Temporarily queer?!

“I never wanted to begin... Name that sin...” (from the song by Ultravox)

When you crossdress, M to F, do you become temporarily queer? :thinking:

Let’s say that you have no connection with the LGBT community in real life, except being open to all manner of human behavior without prejudice. You identify as a male, you’re straight, for lack of a better term, and you think of yourself as relatively normal (again, for lack of a better term)...

However, you like to crossdress, i.e. wear women’s clothing for pleasure. When you do so, you become queer for the length of time you are dressed. Nearly everyone you come in contact with will assume you’re gay (G), people on this site will assume you’re transgender (T), you may begin to think you’re bisexual (B), and you like the idea of being some sort of “male lesbian” (L). All this, just by wearing the “wrong” clothes! You become queer whether you want to or not...

Cool! Most of the time I have no connection with LGBT, but when I don my cute skirt I am trans-ported to the queer Universe. This happens time after time, over and over, and, much like a .jpeg image file, I lose a little resolution (in regards to orientation) every time I open my closet. I like it. It makes me feel truly alive, truly different, and, even though I’m not genuinely queer (in a traditional sense), at least I’m queer by association. Queer is a major side-effect of MtF crossdressing...

BTW, I think queer is a good word, and a strong word, even though it is not often associated with strength. Queer most often refers to homosexuality, especially in this country, but it also refers to anything (or anyone) that is NOT ordinary or normal. That’s a GOOD thing! Queer is another way of saying extraordinary, and it’s a pleasure to entertain queerness each time I dress. I try to be queer as often as I can. Unfortunately, I can’t stay that way very long – it’s not in the (genetic) cards, you see...

Are you like me, enjoying the state of being temporarily queer, or are you queer all the time? :battingeyelashes:

PS – If I dress up as Dorothy, from The Wizard of Oz, well, that would be a VERY queer thing to do, even temporarily, although I DO happen to live in Kansas...
:doh:

Picture if you will a Rod Serling type wearing a dress narrating what will happen when we cross over into the Queer Zone.Submitted for your approval we depart from the so called "norm" for just a bit of an excursion that some(Muggles mostly) would consider bizarre. BTW, sometimes I do sort of dress as Dorothy but that's just my showmanship speaking. The ruby slippers are optional.:)

Freddy: In your list you forgot "transsexual" or did you omit that group since when they cross dress they are no longer in the CD community? I think I answered my own question.
But I didn't really understand when you wrote that staying as a CD for long is not in the cards. Do you mean that 24/7 is not in the cards due to work etc.?
Julie

My wife and I watched a documentary the other night where men would dress as babies and drink from a bottle and have there SOs change there soiled nappies/diapers. We both watched in amazement and to be honest I thought that it was a bit queer. It takes all sorts but for me it was a bit bizarre.

I will readily admit donning feminine attire, a wig, and makeup is unusual for a man, straight or gay. If that's the definition of "queer;" doing something unusual, then I am guilty. Since I do not dress 24/7 365 days a year, then it is temporary queerness. Frankly, as a child of the 1960's I do not like the term 'queer' because it has been *******ized into something it is not. It's the same as the word: gay. Too many young people are ignorant of prior usage of a word, and, automatically think in very narrow terms. There are many times when I use a word that was used extensively in the 1950's and 1960's and are taken to task by some person, who in my opinion is totally ignorant.

A rather and relatively short thread-starter from Frederique. Now THAT'S queer!

For me, crossdressing does not have any impact on my sexual preference. So, the answer would be "no".

Going off Dictionary.com's definition (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/queer) being queer is simply being abnormal. It does have the slang connotation of being gay, but its definition is, at its most simple root, "strange."

By that regard, a black man moving into a white area of town in the 60s was definitely queer (by Archie Bunker's standards at least). It's not a good word to use these days in that regard though, as the word, as previously mentioned, attained the connotation of homosexuality, a better word to use is peculiar, but given modern, negative slang usage "queer" definitely does have a nice punch to it, like a kick to the gut. Out of curiosity, I did a search in the King James Version of the Bible (first published in 1611 for those unfamiliar) for the word, to see it had a "Biblical" usage, it does not occur in the King James Version, in contrast, the word peculiar (as would have been used in the same regard, a classical word for strange or abnormal behavior) occurs 7 times.

That being said, I definitely do think it is strange, peculiar, that a man would want to wear women's clothing (and vice versa) and cannot fully explain why I do it myself.

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Originally Posted by Frédérique

“I never wanted to begin... Name that sin...” (from the song by Ultravox)

When you crossdress, M to F, do you become temporarily queer?

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No. Being bisexual is not temporary.

