Confused...

I am confused about something. (this is for non-trans CDers like my husband)

Anyway, I read alot here about the "urge" to dress and feel feminine.

Here's my confusion: why do you use clothing to fulfil this urge? Is this not the magazine-model, Barbie doll version of feminine? Why not surround yourself with feminine energy, do something compassionate, help another person, nurture someone? What on earth do painted nails, long hair and flouncy skirts have to do with femininity? I mean, I hear of people 'aligning' their physical appearance to how they feel inside, but really, I find that hard to swallow. Women can feel equally feminine in plumbing pants as they do in flouncy skirts.

Femininity isn't an outfit!

So does the humble, ordinary CD REALLY feel feminine inside, or do you just say this so that people won't assume you're sex maniacs, when really you've just got a thing for girly clothing?

Kepp reading. Most of us are much more compassionate then your run-of-the-mill guy. I for one feel I have many feminine qualities other then the clothes.

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Originally Posted by Lady Catherine

Kepp reading. Most of us are much more compassionate then your run-of-the-mill guy. I for one feel I have many feminine qualities other then the clothes.

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I have picked up on that here, and it sounds like you're happy to express these qualities in everyday life. So why the clothing at all then? Or am I half right in thinking that there is also a desire for the clothes themselves, making this not JUST about feeling feminine?

Yep, still confused :)

I'm glad you brought this up...

Personally, the superficial manifestations of femininity are something that I struggle to wrap my mind around. Over the past few years, I was lucky enough to live in a really remote area. One thing that is strongly impressed upon someone living in that setting is the importance of material simplicity. One has only the things that one needs to get by from day to day - and it can be a remarkably freeing notion to realize all the bulls**t that one can live without. In fact, I recall returning to my stateside home after the end of my first year, looking in my closet, and thinking "Why the hell do I have thirty-six shirts hanging in my closet?"

Yet at the same time, I am unable to divorce myself from the idea that expression of my feminine side does not involve owning sexy pairs of high heels, or cute skirts, or about sixty different kinds of lipgloss. In some ways, this is incredibly frustrating for me, realizing that my maleness can be significantly pared down in a material sense, yet I am unable to reconcile that with what I strive for as Kali. So, I really have no answer for you about the superficial aspects of dressing.

But I have to ask, who are you to say that there is no manifestation of femininity in less superficial ways? In my case, there are a lot of ways... I am compassionate, I am a listener, braggadocio bores the hell out of me. I am going to school to be a nurse, largely because I want to help other people. And if you talked to my exes, I think many of them would say that I do have a lot of stereotypically feminine traits. One of my SO's said dating me was like dating a woman in a man's form. Another friend of mine, a lesbian, has said that she inexplicably finds me far more attractive than she has ever found any other man. So who's to say that there aren't many of us out there who do not manifest femininity in more substantial ways?

Guys are ostensibly visual creatures, right? So maybe this is why so many CD's dig that aspect of dressing. It gives us a very visceral way to reach out and touch that part of what is perceived as womanhood that really grinds our gears. Being nurturing or listening is just a very basic part of me - yet it will never ever thrill me the way seeing my foot beautifully arched in a sexy pump will. I wish I could explain it better, but that's all I've got. Hope it makes sense.

In the meantime, though - give us a little more credit than that, k?

For me personally, it completes me in a way that perhaps words can not express. I can tell you there is absolutely nothing sexual about it. The clothes don't turn me on, they just make me happy.

I don't know that there is a clear answer to your question, unfortunately. Or rather, I know that there is not. The way people feel about crossdressing is as different as the people themselves. Just look at the psych. diagnoses. Everything from low intensity transvestite to transexual with a number of grades in between.

For many it begins as a sexual "thing." I myself don't feel feminine so to speak, but then, what is that? My male self is more feminine than my mother is by your definition. (oy, compassionate?!?) However, when I am "done up" in my girlie clothes, the sense of matching my inner self-image with my outer, brings a sense of calm and happiness that I can't describe, you just have to experience it.

