Why are only CDs blamed for not disclosing before marriage?

Leigh started a thread about tough decisions, and Tink made the response below.

I didn't want to hijack the thread, so I started my own.

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Originally Posted by Tinkerbell-GG

But that's the problem - most wives never meet the 'whole person' until many years later. If they had, they might have made the decision not to continue the relationship and spared everyone this heartache. Read the thread in Loved Ones asking GGs if they'd have married their H if they'd known all the facts about his crossdressing. Most, including myself, said no.

So are we wives really selfish? Or did we just never get the opportunity to choose the spouse and life we really wanted? That's an incredibly confronting thing to realise after many years of marriage. I don't know much about Leigh's situation, but if she came out to her wife after many years, then her wife's identity must be shattered. As now is Leigh's, by permanently purging this side of herself.

There are no winners here :( But, as Sara Jessica pointed out, full honesty at the very start of a relationship usually prevents this situation.

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Well I have a counterpoint to that. Maybe women don't fully disclose issues to their future husbands. Below, you can see real examples from my 36 year marriage. Some of these were only disclosed to me within the last few years. Several years after my wife discovered my crossdressing.

I understand where you're coming from, but I look at the other side of the coin. Why is it the CD that has to come clean before marriage? Why not the wife also.

Should my wife have told me that she wasn't really excited about having sex before we got married.

Should she have told me that the reason that she wasn't all that excited about sex because of some incidents that took place when she was a child? She probably thought she got over it, but maybe she just convinced herself that it wouldn't affect her as an adult.

That would be about the same as me convinving myself that CDing was just a fetish and would go away once I was married.

Before we were even married 2 years, my wife was diagnosed with MS, and we've been making accommodations to live with MS for the last 34 years. Yes, I understand that MS is a sickness, but I believe that her MS has been a much more negative aspect of our marriage than my CDing.

What's the expression. "As goes the goose, so goes the gander."

I don't see how anyone's CDing can be compared to an illness or a traumatizing experience as a child. Having Gender dysphoria and being a TS is one thing, just wanting to wear the clothes holds no merit when someones life or well being is in danger.

If you found out that your wife was... Lets say into furries and didn't tell you, then there's a comparison but your reasons are not valid. And as someone with a Mom that has MS, I find your comment repulsive.

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Originally Posted by Sometimes Steffi

...Before we were even married 2 years, my wife was diagnosed with MS, and we've been making accommodations to live with MS for the last 34 years. Yes, I understand that MS is a sickness, but I believe that her MS has been a much more negative aspect of our marriage than my CDing....

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Wow. Selfish beyond description. Get some perspective.

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Originally Posted by Sometimes Steffi

Well I have a counterpoint to that. Maybe women don't fully disclose issues to their future husbands.

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it's not a maybe, it is a fact and the results are the same. Not revealing things early, no matter what it is, violates trust, no matter what sex you are. I don't see as how this is pertinent to crossdressing though. Are you saying since women keep secrets it is OK for the men? Two wrongs...

I think you are rationalizing why you kept it secret. You want someone to tell you :Hey, it's OK she did it too." It isn't OK. It is selfish and mean and shows a lack of trust in your spouse

Well this is certainly a very macho kind of argument now isn't? Those women! How dare they be as deceitful as us men?

Seriously, Lorileah hits it right on the head: anything hidden from your partner, whether you are the man or the woman or whether you are a cross-dresser or not, will cause damage to the relationship. No one has ever said that cross-dressers are the only ones who hide things when they get married. We are all pretty much cross-dressers around here and the name of the site is Crossdressers.com so it stands to reason that, around here, you see more cases of cross-dressers who have been hiding their cross-dressing instead of hearing about wives who have unpaid student loans or who had an abortion or who eat ice cream at midnight.

Also, just because one person kept a secret from you, that does not give you a free pass to do the same to them.

A relationship is a mutually-agreed-to partnership with the relationship being the most important consideration. It is not a competition of who is "better." If all you're doing is keeping score, you aren't in a relationship, you're just being abusive.

