Men being men part 2 .... the dark side (& comment on androgyny in the mainstream)

About 2 1/2 years ago, I started a little thread called "Men being, well...men" ...

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...men&highlight=

...in which I contrasted a whimsical part of the male experience (those happy guys in the home improvement section) against my own experiences in that world coupled with the gender issues I cope with daily.

Since then, I've had a lot of thought about my place in this world, that I "get" the gender binary thing even though I was drafted onto the wrong team. My state of being has to do with crossing over rather than creating a place in society where boys can look like girls and vice-versa as the new normal.

Yet I have been fascinated with those who incorporate a level of androgyny into their presentation and although I have been thinking of this concept for a while, it happens that Pythos managed to sum up such a perspective so very well, better than I ever could...

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Originally Posted by Pythos

"The ever present want of clothing styles and choices to be equal among the genders, no matter the sex of that person." I personally do not want to be a woman. I have no desire for a sex change. I am who I am, and want the freedom that is held from me and others due to hate, ignorance, bigotry and sexism.

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Yet despite the fact I feel as if I understand this POV, I have a really hard time seeing it cross over into the mainstream. Even in major metropolitan areas, I cannot picture skirts hanging along side typical male clothing in men's departments in places as varied as department stores (ie-Macy's, etc), specialty shops (ie-PacSun, etc) or mass market (Target, WalMart, etc). Perhaps in trendy and specialty stores but not so much in the mainstream.

Take this concept into small town America and I think the androgyny concept would be even more foreign.

Which gives me a chance to segue into some experiences I had over this last weekend. It was a time of balance, a camping trip where all things feminine were rightfully eschewed in favor of a trip with my family. In doing so though, I observed some typical males in small town America. Those who caught my observation were youngish, in their late-teens into their 20's, behaving with their chest-thumping / testosterone-fueled bravado that is common in that age range. Both stereotypically common and absolute-reality-common.

I couldn't help but interject gender issues on those I observed and although any of them could be candidates for having the TG thing going on, chances are overwhelming that none did. They appeared happy as clams being the guys that they are. Males who give zero thought to their gender when they wake up in the morning. Guys who do not lament the lack of "fashion choices" when compared to women, who have no problem in their biggest fashion decision of the day is whether their t-shirt clashes with the boxer shorts which are prominently riding above their cargo pants (if they even care about that sort of thing). Guys who I could be pretty certain would reject the notion of wearing a skirt no matter where it was sold and how "male" it was marketed.

Then fast-forward to a situation which arose in our campground, one where I found myself in between two classically stereotypical males who were about to come to blows (one of whom was a relative of mine and was not the aggressor in this situation). Normally, being involved in a confrontation such as this would have sent my heart rate through the roof but somehow, I channeled my true nature and ended up as the peacekeeper with only a slight sense of heightened stress. Yet when all was said and done, all I could think about "aggressive man" was that beside the fact his behavior was absolutely stereotypically pig-male, he too would not be likely to shop the local WalMart for a new skirt.

So to bring all of this full circle, the TG world is real to all of us with methods of expression all over the map. We strive for mere acceptance, to live our lives as Pythos describes, free from hate, ignorance, bigotry and sexism. But does any semblance of androgyny gaining traction in the mainstream fit in with these goals or is this a separate and distinct goal? And for those who present in public with more of a "guy-in-a-dress" look (rather than an androgynous and/or utilitarian presentation), do any of these bigger social agenda type of goals apply to your situation?

The behavior you present here is the sort of behavior I think is fostered by the ridiculous notion "boys will be boys". This idiocy starts when the male baby is allowed to be a little s__t, wheras the female child is coddled. (your experience may vary). Boys are "allowed" to roughhouse where girls are discouraged from such actions. Later on these notions transform into the "bravado, chest thumping, stupid (in my book) behavior that personally I think drags men into the mesozoic ooz. Yes I have been with girls that have roughhoused with the best, but boys in many ways are permitted to be so much worse due to the "boys will be boys" notion.

