"first" professional seminar

First time to be with my colleagues in a professional atmosphere (read seminar) tonight. It wasn't for credit so I expected a lower turn out. It was very interesting though. Yes I over dressed. I knew I would be. In my profession, jeans and a hoodie are common. I wore a nice dress, make up, heels...but hey, the other women have been doing it a lot longer than I and they aren't into that anymore :idontknow:

About 25 people, 4 guys in that mix. Most looked at me, then pretended I wasn't there. No one sat next to me until there were no other seats. One hetero(guessing since they were male and female and together) made sure they took extra steps to go around me....moved to be further away and her look made me think maybe my makeup was smeared or something. Worst reaction was from a lesbian. She could have killed me with her stare.

Two women closer to my age actually talked to me. Maybe it was because I over dressed :idontknow:

Yeah, this is going to be fun.

They rather take the collegial out of colleague, don't they?

Nothing wrong with looking nice but nonetheless perhaps you did garner some undue scrutiny. I am sure it was not as bad as you felt it to be but people can truly be ignorant and mean.

We challenge their core beliefs that people are a fixed binary, either male or female and the doubt, somewhat about themselves, that we inject into the situation makes them uneasy, heck, uncomfortable.

Not sure of how to react, not sure of how to treat you, they decide to sidestep the issue, to tiptoe around it.

But you are there, you aren't going away, and since you seem to be an outgoing, cheerful person you will win after a while.

Hugs,
Persephone.

It is kind of what happens in the mainstream world.However,people there have a lot more space to take a "wide berth" around you,rather than engage..It doesn't surprise me that it was a couple of women that chatted with you..most often my experiences.. They will get used to you and soon discover that you didn't lose your brain in the process of "looking different" from the way they thought they knew you!

Seeing someone like us is still pretty rare in this world so it takes time before some will get more used to it and discover what a wonderful person they are seeing and that there is no reason to be afraid of you.

That is what it is, not a dislike but a fear of you.

Were any of these folks people that you have known in your profession? I'm actually a bit surprised at the response. Seems your customers are much more open minded!

next time wear jeans.

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Originally Posted by kimdl93

Were any of these folks people that you have known in your profession? I'm actually a bit surprised at the response. Seems your customers are much more open minded!

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Not really Kim. There are over 400 Vets here in the metro area. The ones I know are getting older and most of the people there last night were younger (30-40) which was why the wide berth surprised me. Younger people seem to be less judgmental. There were a couple I knew, and they didn't recognize me until I talked to them. No one was mean and maybe I was overly sensitive to the looks (well except the woman in the uniform of what the gay women around here wear and her hat on backwards...I still don't get that look on anyone. Her look was evil and I don't know why. I wasn't even interested in her partner). Usually when people sit together they talk a little. Leaving the seats on either side open kind of bugged me. I wasn't wearing much perfume, I did bathe before I went...

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Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele

next time wear jeans.

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Gawd forbid. Jeans are for mucking out stalls and doing yard work. I am reporting you to Karren :). I always dress nicely for seminars, I am sort of old school. I think when we are representing a profession, we should look like we care about how we look. The majority of the people there last night were in scrubs. When I was in vet school, scrubs were to be worn in surgery, when you left surgery you covered them with a gown or lab jacket. The reason for scrubs were twofold. Keep your other clothes clean (blood and stuff) and to not bring outside dirt into the surgery. Now they are standard issue. And NO I rarely wore a jacket and tie.

Oh well, it was interesting. The presenters were friendly. For the most part it was what I expected. Double take, then back into their own world

you can care about how you look and wear jeans
I wear jeans and I care a lot about how I look

one time I was at a family event and my cousins girlfriend came in dressed to the nines..red 4" heels included..
my cousins mom (my aunt verna yes verna!!) said..."oh jesus mary and joseph, she looks a like ***** at a christening"...

that's what goes through my mind

The woman who may have been lesbian may have viewed you as a interloper in that she does not see you as a woman and this combined with misandry which seems to be found at higher levels among lesbian woman combined with a form or radical feminism becomes extremely toxic.

It has been my experience that you have to be cautious with lesbian women until you have a sense of their attitudes toward transsexuals.

You may unfortunately find out that there is just as much hostility from lesbians and gay men toward transsexuals as there is from heterosexual cis-genders.

You are experiencing the loneliness of the transsexual where everyone moves away from you.

Many people are going to react to you as if you are mentally ill or have a evil agenda. This is just one of harsh realities of being transsexual and I think why many go stealth once they can.

Transsexuals stand at the exact center of the gender wars being crushed by both sides.

This is why I have tried to remain invisible while living truly but I do admire those transsexuals that live boldly. I personally am to sensitive to the hate and cruelty and fear the potential for violence. I never was able to develop the thick skin that others do.

Remember that you are living in a tightly controlled gender binary that serves the interests of those who participate in it and they are participating in something they do not even know exists so they have a subconscious visceral reaction to those who step outside of it.