I made the mistake of not disclosing it in my first marriage and it became a mess. My second date with my now wife, I told her that I have been dressing since I was 11 in pantyhose and dresses only but had a burning desire to prefect it and discover more. She said, well, it's part of you and I love you, so let's go to Walmart and get you some make up. We did and WOW. I then bought my first pair of 4" pumps, more dresses, and a wig from Fredericks online and when I put it all on together...well, I'm preaching to the choir here, it was AWESOME! That was over 10 yrs ago. Niki has gone through the young immature stage to now a mature grown up woman thanks to my wife's love and support. The thing about me is that I do not change who I am.. I don;t change my voice, attitude, etc. My fem mannerisms and submissive attitude come naturally and are just amplified when I'm totally dressed. The moral to the story, don't hide it from your life partner. You wouldn't want them hiding anything from you. :)

Steffi - I think it's very honest and open of you to try to say what you have said here and with examples from your own relationship... It has to be hard to talk about that however anonymous we may be here... :hugs:

I get what you're trying to communicate here... that in some relationships that are less than perfect (my guess the majority are of that nature) trust, and the withholding of intimate details (whether they who were withholding thought it was irrelevant or not) can be from both parties. And I think you're right about this however unpalatable that may appear to some.

Of course, our big issue is that CDers are withholding something that is so dreadfully stigmatised by 'normal' society, that in revealing this part of us we risk the loss of relationships with relatives and friends, work colleagues and possibly a career impact... and therein lies the significant difference between a benign disclosure, and a socially catastrophic one... So it's difficult to find these disclosures being held equally...

I also understand the point you have tried to make about your wife's illness (and you both have my sympathy for that) - I can imagine some of the sacrifices that you have had to make during those 34 years and I can respect your commitment, honour and love for someone in being with them for that length of time and through that awfully unpredictable illness. I can see that you would have to have shown a lot of selflessness over that period, rather than the opposite. You wouldn't have anticipated the constraints on your life and lifestyle that a major illness would cause when you were first married - nor does anyone really plan for the worst... and until you've had to face that type of impact in life you really can't appreciate what it's like to live with loss in that way... :bighug:

I can see that there is a counterpoint - but it will seem morally incorrect to a lot of folk however much their own relationships have also encompassed the same type of misdirections and partial truths, possibly some yet undisclosed... Everyone's situation is different, and everyone has a right to face those situations and choices in the way that they feel comfortable with...

A husband is unlikely to want to divorce his wife because she admits after marriage it's impossible for her to achieve an orgasm 'normally' (and not unlike about a third of all females, I believe) - but the same is not true of the wife's perspective of a husband in a dress, wig and makeup, is it?

And before the holier-than-thou crowd gets into full voice, remember this is a forum that CDers come to for support, and the vast majority of them do that in complete anonymity and secrecy... and there's a powerful reason for that, however shrouded in lies it may seem to some.

Katey x

Cd's should be honest up front to avoid any problems down the road and if your wife had sex issues she should have brought that up as well.

Hi Steffi . . . thought provoking post. However before I respond with my thoughts I will say I understand where you are coming from as there is a sentiment creeping in from time to time that we "TG/CD" are not worthy husbands, fathers, brothers, men because we have something we cannot control anymore than I can control the urge to breath. Some will say "it is just dressing up" and yet the recidivism of dressing after stopping for any CDer is extremely high. So I do get it and I understand your commitment to your wife with her MS but IMHO it was probably not the best comparative example to use but I do not think you meant it the way some have taken it . . . enough said on that.