These guys you describe have most likely from day one given rules about how boys and men are to behave, they have had NO choice in what to choose. They most likely completely subscribe to the idea that men should not pay attention to appearance, and should just be satisfied with what they have when it comes to style. They most likely subscribe to the idea that women should take longer getting ready for a date and a guy should just be able to throw on a pair of jeans and shirt, and head out the door. Is this a wrong way of going about life? In my book, this behavior is no more wrong than what I strive to do. However, if one of these guys were to think it was his place to beat me up, deny me a job, deny me services, and in essence make my life hell because I look beyond the stupid notion "boys will be boys" and strive for true equality, then he is now in the "crummy example of a male" category, at least with me, and I would hope with other people.

I hope I was able to address the issues in this post. :P

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Originally Posted by Sara Jessica

They appeared happy as clams being the guys that they are. Males who give zero thought to their gender when they wake up in the morning. Guys who do not lament the lack of "fashion choices" when compared to women, who have no problem in their biggest fashion decision of the day is whether their t-shirt clashes with the boxer shorts which are prominently riding above their cargo pants (if they even care about that sort of thing).

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I don't think I ever worried much about whether my t-shirt clashed with anything else visible, and I didn't spend my time lamenting over the "lack of fashion choices". I basically didn't care much about my appearance before I became a cross-dresser. As long as it wasn't suit-and-tie; and if it wasn't mainstream, that was good. For example, I had no problem wearing T-shirts, but what I shopped for was hand-painted or obscure T-shirts, not even anything mass-market like Metallica. My wife used to scold me a bit for picking out nice clothes for her but wearing "whatever" for myself.

Suppression? Yup, could be. But you never know which of those young men were suppressing as well, and would have hated to have been directly given some female clothing but would have been thrilled to have "found" some clothing that fit them.

Now if wearing that kind of clothing had been accepted in society... I wouldn't have had to bottle things up inside.

In direct contradiction to Pythos, I have to say that we do live in a gender binary world and I don't see it disappearing, no matter how much we, as members of this community, (which I also consider myself a part of through my association with my SO), would wish it were otherwise.

If the gender divide were caused by an overly strict and stereotypical gender socialization mechanism and if it did not sit well with most of these male-socialized men, believe me there would be a much greater segment of the male population wishing to break free from it in adulthood. The internet expands everyone's choices and memberships in forums such as this one would increase 1,000 fold. And then there would be no need for them since we would all be androgynous.

Nothing will ever take away the fact that most boys want to be boys and most girls want to be girls (even if said girls wear blue jeans). It is not a stupid notion. It is simply a fact of life.


The best we can hope for is a broader recognition and acceptance of gender and sexual diversity, which can only be achieved through more research, media exposure, changing laws, and widespread education. But if or when this should ever happen, I seriously doubt it will make the testosterone laden men want to wear skirts as a fashion statement, although perhaps a few men who are more on the culturally creative edge might want to wear them to keep cool in the summer. :)

And if perchance skirts were to find their way into the mainstream, there would be just as great a difference between male and female styles as to make guys want to not wear the girly skirts that M2F TGs would continue to want to wear. The gender fashion divide would be the same as it is now, even though fashion will have continued it's evolution process as it always has.

So much of boys being boys, and then it moves into adulthood has to do with the "pecking order" of things. Who is going to get to be the "alpha dog", and so on to the bottom of the pile. We even see it in girls that fight to hang off of the arm of the football star. Will it ever change, I doubt it. Testosterone seems to be the source, whether it is a problem or not depends on which side of the fence you are on. As men get older, testosterone levels decline, and so does the aggresive behavior. Short of giving all men "T" blockers, I see no changes, so the races will still continue. The arm wrestling, fights, bravado, and so on will continue. Thus is life.

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Originally Posted by Sara Jessica

So to bring all of this full circle, the TG world is real to all of us with methods of expression all over the map. We strive for mere acceptance, to live our lives as Pythos describes, free from hate, ignorance, bigotry and sexism. But does any semblance of androgyny gaining traction in the mainstream fit in with these goals or is this a separate and distinct goal? And for those who present in public with more of a "guy-in-a-dress" look (rather than an androgynous and/or utilitarian presentation), do any of these bigger social agenda type of goals apply to your situation?

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The desire for acceptance and the ability to live a life free from hate, ignorance, bigotry and sexism all apply to my situation. Sexism is wrong whether it's a woman or man experiencing it no matter what path he or she took to get there. The heat from the flames of hate, ignorance and bigotry doesn't know who it was stoked for and will happily burn whoever it comes in contact with. Not being as easily locked down into one of the accepted categories as has been suggested before might be the equivalent of painting a target on myself for some.