Look at the rage expressed against parents of transsexual children. Transsexuals touch people's most primitive fears.

Be true to who you are but stay safe.

I had not thought about the age differential, and I would have expected a better response from younger professionals. Is there something I don't know about Vets?

Could just be your age and on top of that your style. If you are dressed too professional, people are going to wonder because usually they take the opportunity to relax...its time off work. Maybe you dress too much like their boss does and it makes them feel less relaxed. Then on top of that, maybe they can't quite figure out why you have so much makeup on or if you are TG and is it going to be an issue for them.

...and if it makes you feel any better, I would say I have experienced the same thing in everyday life where gender is not involved. People tend to stick to their own cliques.

[QUOTE=Lorileah;3292284

Yeah, this is going to be fun.[/QUOTE]

Knowing you, I can actually see the sarcasm dripping out of my monitor. I didn't know that was possible!

However, change the tone of that phrase and it's a complete 180. There will be fun and I'm sure you'll find it. I don't want to just flippantly say "It'll get better" but I'm still guessing that it will. Be you, enjoy life, and hopefully it'll get reflected back to you.

Knowing me, I bet it'll be hard to take that without a serious grain of salt, but I'm pulling for you Lori!

-Bree

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Originally Posted by Lorileah

No one was mean and maybe I was overly sensitive to the looks ...

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I think you might be overly sensitive except to the lesbian's mean look and that couple who avoided you big time. Can't say for sure about this lesbian, but many (some?) of them are biased against transwomen, whom they feel appropriate the female identity. And that couple might have had dinosaur attitudes in keeping with Archie Bunker. I suppose there will always be a few people in every crowd who refuse to get it.

That said, most people are a little leery at first of people or situations they are not familiar with and I think this is natural. So IMO it will up to you to be proactive and make it fun, like Bree says, and engage in friendly business chit-chat with people.

Two other observations: I know that you like to dress up (and you always look nice), but maybe next time you could do business casual? Maybe you won't want to create as much of a visual separation from the others with the clothes? Also, maybe next time you could sit immediately beside someone who is already seated and start chatting with them? :)

I'm very sorry that you felt bad and I hope that the next seminar will be more pleasant. :sad:

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Originally Posted by KellyJameson

The woman who may have been lesbian may have viewed you as a interloper in that she does not see you as a woman and this combined with misandry which seems to be found at higher levels among lesbian woman combined with a form or radical feminism becomes extremely toxic.

It has been my experience that you have to be cautious with lesbian women until you have a sense of their attitudes toward transsexuals.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

I think you might be overly sensitive except to the lesbian's mean look and that couple who avoided you big time. Can't say for sure about this lesbian, but many (some?) of them are biased against transwomen, whom they feel appropriate the female identity. And that couple might have had dinosaur attitudes in keeping with Archie Bunker. I suppose there will always be a few people in every crowd who refuse to get it

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I had never had that experience with lesbians before, they had always seemed to take me in (knowing I wasn't a threat I suppose). See you learn something new everyday :) This lady was just angry, maybe she didn't want to be there. The two women with her are vet techs I have seen before, I don't remember seeing her ever before. So maybe her SO dragged her to the meeting. We were allowed a guest

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Originally Posted by kimdl93

Is there something I don't know about Vets?

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to add to the above...yes, vets and vet techs will go to the electric chair if a free meal is included. Techs especially and can't blame them for what they get paid, can't live on Ramen forever

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Originally Posted by Bree Wagner

Knowing you, I can actually see the sarcasm dripping out of my monitor. I didn't know that was possible!

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Me? Sarcastic? Not me.

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However, change the tone of that phrase and it's a complete 180.

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Good point. The plan is to desensitize them. With time they won't even notice me. .

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Two other observations: I know that you like to dress up (and you always look nice), but maybe next time you could do business casual?

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Don't know what that is. I hate when people post the details of what they wore but here goes, black panties, waist nipper, black cami with bra, Black knee length dress with floral pattern and Mary Janes with 1.5" heels. ;) I thought it was very business but maybe not so casual?

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Maybe you won't want to create as much of a visual separation from the others with the clothes?[

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Well most the women were is scrubs...did I mention that I think scrubs are what you wear in surgery? I don't do outside the clinic in scrubs.

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Also, maybe next time you could sit immediately beside someone who is already seated and start chatting with them? :)

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It was a weird set up for a presentation...long table with chairs down either side. The opposite side of me was full and I sat across from the women who were already there. We did exchange pleasantries. This is what usually happens and these women were the ones who went about their business (after that one of the women I knew took the last open chair on that side.) When the long table filled (I guess they didn't plan more people) they opened up some high tops in another room and placed them in the doorways. The people who reacted unexpectedly (that is what I am going with now) came late (weather sort of sucked and the place was hard to find...so...) And yes I was hyper observant. Cat...rocking chair...you know. For all I know I would have gotten the same reaction as a male because I would have been unusual still (men are getting to be the minority in veterinary medicine) and I would have been dressed , well nicely then also.