Full disclosure an interesting topic. I am one who did not disclose to my wife until 24 years into our marriage. Now some here will wag their fingers, the "liar, liar pants on fire" crowd and tell me I am so fortunate my wife did not kick me to the curb when I told her. Now that is quite the assumption for anyone to make without knowing the whole story. Yet assumptions get made by so many here without knowing the details. To be honest I did not know . . . oh I had an inkling many years ago but I got busy with my life, my job and according to my therapist, supressed it as it did not sync with my manly man occupation. It crept in as more a sexual release and I am not talking about full dressing but the use of items for . . . well no need for details as I am sure you can guess. When it did come crashing down on my head 32 years later I had nowhere emotionally to go and so I let her know. So yes no full disclosure prior to marriage but what would I have disclosed . . . "Sweetie, from time to time, not sure why but, I like to put on a pair of panties and sexually pleasure myself" What is to be gained from that disclosure. What I did in the privacy of the bathroom was my business, I was still there for my wife in all ways a husband should be.

Don't get me wrong if you have a huge emotional attachment to CDing and you cannot get along without dressing to the point where you need to express yourself or become an emotional wreck then yes . . . you should tell sooner than later if for anything but yours and your SO's emotional well being. Hiding something which is so important can creep into your relationship in other negative ways (moody, depressed, anger, hostile) if you are there then talking is probably a good idea. However, be kind with your "finger wagging" folks, as some here have various reasons why they cannot or do not want to tell or, they can manage both sides and still be a great husband, dad, man. That is their private business and "nobody" has the right to judge anyone here . . . last time I looked this was a support forum not a judgemental forum. Yes, by all means give them options ("have you thought about disclosing to your wife" "you sound emotionally distraught over having to hide, perhaps talking to your SO is a good way forward" "Have you looked at it from your wife's perspective?") but please save the "holier than thou" (bad boy, selfish boy, unworthy of trust boy) rhetoric as it adds nothing and only serves to put someone in an even more emotionally distraught position. For those who say "Well if you post here, you need to have a thick skin and I am a hard nose tell it like it is gal" . . . here is a bit of advice . . . you can still tell it like it is in a manner that resonates polite, supporting, nurturing (all good human traits and dare I say ones many who do post rude comments claim as their own). There is no need to be smarmy, rude and downright nasty ... let he/she who has not sinned cast the first stone

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Originally Posted by Katey888

...And before the holier-than-thou crowd gets into full voice, remember this is a forum that CDers come to for support, and the vast majority of them do that in complete anonymity and secrecy... and there's a powerful reason for that, however shrouded in lies it may seem to some.

Katey x

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Could not have said it any better Katey.

Hugs

Isha

I told my wife the first year we were dating, We married 2 years later. In the early days and a year into our marriage she made a real effort. Then we invited a couple over to our apartment with the husbands dressed. He was very tall and could easily be read. When they rang the bell and my wife opened the door she practically yanked him out of his heels as she pulled him into the apartment to get him out of the hallway. She was on pins and needles all evening and could not wait for the evening to end as we played Scrabble. Up to that time she had only seen me dressed and I'm short and could be convincing although I could not pass in those days. She never got over that experience and has never participated since then and that was 1972. So the point is that I did tell her before we married, she really did try to be a part of my CD life before and after we married and finally realized she could not do it. No one could predict that. She loved me enough to try and loves me enough to stay with me for the next 42 years. The pay off is great children and grandchildren and we are looking forward to a nice retirement soon. Do I wish Stephanie could be a part of her life. Of course but just like her, I have to sacrifice some things to make the marriage work. The argument that she knew about my CDing before we married also works for her saying she would try to deal with it as best as she can. This is her best and I love her for the effort.

Why are only CDs blamed for not disclosing before marriage?

Because that is usually the biggest/most important secret in the relationship. She usually can't top it. Usually.

Isha, Yo hit a home run! Well said. We are all in different situations, with differing personalities and quirks, dealing with different types, with quirks. I struggle with extremely judgmental, cruel older brothers, who are not "live and let live", and mu father, too. I have not been in a romantic relationship, since 1987. I have told a number of women friends my secret, and only one seemed tolerant, but the rest totally judged me negatively. I still believe it is best to disclose, if i think the GG is a possible mate. Live and let live , as long as something is not violent, or harmful to others.

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Originally Posted by Katey888

...And before the holier-than-thou crowd gets into full voice, remember this is a forum that CDers come to for support, and the vast majority of them do that in complete anonymity and secrecy... and there's a powerful reason for that, however shrouded in lies it may seem to some.

