG!Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheila
Really ..........Quote:
Originally Posted by The Gas Man Cometh
Quote:
Originally Posted by battybattybats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheila
Yes really. In her sentence, "If it's outside traditional gender expression then it's transgender."
The "It's" refers to androgyny or acts of gender neutrality.
Nothing to do with Goth. They are separate statements. She pointed out the fact that many Goths are TG but not all are. Once again, she never implied Goth and TG was synonymous.
I agree! All these labels and -isms, -ists, and -phobias that I see thrown around do more harm than good. In some cases they have caused a rather terrible thing to occur here in as much as they have lead to anger and division among us as people.Quote:
Originally Posted by JennyS.
As a person, I just want to be. I just want to wear the clothes and makeup that I like to wear. I my actions are a little more masculine than you'd expect when I'm wearing a skirt, or a little more feminine than you'd expect when I'm in a suit and tie, so freakin' what. As I said in another thread, in a sense I actually wish that the term crossdresser did not exist, because in my mind it sets me apart for doing something that is simply a part of me that is a normal as tree being a tree or a leopard being a leopard.
I just want to listen to music that I like. I want to allowed to befriend any and all people, and to choose to NOT befriend some, as is my right without being told that I am whatever-ist or guilty or whatever-ism.
It is my right as a human being, as a part of natural law, to do all of this, and not have it minutely dissected and labeled and placed on a shelf in a model fashion.
Huggles
Toni-Lynn
That's how I read it.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Gas Man Cometh
Remember, folks, this is never a perfect means of communication? :idontknow:
Toni - isn't it obvious why Batty is asking?Quote:
Originally Posted by Toni_Lynn
Quote:
Originally Posted by battybattybats
I think your use of word "pretend" is what is a little off. The way I have seen it is on here people are who they are and don't pretend to be anything else. It almost comes across to me and you are saying the men on her are pretending to be woman. To me I find it sick when someone tries to be someone there are not whether its a guy trying to be macho to show off or a girl trying to be all prim and proper. Thing is people can tell when you are trying to hard to be something your not, so just be yourself.:2c: