Do men or women accept us gender variants more?

After reading the threads "Why are women so quick to kick us to the curb like garbage?" and "Crossdresser is a pervert?", I have another broader question.

This question is for all MTF gender variants, including CDers, TSes, gender fluid, and anyone else on the TG spectrum.

1. Are men or women, on average, more likely to accept us when it comes to dating? By us, this includes all MTF gender variants - CDers, TSes, gender fluids, and anyone else on the TG spectrum. Why do you think this might be so?

2. Are men or women, on average, more likely to accept us when it comes to situations other than dating, such as being friends, work, family members, or casual acquaintances? By us, this includes all MTF gender variants - CDers, TSes, gender fluids, and anyone else on the TG spectrum. Why do you think this might be so?

3. Do you think an out CDer, or an out TS, faces worse discrimination in society?


My answer: I'm not personally sure if men or women accept us more. I do think there are specific reasons men and women might fear us.

Reasons men fear us:
1. We are a threat to their masculinity
2. If they are attracted to us, they might think they're gay

Reasons women fear us:
1. If they perceive us to look prettier than them, regardless of how well we pass, they might feel jealous of us because we get more male attention than them
2. They might think we're perverts trying to invade their spaces

Edit: I changed the underlined portion, because I do not want to get accused of saying that CDers or TSes are prettier than GGs. I am talking about the perception of a GG, which I have seen evidence of on this forum.

In my experience, I have a better time with women. I am married, so I cannot speak to romantic relationships outside of that - as in I don't date. However, my best friends who are part of my trans* life are all genetic women.

I have no male friends who participate in my trans* life. I have a few trans* friends but I generally do not get along with most trans* people. I have many female friends and we get on marvelously.

Overall, however, I have seldom had issue with most of humanity. I don't go doing stupid stuff and people in general tend to leave me be.

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Originally Posted by Michelle789

1. Are men or women, on average, more likely to accept us when it comes to dating? ...

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Um...neither? My experience is that more women will date a CD as long as the CD isn't a long term or permanent thing. I find that men sniff around Trans women but really are looking for a kink or thrill or doing something...different

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2. Are men or women, on average, more likely to accept us when it comes to situations other than dating...

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I have not found too many women who won't be my friend. Guys are scared (except see above)

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3. Do you think an out CDer, or an out TS, faces worse discrimination in society?

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honestly? Neither (equal). TSs may have a slight advantage because of practice and the fact we have to make it work. CDers tend to be more skittish because it is a off and on thing. I have to present this way, I can't allow anyone to be bigoted

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Reasons men fear us:
1. We are a threat to their masculinity
2. If they are attracted to us, they might think they're gay

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maybe on the surface. I don't see how we could threaten masculinity. If you mean we make them question their sexuality I would maybe agree more. They usually don't think they are gay, they think they are playing with someone who appears female and they don't consider anything beyond that

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Reasons women fear us:
1. If we look prettier than them, regardless of how well we pass, they might feel jealous of us because we get more male attention than them
2. They might think we're perverts trying to invade their spaces

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:facepalm: no no no no no. if you even THINK you can be prettier than a GG you need to reexamine your perspective. And they do not fear you taking their space. Why do women fear us. Because we are an unknown quantity, you fear that which you don't understand

I think it mostly depends on the individual person (man or woman) myself. :)

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Originally Posted by Lorileah

:facepalm: no no no no no. if you even THINK you can be prettier than a GG you need to reexamine your perspective.

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From our perspective we can't be prettier than a GG. However, what makes you think a GG can't be jealous of us, maybe there's some aspect of our looks? Why do the wives of cross-dressers sometimes place stipulations that the CDer can't dress or look prettier than the wife?

If that's the case than does this mean that a transgender man can never be more macho or manly than a cis-gendered man?

Hi Michelle . . . in response to your questions . . .

1. Are men or women, on average, more likely to accept us when it comes to dating?

I really can't speak from a position of knowledge on this one as I am in a long term relationship with my wife so don't go looking for dates.

2. Are men or women, on average, more likely to accept us when it comes to situations other than dating, such as being friends, work, family members, or casual acquaintances?