Katey x

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Katey, the OP has nothing to do with not being open about cross dressing. It is entirely about this posters unobjective view that cross dressing equates to medical problems.

Candice, my sister in law had MS for the last 10 years of her life, and eventually died of cancer. She was one of the most wonderful people I have ever met, and she was trying to take care of all her friends even to the day she passed away. (She left parting gifts for her best female friends...) And my brother is a wonderful person and he willingly and cheerfully changed his life for the past 10 years to take care of her and spend as much time with her as possible. But it is impossible to deny that her illness put stress on their marriage. If he had known in advance what the last 10 years were going to be, would he have married her anyway? I think so, but would it have factored into his decision? I think so.

I don't think Steffi was saying that coming down with MS is in the same category as voluntarily hiding a secret that has the potential to destroy a relationship, as if her wife had been hiding MS from her. (I hope that's not what she is saying).

But learning that your spouse has MS IS the sudden reveal of a devastating secret (the universe's secret, not the wife's secret) that always has a major impact on the life of both spouses. Some spouses in that situation react heroically (my brother and sister in law are perfect examples). Others might react in a more devastating manner - a spouse leaving the marriage because that spouse couldn't deal with the impact on his/her life and expected future.

I don't think including MS as an example matches the title of the thread "Why are only CDs blamed for not disclosing before marriage? " unless Steffi's wife hid her MS from Steffi. I think it belongs in a more general discussion of the right and wrong ways to respond to life-changing revelations.

Deedee

There is that first issue, fear, then... umm, fear, then the idea that we are wierd and there is something wrong with us, and if we can get past that (within ourselves), then there is the idea or notion that we will surely stop once we are in a committed loving relationship. Once that doesn't work out as planned there is ummm... fear again. Then we disclose. Maybe weeks, months, or many many years later. Yet...
Even if CDing is a fundamental part of us and we cannot possibly stop without serious (life threatening) side effects, it still is not a big enough thing to erase however many years of memories and children we have had during the "normal" course of our relationships. My SO and I have been through devistating moments that Bergman himself couldn't have dreamed up, and highs that will make us both cry in joy for the rest of our lives when we think of them... We also worship the ground our children walk on... Surely an SO would consider all of those things before truly believing they would have never gotten into a relationship in the first place knowing we CDed? Some traits that I have are directly related to my being genderfluid. (If not all are interwoven actually). My SO married me because of my traits. If I were never anything other then cisgendered I would not be the same person I am or ever was. The very notion of losing all of what I have shared and have with my SO because she may have thought I was not worthy some near 20 years ago? Call it what you will, but that is WAY more then I could even imagine gambling over. (And yet I still know in my heart that I was not in an understanding enough place about who or what I was at the time to disclose about my CDing anyhow!!)

We aren't the only ones blamed for not disclosing stuff before a marriage. The problem is that CDing is something most women wouldn't choose to deal with in a partner. It's a little unfair to blame us for not wanting to disclose this, as society does not approve, and it makes finding a partner really hard, and it can be dangerous, too. (Betty Crow, from My Husband Betty was blackmailed by a former GF to whom she revealed her CDing secret.)

You make yourself really vulnerable to someone you don't fully trust yet. And by the time you do trust them, many of us are so invested in the relationship that we feel we can't risk losing it by revealing the truth. Because a lot of women will indeed reject you for being a CD. Most women hate this. And of course this assumes that you even understand this thing inside you well enough to even talk about it. It's not like we get any education on gender issues. It's very hard to tell a secret that, in your mind, amounts to "Hi! Date me! I'm a complete freak of nature!"

And yet, your best bet for actually having an accepting partner is to tell them up front. It's a difficult situation, made worse by a society that hates, fears, ridicules, and misunderstands you. If you disclose upfront, you risk embarrassment, and you'll have a much tougher search for a partner unless you are quite lucky. If you don't disclose it, your odds of having an unaccepting partner greatly increase - so it's easy to reach the conclusion that "it's all your fault."