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I'm very sorry that you felt bad and I hope that the next seminar will be more pleasant. :sad:

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We shall see. There is a huge seminar at the end of the month, hundreds (ok maybe 120) people, all walks of the profession, all day long (5 hours credit...and cocktails!!). It is a Sunday, so no one will getting off work and they will dress accordingly. Suits and ties for presenters and sales reps only. The women will be in the whole spectrum, even some in skirts. Overall I expected the usual glance look away glance again, I didn't expect the evil look nor the wide berth. I expect that on the Sunday it will be a little different, probably because I won't be seeing everyone and I will know a few more people who are going to be stunned. Stay tuned.

It's interesting that men are becoming a minority in veterinary medicine. Mother same is true in (human) primary care.

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Originally Posted by Lorileah

Don't know what that is. I hate when people post the details of what they wore but here goes, black panties, waist nipper, black cami with bra, Black knee length dress with floral pattern and Mary Janes with 1.5" heels. ;) I thought it was very business but maybe not so casual?

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LOL. OK, here are some pics. Something dressier than scrubs, but not too dressy and especially not too feminine, so as to not be too visually different from the other females:

http://washingtonprogram.ucdavis.edu...al%20Women.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-HpeUerq8cR...ess+casual.JPG (but without the chunky jewelry and with lower heels)

And since they're all wearing scrubs, if you like blue jeans you can dress them up. I really like the flat shoes and the understated jewelry. I think this is my favorite of all of them:

http://fashionistatrends.com/wp-cont...-casual-29.jpg

What do you think?

pls tell me more about the panties

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Originally Posted by ReineD

not too dressy and especially not too feminine, so as to not be too visually different from the other females

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: Even all that was dressier than what most vets wear.

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http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-HpeUerq8cR...ess+casual.JPG (but without the chunky jewelry and with lower heels)

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Uh huh..see the blue dress? That is almost like what I had on except mine had floral.

[/QUOTE]

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Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele

pls tell me more about the panties

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OMG Let me tell you....you know, you know I underdress all the time I mean what if a lightning bolt hit me or something ....;)


and Bree says I am sarcastic. I don't get it :idontknow:

Lori, the 3bp.blogspot.com link ... I forgot to say that the more casual of all those outfits I think might work. I agree that some are dressier than others.

Would you not consider the blue jeans outfit? I think this would be perfect, especially if everyone else is wearing scrubs! :)

truthfully Reine, blue jeans IMO are for doing yard work, hiking and changing oil. I have similar feelings about capris. :yucky:, wear shorts or wear slacks...I don't get the almost ankle length at all...do your ankles get hot???? I will say though that I own colored jeans but nothing screams "Man in women's clothing" more when I wear them I have a very straight body and even with padding, I look like a guy when I wear jeans (I added his because this morning I mowed the lawn...it was twice as high as normal with all the rain). Now if I wear heels with the jeans it helps, but as so many have stated here that would not be causal. I think dressing "nicely" has become a lost art. I don't think you need to look like June Cleaver but yo don't need to look like you don't care either. Maybe I will outgrow that.

Well I get the chance next Sunday. This one though is at the zoo. A dress would be strange (maybe I can borrow a stroller so I blend better:thinking:) Depending on the weather, maybe shorts.

I really don't think the clothes had a lot to do with any of the reactions since I was seated when the people in question arrived.

You should try just dressing to the average of whatever the group chooses and see if the reaction is different. That would be the easiest way to know if that was an issue or not at the initial meeting I think. Then next time you can choose whatever you wish based on the reaction you get from both styles of dress. Don't forget that women are judged quite differently than men when it comes to their clothing choices and styles. Maybe that had something to do with how it felt to you that the lesbian lady was staring daggers at you. Perhaps she felt that she was sharing that identity (LGBT) with you in the group and so was a little more vested in your clothes choices than just the average participant? Who knows for sure of course, but it wouldn't hurt to try both options and see which one works the best for you. Hope you have fun on Sunday!

Not all jeans are meant for yard work ;), maybe you should go shopping and find a pair of jeans that you love to wear so much you'd never let them get too dirty :)

I recently started going back to my professional meetings. Only 4 people knew who I use to be. No one else recognized me. Now, my meeting was a lunch meeting and most are professional, so me wearing a dress was not out of line. It is what I had on for work that day. A few people did talk to me and I knew them but they had no clue. I kept things light as I didn't think it was appropriate to talk about me. I was told by a friend that questions were raised after I left about who the girl was. So now they know and we'll see how things go in two weeks when we have another meeting. Yesterday, I went to a professional seminar where I knew a lot of people but only two people knew me. They all knew my former self. So in time I will introduce myself again to them. Is it the right way? I don;t know but I don;t feel I want to come out to a lot of people in that setting. I've been living full time since Feb.