Is the crossdresser community wierd? (For Lauren's leaving)

It is sad to see Lauren deciding to leave this forum and stop dressing for a while. I think that she made many insightful observations about the crossdressing community in her post.

Although I agree that I see many self-centered crossdresser, I don't quite agree with you that crossdressing is the cause. It is just that these people are self-centered people in their own nature. If they happened to be into motorcycles, they will be self-centered bikers.

Crossdressing just happens to exaggerate the conflict in life with family. It is in-denyable that crossdressing is different from motocrossing, because crossdressing touched a deep issue - men and women. That is one of the foundations of family - men and women in a sexual sense.

Then there is another foundation of family - lover, caring, and tolerance. Usually (in the most common cases of heterosexual partners used as example here, other cases are the same), these two foundations are aligned: an woman likes a man as a man, and loves him as her SO. But when the man started crossdressing, these two foundations become conflict of each other.

Some women are more into the "men" part, and they found it hard to accept. Some are more into the "caring" part, they found it more tolerable. Some care about both foundations very much so they flucturate from side to side.

The men crossdressers, as the starting point of the conflict, reacts differently. The lucky ones gets the more tolerable wife, and are more focus on dealing their internal guilt and the society prejudice. The more self-centered ones, invoking the "caring" clause of the relationship, and try to coarse their SO's into accepting. This usually ends up in deteration of the relationship. The more "considerate" ones, acknowledging both the two foundation of the relationship, usually take a middle line and trying to find a balance.

And that is a hard balance to make. If the SO is also an considerate person, two of them can navigate the difference and have give-and-take here and there. Occationally there is conflicts but that's part of life. If the SO is a "self-centered" person, the crossdresser may be driven into a "guilt" and "denied" saddened mental state. Some people may end in that state for very long period of time (compared to the male "self-centered" cases which have more chance ending up in seperation, because there is also social enforcement aspect against the men on that).

You see, crossdressing is fun, and it really forces you to think about what life is, what the society is, and what you are. The crossdresser community is just a reflection of the larger society.

I think you got it right Leslie. Some crossdressers are definately wierd, but in the main we are not. Not sure that the rest of society would agree with trhat satement though :)

That's definitely a clear way to put it.

I'd add some bits about projection, and the changes people go through in adult life. Sometimes people tend to think they stop emotionally growing, or are supposed to stop growing, after their bodies stop. Self-centered crossdressers can grow to be considerate.

Leslie,

Your post is very thoughtful and points out many of the different issues for CDs and their SOs. Because there are no cookie cutter molds for people and relationships we all face different issues with our lives.

I wish it were easier for us but I agree with you--it can be fun and it does force you to think a lot about yourself, society and how you want to live your life.

Hi Leslie,

I think that a lot of us might appear to be self-centered because we are really working hard at becoming the women we all would like to be. It is different for all of us. We are starting from different places and hoping to end up at different places.

We are on a "crossdressers" website so almost everything talked about on here will be related to our "crossdressing" activities not the other things we do with our life.

I for one do have a life outside of what I post on this site. I have a career, a family, friends, hobbies and interests (other than crossdressing) and I am actively involved in my community (I've served on the City Council and various government related boards and commissions for over a decade).

If what you have experienced here has made you think about you particular situation and you have come to the conclusion that you have been too selfish then you are probably right.

We all have to analyze where we stand and what we do and how often we do it.

I think the key here is balance. We have to constantly balance everything in our lives and make sure we aren't going too far in any one direction. The difference between an alcoholic and the average person that drinks socially is "balance". They have lost the balance in their lives and drinking is too much of their focus. Anything you do to excess is probably a bad thing. If your crossdressing is taking over your life and you have become a "dress-aholic" then maybe you need to at least slow down if not quit.

For me at least, this isn't something that I can quit and I don't want or need to quit. I have found a way to balance it with everything else in my life.

Kisses,

Allie

Lauren's post struck me as a little odd. I would think that as crossdressers that any of us would have thicker skins than that (if you stick around long enough anywhere - unless you're a lurker - that's just the way it is on forums). It seems that she got upset over what a few people said, and then she listened to a few other people say that what we have might be an addiction and said, "Wow, that sounds like me!" It reminds me of the time I went through my pathophysiology class. At the beginning of the class, the instructor told us - heck, even the textbook told us - that we may experience some of the same symptoms listed and that it didn't necessarily mean that we had those maladies. There is no substitute for good diagnostic tests. In our case, if you think you have an addiction, go to a counselor trained in that area. Self-diagnosis is always a bad thing.

To me, hearing someone say that crossdressing is an addiction speaks more to that person's opinion and level of acceptance to their own condition than mine.

Kathi

Anyone that quits CDing is PROBABLY punishing themselves!:sad:
We ALL have different reasons for doing that!

Anyone that quits CDing for their SO is DEFINITELY punishing themselves. But, in the LONG run, they'll most likely end up,
PUNISHING THE SO, TOO!:doh:

Sorry for that news, but I THINK that's how it works!:eek:

Doc Robby, when I quit CD'ing some years ago, I was not punishing myself or my dear wife! I had very valid, at least to the two of us, reasons for doing it! But maybe I was punishing her, because she is the one that got Stephanie started again!

I have never thought of myself as being self centered, nor have I ever been accused of being so! I am very active in my community, my church and in every other way that I can be. I guess that is one of the main reasons why my "Post" count is as low as it is! I don't spend that much time one the Forum, and don't find that many threads worthy of a response! That doesn't mean that I am a snob, or anything like that. It just means that the particular thread doesn't interest me enough to post! I do agree with Leslie that CD's that are self-centered are not that way because of being a CD, but because they just are self-centered!

There definitley are some wierd Crossdressers on this Fourm! One only has to read the threads to make that detirmination. But this is a free country, Thank God, and our Mods keep it clean!!:2c:

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Originally Posted by LeslieSD

It is sad to see Lauren deciding to leave this forum and stop dressing for a while. I think that she made many insightful observations about the crossdressing community in her post.

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[SIZE="2"]I agree, it is sad.:sad: I didn’t know her, but I miss her already…[/SIZE]

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Although I agree that I see many self-centered crossdresser, I don't quite agree with you that crossdressing is the cause. It is just that these people are self-centered people in their own nature.

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[SIZE="2"]Everyone is self-centered to a degree. We only have so much time in our lives, and much of it is spent wondering how to best use that time. There are no easy answers, either. Each individual must decide what path to follow – call it “The profession of being.”[/SIZE]

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The lucky ones gets the more tolerable wife, and are more focus on dealing their internal guilt and the society prejudice. The more self-centered ones, invoking the "caring" clause of the relationship, and try to coarse their SO's into accepting. This usually ends up in deteration of the relationship. The more "considerate" ones, acknowledging both the two foundation of the relationship, usually take a middle line and trying to find a balance.

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[SIZE="2"]Here’s a thought – how about being your own SO? Maybe that’s so obvious that nobody has mentioned it before. I know, we all need the love and support of others, but how about being your own girlfriend?[/SIZE]

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You see, crossdressing is fun, and it really forces you to think about what life is, what the society is, and what you are. The crossdresser community is just a reflection of the larger society.

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[SIZE="2"]I couldn’t agree more…[/SIZE]

Leslie,
I feel very honored that you would create a thread based on the Alternate Route thread. Thank you for your additional thoughtful insights into who we are, our relationships with ourselves and others, and your caring about my future.

I think I may have left a couple of things open to interpretation which I should clear up.

I am not leaving the forum. In my first follow-up post in the Alternate Route thread (post #5) I wrote "I will be stopping by the site from time to time to see how folks are doing, and enjoy the thoughtful and caring comments members like you provide." Sorry that I did not include that in the original post, and that I left the impression that I was leaving the forum.

It is true; I made the decision to stop dressing for a while. I have packed, but not purged. It is a personal decision, and one which does not reflect on anyone else in the forum, or their behavior. Will I ever put on my panties and skirts again, and either in private or public become Lauren again? Don't know. Chances are that I will, based on statistics and behavioral studies, but it is too soon to know for certain. I may be that unique individual who defies the odds. We'll see. I'll be fine either way.

Whatever I do, it will be right for me. Maybe not right for anyone else, but that is the beauty of our nature. As I wrote in the Alternate Route post "I have enjoyed crossdressing, and would never ask anyone else to give it up." I am a crossdresser who has chosen not to dress so I can work out some basic issues which my crossdressing has brought forth. I have received quite an outpouring of support, and there have been many who have expressed similar concerns about how crossdressing interweaves with their lives.

Ultimately, I am responsible for my behavior. I found in the forum several issues which caused me concern. Within any large group of individuals there will be selfishness and dishonesty, and there will be those caught in addictive cycles. Crossdressers do not appear to me to be different from the bulk of any society when it comes to these characteristics; some exhibit and are driven by them more than others, some lead perfectly happy and balanced lives. Yet, apparently I did touch some nerves there, and that is fine. I take no offense when folks feel they need to defend a certain position or viewpoint. The forum is an interesting mirror, from both sides. It is a forum, indeed, and that is why we are here: to share our thoughts and experiences.

I think as humans, we are flawed by the nature of our existence. Not as crossdressers, but as humans. I haven't yet met anyone who is perfect, but my sense is that this group of totally weird folks is for the most part doing the best they can to lead decent, caring, and happy lives. Me, included. I have read lots of posts over the last few years, made some observations about some choices I had made, and it bothered me. As I looked forward, I wished to make some different choices, with the hope of getting different results. Some of those choices are centered around crossdressing, and that is the part I have shared with this forum. Yes, I am taking an alternate route, one not often discussed, yet do not feel alone as I move forward.

Leslie, and all of you, thank you for sharing your thoughts. I wish you well in your lives, and choices, whatever they may be. Many thanks.

Lauren

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Originally Posted by LeslieSD

Although I agree that I see many self-centered crossdresser, I don't quite agree with you that crossdressing is the cause. It is just that these people are self-centered people in their own nature. If they happened to be into motorcycles, they will be self-centered bikers.

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I am more self-centered as a cross-dresser... but that's not necessarily bad.

A few years I pretty much collapsed from stress. I was very sick; I'm am still working on recuperating.

One of the important things that I realized (when I was able to think again) was that my life was seriously out of balance, and that if I wanted to get better, I would have to change some important things about my life. And for me, one of the things I would have to change the most was to stop running myself to the ground by taking responsibility for doing everything that had to be done (because it was there, needed to be done, and no-one else was doing it). I needed more "me" time, more time spent on doing things for myself, more time allowing myself to feel and express my emotions, more time spending time with people (preferably in person) and less time working alone on the computers.

And as I was starting to recover a bit from my acute sickness, I realized that I was a cross-dresser -- and to be clear, there were signs of cross-dressing in me before my acute sickness, but I hadn't recognized them. (There were signs of my illness a decade before it became acute, but I didn't recognize those signs either -- and neither did the doctors that I had some specific points checked out with.)

Even with the medications, I still felt pretty low and confused a lot of the time, but I found that cross-dressing was one of the few things that I could actually initiate (Depression plays havoc with initiative!!), and that when I went out cross-dressed, about 3/4 of an hour after I managed to get myself out the door, that I was feeling clear-headed and "normal" -- far far better medicine than any of the drugs I was taking.


As my relationship with my wife became more strained (and the base issues had been present in our relationship for a long time; cross-dressing was only a "contributing factor"), acknowledgment of myself as a cross-dresser and as transgendered, became a rock at my back, a place that I couldn't be pushed beyond. When someone close to you has significant difficulties in their own life, their processing of those difficulties can "pull you in", taking you down with them, unless you have an anchor of your own. Self-protection, self-preservation -- without it, we would both have been swept away.

And yet from another perspective, clinging to a foundation that is about "you" could be interpreted as being selfish. But I had been clinging to "us" for many years, and that hadn't worked out -- things didn't start to work out until I started talking about my needs, and gave my wife space to talk about her needs. My wife didn't know about my needs and hopes: I had been selective in what I would say and what I would explore internally for the sake of "us"... and getting more and more internally unhappy at the disconnect, at the lack of "me" in the "us" we were mutually constructing.

