Feminism interfering with crossdressing?

I may be alone in this. But as I become more learned about feminism and women in general, crossdressing loses a lot of its appeal (except maybe on Halloween). Especially considering how cliched many CDs are in their imitation of women.

I can't claim any moral high ground there. In one of my pictures, I posed cuddling a high heel shoe with a lipstick kiss on it. Ironically, obsession with shoes is something that I can't stand in GG (and one of many reasons I hate Carrie Bradshaw). The GG friend who gave me the shoes was a shoe lover though, and the pic was for her.

I think I'm reaching a point where I don't see the purpose in crossdressing anymore because I just don't view the genders as very different. And the exaggerated femininity CDs put out isn't something I would admire in a GG (no more than I admire extreme masculinity).

Perhaps it's because I lack a transvestic fetish as a motivating factor?

Another thing happened when I visited a nightclub featuring drag performers: gay men acting out a rather absurd and offensive portrayal of women. Although I was at the show with GG friends who weren't bothered by it, something felt wrong to me. It seemed like a misogynistic display put on by men who don't desire women and may be jealous of them. Then when I got back to the Internet, the CDs I saw seemed an awful lot like drag queens. There is this major emphasis on stockings, heels, makeup and other such things that modern women in real life avoid wearing. I daresay I feel more connection to my female friends by NOT being a CD.

I could just be horribly off-base, and exhibiting prejudice and malice of my own. But at the moment, I really feel like I'm slipping away from being a CD to an ex-CD.

Thoughts?

There are many CDers who are intent on blending in and who are in no way interested in emulating exaggerated forms of female dressing or weird portrayals of women. You are certainly not alone in rejecting drag artists' portrayal of women, or feminists' efforts to deny that women have a real and important role to play as home makers.

The point of crossdressing in a true CDer is exactly this: we have no idea why we are compelled to crossdress. It is simply something we are driven to do.

My advice would be to simply accept the person you are, and stop agonising over those aspects of this community with which you feel at odds.

Well stated Clayfish. It could be that maybe you are not a CD, but someone who is just exploring this side of yourself. So, please do not knock those that do enjoy dressing in whatever form that they choose. Also, the urges to dress come and go for many of us. The more you learn and experiment your attitude can change. Give it time. Enjoy what you do. If you have no desire to dress, just stop. That is your choice.

I know what you mean, and I've noticed many crossdressers can be rather chauvinistic. If I had a nickel for every time someone liked to do "woman's work" while dressed... but feminism isn't necessarily about clothing or appearance, it's about equal opportunity and equal treatment. It's about being women but getting to do everything men can do, not actually being men.

I am not certain I completely agree here. I can only speak for myself of course but I do not think equating all crossdressers with drag performers is the right comparison. Yes there are some members of the forum here who are overly obssessed with clothing and shoes but I know more than a few GGs and GM that are that way as well - it is not a gender issue as much as other issues (if an issue at all).

There are some CDs who do put out an exaggerated feminine form but from my experience that is an exception, not the rule. Most CDs I have seen here simply want to fit in and be comfortable in their own skin. They are not out looking to turn heads or cause a stir - in fact most would prefer to simply be left alone to be as they are.

I will not say you are horribly off base. You have your experiences and they point to something you do not like. But I think there is more out there and more to most of our urges to dress than you are taking into account.

In the end I hope you are simply happy with yourself, whether you choose to dress or not. That is all I am hoping for me too.

While I have no problem with empowered women, I do have a problem with CD's who think they have to "de-power" tmemselves to portray woman, Nothing is really accomplished by this and therin lies the reason for a lot of the objections for doing it.:)

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Originally Posted by Lip5tick_Li5a

I think I'm reaching a point where I don't see the purpose in crossdressing anymore because I just don't view the genders as very different. And the exaggerated femininity CDs put out isn't something I would admire in a GG (no more than I admire extreme masculinity).

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If you are entering a phase where cross-dressing seems unimportant to you, then perhaps you should consider putting away the clothing until (if ever) you feel the need to dress again. I feel sorry for you if you do not understand that there are very real differences between genders, feminists do understand the difference.

There are very many different types of cross-dressers and both their presentation and their motivations differ. Your dismissal of cross-dressers is in itself a cliché.

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Originally Posted by Lip5tick_Li5a

Perhaps it's because I lack a transvestic fetish as a motivating factor?

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Perhaps this is the nub of your negativity, you equate all cross-dressers with those who do it for sexual gratification.