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Originally Posted by Sara Jessica

Men being men part 2 .... the dark side

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[SIZE="2"]I admire your bravery, Sara – you’ve started this thread on one of those special days set aside for the glorification of masculinity. I came out of my closet of solitude to reply! I recently wrote a thread about male behavior, specifically the “dark� yet whimsical side of manliness, but I didn’t dare to submit it for reasons that will soon become clear. Anyway, well done…
:clap:[/SIZE]

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Even in major metropolitan areas, I cannot picture skirts hanging along side typical male clothing in men's departments in places as varied as department stores (ie-Macy's, etc), specialty shops (ie-PacSun, etc) or mass market (Target, WalMart, etc). Perhaps in trendy and specialty stores but not so much in the mainstream. Take this concept into small town America and I think the androgyny concept would be even more foreign.

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[SIZE="2"]I keep trying to describe my surroundings in terms of latent intolerance for "concepts," but it (androgyny) is exactly as you describe, namely FOREIGN, and anything foreign is subject to castigation. Of course, I live on an island (for lack of a better word) in the middle of the country, far away from any cultural ideas or influence. If you live near an ocean, you may gaze at the horizon and wonder what is on the other side, while here in the Heartland such thoughts are, in themselves, suspect. Small town America keeps itself small by choice, and a display of androgyny is neither welcome nor tolerated. Looking around in my very small town, I don’t see anything that can possibly indicate gender experimentation, or expression of a feeling about gender, unless the girly girls and invariably manly males somehow qualify by harboring desires they dare not mention, let alone express visually. It all seems very conformist to me, but I’ve lived near the ocean and stared at the horizon, so I have at least learned to entertain any possibilities that may exist in life…[/SIZE]

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…the TG world is real to all of us with methods of expression all over the map. We strive for mere acceptance, to live our lives as Pythos describes, free from hate, ignorance, bigotry and sexism.

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[SIZE="2"]And this idea seems dangerous to the men who insist on being men. Imagine having to actually embrace ignorance in accordance with an imaginary characteristic your gender is supposed to celebrate (at this point in time)! I’m glad I’m on the other side, away from all this manliness, safe in the knowledge that there are other ways to BE. An individual must always be on guard against falling back upon pre-determined behavior that the majority agrees is correct – true bravery is reaching for, or attaining, this blessed acceptance of a state that is diametrically at odds with the male mindset…
:straightface: [/SIZE]

I agree and also disagree. For most boys they will be boys, and I dont necessary think its a product of nurture. Boys like to get dirty, they like to see things explode and crash. Studies have shown that give two young boys cars and they will crash them. This is generally not the behavior of girls. Note I said generally. Sometimes people like to push the sexes to be so similar and be politically correct. But I really believe this is not the case. Little boys and little girls are different in ways just not physically. It is in mental social and emotional develpment. I for one celebrate that. I hope the day will never come that the sexes are seen as the same.
With this said I believe gender discrimination and as well as how we expresss ourselves with clothes and other adornments will continue to be an issue.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

In direct contradiction to Pythos, I have to say that we do live in a gender binary world and I don't see it disappearing, no matter how much we, as members of this community, (which I also consider myself a part of through my association with my SO), would wish it were otherwise.

If the gender divide were caused by an overly strict and stereotypical gender socialization mechanism and if it did not sit well with most of these male-socialized men, believe me there would be a much greater segment of the male population wishing to break free from it in adulthood. The internet expands everyone's choices and memberships in forums such as this one would increase 1,000 fold. And then there would be no need for them since we would all be androgynous.

Nothing will ever take away the fact that most boys want to be boys and most girls want to be girls (even if said girls wear blue jeans). It is not a stupid notion. It is simply a fact of life.


The best we can hope for is a broader recognition and acceptance of gender and sexual diversity, which can only be achieved through more research, media exposure, changing laws, and widespread education. But if or when this should ever happen, I seriously doubt it will make the testosterone laden men want to wear skirts as a fashion statement, although perhaps a few men who are more on the culturally creative edge might want to wear them to keep cool in the summer. :)

And if perchance skirts were to find their way into the mainstream, there would be just as great a difference between male and female styles as to make guys want to not wear the girly skirts that M2F TGs would continue to want to wear. The gender fashion divide would be the same as it is now, even though fashion will have continued it's evolution process as it always has.