Were there times when I was... for lack of better phrase... "selfishly selfish"? Probably. Were there times when I was essentially saying to myself, "I'm going to do this whether my wife likes it or not!" ? Yes, probably many. On the other hand, if one only does those things that one knows other people will approve of (or not mind), then one is constructing one's identity based upon what one believes about the other people, not based upon what is generated within oneself.

There are two major ways that people construct their identities: "external construction", which is centered upon how other people react (or are considered likely to react) to one's actions -- and "internal construction", which is from within oneself (though informed by one's thoughts and life experiences.). I have always been an "internal construction" person, acting according to my conscience even if the cost is unpopularity. Ah, but where is the boundary between "internal construction" and "selfish" ?

I think that some here are what you call self centred because underneath it all, there is a male with a testosterone driven singlemindedness. The more I read this forum, the more I see a group of people here who have a very male way of trying to be female.

I think the OP made a good observation, that if the male obsession is bikes, or model trains or something like that, then your SO might cope, while if it's CDing, it goes to the core of the relationship.
But overall I think that having these obsessions is typical male and usually hard to understand for most females and will often put strain on a relationship.

It would be interesting to hear from the FtM side of the aisle on this one, as what I think we're discussing here is mainly MtF crossdressing, right?

Hi Lauren,

Thanks for your follow up. I originally saw you thread and left a message there sharing my thoughts. The reason I open up a new thread is that while I was writing the reply in your thread, it insipred me to think about how "self-centerness" would come into play in a crossdresser's relationship, and how that could reflect to the repeating theme we saw here.

The ultimate motivation for me to start this thread is hope to share some of my thoughts that might bring a bit insight into why our relationship with our SOs is that way, and how we could make it better.

Everyone here envys the ones with "supportive" or "encouraging" SOs. My SO is "tolerating" but not "supporting". I know it is easy to blame it as "if you love me, you love me as a whole who I am". But logically it plays the other way too, "if I love her and be willing to give my whole life for her, why not crossdress, which is only part of my life". There are a lot of internal exploration on "was she too self-centered" and "was I too self-centered", or we are just normal but how can we find a happy medium.

Lauren, sorry to hijack your thread, and I am sure you are making a decision that is best for you. Nobody can say anything on your decision.

With this thread, I just wanted to share a few thoughts that might help to understand people's rationales and reactions.

I used to think I'm a weirdo, but the more I talk to people and the more I read here, I slowly realise that "weirdo" is overkill.... It's our thing and it doesn't hurt anyone. Maybe everyone else is a weirdo..... Things change as time goes by. Society changes. If you look at how far we've come in the past 50 years, a 100 years from now noone will call CDs weirdos.

The more I meet people such as myself and read the girls post on this message board, I actually feel more 'normal'. I think there are 'weird' people in every group, race, gender, etc.... I just think there is a majority of people that just don't get why we do this...maybe we don't either, but the great majority of us are good people and aren't hurting anyone.

A hundred years ago a woman in pants would have been a weirdo. Today she isn't.

I think it's mostly a cultural thing, although there are certainly people in every group who are just weird as in incomprehensible.

Since I've started perusing sites like this one, I've noticed a recurring story thread of varying degrees of CD's placing blame or almost ignoring spouses who are trying to understand, but may not be quite at the level their CD partner wants. I sympathize with SOs who have all this CD'ing stuff suddenly dumped in their laps, and are then expected to accept any sort of behavior from their partners under that umbrella. I know the frustration and fears of CD's, but it still surprises me when the needs of SO's who are trying to understand are buried.

It's almost as if their is a strain of narcissism in CD's / TG's... Of course, not everybody, but I guess when one falls in love with their own femme image / persona etc. one will try to hold onto it, defend it any way possible, and it becomes the only important thing in life. So, to me, yes, people who are self-centered will act that way... But it makes sense to me that CD'ing can lead to a certain type of narcissistic behavior.

I think what you're poking at Leslie is that while crossdressers are weird... the fact is MOST people are weird.

In our case though, we directly face having to confront our weirdness and talk about it or be closeted forever. Because of coming out about our weirdness... we tend to open up about all of our weird quirky parts. Often I'll see glints of other non-crossdressing "fetishes/activities" which don't necessarily belong here, but are coming out in a healthy manner because the community here is fairly open to hearing who people are (as long as it doesn't bend our DO NOT POST list too far).