Hi Lisa

Looks like you just had a wake-up call and realized something that was staring you in the face but you could not see it. I had similar thoughts many years ago. My notion is that most crossdressers are not truly transgendered meaning half male/half female rather they are men who have found enjoyment in emulating very specific looks and roles of women for their own satisfaction whether that is emotional or sexual.

Once this becomes apparent then the behavior no longer looks as noble or empathic as it is often presented. As other have said there are different types of crossdressers with different motivations but the largest group b y far is the one you are discussing.

You don't have to crossdress if you want to see life from a female perspective. The problem we have as men is that we are socialized not to attempt that journey so few men do. However, crossdressers should be doing this since the point of crossdressing is to switch gender roles. But in truth many CDs are really just in it for self-centered highs and have no interest in becoming a woman or developing empathy with women's issues.

The important thing is you should decide for yourself what crossdressing means to you and work out how to put it to good use to become a better person. If crossdressing makes it easier for you to abandon bad male habits and develop good female habits then focus on these goals and ignore what others are doing. Define yourself, don't let others do it for you.

Most things follow the 80/20 rule, meaning you can usually say something like, "80% of our business comes from 20% of our customers."

In the CD world you could probably say, "20% of CDers have a clue, the rest are blithering idiots when it comes to self knowledge, self acceptance, and an ability to fit into life.

Panty sniffers, high voice gigglers, "girlie girls," etc. are the bane of all the rest of us in the CD/TG/TS/Gay/Lesbian/Straight world.

Some people aren't "normal" no matter where they show up... Unless you want to say, "They're normally clueless, self-destructive, and, unhelpful."

I think your observations and instincts are correct. You'll now identify with/like a much smaller part of the world you've been seeing - but you and the planet will be the better for it.

Not sure I'd call the 80% blithering idiots, but I mostly agree with Joannegreenleaf above.

Actually, now that I think of it, I don't care about percentages. Yes, there are some cross-dressers who fetishize, who are almost into drag ... but we've seen relatively few here.

Yes, there are some cross-dressers who tend to stereotype, sometimes in a negative fashion. Many of them do not seem to realize they're doing it -- does that mean we should condemn them, or perhaps try to educate them? I say, if they're not doing others harm, let them alone -- they're adults, and they need the opportunity to see the light for themselves, just as we've had the opportunity to see the light.

There are even some of us who'd just like to fit in -- not "pass", mind you, but fit into the world, feeling pretty. They shouldn't have to dress down to make it possible for us to tolerate them.

Yes, there are a lot of cross-dressers who are "immature" in this girly world, who dress rather outrageously for their age, who may put some of us to shame. I think that really, the shame is our own problem; if we want to be accepted as who we are, we need to make the effort to not feel ashamed of others or ourselves.

There are differences between males and females. I feel that mostly, the differences are on the outside, but that doesn't necessarily make them superficial.

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Originally Posted by Lip5tick_Li5a

I may be alone in this. But as I become more learned about feminism and women in general, crossdressing loses a lot of its appeal (except maybe on Halloween). Especially considering how cliched many CDs are in their imitation of women.

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I'm not sure why this should affect simple, victimless pleasure like your crossdressing. This seems like you attach other aspects to it that don't necessarily qualify.

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Originally Posted by Lip5tick_Li5a

I can't claim any moral high ground there. In one of my pictures, I posed cuddling a high heel shoe with a lipstick kiss on it. Ironically, obsession with shoes is something that I can't stand in GG (and one of many reasons I hate Carrie Bradshaw). The GG friend who gave me the shoes was a shoe lover though, and the pic was for her.

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That seems like a strange thing to hate in a woman. And I've never thought of taking a picture like that, but it's wrong how exactly?

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Originally Posted by Lip5tick_Li5a

I think I'm reaching a point where I don't see the purpose in crossdressing anymore because I just don't view the genders as very different. And the exaggerated
femininity CDs put out isn't something I would admire in a GG (no more than I admire extreme masculinity).

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I don't think whether the genders are different or not necessarily has anything to do with crossdressing. I put the clothes, the wig, the makeup because I like how everything looks and I, like everyone, want to be beautiful.

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Originally Posted by Lip5tick_Li5a

Perhaps it's because I lack a transvestic fetish as a motivating factor?

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Hm.. This begs the question if you lack a "transvestic fetish" as a motivating factor, and you believe that's what it takes, then how come you were a crossdresser in the first place?