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I must disagree with some of your post, Reine. Altho it's factually based regarding our cuture as actually exists, I believe much of what we wear has something to do with our physical condition.

Let's say that suddenly most Type A macho men were suddenly growing up to be 5'10", 145 LB individuals. One thing that MANY macho men fear is being humiliated! I believe that's a major reason your big, muscular, linebacker types wouldn't try on ladies garb, even privately. They know they'd look rediculous!

Now, if they were thin and not overly muscular, why WOULDN'T they try ladies things on in private out of curiosity? Just to see if they looked HOT? I believe MANY would! Especially if they're hetero! That's what I did!

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Originally Posted by docrobbysherry

Now, if they were thin and not overly muscular, why WOULDN'T they try ladies things on in private out of curiosity? Just to see if they looked HOT? I believe MANY would! Especially if they're hetero! That's what I did!

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Are you suggesting the low CD to cisgender ratio (1:1,500, 1:1,000, or even 1:500 in the more hopeful estimates) is because many men are larger, and if they weren't then there would be more CDers? Doc, I'm sorry but I think this is wishful thinking. I haven't come across any data correlating the CDing to physical size.

men go to fight to make the nest secure any one would ...every one does

The way I see it, it takes a real man to know he is right, but to use restraint. It is like the kid with the fast car that pulls up beside the family in their grocery getter and does a burn out when the light turns green...showing off, but everyone else doesn't care (except they think the kid is stupid)...when you grow up and can finally afford to drive a Farrari, when the kid beside you wants to race, you just look over and smile, you let him race off/win because you know he has no chance to win...you win because your mature attitude wins the respect of everyone you know.

Yea, but when a riceburner pulls up along side your 68 mustang with the 302 your just dropped in, rumbling through dual flowmasters, you just gotta show up that nit what detroit steel and a lot of gas can do.. LOL.

Yes I had that happen on the way back from a concert with the Stang full of people, so she was weighted down...It did not matter. LOL. One frustrated Japanese hot rod left in the dust and exhaust fumes.

I wasn't mature...I know.

the real sillyness of all of that is the bad math that is being applied through connecting rods! 1% net fuel energy to the ground!

I don't see the issue.... Every morning I stop by the local convenience mart on the way to work for my caffeine fix and usually cross paths with one guy who wears daisies dukes, a cami, long hair and earrings... Another who wears capris.... And a woman who dresses like a welder (she really scares me).... And me dressed in a fine suit, pink tie, manicured nails, thin eye brows, smelling of perfume... Everyone wears what they want and no one cares... And I love getting dirty and tearing engines down.... So does my son and he's gay... He dresses more like a guy than I do... Who really cares what people wear... People who do obvioulsy need to get a life! Lol.

I had something i wanted to add to this quote:

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Yet I have been fascinated with those who incorporate a level of androgyny into their presentation

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Being a femme guy is possible from day one....Some of us guys are just born that way i guess. For me the hardest part about growing up was not looking like a girl.....i developed this need to be more male so that way i would fit in with the other guys who were built for sports and fighting. Still to this day i couldnt tell you who was even in the last superbowl, let alone so many of the things that these "standard issue" men know. Being 32 years old now and still sitting in the girls section even in drab, these terms like Metro-sexual and Androgyny are hard for me to swallow when used in direct context by others. Now after all these years of putting effort into how i looked as a guy i am suddenly put into the category of sending "Mixed Messages" by my peers and acquaintances because i am "inherently femme", its almost laughable. Years spent trying to fit into my male role being born a girly man has suddenly become "Edgy and Mainstream" (im still laughing), i mean i wasnt even trying.....

But dont get me wrong i am glad that some embrace their femme side, but i dont want to see all men as "Metro".....because then i will really be having an identity crisis!!!

So i am fascinated by other people finding male femininity fascinating....hahaha.

My thoughts,
-Donni-

There was a very interesting article in the paper last week about a couple who was refusing to announce to anyone the sex of the their newborn baby. Their plan is to let their young child start growing up making his or her own choices about what he or she likes without society pressures. As an example, if its a boy they don't want anyone telling him that pink can't be his favorite color, because thats only for girls. There was some negative reaction from some who feel thats not the correct way to raise a child. Very interesting article. Sorry I don't have a link to it.

It is on CNN, look for Dr Drew.

That topic is something i feel very strongly about, not giving "the child" a gender can be more confusing for the kid than saying "Well son if you like pink thats fine" And it will cause more issues than we have when we are educated about our gender,
Because by having "no Gender" it makes a bigger deal of gender to begin with. What we should be teaching is that "you CAN like what you like, no matter who you are"

-Donni-

Being in an organization that specializes in conformity (the Army), I would not want to live in a world where we are all alike, not androgynous but ambiguous instead. The conformity of the military, while necessary, crushes freedoms and ideas in the name of making everyone and everything the same.

I personally do not see any semblance of androgyny in the mainstream but I do see the ever present pressure of conformity, in which androgyny may be another one of the "camps" that a group wants you to conform too. I view the ideals of freedom from hate, ignorance, bigotry, and sexism as most honorable goals but they too can be tools of conformity used by a group - not for the greater good of the true freedoms but as tools to get others to conform to a group ideal. One group’s freedom from hate can be the antithesis of another group’s freedom of expression. Where do you draw the line? Who is the judge of what is right?

Do I wish for acceptance to be who I am? Absolutely. But I do not feel that coercing others into acceptance is the right answer. I believe the goals of freedom from hate, ignorance, bigotry and sexism (and racism, age discrimination, etc.) are higher ideals that we should all strive for but in our pursuit of those ideals, we should not forget that it is our diversity, our ability to think outside the established norms that make us stronger. Sometimes we simply have to agree to disagree.

I am reminded of a line in the song “Photograph� by Nickleback, “I never knew we ever went without�. It is a similar question I have asked of my peers and Soldiers, “Do the North Koreans know they are poor?� The answer is the same: You never know you are poor or doing without until someone tells you so. What happens when there is nobody there to tell you that you are doing without? The answer is you live your life the way you think it should be and are happy – you have nothing else to compare your life too so why would you not be happy? How many of us would live our lives the way we want if we did not know (or care) what others expected of us? There are a blessed few of us that live the way they want now not because they are accepted where they live but simply because they do not care what others think.

I think something we must realize even in the context of androgyny is that we are not trying to have it applied to every one. Just to those that wish to express it, either just in their style, or in their being. I certainly do not wish for everyone to be androgynous. I do wish more people would try it, and 4 fold more accept and embrace it. I wish the true gender spectrum could be visible out in the "real world'

I wish I could wear my styles and get compliments or critisism based solely on the clothing or style presented, no on the fact I am a male wearing a skirt, or otherwise "feminine" style.

Karren Hutton intrigued me though, where in the world does she live where men can dress in the manner she describes.

The Shoe department at a big Box retail store. It's down right depressing. They got maybe one side of one isle where they sell the three or four choices of men's shoes. All terribly bland. And the work boot wall where they sell only one work boot for women. Showing the flip side of this coin. Apparently women aren't expected to have dirty jobs, even if they want one.

I can't always buy something. Cuz all three of the big box stores at the lower price range have cut me off at size ten, Wall mart used to go up to size 12. And K-Mart 11 would sometimes fit, But they have a smaller size run now too.

Payless has cute styles in my size (only in the women's section) and they're kind enough to shelve them next to the men's shoes.

I would say that I'll welcome anything in men's fashion that goes beyond the pink neck tie thing. I wanna wear my skirts and dresses without shaving off my goatee. That is not too much to ask. But since I ask society at large for this little concession, It's asking a lot of people. I'm more than willing to beg on my knees on national television or pay a tax. But I think that this is too unfair.

My girlfriend can wear my jeans, boxers and tank top with her strappy heels and everyone lets it slide and even encourages, But if she lends me a skirt, I can't wear it out without the possibility of someone saying or doing something mean to get me to stop. It rarely happens, but it happens.

My new female buddy wants me to wear a dress for her. and take me shopping for one. As much as I love her for this, I gotta say that I wonder if I gotta shave and do hair and makeup, and wear gaga shades. Will enough strength and confidence come from her being on my arm? Will she "protect" me just by showing everyone I have a woman with me? Who knows?

Watch films about classical and pre-classical times. Yul Brinner wore a skirt in "The Ten Commandments" A super short one. Russel Crow wore a dress in "Gladiator" and sported the ultra masculine name "Maximus". Dustin Hoffman wasn't in drag the second time he wore heels in "Hook". In fact Heels were at first strictly for men, and worn with stockings. Ah the good old days. My pleated minis are nothing more than short kilts. SO what's the big deal?

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Originally Posted by Shoe Fettish Boy

Watch films about classical and pre-classical times. Yul Brinner wore a skirt in "The Ten Commandments" A super short one. Russel Crow wore a dress in "Gladiator" and sported the ultra masculine name "Maximus". Dustin Hoffman wasn't in drag the second time he wore heels in "Hook". In fact Heels were at first strictly for men, and worn with stockings. Ah the good old days. My pleated minis are nothing more than short kilts. SO what's the big deal?

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If you've been paying attention to recent threads, this has been discussed extensively, but it's worth repeating just so as to not take this thread off on a tangent:

The CDers who lived during the times of togas, fancy male dress Ã* la Louis XV, etc would have turned their noses at the clothes you describe. They would have instead donned the clothes worn by the ladies.

It's all relative to the fashion of the times.

Sigh, Fashions from the past.....

The 80's.....not too long ago....men wearing spandex animal print pants.........now they are feminine leggings

Oh remember the half shirt....now its a "high hem line top" for women

Oh and guys wearing tight jeans......now guys wear jeans that they could fit an extra person in. Or we are wearing "Skinny" jeans (lol)

Wait lets not forget about guys wearing cut off jean shorts so small you could see the pockets hanging down from the bottom hemline.... Now they are fem too.

Bottom line: all of these fashions had to come from somewhere, that means someone started the trend. Of course all these years later Fashion is different now, but people are still starting trends....And in order for someone to start a trend someone wearing that fashion has to look damn good in their own style.

And lastly, Why would we worry about women adopting our fashions from the past...if we looked good enough in them to inspire them to wear what we wear then how is that bad.....Because as crossdressers is that not what we are doing?

Back on topic:

Great point danni renee

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Do I wish for acceptance to be who I am? Absolutely. But I do not feel that coercing others into acceptance is the right answer. I believe the goals of freedom from hate, ignorance, bigotry and sexism (and racism, age discrimination, etc.) are higher ideals that we should all strive for but in our pursuit of those ideals, we should not forget that it is our diversity, our ability to think outside the established norms that make us stronger.

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What i like about this statement is that the acknowledgement that our diversity makes us stronger as a whole. I believe that this is the base foundation for acceptance, yet while embracing the reality that not everyone is going to like you for being you.

-Donni-

Sara

You say that you cannot imagine androgyny going mainstream. Are you not fogetting that androgyny is mainstream in females? OK that is a result of larger social movement in womens's roles and the need for women to copy and compete with men, but clearly it can happen and fairly quickly too. I agree there is nothing on the horizen in the male camp that would encourage men to develop their feminine side. I think the most important thing to consider is the dating mechanism. Men chase women and need to prove themselves worthy of attention. That requires men to be men. In business as well it is largely masculine qualities that are requested. If both the workplace and marriage requires men to be men then there is no open door available right now for men to become androgynous.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Are you suggesting the low CD to cisgender ratio (1:1,500, 1:1,000, or even 1:500 in the more hopeful estimates)

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Not sure where you get those numbers from but they are of a magnitude lower than anything else I have seen. I know there is no reliable data out there but one way to look at this is to examine the transsexual numbers which are much easier to estimate. The latest guide is 1:10,000. If crossdressers were at 1:1500 then that is only 7 cds for every ts????? It is obvious to me that there are hundreds of cds for every ts. Realistically the number is going to be around 1:100 which is 1% of men, perhaps as high as 2% but still not enough to make a difference in society even if most were not in the closet which they are not.

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Originally Posted by Sue101

Not sure where you get those numbers from but they are of a magnitude lower than anything else I have seen.

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I got them from here, middle of the page, keeping in mind these figures are extrapolated:

http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conw...revalence.html

I don't have access to research libraries so I don't know if there are realistic estimates based on actual studies. I understand that estimates are difficult simply because the subjects are closeted. And how can anyone say how many CDs there are to every TS, since the definition for CD is so nebulous? Are we talking about people who dress for kicks and see themselves as male? People who are bigender? People who are TSs in denial?

Maybe I shouldn't have used ratios. lol. My point in this particular thread was to illustrate there are far more cisgenders than trans that will determine fashion, no matter what the numbers are.