I do have some experience with this as I am out to several friends and my entire family. I find that for the most part my female friends have all accepted Isha with no issues and she receives invitations to "girls nights". The husbands of some of these women are also friends of mine and they know as well with no issues and boy me still gets invites to "guy nights" (all have seen me dressed as Isha at one point or another). In fact I spent the greater part of today helping a friend clear brush with some other guys and my friend (owner of the property) casually said over beers "Cheryl wants to know if you are coming to girls night next weekend". The other guys laughed a bit (in good fun) and wanted to know if I drink beer or girly drinks when I am out with the girls :)

Now it has not been all sunshine and lollypops. I have lost a very dear friend (more like a brother) to this. Several work colleagues while they know avoid direct eye contact (guys and girls both). Some people can process and others can't. I don't sweat the ones who can't or won't process . . . their baggage not mine.

3. Do you think an out CDer, or an out TS, faces worse discrimination in society?

I am out at work but in the Canadian military being TG is not an issue and you cannot be discriminated against according to regulations. Does that mean some people don't discriminate (covertly)? Not at all, I am sure that I have been passed up for a tasking or two due to the narrow minded opinions of some . . . however if I can prove it then there will be h%$$ to pay. Discrimination in society? Again with the exception of a few bad moments, rude comments, laughs and guffaws, I don't personally feel discriminated. Nobody has kicked me out of Starbucks or said my kind is not welcomed. However, covert discrimination? Sure it is there.

Hugs

Isha

As for women's views on us, I'd like to offer this:

Whereas we may feel we cannot be "prettier" than a GG, my wife has expressed that she is sometimes jealous of how I look dressed up. My wife is not a girly-girl and much more of a "tomboy." She does not wear skirts or dresses or heels or makeup - a by-product of being a children's daycare worker and not having much opportunity for dolling up. I am a professional make-up artist and have been dressing for most of my adult life and this makes her feel "inferior" sometimes. We've worked through this and she is even proud of me and what I can do, but I am always careful not to "outshine" her and to remind her that she is the most beautiful woman I have ever known.

As to whether women "fear" us, I find that they are often unsure about us at first. As was said earlier, we are an unknown quantity. For the most part, I find that once a gal figures out what's going on that things get going very well fast enough. I have had it expressed to me that women fear "competition" and that once they determine that we are not a threat to them in "competing" for a mate, all is fairly okay. I certainly am not looking for a mate - I have my wife - so I generally get on fine with women after a moment of sorting the whole thing out.

I don't know that any of that is earth-shattering, but I felt like sharing if it helps any.

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Originally Posted by Michelle789

However, what makes you think a GG can't be jealous of us, maybe there's some aspect of our looks?

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:facepalm: again. You really asked that question? Really? If one GG on these boards will honestly say that they are jealous of their CDing spouse I will take it back. Really? I am not saying they can't be jealous of maybe skin tone or legs or a body part, women are jealous of other women for that all the time, but a woman jealous of her CDing husbands total look to the point of throwing him out? No no no.

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Why do the wives of cross-dressers sometimes place stipulations that the CDer can't dress or look prettier than the wife?

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Now THAT is a new one and I have been here for over 5 years. "Honey you can dress as long as you aren't prettier than I am" I want to meet that woman.

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If that's the case than does this mean that a transgender man can never be more macho or manly than a cis-gendered man?

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OMG now you are confusing masculinity with looks. And machismo? I think I need to go get a drink

Cases of women making stipulations on a a CDer not looking prettier or more feminine and to still be the "man" of the relationship, or where another CDer reminds another CDer to do so because of how the wife might feel.

This example is one where a CDer tells another CDer, and I will look for more examples on this. I remember seeing examples recently, although it will take some time to find them.

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?211022-Girlfriend-helping-me-through-what-my-mom-did&p=3463336&highlight=#post3463336

Read post #8 thoroughly.

My responses:

1. No first-hand knowledge but from the number of CDers with marital problems - neither will accept us.

2. As Michelle, I now have quite a number of friends and acquaintences - all female. It may be I am more comfortable with females but I suspect that women best understand the joy of being female while men's lifetime training of manliness can't cope.