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Originally Posted by Lip5tick_Li5a

Another thing happened when I visited a nightclub featuring drag performers: gay men acting out a rather absurd and offensive portrayal of women. Although I was at the show with GG friends who weren't bothered by it, something felt wrong to me. It seemed like a misogynistic display put on by men who don't desire women and may be jealous of them. Then when I got back to the Internet, the CDs I saw seemed an awful lot like drag queens. There is this major emphasis on stockings, heels, makeup and other such things that modern women in real life avoid wearing. I daresay I feel more connection to my female friends by NOT being a CD.

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An appreciation of heels, stockings and makeup does NOT make you a misogynist. Keep in mind, also that GG's grow up with the idea that wearing these things is o.k., and so can afford to take them for granted.

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Originally Posted by Lip5tick_Li5a

I could just be horribly off-base, and exhibiting prejudice and malice of my own. But at the moment, I really feel like I'm slipping away from being a CD to an ex-CD.

Thoughts?

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It sounds to me like you're going through the growing pains of what it means to be a cd. When a girl reaches 14 or so, she's just starting to get real breasts, just getting to wear all the things that the adult women wear. In other words she's just starting to come into her womanhood, and she's playing with it, experimenting, enjoying. It would seem that a lot of us spend a lot of time in this stage, and I think that for many the mindset is similar because the growth of our feminine sides was stunted by society.

you are wayyyyy overthinking it OP!

lots of buzzwords like misogynist, offensive portrayal, and fetishistic in your post...you sound like you took a your first day of class in feminist school....

put the clothes away, see what happens..

The whole idea to dress or pass or just fit in is a battle some struggle with contently. This is a crazy business we're in and everyone has their reason or unknown reason but we all have our own journey. So, at what point do you feel that is it just clothes and you're just a boy in a dress or is the need and desire to be femme more than just clothes? I'm somewhere in the middle of that. I feel sometimes that I'm just a boy in a dress, even with all the effort I put in to transformation then thats when, I'm not sure, the pink fog sets in or my femme sets in and the woman within is released or is it all just my transvestic fetish's. I believe the clothes do make the woman. Sometimes the woman can move an outfit, however, for me anyway, the dress moves me. Be well my friends, what ever blows your skirt up.

Obviously you crossdressing for some different reason than I do because I don't have the choice of it loosing its appeal.... And its not a fetish to me.... Plus what I wear doesn't reflect negatively on other women or women in general, imho... And I have never dressed for Halloween...

I think you are using way too wide a brush to paint with. I don’t consider Drag Queens as crossdressers per se, yes they dress in women’s clothes but they do it as a stage act and they wear exaggerated clothes and makeup to enhance their Stage Presence. I recently went to a meeting of a local support group held in a meeting room of a well known restaurant chain, and there was not one person there wearing inappropriate clothing. I doubt that most of the patrons in restaurant even noticed them as they walked through the restaurant.

No offense intended, just curious, do you take this same cognoscenti approach to other aspects of your life or just crossdressing?

I think there are still a lot of women who enjoy dressing and being very feminine. As for me, I do try to be "girly girl". I hope I don't overdo it.

I can see some of your point. I too get dismayed when I see someone that is emulating a characture of a female. HUGE breasts, ridiculous makeup, silly prancing walk, wearing clothing that makes one look like a baby (rare), super high pitched voices, and so on.

But this is not all crossdressers. This is just the groups that are seen by the public due to the rest of us HIDING!! (lol).

What the public sees for the most part are the insulting, stereotypical versions of what we do.

I for one really don't want to completely blend in. I don't want to join the morass of women that have chosen to wear jeans all the time. I want to wear the styles that I like because I like them, and I feel I look good in them, in either mode.

You should enjoy the act, and not need to feel like emulating some characature of women. Basically all I do is take me, and put the clothes on. I am pretty much the same person, no matter how I am dressed.

Other images I dislike are the Damsel in distress, the school girl all tied up, as well as the female that the only purpose of is to satisfy a man, along with many other portrayals of women completely non-empowering situations. I usually portray myself in a neutral to empowered manner. I frankly don't get people that get turned on by seeing a woman tied up to the point of immobility. (aside from the show of trust the woman is displaying to her lover in the case of S&M, which begs the question, why is such a "test" needed?)

However, something about feminism is that in actuality it is for equality (unless it is of the radical variety). Frankly I think it is a really bad title for a noble cause, which was essentially leveling of the playing field FOR ALL, not just for women. For men to take a few steps down and for women to take a few steps up. Unfortunately as we all know the male side did not really take any steps down, and anything associated with women on a male makes that male less than human. Why instead of calling it feminist they called it humanist, I don't know.