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Originally Posted by Frédérique

Let’s say that you have no connection with the LGBT community in real life, except being open to all manner of human behavior without prejudice. You identify as a male, you’re straight, for lack of a better term, and you think of yourself as relatively normal (again, for lack of a better term)...

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Actually, I think it would be better if we were all connected to the LGBT community. Society at large always wants to do that because it keeps them from having to understand us. We all show up somewhere in the community definition, but most people are not interested in knowing what's different about us. So, since we are viewed as this sexual minority monolith, coming together is useful for us politically.

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Originally Posted by Frédérique

However, you like to crossdress, i.e. wear women’s clothing for pleasure. When you do so, you become queer for the length of time you are dressed. Nearly everyone you come in contact with will assume you’re gay (G), people on this site will assume you’re transgender (T), you may begin to think you’re bisexual (B), and you like the idea of being some sort of “male lesbian” (L). All this, just by wearing the “wrong” clothes! You become queer whether you want to or not...

Cool! Most of the time I have no connection with LGBT, but when I don my cute skirt I am trans-ported to the queer Universe. This happens time after time, over and over, and, much like a .jpeg image file, I lose a little resolution (in regards to orientation) every time I open my closet. I like it. It makes me feel truly alive, truly different, and, even though I’m not genuinely queer (in a traditional sense), at least I’m queer by association. Queer is a major side-effect of MtF crossdressing...

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I disagree with that. Your identity, in this case crossdresser, is not a function of whether or not you are dressed. We don't say, and I would believe can't say, that we will be crossdressers next Friday night from 7:30 until midnight. We can't turn it on and off. Remember that our thoughts and our behaviors are two different things. For example, in many threads here people have talked about really liking a GG's outfit and wishing they had it. However, they were in male clothes at work or at the mall with the family. This thought process doesn't came and go. It may lessen, but it doesn't go away entirely.

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Originally Posted by Frédérique

BTW, I think queer is a good word, and a strong word, even though it is not often associated with strength. Queer most often refers to homosexuality, especially in this country, but it also refers to anything (or anyone) that is NOT ordinary or normal. That’s a GOOD thing! Queer is another way of saying extraordinary, and it’s a pleasure to entertain queerness each time I dress. I try to be queer as often as I can. Unfortunately, I can’t stay that way very long – it’s not in the (genetic) cards, you see...

Are you like me, enjoying the state of being temporarily queer, or are you queer all the time?

PS – If I dress up as Dorothy, from The Wizard of Oz, well, that would be a VERY queer thing to do, even temporarily, although I DO happen to live in Kansas...

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I don't really have a problem with the word Queer, except when it is used negatively. However, we do have to realize that it is somewhat non-specific. The definitions for Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender are pretty clear. Queer doesn't have sharply delineated boundaries from my understanding. I'm not opposed to someone defining themselves as such, but it's the kind of thing that may require more explanation.

There is a distinct difference between a heterosexual crossdresser and a bisexual crossdresser and you see it here all the time on the forum.

Each has an energy that is very different from the other and the men who are bisexual do not have as many sharp corners as the men who are heterosexual but this has nothing to do with being passive,submissive or effeminate.

It was always there and if I had met them as children I would experience the same thing.

I "experience" those crossdressers that identify as heterosexual as "heterosexual men" and those who identify as bisexual as "bisexual men" but I feel this energy coming off them in their words and not because of how they identify.

Sometimes someone will say they are heterosexual and if I have a deep enough sense of them I may say in my mind "no you are not" because that energy I feel does not match that which is required to be only heterosexual.

I have also met transsexuals who have completed transition and I still experience their energy as uniquely male so now see them as very masculine woman (as energy) where I have met others and it is clear to me they were never male so when they transition I experience them as feminine but it has nothing to do with observable behavior but something they radiate.

It has nothing to do with how they look or act but something that radiates off of them like an energy.

The word queer in my mind speaks to sexuality but maybe it also speaks to this energy that I feel in others.

It mystifies me that the energy that radiates off of you could be content in male form because you are so sublimely female and I wonder how you avoid being at war with yourself.

Because of how I "experience you" I could never apply the label queer to you because I would have to experience you as male.

This is not to insult you or hurt you but just a simple sharing of how I "experience" you.

For me it is a good thing because I very much like your energy and find it easy to be around.

I cannot explain this energy and I think it is a mixture of two energies blended together in every person but usually one energy dominates but with certain people it is almost like there is only one energy in them that is expressed.

You have this energy in a very pure form. I have only know this energy in women and even than it is only in the most feminine of women.

As an actress I would say most probably Audrey Hepburn had it.