For me, I think it's because I like to emulate what I adore, admire, lust after and find visually stimulating not just in a sexual way. Women are God's gift to man.Next it's the feeling of the clothes, especially soft silky nylon, satin and silk. For a short time I can relax and look and feel feminine. Just doing some of the things you mention while dressed in drab male clothes does not bring out the feeling. And I do some of the things you mention. I honestly think that my being a C has helped make me a more loving, gentle man. I am more nurturing than many if not most males, but that does not make me feel feminine. The clothes don't make me more nurturing, but I think I am because the clothes helped me get in touch with my feminine side. Admittedly, sex is a part of it for many. Especially in our young formative years when we were going through puberty and noticing girls and women. That becomes secondary, but never leaves.

I love to ride horses, so I dress the part. I wear jeans, western shirt, boots and a cowboy hat. I'm not going to feel like a cowboy if I was wearing a business suit; or for that matter, if I was dressed femine. So when I want to get in touch with the cowboy in me, I dress the part.

I hope this helps you to understand a little more. And thanks for asking a really good question. Maybe I could have given a shorter answer and that is, I like the way the clothes feel and the way I look.

DoorMat, you asked some very valid questions.
For me, my dad owned a childrens' clothing store when I was a little kid. The little girls dresses in the store were very adorable, and I had a soft spot for them. There was something about the way little girls are treated and I wanted some of that.
However, dressing as a woman, I want to experience that too. I have been very fortunate to have done so out in public on quite a few occasions, and I find it quite natural and enjoyable....even in the most dress down fashion.
You girls/women are so damn cool that I want to be one too! ...that's just me.
Peace & love,
Nathalie

I also feel feminine in plumber's pants as long as there are panties underneath. Really, my take is since we are males we must have the fem clothing to feel feminine and it's pseudo-feminine at least for me. We can only imagine, and since men lack imagination we need some makeup etc. Also compassion isn't exclusively a female trait.

I need the clothes to complete the presentation that I want to make, that of an attractive sharply dressed woman. I am compassionate, kind and all that other stuff. What you mentioned is not only applicable to women, many men have those same characteristics. I don't necessarily feel "girly", actually that is not one of my favorite terms here that is way overused. I feel good dressed as a woman and have no problem feeling the same way when dressed as a guy. So, I need my women's clothes, all those shapers and squeezers to give me a more womanly figure, the accessories, belts, jewelry and purses to reach my goal. I feel that I do a very good job at that. Why I started this and why I continue this I have no idea. But, I enjoy my regular moments dressed and out on the real world doing almost the same things I would do in male mode. I have decided not to fight it nor question it. I embrace it.

Hmm...this is an interesting question!

My personal feeling is that my soul is part-female; the clothing just helps one side or the other to predominate. In drab, I'm a guy with Amy inside; her influence is still there, it's just not as visible. But when I remove that male clothing and slip into femme clothing, I become Amy with a guy inside. It changes my movement, my voice, and other aspects of my persona, and I often feel a warm glow from the expression of femininity. But both aspects of my self are valid, at least to me.

Of course, I also feel that if you ask this question to ten different CDs, you'll probably get ten different answers. :)

- Amy

It is all about clothing, disguise and a little theater.
Later in life there is a bit of a change when theater and clothing wear off a bit.
Personality, getting on with life and a female persona set in, that's when you know you are hooked.
This is when the humble CD does feel more feminine inside. :)

Hi,

Im a bit different, Im still trying to figger out where i am concerning femininity. i dont think i am . i am a woman who's different ya ya intersexed, yet i dont feel feminine or girly for that matter. clothes yes they are nice yet i wear overalls for work i do does not change who i am . & i still have not got my head around why men wont to dress in our clothes,

So lets go back to 1400 to 1700. men wore skirts dress's as in our group = Renaissance = The S C A. not a issue no prob's at all . lovely colours all dressed up. & looking pretty neat. yet they are men or manly men no fluff there, they are not trying to be like females or women, i know these guys pretty well theres over 100 men & 100 women . & we spend a week every year together thats comeing up soon.

