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I keep thinking about why crossdressing is such a taboo. As far as I know it occurs in every culture, new or old. Happens at every social level. It's not confined to colour, background or geographic location. It's been happening since the dawn of time. And yet it seems to be taboo in all societies. So many other customs have seen great change in acceptance, but not crossdressing.
Do you know of any cultures where crossdressing is seen as acceptable by the majority?
Christen x
Samoan Fa'afaines But that's more like a recognized 3rd gender.
Similar to Barbie's comment, there are the Hijra's in India, the Muxes in Mexico and the Two Spirit native Americans.
All can be considered as a third gender but are generally accepted and in some cultures it's considered a blessing.
It's widely accepted in Thailand as well.
It's taboo because it isn't considered the norm by the society that we live in.
Christen, while you are correct that cross dressing has existed everywhere and every time. But iti s not accepted anywhere (no, not even Thailand. Ladyboys are not cross dressers) because cross dressing fundamentally challenges manhood as it is typically understood in any society. How can one be a "man" while one is presenting as a woman?
I am going to say that CDng is something that lies in between.... so the problem is variance and the fact that people cannot accept as readily someone who is either or.
Another recognized third gender would be what is now referred to collectively as two-spirited peoples among Native North Americans though among many groups this was about "crossacting" rather than merely "crossdressing".
It is an interesting thing to look at though, whether or not crossdressing was traditionally taboo in most societies. I think I might just see what I can find outside of third gender classifications.
Pink, are you saying that among the weird, we are weird??
I wouldn't call it crossdressing but the native americans had sort of a reverse culture whare the men dressed in bright colors and wore fancy head gear while the women were generally in drab.
Essentially, we live in a society with very rigidly defined gender norms and although it is not ideal, our society is also built up on masculine being seen as superior and ideal. While our society tends to look at any form of gender transgression as taboo, it is even more so when a male does it because to many he is perceived as not wanting to "be a man" and weak. Even more disturbing is how a man dressing in a noticeably feminine way is perceived as gay. While there certainly are gay men who crossdress or are big time gender non-conformists, the overwhelming majority of them are very gender conforming. Also, far more straight guys like to crossdress or have some other way of expressing a noticeable level of femininity, but they more often than not keep that part well out of sight.
Ultimately, two things have to happen for crossdressing not to be considered taboo. First, it must be seen as a completely separate issue from sexual orientation (which it is). Unfortunately, far to many straight guys who transgress gender norms will never come forward about this. It's unfortunate since they have a lot more power than they realize. Second and most important, society must start valuing femininity as much as masculinity
I've heard crossdressing is quite accepted in Japan. There's even a maid cafe with CD as a server. Or maybe those are more like crossplay I guess?
And no, crossdressing is not even heard in Thailand much. Most are ladyboys as Jennifer said. I'm from Thailand so I know :)
Christen,
India, Japan and Thailand?
I really don't know about the majority side of it though.
I notice Jennifer gives a contra view on this.
I am no expert....but it goes waayy back in history....and still taboo....can you imagine being a cd in the 1700's...with those corsets, dresses wigs etc..on some Mozart type stuff...i saw on the National Geographic channel that Ben Franklin hung out in a brothel with cd's...dont know if its true...but interesting
Sorry it was me that said that crossdressing was accepted in Thailand. I know it's not the same thing as being transgendered or ladyboys.
I just assumed that given the amount of ladyboys in Thailand that crossdressing wouldn't be seen as such a taboo subject.
Is there a link? If there wasn't so many ladyboys in Thailand and less acceptance, would there be more crossdressers? or would it matter?
I honestly think I would have followed a different path if being transgendered was so acceptable where I grew up and I know the path isn't an easy one.