I hope you value and protect this thing inside you. It is very rare but comes at a very high price.

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Originally Posted by KellyJameson

I "experience" those crossdressers that identify as heterosexual as "heterosexual men" and those who identify as bisexual as "bisexual men" but I feel this energy coming off them in their words and not because of how they identify.

Sometimes someone will say they are heterosexual and if I have a deep enough sense of them I may say in my mind "no you are not" because that energy I feel does not match that which is required to be only heterosexual.

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What you're talking about is the reality of our identity versus what we believe it to be. Ofttimes the two are not in sync. I suppose that could be called denial.

Well, in terms of my mode of dress, I'm in and out. But I don't change the person I am because of my attire. So, I'm queer in the best possible sense of the term, and true to the LGBT even when I'm forced to be male.

Frédérique,

I would agree temporarily queer if the situation is right.
Not necessarily homosexual but a different feeling considering the moment.
When younger I had been absorbed in the moment with a group of friends.
I am dressed attractively in a skirt and top or dress. I am all made up and the perfume exudes girl.
I am dancing with a guy who knows what I am and we embrace on the dance floor to the glee of our friends on the sidelines.
I have enjoyed that type of moment a few times with the same group and even if it was for show we both enjoyed the snogging on the dance floor and they still thought I was straight...
I am straight, I think, but just queer sometimes.

Dressing up as Dorothy would not be considered queer in California or anywhere else.
Just old hat.

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Originally Posted by flatlander_48

Being bisexual is not temporary.

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I didn’t say it was. However, there was a time during the past two months when this idea of entertaining bisexual thoughts whilst crossdressed spawned several threads. You can look it up. Don’t forget that I exist outside of the LGBT community (I believe I declared that in the OP), while you reside within the community (I assume). Operating outside the so-called “umbrella,” I only come in contact with the world of bisexuality (or the queer world, if you prefer) when I crossdress. All I’m saying is that a conduit to the queer world, a yellow brick road of sorts, is created when I dress...

I may have bisexual thoughts now and then, but that does not make me bisexual per se... :straightface:

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Actually, I think it would be better if we were all connected to the LGBT community. Society at large always wants to do that because it keeps them from having to understand us. We all show up somewhere in the community definition, but most people are not interested in knowing what's different about us. So, since we are viewed as this sexual minority monolith, coming together is useful for us politically.

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I AM connected to it when I crossdress – that’s the point I’m trying to make. It’s the best I can do. At other times I am pointedly sympathetic to the LGBT community, short of being interested in their political concerns. From my perspective, that of a hedonistic outsider, sensuality and politics don’t mix, just like art and politics don’t mix, IMHO. Many would disagree with me, but I would hate to use my precious hard-won mode of expression as some kind of tool to affect change, making myself miserable in the process. There’s no need to be defensive about LGBT, but I know that’s how it is. As they say, misery loves company, so that’s why I keep my distance, coming and going like a beautiful butterfly. Can you dig it? Hello?

Please don’t take this topic too seriously – this is not supposed to be a “heavy” subject, but it’s difficult to mention LGBT without some representative taking issue with what I write. However, that doesn’t seem to stop me...

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Originally Posted by Kelly Jameson

It mystifies me that the energy that radiates off of you could be content in male form because you are so sublimely female and I wonder how you avoid being at war with yourself. Because of how I "experience you" I could never apply the label queer to you because I would have to experience you as male.

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I was never at war with myself – there was a series of heated negotiations at the crossroads, and I made certain concessions to avoid open conflict. As such, I prefer to be apart from the official “queer” world, only traveling to this curious oasis when I’m dressed properly. I wish I was “sublimely female,” of course, but the best I can do is try to create a reasonable facsimile! As far as experiencing is concerned, words fall woefully short of the real thing, but I am plenty queer to all who know me – the “male” has been modified into something more suitable over time...
:battingeyelashes:

Crossdressing and Crossdressers fall into what would be considered "Queer" behavior. Its an all-encompassing term describing activities or identities distinct from, say, Gay or Lesbian. Queer can refer to anything or anyone that falls outside of a "box" descriptor (Gay, Lesbian, Bi, Straight, Man, Woman, etc.) By definition if you consider yourself to be a Crossdresser, you are queer, no temporary about it.

http://faculty.washington.edu/mlg/co...ions/queer.htm

I denote queer as having sexual feelings for a member of the same sex rather than the opposite sex. I certainly do not have feelings of that kind when in girl mode. However it does cross my mind sometimes to have a man on my arm occasionally like an accessory bit like a handbag.

You could say my female side is queer ie lesbian because she prefers women to men.

