Two hangups: smile and voice

I'm confident enough to go out in public fully dressed, including a wig and forms, but only if I wear a hat or scarf. Still, it's a big step not all TVs have even taken.

I still get scared at the thought of someone speaking to me though, as I haven't worked on a voice or anything.

I'm also someone who doesn't smile much anyway, so find it hard to smile all the time when I'm walking around in public. When I observe GGs, many of them don't walk around smiling anyway. Also, lots of GGs walk like guys these days, swinging their arms and legs like gorillas. This second comment is less relevant to me though as I try to walk like a woman.

Any tips on smiling and avoiding talking?

Sure - it should be easy to smile when you are out en femme because you feel awesome!

When you walk into a place, walk in like you own it. That helps you pass a surprising amount. Confidence helps, and if you don't have it, fake it til you make it.

As far as speech goes, honestly, you are just better off relaxing, and speaking in your normal voice. Nobody cares who you are under the clothes for the most part. You CAN feminize your voice - no surgery or hormones needed. But unless you are naturally talented, expect a long slow slog. I'm currently doing Kathe Perez' 30 day crash course. Once I finish it I'll post a review. (It'll be a couple of months - I'm doing it slower than 30 days for reasons I'll mention later.)

I can tell you that having quality instructional materials and a program helps. There are a lot of elements to a feminine voice, and I found various YouTube videos to be not that helpful. But this is highly individual - I can tell you that feminizing my voice has not comennaturally to me.

My advice is let that confidence lift those cheeks. :) Do not force it, put just a gentle smile on your face and it will do wonders for your confidence and you will be surprised by how many people smile back at you. As for your voice just take it slow and realize it will take time. I have been working on mine for 8 months now and I am finally getting to a point where I can hold my voice in a high pitch without sounding like a cartoon or in falsetto. Practice a little everyday and you will begin to notice little by little it changing. Remember you have to train the muscles in your vocal chords and throat so it will take time. One thing that helped me was listening to music. Find a song that you like and start singing. Most of time you can duplicate a females pitch. From there just start saying one word in that pitch and try to keep your voice in your head. In other words you will feel the vibrations in your head rather than your chest.

Just practice and know that it takes time. :)

Thank you both!

I guess my main worry with the voice is if someone talks to ME, as I'm not going to start a conversation for a loooooong time. So what if someone asks me for the time, directions or speaks to me if I'm using the women's toilet?

To be fair, though, a lot of women I hear in the street sound kind of like men anyway, because of their strong accent.

Why not just remind yourself why you're doing this? Presumably because you should enjoy it and that should be enough to put a little smirk on at least? :)

With voice, I think just soften it a little - don't be loud but get close to a whisper, lift the pitch (but don't squeak! ;)) and try to think of a woman's voice you really like... If someone does ask you anything they're unlikely to be fooled completely so it's best not to overdo it - and probably best to shrug and apologise if someone speaks to you unexpectedly. For some reason whenever I go out in a foreign city (not en femme) locals would stop and ask for directions, generally in a language I could barely understand... perhaps I looked like I knew where I was, but I didn't... :)

Don't worry about it too much, it might impact your smiling...

Katey x

I dunno, I think Spider-Man has hangups. I have challenges. ;):)

so smile, im guilty with not so much, avoid it as a consequence of dental dilemmas either boy or girl me, the voice i just got from this recent thread,
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...-hey-ti-worked!
i tried it and found it worked well enough, im middle linebacker size and didnt want to sound like one trying to sound girly and thought this technique was fine....

I think the difference in women and smiling is that they tend to show their teeth when they smile where men tend to grin. The voice thing has been covered.

My teeth aren't very nice. They're white enough and I have a complete set of teeth, but they've not very straight and the canine teeth look quite pointed, so that's partly why I don't smile too much.

The other day someone suggested talking a lot the other day because women talk a lot more than men. I don't agree with this for a couple of reasons. 1) It's very rare for a CD to have a convincing female voice. 2) not all women are chatterboxes. The more one talks while en femme the more likely they will be clocked in most cases. Also, I've seen too many CDs on youtube that overdo mannerisms that comes off fake. It's not like acting ability automatically suddenly appears just because one wants to step out en femme. Actors take classes and take years to develop talent.