Christen, I'd put all my money on both genetics and hormones. Probably hormones for a major part of it but those are controlled by genetics and with all the possible combinations and switches involved, there are surely going to be some "glitches" creating variations that we see every day: blue eyes are relatively new in geological time 6-10 thousand years, before that everyone was brown-eyed. Could be something that came as a result of a defective Neanderthal gene--who knows. There is new evidence that modern man interbred with Neanderthals as there are genetic markers but we seem to be selecting them out over time. For the children who are certain at a very early age that they are not the sex that they seem to be, I suspect it is very much a genetic issue, for those who start at puberty, I suspect that hormones under the influence of genes is the problem, and since a lot have reported here that in their later years the cding has really kicked in, it is again a time of hormonal change in which estrogen starts playing a larger role for men. Moobs are estrogen acting in the fatty tissue that causes moobs, and gynecomastia though similar, I believe to be something else when it starts in puberty. It is for me a better explanation to why we do this rather than the often rationalized reasons like "my mother ate bagels on fridays" or I was brought up with lots of women around. I would say that being raised exclusively around women would affect ones thinking and views or the world but NOT how one would want to dress.\
The reason I think it is so abhorrent is that it involves deceit in a very visible way. We wouldn't want people dressed as cops running around only to find out that they weren't. trust would become a major issue, though it is well nigh impossible NOT to recognize a female dressed pretty much however as one, from a pretty good distance ,and being able to see the face.
All the places in the world that have a "3rd gender" usually seems to involve some religious aspect and there would be no real comparison to a society that had 3 "genders" walking around, man woman and CD. Religion provides so many exceptions to a lot of things: human sacrifices , for example.
Sadly, I don't think this will ever be accepted by society because there is nothing to gain in its acceptance. It is not the same a lesbian or gay people where the major difference is in sexual orientation but we are not otherwise "fooled" by their presentation. in fact, gays and lesbians don't seem to be all that accepted in society now despite the media, and marriage possibilities..
TS is only physically available now due to modern medicine and surgery. I suspect that in historical times the TS were part of the cd community, if it is not a modern construct. We see them as either female or male. There are no "traps" to fall into.
No matter what time in history I feel it's always been a taboo thing to do. I think it's because people don't understand why a male would want to move toward the female side, and in effect, reject their "male privilege". I think guys who are not TG just don't understand the attraction of feminine things.
that is was a disguise for a male prostitute rather that what we think of as a CD. It may very well been the same sort of "disguise" that was used in the theater eg: women's parts were played by MEN until Charles II decreed that women would play women's parts. See the movie/book about Ned Kynaston (Stage Beauty is the movie) the greatest of theatrical female impersonators .Quote:
Originally Posted by Adriana Moretti
Thanks to you all. As with many things in this area, we probably hold more knowledge than anyone else, but still we don't have definitive answers. Funny thing too, that I think until the late 1800's the term boy didn't even exist, and all young males were dressed in the same clothes, hair styles, etc. as female children until they got to a certain age (if you look at Renoir's paintings and see a little girl, you are looking at his son). And guess what, nothing suggests that they grew up to be crossdressers or want to become women. Does that say anything our perceptions of 'normal' .. not that we aren't, I'm officially normal (psychologist said so).
Hello Christen,
why does crossdressing feel like a taboo subject , well just type in Crossdressing and hit the keyboard and see all the sites that come up , how many are like this one which Admin and the Mods work very hard not to let anything seedy come into this one ,so when the general public start to look at cross dressing they start to assume that it is done for one reason and simply do not understand that there are many aspects of wanting to cross dress and in a way you know this so you are judging your selfe by what you think other people are thinking of you so you have to get past that and just believe in yourself and why you are like it , not always an easy thing to do because you can go about quietly doing your thing but some of the pubic can be quite verbal about it which can being this taboo thinking back into your mined .
Hi,
Two details here.
Define crossdressing , men wore dress's skirts and makeup wigs heeled shoes and a lot more and looked in many case's more feminine than women 1400 to 1700. and acted in a way more feminine many did not all .
The SCA today reinacts those times and im a member of the SCA,
there is a 3 rd aspect here often over looked call it what you may = 3rd gender= what ever ,
we are here to stay maybe 10,000 of us are not many world wide, and id say theres many more just not known reported or dont wont others knowing and we are all different in our own ways some of us dont conform to the preconcived idear of western thinking of male or female ,
we are a mix of both made up of both so rule us out we dont exist as many people would like to do because they are so blinded and dont wont to understand ,
Well we are still a part of every other human beings of this world just born different thats all.