Maria

Maybe crossdressing can be considered acting queerly rather than being "queer" which most people think means homosexual now. Jaymee

I'm completely connected to it when I dress as well, so I do not mind being viewed as 'queer'. What other people think of me has no impact on what I think of myself.

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Originally Posted by Frédérique

I didn’t say it was.

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I was referring to my viewpoint. For me, it isn't temporary while I'm dressed. I identified as a bisexual long before crossdressing so there is history for me. For most here, it seems that it was the other way around, so they do not have history.

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Originally Posted by Frédérique

Don’t forget that I exist outside of the LGBT community (I believe I declared that in the OP), while you reside within the community (I assume).

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No, not really. Externally I look like any other aged, midwestern mechanical engineer. It isn't obvious that I attempt to maintain some contact with the community. Actually, where I live there really isn't a community as the town is only 11,000 people. My connection is largely through our LGBT employee affinity group. I am out to the group, and a few others, as a bisexual. However, other than my wife, there are only 2 others who know that I crossdress.

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Originally Posted by Frédérique

Operating outside the so-called “umbrella,” I only come in contact with the world of bisexuality (or the queer world, if you prefer) when I crossdress. All I’m saying is that a conduit to the queer world, a yellow brick road of sorts, is created when I dress...

I may have bisexual thoughts now and then, but that does not make me bisexual per se...

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That is true. If you were actually bisexual, it would be more like a steady state.

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Originally Posted by Frédérique

I AM connected to it when I crossdress – that’s the point I’m trying to make. It’s the best I can do. At other times I am pointedly sympathetic to the LGBT community, short of being interested in their political concerns. From my perspective, that of a hedonistic outsider, sensuality and politics don’t mix, just like art and politics don’t mix, IMHO. Many would disagree with me, but I would hate to use my precious hard-won mode of expression as some kind of tool to affect change, making myself miserable in the process. There’s no need to be defensive about LGBT, but I know that’s how it is. As they say, misery loves company, so that’s why I keep my distance, coming and going like a beautiful butterfly. Can you dig it? Hello?

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Realize, though, that GENDA legislation could have some bearing on your situation. The way it works out, it's not unlike working in a Right To Work state. You get the benefits from being part of the company without having to join the union. That seems a bit unfair.

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Originally Posted by Frédérique

Please don’t take this topic too seriously – this is not supposed to be a “heavy” subject, but it’s difficult to mention LGBT without some representative taking issue with what I write. However, that doesn’t seem to stop me...

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Well, regardless of your intentions, these are serious topics for quite a few other people. Judging by the posts you see here, many are struggling with these issues. I can't fix it, but I do think it would be helpful for folks to align themselves with the LGBT community. We are all lumped together by society at large, so it would be good to make use of that.

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Originally Posted by Frédérique

I was never at war with myself – there was a series of heated negotiations at the crossroads, and I made certain concessions to avoid open conflict. As such, I prefer to be apart from the official “queer” world, only traveling to this curious oasis when I’m dressed properly. I wish I was “sublimely female,” of course, but the best I can do is try to create a reasonable facsimile! As far as experiencing is concerned, words fall woefully short of the real thing, but I am plenty queer to all who know me – the “male” has been modified into something more suitable over time...

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Well, since you don't align yourself with the LGBT community, do you align yourself with the Women's Movement?

I definatly identify/personify more as (temporarily) queer when Sarah is dressed. So you are right on with that. Depending on the situation though, I find myself starting to begin to identify more towards the queer side in daily male life, again, though just in certain situations, and with those few people who know about Sarah.

I will never understand why people make my lifestyle so screwed up, Gee wiss it,s just cloths that cover the body.

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Originally Posted by flatlander_48

Well, since you don't align yourself with the LGBT community, do you align yourself with the Women's Movement?

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Why must I align myself with anything? Can’t I just crossdress, for crying out loud? BTW, I just read what you submitted to another thread:

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The problem is NOT having opinions. Rather, the problem is believing that when others hear YOUR opinion, they will realize the error in their ways. Unless there is one of us that has no ego, I would say that we all don't see how anyone could hold an opinion contrary to our own. However, most of us can't bear to keep our opinions to ourselves.

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So, you’re insisting there is an error in my ways, and you, the self-professed person without an ego, are attacking my alleged ego because you can’t help yourself. Interesting. Now I know where you’re coming from. You know, I think I’m going to sign that non-alignment pact with myself, and enjoy a lifetime of peace and prosperity…

BTW, if you give Freddy some words, she's going to twist them. Hey, people do it to me all the time! Please don't take it the wrong way - a post is a post is a post, a stepping stone along the path of discussion, and it's a sincere pleasure to swap thoughts with you...
:battingeyelashes:

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Originally Posted by Sarah V

I definatly identify/personify more as (temporarily) queer when Sarah is dressed. So you are right on with that. Depending on the situation though, I find myself starting to begin to identify more towards the queer side in daily male life, again, though just in certain situations, and with those few people who know about Sarah.