The issue that comes to mind is i dont look feminine to start with, facial features soon tell that story. yet im just a woman. accepted as one, just this is my lack , i know i make up for that in other ways, i never liked the way i looked 55 years ago & nothing ...has... changed, since then or will, the reason i hated my pic being taken.

I prefer takeing the pic's,

so femininity i dont know how to apply that to myself, or even if i can, to me im very plain down to earth working woman.
Yes i get dressed up. & my women friends do the frilly lovely Edwardian clothes, 1900 to 1914, i just stay with quite plain yet nice clothes of the time, i would look wrong out of place & stupid if i tryed to dress as my women friends do.

I know what i look like so dress accordingly, well i hope i do. i do get nice comments so its not all wrong .

So i do struggle with this feminine = femininity.

...noeleena...

Why ask only if you actually have a problem with your husbands dressing. Maybe we just prefer something soft and pretty, doesn't mean we aren't compassionate at the same time

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Originally Posted by DoorMat

I have picked up on that here, and it sounds like you're happy to express these qualities in everyday life. So why the clothing at all then? Or am I half right in thinking that there is also a desire for the clothes themselves, making this not JUST about feeling feminine?

Yep, still confused :)

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Clothes are part of the experience. Early in the lifecycle, I think makeup and clothes are fun to play with as we find our sense of style and what works for us. More specifically, my wife and I are both extremely attracted to contrast. That's how we found each other. By extension, the more feminine looking garment against a piece of male anatomy creates significant contrast.

In other words, why ease into the world with a nudge here and there? Why not jump in?

It's hard to answer this question because you've directed it at non-ts CD'ers...I am someplace in-between those two so I might not be qualified to answer. If you look at my history, I have only related well to women, I am compassionate and I raised two children pretty much by myself until I met my current wife almost six years ago. Clothes aren't even close to the only or most important part of me. But, they are a fun extension!

Meghan

If you're a visual person, maybe comparing all of this to a gradient grayscale can help. In your OP, you separated CDers between just plain CDs, and trans CDs. First, you need to know that the word "trans" means to cross over. To some people (the TSs), it means to permanently cross over (full transition and live full time). To others, it means to dip their toe in and pull it out again (repeatedly), while for still others it means to jump in, swim a little ways, and then come back and climb out again. To people who are not trans at all (the men who do not crossdress) it means to not go near the river, in fact they do not even know it is there.

Anyway, in your eyes (and in many other members' eyes), the spectrum is as follows:

Garden-variety CD => CD with a degree of feminine identity => TS
(White => Gray => Black)

During the 1960s, a researcher (Dr. Harry Benjamin) came up with a six-step gradient describing the needs of birth males who crossdress, from males who just puts on women's clothing for kicks (usually this is purely sexual), to someone who needs to transition. So Benjamin's grayscale looked like this:

White => LightGray => LightMediumGray => DarkMediumGray => DarkGray => Black

But, in reality, the spectrum of differing needs is a full gradient, with a million shades in between the white and black. This means that unless a male is a pure fetishist (has absolutely no desire to dress for any other reason than sexual gratification), there is a degree (to varying intensities according to each individual) to express innate femininity, that non-trans men do not experience. Men who do not crossdress are not on this gradient.

The clothing helps to get in touch with inner femininity, but it is more than just the clothing, it is also transforming the total look with wigs, makeup, breast forms so that the image in the mirror can approximate how the CDer feels inside, even if he is not transsexual and has no wish to alter his body in any way or to live full time as a woman (which would be the black end of the scale).

Here's an older post I made, just so you can see the Jpgs of the gradients:

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...=1#post2853849

It is a valid question DM, it particularly seems to be a common source of confusion as GG's early on come to grips with the whole thing.