All in all, people are VERY open here for better and worse. Most of us are letting others see the deepest darkest secret we've kept while growing up... and that leads to revealing lots about ourselves. And the more you know about a person, the more of their quirks you become aware of.

I find being honest with my SO, was the best thing I could do. I am a warm and caring individual, very giving of myself to help others. I am also very secure in my sexuality, and have a sense of humor. She excepts me for me, no matter what clothes I wear. I'm still the same person. I have found the crossdressing to be a positive thing, I look forward to each evening. It gives me incentive to get things done, so I can be Maxi.

How we present crossdressing to our SO, could have a big differance on if we are accepted or not. It has always been a fun thing for us. Something that adds excitement. With my personality, I have made comments to coworker in referance to my crossdressing, and they take it as BS. They don't take me seriously.

HMMMM, crossdressing very well COULD, be a self centerd activity/hobby. Some of the reasons that, (at this time), I have ended up living alone with my cats, could be due to the fact that I think of myself first, and my female lover second...hmmm,:drink: Or maybe I am just thinking about myself right now.:daydreaming:

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Originally Posted by LeslieSD

Is the crossdresser community wierd?

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I haven't had as much time to spend here lately, so I missed Lauren's leaving... though I do recall seeing a lot less of her in recent weeks. If memory serves, she's taken breaks from crossdressing before.

I'd like to address the title of this thread, even if it is a bit off-topic for the content of the thread opening post. Please indulge me a little.

Do I think the crossdressing community is weird?

ABSOLUTELY YES!

Without a doubt, YES!

100% WEIRD!

Ok, I'll pause for a moment to allow everyone the chance to misunderstand my answer...

Ready?

I have never, in my life, encountered an online community quite like this one before. I've browsed and been a member of various self-help forums, but this is by far the strangest mix of people and emotions I've ever seen in my life.

Where else can you find a group of people who rejoice in their differences intermixed with people who feel guilty for being themselves?

Where else can you find people who constantly question EVERYTHING they do and wonder if it's because they're a crossdresser?

Where else can you read almost constant reports of people trying to "quit" being WHO THEY ARE?

Where else can you find people arguing against the VERY THING that they in fact are - demonizing crossdressing, AS crossdresser themselves? What a load of crap - people being "self-centered BECAUSE they're a crossdresser"? Ever met a self-centered NON-crossdresser? GRRRR! Wtf?? :Angry3:

Where else do people constantly talk about how guilty they feel FOR BEING THEMSELVES?

Where else can you find more people who fear what their family will think if they find out?

I could go on and on and on, but I think this part of the point is sufficiently made.

On to part 2...

Yes, this is a very "weird" community, as in strange, different, not like anything else I've ever seen. Having said that and pointed out several reasons WHY it is so weird, can you blame anyone for any of the troubles they share daily here?

How are people SUPPOSED to react to living in a society hell bent on enforcing 1950's style "gender rules"?

How can one grow up "normal" when every element surrounding them tells them that they're a freak, sinner, a walking sickness, a pervert, and a crap-load of other negative bullsh*t?

You BET this is weird! It pisses me the hell off, too. Not because it's "weird" here, but the REASON for everyone's troubles. It's almost ALWAYS the same damn thing - the social taboo of crossdressing.

Remove the social taboo and there would be little, and probably NO cause at all for all of the confusion, self-loating, guilt and plethora of other problematic feelings expressed here daily.

It just seems so damn senseless to me... so many people suffering simply because they are who they are - NOTHING is wrong with them, and yet they are not accepted by most of society, and often their own families.

Whatever.

I'm not "normal" either. I'm "weird", too. Hell, I'm weirder. Society is relentless in it's continued naive negative perception and treatment of people like us... and I'm obsessed with changing society to end the needless suffering of my sisters. I must be pretty messed up to try and take on all of society, but maybe sometimes being a little crazy is a good thing? I don't expect to win... but I will make a positive difference, if only a small one. Won't you?

Yes, this is a weird community... almost as weird as the f*cked up society that caused it to exist as such in the first place.

Very well put.