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I was thinking today that it may be more likely that I am queer ALL the time (my sister seems to think so), and I “crossdress” as a visibly non-queer person to put everyone at ease. This is a form of over-dressing, as opposed to under-dressing, since I camouflage my queer “side” to protect it. What they don’t know won’t hurt them, and I get a kick out of “passing” unnoticed…

A bit out of the ordinary, odd, strange, all the time, but especially when all dolled up. Queer, i suppose!

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Originally Posted by Frédérique

Why must I align myself with anything? Can’t I just crossdress, for crying out loud? BTW, I just read what you submitted to another thread:

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It wasn't a Must. I was a just question. I was curious as to where things sat for you. The reality is that if you say CrossDresser, you could count the variations with all your fingers and toes and still probably be short. This isn't nearly as well defined as gay, lesbian or bisexual.

Yes, I do offer opinions. Many people here do. However, I do also try to explain why I think the way I do. And, in some ways, that thought process may be different from most others. I dare say that if I chronicled my life, I doubt if it would look like anyone else's.

That said, it does bother me that more here don't feel any particular attachment with the LGBT community in general. Sexual minorities are ALWAYS at risk when you live in a place that has no employment protections. Further, it can be just the Perception that you are gay, regardless of the reality. No one deserves that, but there are lots of ways to go wrong. People here worry about being stopped by the police while out dressed and it has happened for some. Police are human and inadvertently "stuff" can get out. Or, what if you out yourself to the wrong person? I won't even say that someone would do it on purpose, but "stuff" gets out. In short, a lot of bad things can happen that shouldn't. That's what I worry about.

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Originally Posted by Frédérique

So, you’re insisting there is an error in my ways, and you, the self-professed person without an ego, are attacking my alleged ego because you can’t help yourself. Interesting. Now I know where you’re coming from. You know, I think I’m going to sign that non-alignment pact with myself, and enjoy a lifetime of peace and prosperity…

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That's funny! No, there is no error if that's what works for you and you are comfortable with it. I would probably wish that things were different, but it is what it is. To me this is an extension of the various employee affinity groups that I have joined and led over the last 18 years of so. When you take that perspective, plus my personal history as a sexual minority, that's the basis of my thinking. However, our section of the community has many facets and that's what makes it very difficult to come together.

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Originally Posted by Frédérique

BTW, if you give Freddy some words, she's going to twist them. Hey, people do it to me all the time! Please don't take it the wrong way - a post is a post is a post, a stepping stone along the path of discussion, and it's a sincere pleasure to swap thoughts with you...
:battingeyelashes:

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Not, a problem. What's important for me is to try to make sure that what I say exactly what I believe. I don't throw out B/S to be throwing out B/S. Sometimes my tone is a bit sharper than needed, so I need to watch that. In any discussion what is important is that we converse in such a way as to allow people to keep listening. Regardless of what you're saying, if the other person stops listening, there is no conversation. So, that's always something that I have to watch out for. However, sadly I'm not above the occasional sarcastic reference. It's a work in progress; as we all are.

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Originally Posted by Frédérique

I was thinking today that it may be more likely that I am queer ALL the time (my sister seems to think so), and I “crossdress” as a visibly non-queer person to put everyone at ease. This is a form of over-dressing, as opposed to under-dressing, since I camouflage my queer “side” to protect it. What they don’t know won’t hurt them, and I get a kick out of “passing” unnoticed…

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Yes, as I said, as a group we have MANY different perspectives on what crossdressing is and what it does for each of us. From an academic view, the range of perspectives is amazing. Also, I think that Identity is not a static thing. Stuff can change for us in the course of our lives and it may make sense to adjust our thoughts about Identity.

I haven't been out fully dressed in a long time, but I do frequently fully underdress. When I was installing new shelves and drawers in my closet recently, I had to make a few trips to Home Depot. I would present with projection similar to what is shown in my photo to the left. However, I would be wearing a black turtleneck, dark green bib overalls and a black nylon jacket. When the jacket is zipped, it is VERY difficult to tell what is underneath. You have to have just the right lighting or I need to be standing next to a light colored background at the right angle. Anyway, the feeling is similar. It's a Nah, Nah, Ne, Nah, Na... and you're getting away with something. Yes, very similar. I get a kick out of it too!