I know some GG's hate this way of looking at it and turning the question back on you but it can be useful. Do you like to wear something nice when you go out? Something pretty, a nice dress or skirt and top to go out to dinner or maybe to church. Do you always wear plumbing pants / trackie dacks to go out shopping or when you are going to meet friends or family? As a GG you can relatively easily express that side of your personality through clothes on a daily basis in a variety of social interactions. A CD cannot / will not for fear of social isolation and ridicule. Consequently the CD is "forced" to express this element of feminity in a safe environment, i.e. at home, when it may not seem particularly appropriate e.g. wearing heels to do housework. In addition, particularly early on after coming "out" to a spouse a majority of CD's go through one or more "pink fog" phases where it seems like they are trying to do everything feminine all at once. The child in a candy store that goes around tasting everything, even when it is not appropriate or they don't even like it, is also a good analogy. In this context the CD's behaviour seems over the top and rediculous.

However from my experience and reading many of the threads here and elsewhere, typically as the CD "matures" this behaviour tends to settle, they will typically settle into appropriate styles of dress for appropriate occasions, particularly as they gain experience in going out en femme. Even still though, don't you sometimes like to wear a skirt around the house, particularly a comfy old house skirt? Or a favourite top? Your not wearing it for anything "special" or even because you are trying to look deliberately "feminine", because as you rightly point out you can do that easily whatever you are wearing, but just because you like it and you want to.

Another way to look at it is when you wear plumbers pants / tracky dacks or even a nice pair of slacks and buttoned shirt are you trying to be "masculine"? I am guessing that you aren't, you are just wearing them because they are comfy and you like them. Try and turn it around in your head. For me wearing a skirt, particularly around the house, is not a special attempt to "feel" feminine, sometimes it's just cause it is "comfy".

I hope this helps. Yes I am CD, yes my wife knows and has done for around 2 years. Yes, she did ask almost exactly the same questions you are asking. Yes we are still happily married. Yes, I wore some rediculous things, particularly initially after telling my wife (most are now donated to charity shops except for 1 particular black dress that god knows where I would EVER wear it!) and yes, now I tend to be far less "girly" about the whole thing, one of my favourite outfits for just doing general stuff (shopping etc.) is a pair of jeans that I could and do equally wear in either male or female "mode". You are right, feminity is not an outfit, the outfit is just a part of the ways that we express it.

I am not sure what category I come under so not to sure if my input is laved or not , I will agree with you in that there are many other ways to feel or be in touch with your feminine side and as you say a female will be feminine what ever they are wearing but you have to take into account that is their whole part of them so that will shine thought all of the time whatever they are doing or dressed like .
There are some TGs that have the ability to feel feminine in this way and I believe that I am like that as it is always there as part of me but there are a lot of CDs that need a bridge to cross to get to that other side of themselves , they have to physically go from one side of themselves to the other and the only way they can do that is to cross or build this bridge and they do that by the way of dressing the part , they temporary leave one side to reach the other then when it is time they cross back over simply by changing clothes , I must admit I find it difficult to understand a bit as there must be some sort of driving force to make them want to do this and I think that there can be many different reasons why a CD dress's so it can be quite complicated unlike if you are TG where it is just part of you , it is almost like a CD has to escape from something by becoming something else for a short time which is like a sort of therapy if you think about it ( I am not saying that CDs need any type of therapy but just how it acts on you ) so to answer your question yes they do need this bridge in the way of dressing to feel that they have transformed into someone that is feminine and female and leave the other person behind for a while , in one sense I envy them as they have a clear cut plan of action unlike being TG you can just get stuck permanently somewhere half way across that bridge always in no man's or woman's land and then you may need therapy :D or end up like me insane :heehee:

A good question indeed...... For me then answer is a simple one:

I really enjoy having a feminine side and I like to express it. I do stereotype the female look with heels and skirts but as a big burly bloke, putting on plumbers pants makes me look like a plumber! To really BE the girly side of myself, I have to dress up/make up and then I can let it all out.

In my experience, I see GG's dress to fit the roll that they are engaged in, jogging suit to jog, golf clothes to golf, slacks or jeans and a tee shirt to shop, or sweats or work out clothes to exercise. They(the GG's) costume to fit the activities they are engaged in. Us cd's wear the garments that are appropiate to the inner urges that we define as feminine to our inner gurl and how it helps to make that feeling a little more real. We can only guess at what a GG's reality is, but as stated above, the clothes and all the other accessories the are associated with women will have a irrestable attraction to be tried and worn as we reach out to acquire a tiny touch of feminine mystique.