Maybe it would be better to work on losing masculine attributes rather than trying to adapt feminine one's? Don't talk unless it's necessary, and don't put on a female voice. Raise your pitch just a little and talk normally IMHO. Sit with knees together, but don't worry about talking with your hands like some women do.

Hi,

Ressie.

You,v not met me so dont know what im like and my friends ,

Yes i agree many women (natal ) are not chatterbox,s or do a lot of talking i know why though does not matter for this , , those of us who do talk a lot more than men and will, why because its how we interact with other women and we talk about family what we are doing and plans and so much more ,

with in our womens groups its all about womens issues life planing what we are doing or going those who work about work or what we are planing for our groups and outings , you see because we are the ones who run our groups and because we are closer to each other in what we do its normal for us ,

Hang ups and voice ,

Voice and smiling , as a kid i was known as the allways smiling kid ,

voice i never bothered about trying to change my voice and there was no need , though im a singer and have been in choir,s i knew my range between barritone and soprano and my voice changed any way ( to more in line of a female ) story behind that , i am a female any way ,,

As im in the public and as a PR person i have no issues talking with 1000,s of people , and strangers as well, friends who know me and been at my public speaking meetings have never said any thing ,

Though i know if you dont have that confidence to do what i do then yes i know its very hard plus your own self worth and self esteem and you need to know your strengths and weakness,s i do , so i work with what i have or dont so i can do what i have for some years now . I wont say its easy as i could not have done say 30 years ago what i do now .

...noeleena...

Totally agree about the voice thing. No point in trying to change it. If someone talks, or if you are talking, I think it definitely "drops the guard" of the person that you are talking with if they hear that there is a "normal" guy under the make-up and skirt.

Your voice only softer does the trick if someone engages you.

I noticed that even in male mode I instinctively talk higher and softer when I'm talking to young children or animals.
So I just use my "children and animals" voice in femme mode. It has got me through some quite complicated conversations in shoe shops and restaurants without the sky falling in, and it's certainly much better than the rolling thunder of my male voice!

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Originally Posted by silkycdresser

When I observe GGs, many of them don't walk around smiling anyway.

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This is very true. We are not plastic dolls with a permanent smile plastered across our faces. lol Just smile when you're happy. And if talking to people makes you happy as it does me, then you will smile in an encouraging way if you are having a pleasant conversation with someone, or if you say please or thank you.

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Originally Posted by silkycdresser

Also, lots of GGs walk like guys these days, swinging their arms and legs like gorillas.

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Thanks.

But the truth is, both women and men tend to walk somewhere in the middle. Have a look at the BioMotions Lab demo. Click on the "Lines" radio button at the bottom to see the body better. Very few women walk like the top slider position all the way to the right, and very few men walk like the position all the way to the left. Most of us are ever so slightly off center, so slight that someone would have to analyze your movements closely to tell if you were walking like a man or a woman. If you do naturally walk like the position on the left, then I'd advise you to move closer to the middle.

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Originally Posted by silkycdresser

Any tips on smiling and avoiding talking?

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You don't have to avoid talking. I hate to break this to you, but the people you will interact with closely will know that you are not a genetic female. If you are unsure of this, post a thread asking the CDers who do go out regularly in the mainstream.

My SO and I have been going out in public for years and my SO is OK with knowing this now, although it was difficult for her to realize this at first. I think part of it might have been old, subconscious thought remnants that "guys" shouldn't be doing this, and so there might have been a little projection going on, thinking that strangers would have strong feelings against the CDing. Most people are polite, however, and they don't care especially the SAs or other service personnel you will be interacting with. They're happy to have your business and they won't give any signs that they know you are a genetic male. Some people will actually think that what you are doing is cool, so you can go out there and enjoy.

I agree with PaulaQ; it's all about confidence. As I observe people, there are many females who do not act nor look like ladies. I have expanded my comfort level and shopped while dressed at Target, Payless, food stores such as Kroger and eaten at fast food places. I think at times some of the staff think I might be a male, but I have never had a negative experince.
Love, Sabrina

pretty much echoing the comments above. I wouldn't feel obliged to smile. Let it come naturally. Except one time...when you make eye contact with anyone, just a little enigmatic Mona Lisa smile acknowledging the eye contact can be disarming. As for gait, I don't see anything wrong with practicing a more feminine style, so long as it doesn't become an absurd caricature of a woman.