The CDs on this forum who wag their fingers at you tend to be the lotto winners - the ones who were lucky enough to find an accepting relationship. The ones who got kicked to the curb like a sack of garbage tend to disappear after a while, as it's hard to face the judgment of others who tell you "well, your marriage must've sucked, and the CDing was just the last straw."

The truth is, even when a woman chooses to remain in the marriage with a CD, many of them find this to be a real trial. There are some really happy relationships between genetic women and CDs. There are. There are a whole bunch more that are, at best, a real struggle for both parties.

I think you have a point, Steffi.

Both parties in any romantic relationship hide lots of unpleasant things about themselves early in the relationship, and at least in my experience ... yeah you really don't get to know the person you're married to in full until a few years after, and even then.

I didn't find out about my wife's crippling mountain of debt until bill collectors started hassling the living hell out of me about a year and a half after we were married. I didn't find out my wife was bi-sexual (or at least bi-curious and willing to experiment) until about 4 years in, when I came home from work one night and there was sexy shenanigans with her best friend going on in my living room (actually in that case I'm not complaining ... that was a fun night LOL -- but it was definitely a shock). It wasn't until much later, after we'd had our children that her bi-polar tendencies came to light.

And in some of those cases it wasn't even about "hiding" things from one another, that's just how things unfolded. That's what you sign on for when you get married, especially if you get married young. People are not static objects. The nature of being human is to expand and change. That' why they talk about the "for better or for worse" ...

our thing is a little different though.
About the most harmless thing imaginable, wearing the "wrong" clothes in private, is widely considered to be an abomination in our society. it's insane, but them's the breaks at this point in history I guess.

I am in support of full disclosure before marriage. Yet even that may not be a solution as cross dressing, as well as other aspects of one's sexuality evolve. In my early twenties I did not feel that I was a cross dresser. I thought that I just had a fetish for female lingerie and that being able to buy my SO the prettiest lingerie would satisfy my urges. I was wrong about that as my need to dress, use makeup and look as feminine as possible just became stronger and stronger. So a confession at 22 would not be the same as a "confession" at 32.

I have known many men who entered marriage not understanding that they were homosexual. They may have had feelings and even some brief homosexual encounters but put that down to youthful indiscretion and sexual exploration and thought that marriage and a heterosexual life was what they desired. Five or ten years later they realised that the real truth about their sexuality and invariably the marriage failed. Many women have traveled the same emotional path.

As our cross dressing has s strong sexual drive it is not necessarily a constant and will evolve as our hormonal makeup changes. Given my experience I believe that a simple "confession" would be insufficient. It needs to be followed by education and exploration so that the entire issue can be understood and some understanding of how cross dressing can evolve and "morph". Sadly, few are brave enough to face that and I have always thought that a confession needs to be coupled with some excellent and professional counseling. How many potential partners are confident enough to follow this and perhaps, after all the counseling decide that despite strong affection for the prospective partner, that this is not a relationship that they should enter into?

There are lots of men that would decide not to marry once they found out their partner had MS. And there are men that ended marriages after their wife acquired MS. Then there are those that stay with their wife through sickness and health.

I think everyone has at least one secret that they won't tell anyone, ever. It's important to find out every aspect of a future husband or wife before tying the knot. In my case I had no idea that my wife was a crafty liar before getting hitched.

It is my jaundiced opinion that many (most?) couples would never get married if they really "knew" the person that they were getting ready to marry.