One aspect that I haven't seen anyone mention has to do with presentation to others. Obviously if a CDer is going out en femme and interacting with other people, it is safer and more desirable to let the general public assume the person is as female as any other woman. In that sense, then, their femininity does come in part from their "outfit" (to use the term from the OP). And the more distinctly female-specific the clothing, the better the chance for "passing," unlike with ambiguous clothing that offers few gender clues.

Unfortunately, I would not be able to pass as a woman without Hollywood-level costuming and makeup, so none of the above pertains to me. For me, then, a big part of wearing women's clothes (around the house) is that it is simply fun. There are so many wonderful articles of clothing or combinations when assembling outfits that I never get to wear in the context of my daily life as a guy, but which I can revel in as Colleen.

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Originally Posted by DoorMat

Is this not the magazine-model, Barbie doll version of feminine?

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So, yes, I would say it is the Barbie doll version of feminine, but there's nothing wrong with that. In a sense, it does kind of compare to young girls dressing and re-dressing their Barbies in numerous outfits. Or just as they might put on mommy's clothes and pretend to be a grown-up, putting on Colleen's clothes enhances and helps me with the chance to "experience" a different world - being a woman. (Besides which, the mere fact that the clothes I wear belong to ME gives them an extra appeal I was denied when I was a teen and snuck into my sister's closet to put on her clothes.)

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Originally Posted by DoorMat

What on earth do painted nails, long hair and flouncy skirts have to do with femininity?

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You get to take these things for granted, DM, because you have unlimited access to them. For that reason, they can lose any real sense of being special. But for me to whom they are denied, living in a world of assumed and enforced masculinity, they have EVERYTHING to do with gaining entry into that entirely different world of femininity!

For a parallel, think about a 14-year-old who sees their 16-year-old sibling get the keys to the family car - even if it's for something as mundane as going to the store to pick up milk. To that 14-y.o., those keys and that car represent a form of freedom and self-determination that they are still denied. They can only look on with envy as they see their sibling get to be a part of that world. (Meanwhile, for the 16-y.o., finally getting to drive is still huge in its newness. But after enough time, that special quality will wear off and it will simply be one more thing they take for granted, just as I say you do with nail polish, hairstyles and skirts.)

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Originally Posted by Joanne f

... there are a lot of CDs that need a bridge to cross to get to that other (feminine) side of themselves , they have to physically go from one side of themselves to the other and the only way they can do that is to cross or build this bridge and they do that by the way of dressing the part ...

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Thank you for this input, Joanne. I really like the way you said it.

It's a close approximation of how they think it feels. For some the only way to reflect that is to dress the part. After awhile if they really "get it", they will realize that it is all about compassion, caring and sharing as you say. That is the part of femininity and womanhood that is the most fulfilling. :)

Not sure whether I am the right one to answer, as I also don't really like my body the way it is (TS). I took on sewing as a hobby and became quite good at it (you don't see a difference between an item I bought and an item I sewed), and I don't require makeup, long hair or painted nails to feel feminine. Still, I use clothing to express that side of me, and try to integrate female items in my male wardrobe. No, that does not mean that I wear female panties underneath my regular men's clothing; it means that I e.g. wear a skirt or heeled boots when I go grocery shopping.

To answer your question: I think that part of what makes crossdressing interesting to the average guy is that it is still forbidden. Some start crossdressing out of curiosity. How does it feel to wear a skirt? Is it really that hard to walk in heels? Many people start crossdressing at a younger age, e.g. by wearing their sisters clothes.

When you are saying that you can feel feminine while wearing plumbing pants, you are feeling feminine because you know you are a woman. If a guy puts on plumbing pants, it makes him even more manly. Crossdressers want to experience the world in the role of a woman, and clothing, long hair, painted nails and makeup are the stereotypical ways to show this. For many, it's a turnon looking at themselves in full drag in the mirror. Someone external will see a guy in a dress, the crossdresser will see a woman - the brain will do the rest to eliminate the love handles or the beard shadow.