3. No knowledge of TS experience, but I am fortunate not to have experienced much discrimination.

I'm just going to give my thoughts on the acceptance issue, as individuals we make up our own mind, and I would think that it's 50/50 between men and women accepting, but if you ask them as couples or as a small group the same people will chip in with the prejudices, far fewer people will say I'm OK with it. Men may then be less accepting because of the fear of what might be read into his comments ! Women may say Oh he's just a pervert, as some sort of deterrent to her partner !

Trying to categorise why men or women fear us assumes that no one else has problems and hangups !
WE are not the only ones with problems some suffer far worse !

With or without all the categories mentioned there are still good partners and bad partners it's still pot luck !!

Men are by nature preprogrammed to only have two thoughts when confronted by something new- Threat, or potential mate? (actually, throw in 'Should I have a beer now?' and we've covered ALL male thoughts) Gender variance confuses them.

I find that with men it all depends on their level of overall intelligence driving an open,accepting mind grasping concepts that others fear or choose not to. Women,much the same.However,they know that there has to be "available head space" for a new relationship to have any priority. So if a T girl is self obsessed,there isn't much space to give others. There is an expression often used in Trinidad.."You don't go looking for gold at the blacksmith"..So I can apply that to where a "transwoman " may go to find accepting and inclusive friends..."the arts" and other creative freestyle groups..where everyone is a "bit different" yet accepted as the same..

A person is a person, regardless of gender. I think in general, as much as anyone thinks it is not true, the majority of society does not care. As far as dating, that trims the level down a ton. Depends on if you date a girl....or a woman. Same thing with a boy....or a man. I say that in a sense that a girl will judge you by what society thinks of you, and your outer looks/money/car and material possessions. A woman will judge you on character, career (showing dedication), and your ability to compromise from day one. Same thing with a grown man...if you date them...only heard from a friend of mine that men work the same as women when "shopping" LOL. Hope it helps.

I think men are dogs and would date anything or ahyone if given the right opportunity. Men are not to particular most of the time when it comes to getting what they want when it is possible without blowback.

1. Women
2. Women
3. CDer.

I agree, There is no distinguishable difference in my experience for the raw numbers.
It is getting better all the time though.

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Originally Posted by shelley johnson

I think men are dogs and would date anything or ahyone if given the right opportunity. Men are not to particular most of the time when it comes to getting what they want when it is possible without blowback.

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Thats rubbish dont tar all men with the same brush thank you, before i met my bf i went on plenty of dates where guys have been nothing but kind and considerate and treated me very well, granted not all are like that but it does depend on where your picking guys up from.

To the topic in question...answer 1 and 2, well i prefer to have girls as friends i seem to have fallen into this way, its a lot to do with my dressing from a very young age and all my friends growing up were girls, they seem to accept me just for me, dont get me wrong i relate well to other gay guys, bi and cds as well but girls better, lol straight guys who are not even cds dont know what to make of me and i think feel a bit uneasy around me lol they dont need to be but i suppose a gay guy dressed in girls clothes is pretty much like WTF! lol so its hard to friend them :( .....as for number 3, yea CDer

I think women tolerate us better, as we are not seen as a threat; some feel sorry for us, many believe that we are all gay, so they don't feel they have to behave carefully around us. And because they figure we're trying to attract gay men, some even feel a camaraderie with us. But the one thing they don't feel, is sexual attraction towards us.
Men on the other hand don't seem to like us AT ALL; cautious tolerance is the best you can hope for from them.

I can't really give a comment to #1 as I have no experience with this.

As far as #2, I would venture a guess as to either. But, I would, also, say that there would be a greater likelihood of someone becoming friends with you if they, too, were a "member" of some discriminated against group, such as a gay man or a lesbian woman (is that redundant?). That's just my opinion.

As far as #3, I think any member of an oppressed group who puts her/himself out there in mainstream society, and, basically, gives mainstream society the "finger", is always going to be more ostracized and face more discrimination than someone who doesn't. I'm not sure how someone in the closet faces discrimination, really. I guess it could be indirectly. But, certainly, not directly.

1. Men - this one isn't close, as long as you include "one time hookup" in the definition of date.
2. Women. Men I know are super uncomfortable around me in public. Women are mostly fine.
3. TS - sorry CDs, but y'all can slip into your man suit to avoid bad situations, like getting a job. However it's really bad for both groups.