Voice is a challenge, but I agree with Paula, that you needn't affect a female voice in most circumstances. Just speak softly in your normal tone. But again, there's nothing wrong with practice. I'm doing Kathe Perez "EVA" voice lessons on my iPad. I've found them helpful in both pitch and tone management, but I still need to work on consistency.

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You don't have to avoid talking. I hate to break this to you, but the people you will interact with closely will know that you are not a genetic female.

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ReineD speaks the truth. If talking a little more feminine feels natural to you than that's fine. But not many of us are fooling those that we interact with.

Thanks Ressie. My SO has a strong male voice. But, she does soften it a little when we're out so there isn't such a stark contrast between her appearance and her voice. It works for ordering food, etc.

There are some places that we go to more than others and we've gotten to know the people who work there over time. Some have been very friendly and have stopped by our table to chat countless times. Once my SO feels completely at ease with someone, her voice returns to normal and that's OK. She cannot carry on the softening for extended conversations.

No one has ever asked outright why my SO presents as a woman, and I always take it that they assume she is TS and living full time.

I will admit I found Jane Anders book "The Lazy Crossdresser" very helpful with regard to this type of issue i.e. the dreaded "passing" and will people know. Essentially as per Reine and others, the deal is you just have to be yourself. If you are putting on a whole heap of affectations in order to "pass" as a woman then how is that any different to putting on a whole heap of affectations to keep up the illusion of "passing" as a man?

Most reasonably balanced people in western society are clued in enough to gender non conformity that they are unlikely to judge purely on your gender. So just try things out, see what works for you. Look, I certainly don't bellow in my booming tenor voice but equally I don't whisper in some contralto. I tend to use my normal tenor but pull back on the undertones. That tends to mean I speak a little softer and probably a bit more deliberately.

WRT to smiling. No, not all GG's smile all the time. And a lot of GM's smile a lot. I'll give you the tip though, I'd much rather talk to someone who has a smile on their face than someone with a dour frown!

No tips, just smile and speak softly, works for me.

Silky,
The old saying laugh and the World laughs with you is very true ! With my photography business especially weddings I always worked with a smile, you can persuade people to go along with something far easier ! So even if your voice doesn't quiet fit you'll probably get away with it but don't forget we are never going to pass 100% so try not to get too hung up on it !

When I found out I had a bass singing voice I thought I had been condemned to live forever as a man with no chance of reprieve. There very thought was enough to make me want to reach for the bottle.

However, when I realized that I HAD to transition, I found a cell phone app and a few other things to help build my confidence. Once I started going nearly full-time as Debbie, I realized that my speaking voice had ALWAYS been high for a man. You should have someone else, preferably a woman, help you with your speech. Normally, you can easily pass if you can keep your base pitch around A below middle C on the piano. Women are also more musical, more enthusiastic, more emotional - because they have not been trained to hide their emotions as men have. Once you relax, you will start to naturally express a wider range of emotions.

Women are also more descriptive and tend to choose words that may seem uncomfortable at first. For example:

A man would say "Nice Scarf, looks good"
A woman would say "That's a lovely scarf, the color really compliments your hair (or eyes or blouse).

On the other hand, avoid words like FABulous.

Debbie,

It's interesting that you sang bass and yet you have always had a high speaking voice as a man. In my case I am a basso profundo who routinely sings down to a C below the bass staff and my speaking voice is routinely around F just touching the bass staff on the bottom. And sometimes my speaking voice can be as deep as C below the bass staff.

And yet I strive to speak in the female idiom where I have wide variations of the pitch of my voice and I speak descriptively. And I am working on my smile. I notice I am able to speak much more freely with genetic women than the usual male.

I do have other feminine clues such as my long hair, breasts, and wide hips. I may not pass 100 percent as a genetic woman with my deep speaking voice but I do get along very well with people with my presentation.