Somehow revealing yourself as a crafty liar doesn't seem like something anyone would do :)

My feelings (and you can be as selfish or altruistic as you like). 1) marriage is built on love and trust. If either one is missing, it is over. 2) You (and your potential spouse) have an obligation to reveal ANYTHING that may effect the marriage. This does not include past sexual adventures (as long as you aren't harboring a disease that can shorten you new love's life), exes, drinking binges in college. It does include anything your spouse may not wish to deal with on a forever basis. Here is the selfish part. Being selfish before you get deeply involved is just protection. We all have our lines in the sand. Some will not accept any sexual indiscretion, any borderline activity, any lifestyle out of the norm. This is OK, it is who you are (just don't try and force your quirks on others, they have the same right to be selfish) The selfish becomes intolerable after you decide to be together forever. Then your quirks and feelings on certain things should not interfere with your spouse. 3) The longer you keep a secret you KNOW OR SUSPECT your spouse may not approve of, you are undermining the cornerstone of the marriage; trust. It takes time to build trust but it takes seconds to destroy it. I believe this is the main issue, it is what you do it is assuming you know better than your spouse how they may react. It is not allowing the other person the chance to make a decision. They are adults, let them decide if they can live with whatever. I always use the example of "equity". You have little equity in a relationship at the beginning. So if for whatever reason you need to walk away, no big loss. Equity grows with time. After 5 years or 10 years , you have a lot invested in the relationship. You have spent age, you have spent adventures, you have spent the ability to find someone who is more attuned. You have a house, children, friends, memories, adventures you shared. Your spouse has a plan for the future where you will grow old and be together until death do you part. You chip away the trust, the foundation crumbles and your equity is gone. Everything you have invested (not just money but emotion) is gone. If you revel early, they are hurt for maybe a few days. If you reveal late, it hurts longer. It took me over a year to work it out. I still loved her but I was hurt she didn't trust me. I still am not 100% over it but I will go one, but I have to start building my own equity again.

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Originally Posted by carhill2mn

It is my jaundiced opinion that many (most?) couples would never get married if they really "knew" the person that they were getting ready to marry.

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Wow. This along with so many other comments here just stuns me. I must be living the Brady Bunch life. My parents too. I know EVERYTHING about my wife and she me (now that I came out). My withholding my CD nature was the ONE thing I didn't tell her or more specifically, let her see. We have seen each others best and worst. Prior to marriage and after.

I'm saddened that you a see a world like this. Maybe we just see too many disposable relationships on TV and tabloids. For some, marriage is thing you do as opposed to giving your life to another. I guess I am just a cup half-full kind of guy.

PaulaQ, that is very well said!

Deedee

I think the disclosure thing is an injustice to most CDrs. How many of us had a clear understanding of ourselves....beyond what we are characterized as being? As young adults we are motivated by all sorts of factors, just as any other human. Yes, most of us wanted sex, companionship and families...normal lives. Were we supposed to say, "I'm sorry but there is something about myself I don't understand and maybe it would be better if you jumped to some conclusion, and tell all your girlfriends while your at it."

About half of all marriages end in divorce. Perhaps as many as 1% involve CDing as a cause. Seems there may be other adverse factors that can affect relationships which are either undisclosed or unrecognized at the outset. Shame on CDrs for not being more forthcoming than the rest of humanity!

No need to attack the OP, some folks here need to chill sometimes. I think Steffi has brought up a valid question. Except I think her statement is way too absolute that this lack of premarital disclosure is the “only” one that results in a ‘blame the perp’ marital dysfunctional status.

However it does seem from posts on this forum that many wives have a really difficult time accepting a husband’s CD’ing disclosure and express that as a reason for the disintegration of the marriage. Why it is so difficult to accept by wives compared to most other things remains somewhat a mystery to me despite ongoing discussions regarding this on this site by many.

Often people have to deal with difficult situations that a spouse presents and sometimes these problems were present but not divulged before marriage. Steffi gives some valid examples and then adds an example of a difficult marriage stress that developed well after the marriage began. The point was that these other things are often accepted as part of life and worked on by both parties without a subsequent assignment of blame.

I think when a marriage really deteriorates that there is a human tendency for assignment of blame to thrown around by both parties. The fact remains that CD’ing by the husband (and not CD’ing by the wife which is accepted in lots of places) is an all too easy target for assignment of blame, not to mention public humiliation or even blackmail.

So I think a partial answer to Steffi’s question is just that blaming the CD’ing husband is an easy sell and not likely to be questioned by outside parties.

Stephanie