Hosiery, skirts, and bras are not meant to be "torture" devices as many radical feminists have stated they are. I personally LOVE hosiery, on myself and on GGs. It enhances legs, can add variety if patterned, and they do feel good to wear for some people. Skirts I think are eminently practical, I to this day have no idea why men do not have skirts as part of their wardrobe. As far as bras...EVERY woman I have known has clearly stated that if they did not wear them, their breasts would be to their knees. This was not males telling me this, this was from women I have known. You know how guys get a kick out of breasts bouncing...well the large ones apparently hurt like hell if they are not supported.

There are some "fun" outfits that I do like, one being the "sexy" french maid, but it is only the look I like. I have no want of a woman dressed like that serving me hand and foot (unless she wants to). I also like the Gothic Lolita look (and lolita is not used in the negative way), this is about the only look where I can stand the baby doll style dress.

Absolutely WONDERFUL post.

I am SOOOOO happy to read this...you literally have NO idea. I nearly left the site a few months ago because I got so aggravated by posts that seemed to put down GGs and were very anti-feministic.

What I think some people have missed about your point is that your not saying being a girlie-girl is wrong. You are saying that building up this caricature of a woman can be kind of offensive (depending on what angle you look at it). I don't think that all drag queens are gay...I know that they do it for show and entertainment and I try to keep that perspective. However, point made.

I literally can't think of anything to add but to say THANK YOU!

:clap:

I agree that in general on this site there are many CDs who are looking at the overtly feminine (by societies standards) look. The skirts, the long wigs, the make up. Yes it can get redundant and it can strike a nerve. But there are different reasons we dress as is stated everyday here. That is why there isn't one standard

I agree DRAG performances are over the top. It is one of the main reasons TGs in general get pigeon-holed by the general public. Look at what they have to compare us to: Tootsie, RuPaul (who I love teh look of by the way) and all her Drag Queens, any guy in a sit-com who dresses, Milton Beryl. With icons like that, yes we don't get taken seriously. (Violet you break the stereotype, you are funny and classy). But when the majority of us hide an embrace the culture ourselves without speaking up, then we will never progress. When you use feminism as your speaking point, you must realize that what you see now has been been going on for almost 60 years. Women didn't get where they are overnight and they surely didn't get there by being quiet.

This weekend I went out in public in women's (actually mine but they were bought in the women's department of the store) totally and no one blinked an eye. I blended in and I didn't create a ruckus. I don't think I even got a second glance by the thousands who were there at the summer festival. No it wasn't a "Pride" event. It was a "People's Fair". My outfit wasn't even noted. Why? Because I dressed like 90% of the GG's there. I wore a pullover top, shorts (and yes panties) and 1.5 inch heeled Huarache sandals. I had a baseball cap with my ponytail out the adjustable band and sun glasses. No notice at all. So you see, not all of us fit your thoughts of how a CD looks. Some of us just like how we look in certain clothing, nothing more, nothing less.

If you have outgrown the "need" then it must have been for a different reason than I have.

Oh my, you may be piling generalities onto more generalities, and dealing from The Deck of "Absolutes!" I don't think you can actually quantify All CD's, All TS Gals, All Drag Queens, All Humans as anything! There's just way too much variation among people to do that. I'll bet if you attend your next party with Transfolk, and you make some of these statements, your going to get a whole lot of, "I'm not like that, and you are full of B.S.!"

Pardon me if I'm wrong, but about The Only Time I have heard statements like this, it came from someone within The Community who seemed to have some type of chip on her shoulder. Perhaps that's not you, so I won't generalize by tarring you with That Brush.

Try this novel idea. The next time you attend A Drag Show, actually talk to The Gal doing the "female impersonation." Perhaps she's just trying to make a living, and perhaps she is well on The Way to Transition (Many of them have done that). The next time, actually start talking to Crossdressers that you encounter. I'll bet you that they don't think they are mocking feminism by trying to be feminine. (It's two different things) The next time, just consider The Individual! Actually talk to them for a long while, get to know them, where they are coming from, what they seek and desire. Then, if you want to make a judgment about THAT Individual, you have some sort of basis for your opinion.

I won't be so presumptuous as to speak for The Rest of The World....but, for an awful lot of us, when your formulating opinions based on generalities, please include us out!

Peace and Love, Joanie

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Originally Posted by sterling12

Oh my, you may be piling generalities onto more generalities, and dealing from The Deck of "Absolutes!" I don't think you can actually quantify All CD's, All TS Gals, All Drag Queens, All Humans as anything! There's just way too much variation among people to do that. I'll bet if you attend your next party with Transfolk, and you make some of these statements, your going to get a whole lot of, "I'm not like that, and you are full of B.S.!"