And we have as much to offer as any one else,
As for the clothes we wear when all said and done they are just our body coverings fashion has made them into what is the preconceved idear that its only men wear this or that and women the other to mark a difference between what we wear, take all our clothes off we then see men and women and for some of us we dont look much different though some of us do and that makes us then as being different, i cant help giveing mixed messages of myself though im female its distracted by my facial features,
Westeren socity is so strung up about clothes well some with in socity that they miss the person and only see what they think your not,
...noeleena...
Neoleena, I think the idea of how colonial American men dressed and lived, or acted has been stretched over time. Yes, there is definitely the formal dressing which by today's standards would almost appear to be cross dressing. I would not say that it is more feminine than what the women wore though. For everyday work attire it was not very interesting at all.
While I am quite sure that cross dressing has been around for a very long time, with the exception of some the native cultures across various countries (we are not talking today though but the past before the influence of Europeans . . . not a hack on Europeans ladies just history), cross dressing was always taboo. Some will say that men in the 1700s dressed in fine garb, wigs, make-up so it was more accepted then . . . going to disagree. That was fashion which was set by the wealthy elite to showcase just how wealthy you really were. Men of no fortune did not done feminine style garb but dressed drab as that is all they could afford. Likewise men of influence and wealth did not go about in public dressed in corsets and dresses because it was not accepted. Did CDing occur then, you bet, in public possibly but not likely.
WRT today, I would say it is still taboo because people see it as an aberration to the natural way of things. I mean heck why would a guy want to dress like a woman, act like a woman and be accepted as a woman. We always talk about male privilege like it is some secret order with handshakes and funny hats . . . I don't have a hat nor do I see myself getting any privilege of being a guy but alas there is an under torrent of such a thing and why would a guy want to give that up. Hence the taboo, you are obviously flawed/damaged in some way if you want to give up the glories of being male to become female. This won't change until society's view on gender expression changes. So I am afraid it will stay taboo until people look around and say "Hey . . . you can still have your funny hat and handshake . . . welcome to the club of male privilege regardless of your gender or gender expression."
Hugs
Isha
I know of several non-western cultures that are far more accepting of gender variants. A related question might be 'why is western civilization, esp. The US and GB so repressed?"
Kim, the U.S especially seems to be among the more repressed of societies, with exception to middle east society, which is the most repressed. Why it is that we are so uptight when it comes to gender variance and sexuality.... I really do not know. We are coming around a little bit, but still far behind many other cultures and societies.
This one always gets me thinking.... Perhaps transgenderism is something most people simply cannot grasp. Sexuality is an easier grasp than TG is. Even if there are many who do not agree with certain sexuality, they can still grasp the idea of it.
I know this is a far stretch.... but marine mammals such as whales, they never actually sleep. They shut down parts of the brain for rest periods. As humans, we cannot grasp this. We can't partially shut down a part of our brain while also remaining awake to function. So, for a very large majority of people, the idea that gender is mixed is something they simply cannot grasp. Some can accept that it happens and be ok with those that are TG. But most, because there is no grasp of concept, I believe that is what makes it so taboo, IMO
I hope you got a certificate and framed it! ;-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Christen
There is currently legislation before the Arizona governor that would allow businesses (and individuals) to not provide services for the gay (and read LBGT) community based on religious beliefs. That could extend to many groups of people. Use your imagination. So, it is VERY unlikely that if the LGBT community is going to be discriminated against despite all the acceptance hype in the press and the 20 states that allow marriage, anyone who hopes to fool the average citizen with cross dressing is bound to be disappointed in the outcome. Society has absolutely NOTHING to gain, and even when they do, they seem to vote for the people who would turn it on its head. a few people in the world --comparatively speaking-- are accepting of different life styles, but don't bet that you are going to be allowed to strut your stuff with impunity.Quote:
Originally Posted by gendermutt
check out this article in today's NYTIMES
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/22/us...e-gays.html?hp