Are clothes really that relevant? Well... if you are honest with yourself, yes. If I want to look sharp as a guy, I can put on a smoking. A girl once told me that for her, a guy in a smoking is the ultimate turnon. Ok.
Smokings nowadays have come a long way. They can be black, black with velvet, black with silk, or .. ahem... black. Shoes that fit to a smoking are black dress shoes, maybe patent leather. But ultimately - black.
If I go shopping for a suit for the office, I've got a wide variety of colors to choose from. A colorful black, a joyful grey, a nice brown. Or variations of that: Black with grey stripes, brown with black stripes, etc.
You see where I am going. Men's clothing is totally boring. Women do have more options - from a color perspective, the fabric, the variety of items (dresses, skirts, heels, etc.) and the cut (most of the time more figure hugging).

If I would ask you to not wear heels, skirts, dresses, etc. for a year and just put you in men's clothing, I think you would really want to finally be able to wear something feminine at the end of the year again. You have got the choice, men don't. Most men don't care about this, crossdressers do.

Is this the barbie version? For some, yes. Girls that play with barbie dolls also want to dress up as a princess when they are young. Crossdressers that just start often want to dress up this way - but normally, this stops after a while as this wears off.

Regarding the question to "feel feminine": This is a difficult question. For many crossdressers, they just want to slip into a different role, which is supported by clothing, makeup, etc. - once they are in drag, they feel feminine. I've seen blokes totally changing their behaviour when slipping into their female persona.

When I still went out in drag, I experienced many things that I liked about being a girl. I got compliments about my look, guys flirted with me, I even got invited to drinks. I didn't have to be manly, show everyone how tough I am, that I am the born warrior. For me, this felt relaxing. It felt good - as a guy, you don't get compliments that often just for looking good.

I don't think that all crossdressers are sex maniacs who love girly clothing. Some are, many are not. Whether your husband falls into the one or the other category, you will have to find out.

The one thing that you should know: All crossdressers that I've met so far that were married cared very much about their wife, and were more compassionate about her needs than any other guys I've met that didn't crossdress. While you might not like that you husband crossdresses, you can be sure that he still loves you very much and doesn't want to hurt you by crossdressing.

I am TS, but I asked my therapist why clothing etc. was so important. She said the clothing, makeup, etc were a symbol of being female and symbols are a very important part of being human. Our session was over, so she couldn't go any deeper and I haven't brought it up again.

But, for me if my body was female, the clothing would be less important. As it stands now, having a male body I hate the dressing puts a band aid over the problem and temporarily fixes the wrong body.

I think the symbol aspect is an important factor for CDer as well. But there are so many different CDers that the importance of clothing etc., would in my opinion, will vary. On one side of the spectrum you have the fetish CD and on the other you have the TS. I know I love the feel of the clothing, the level of variance to express yourself - the sheer amount of different styles available, the lovely lingerie .....Man's clothing is far more functional and boring. I love the process of doing my nails, and my makeup. I love the ability to express yourself with the different colors for nails, clothes, and makeup. I love ladies jeans, slacks, long skirts, flouncy skirts, pencil skirts, pleated skirts, .......

This is an excellent post and is the reason I went to a therapist in the first place as I was trying to find out why it was so important. I know you weren't asking TS's, but I think there is some of the same aspects for a CDer as well.

For the non-sexual TG, I view it as how much of our brain is female. For a small percentage, dressing now and then allows them to get in touch with that feminine part, and for a TS its all about having the wrong body for a female brain. And I believe there are TG's for everything in between those two extremes.

I agree that femininity isn't an outfit, but for a man trying to express femininity it's the only way they can express that part. Don't know if I helped or not, but here it is anyway.

Maybe a different way to look at it is that if society would accept a male in female attire as they would accept you in plumbing attire it may all seem much more normal to you. To alot of people men dressing up is taboo, to us it is being able to express who we truly are.