Pardon me if I'm wrong, but about The Only Time I have heard statements like this, it came from someone within The Community who seemed to have some type of chip on her shoulder. Perhaps that's not you, so I won't generalize by tarring you with That Brush.

Try this novel idea. The next time you attend A Drag Show, actually talk to The Gal doing the "female impersonation." Perhaps she's just trying to make a living, and perhaps she is well on The Way to Transition (Many of them have done that). The next time, actually start talking to Crossdressers that you encounter. I'll bet you that they don't think they are mocking feminism by trying to be feminine. (It's two different things) The next time, just consider The Individual! Actually talk to them for a long while, get to know them, where they are coming from, what they seek and desire. Then, if you want to make a judgment about THAT Individual, you have some sort of basis for your opinion.

I won't be so presumptuous as to speak for The Rest of The World....but, for an awful lot of us, when your formulating opinions based on generalities, please include us out!

Peace and Love, Joanie

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I did not take the OP as saying CDing in its entirety or being/acting feminine was being anti-feministic, but there are Specific things that are (pretty much) anti-feministic. I can think of a lot of things that strike me as such. The main thing to ME is the whole "sissy CD" thing. Women are supposed to be vulnerable, dominated, and weak. So, they play as such. And, not every CD is a "sissy." So, it's hard to generalize. That's why I would say not all CDs are anti-feminists. But, some are. But, a lot of non-CDs are anti-feminists too.

Nothing wrong with play and all, but it is what it is. My SO and I are very guilty of playing this game, but I don't think he is a feminist. I also get a kick out of being dominant. More importantly, he doesn't portray this attitude towards women on a day-to-day basis OR expect me to act as such. He knows it's just play and just for fun. If it was any different, I would have no respect for him...because, he wouldn't have much for me.

Also, I think that it's incorrect to say being feminine is anti-feministic. I am very much a "girlie-girl," but I am a die hard feminist to the core. I will get my nails done...get my hair did...and, then I'll go off to read the Feminine Mystique. Feminine=feminist. Not all feminists are butch. I can wear heels and look pretty, but surprise you once I open my mouth. This is why I love, love, Love women.

Drag queens don't bother me as much because I know they are doing things to be silly and for a good show. I also don't think most drag queens are very feminine. They are funny...great at acting...but...feminine....ehhhhh?.... It may just be the drag shows that I have been to, but the ones that I have been to were very caricatureish and Not truly feminine by any regard (other than attire, but that's not femininity at all).

I still love my drag shows though.

My point is that I don't think the OP was necessarily ALL of CDing is anti-feministic. But, some people and some aspects of it are and can be...just like most things in life. But, I have a very special place in my heart for CDs that are also feminists.

I am happy to see a thread like this. So often I find myself wondering am I the only one not getting the allure of the panty thread? I have always leaned toward the feminist/LGBT movements.
When I come here I filter through alot of threads in a baffled state. The women I know would want to string folks up by their pretty toes, if they read some of the things written here.

Go out in the world and watch women: something you'll discover, shocking as it is to some here, all women are not alike. Some women love dresses. Some hate them. Some women love shoes, to some women they're just something to protect your feet. Etc. etc.
There is no "purpose"- it looks good, & I like it. Same reason some GG's do these things. And those of us who go out show society we are just folks, nothing to fear or laugh at. Gay people learned this lesson & moved forward.
Let's also be clear: A chauvinistic CD isn't that way because of being a CD. A chauvinistic black man isn't that way because of being black. A chauvinistic American isn't chauvinistic because of their country- etc. etc.

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Originally Posted by Fab Karen

Let's also be clear: A chauvinistic CD isn't that way because of being a CD. A chauvinistic black man isn't that way because of being black. A chauvinistic American isn't chauvinistic because of their country- etc. etc.

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That's a good way to put things.

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Originally Posted by Lip5tick_Li5a

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I think I'm reaching a point where I don't see the purpose in crossdressing anymore because I just don't view the genders as very different. And the exaggerated femininity CDs put out isn't something I would admire in a GG (no more than I admire extreme masculinity).

Perhaps it's because I lack a transvestic fetish as a motivating factor?------------------------

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And, for every other CD that CAN'T look in the mirror at their fem self and feel some EXCITEMENT!!:D,

U may as well give up dressing now! I certainly would!:sad: