Attacking and Challenging Members - Fair Game or Not?

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Originally Posted by Eryn

Telling a person that their ideas are invalid or wrong because they haven't:

1. Had surgery
2. Suffered as another person has
3. Lived full-time
4. Attempted suicide
5. Been discriminated against in a particular way

or had some other life experience is belittling.

We should be discussing the issues that we face. Attacking another's credibility achieves little except for driving away those who are too fragile to tolerate the drama.

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Good thing, I suppose, that I am not so delicate and fragile to have run away from this site crying and bawling my ass off, never ever to return ever again, huh? Although I am sure many here have had their doubts about me over the past several years. Which is totally fair.

And in this, folk here have both challenged and attacked me for the things I have written in the past. Over and over again. Even you, Eryn, have attacked and challenged me within posts I have submitted on this forum. You have also belittled me, too, on more than one occasion, so there’s kinda this pot/kettle/black undertone thingy swimming around within the currents of your post, but I digress . . . .

Regardless, although I agree there is no place for belittling members here within the forum, the thing is that I needed members to challenge and attack me and the substance of the posts I had submitted.

I absolutely NEEDED it.

I needed it to get through all of the static, fog, and chaos roiling around inside my head. I needed smacked around and beat up some to wake me from my own self-imposed prison. I needed members here to be brutally honest to me, to even be rough with me, to stir me up, upset me, and make me THINK.

Using kid gloves would have accomplished little to nothing for me here. Using kid gloves would have done me a huge disservice.

I would be dead right now had some of y’all not stepped up to the plate and just challenged the absolute :censor: out of me, over and over again.

Anyone that takes transition lightly is in for a world of hurt. Anyone who is not fully prepared for the challenges and hardships of transition (whether such hardships and challenges come to fruition or not) is setting themselves up for failure. Anyone who moves forward down this path unprepared to sacrifice or lose huge parts of the “former” life does so at their own peril.

In a very real way, as I see it and experienced it to be, the TS section is tantamount to internet version of tranny boot camp. You gotta go through a lot of shit, be deconstructed, and broken down before you can move forward and be rebuilt into something stronger, something better, something more knowing, something more aware, into something more real and authentic.

Only a fool would believe that this section is not also inhabited and regularly visited by a fair number of tranny wannabees, folk who attempt to talk the talk but are unwilling to walk the walk, and members who are living just plain outright in fantasy land. To those people, they NEED their bubbles burst. They NEED to be challenged. They NEED to be discredited. Not only for their own good, but for the good of members here who are truly TS, but who are still early on in their transition, or are still trying to figure things out.

Words, ideas, concepts, and stories are powerful. They are not to be used or wielded casually or recklessly. Particularly not here, not in THIS forum. Because these things here truly can be the difference between life and death, between moving forward and committing suicide. This shit is SERIOUS, and it should be treated as such and taken seriously.

To those that repeatedly challenged me, I thank them and all that they did for me. I would not be where I am now without their tough love.

Instead, I would be dead. And lemme tell ya, I very much like where I am at now, and quite grateful for the opportunity to be here ALIVE to experience it all.

As such, although I am against belittling folk, I'm all for attacking and challenging members who choose or need to post here when circumstances warrant.

Just my two cents worth . . . .

I think 'yall put too much effort into careposting and arguing about who is real and why who is real and real real real.

Real.

If someone posts something that appears to be very much on the fantasy side of things, they will be called out on what they say.

I don't think that is belittling someone, it is not an attack on them as much as the subject matter. Then again if you plan on transitioning, you better be able to handle that, because out here in full time land, it's brutal.

Also if advice is being handed out, it's nice to know who it's coming from and that they are"real"

Interesting. Is there really a TG bootcamp in here to be a member? does a pin get slapped on and penetrate ones breasts when they pass? Should there be?

What if I am going through my life, pondering, then come to a conclusion that I am a woman inside, not merely a CDer. I come on here and state this, asking for help and advice on how to deal short term with GD and long term transition... Along the way, while I do not feel any different, but I then decide that I haven't and won't be going through the 5 things mentioned. Am I then cast out of membership, or should I be? I mean, does someone have to transition to be considered TS, or should they be?

I come here occasionally to get a perspective on things. A different view point. Perhaps a validation, or just answers to questions swirling through my head. I can't really say I have felt any rejection or harsh treatment by those who identify as TS.

Interesting too, about your claim about the wannabe's. I don't wannabe any of this, and don't wannabe going any further than I feel the need to. It does tend to complicate life more than life is already ridiculously complicated as is. Maybe someone is dealing with a pink fog, and may think they are TS, and those who know the difference can help point them in the right direction, maybe not being brutal, but simply honest?

I do hope my occasional presence here is not offending anyone. There are a great many of us who are not TS, but still deal with difficult and challenging and confusing gender issues and perhaps dysphoria. I would like to hope that those in this section would be helpful, rather than harsh and brutal.

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Originally Posted by whowhatwhen

I think 'yall put too much effort into careposting and arguing about who is real and why who is real and real real real.Real.

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Really?

So you don't think it matters if someone who is naive and questioning (like I once was, and Annie once was, etc etc) comes here and gets bad information from people who aren't even out?

I was helped immensely by these 'careposters' at a time when I was incredibly confused about who I was. I was also taken in by a longtime poster who 100% misrepresented themselves and befriended a few of us in the process. Eventually the fraud was uncovered but I shudder to think about those who may have made decisions based on this person's advice.

As Annie pointed out so eloquently, transition is a serious business and I don't think it's unreasonable at all that the topic of transition be represented by people that are actually transitioning.

Transition is serious stuff. (Insert expletive of choice). When one starts to shed their birth gender. Things get real very fast. Marriages blow up. Familial and friendship relationships dissolve. You can lose your employment. Management can make employment difficult. Finding employment can be challenging if not impossible.

The last thing a person contemplating transition needs is to hear " you go girl ". They need to hear how others that have faced these obstacles navigated around them.
They could be in serious trouble if they get information from those espousing fairy tale transitions. The reality is the majority of us need surgical intervention to have a chance of living as our target gender. It's freaking expensive. It's not uncommon to spend 25 grand alone in facial hair removal. Add another 10 grand for therapy and hormones. 20-40 for FFS. 25 for SRS. Huge hefty price tag. How will someone pay for that. Can you afford to transition.

They need to hear from those that have been and are still going there. I mean after all this is the TS forum. The world will not sing Kumbaya and give blanket acceptance. You will need ridiculed. You will experience hostility. Hostility that can and has lead to severe injury and in some cases death.

They need to understand that their expectation of what they perceive may not materialize. Then what?? What if spending huge amounts of cash. You still are not happy. You are not passing. Will you have the internal fortitude to soldier on?

That's what the blunt honest talk those that visit this forum get. If you can't stand the heat on an internet forum. No way will you be able to handle life as a transitioner. See my definition in a previous post.

I don't agree with everyone and sometimes there are things said that I don't like.
However I go away have a think about it and I can be amazed at times how something makes me think differently, then I realise i've been looking at it from completely the wrong way.

Sometimes those hard unpalatable truths are the ones that end up having the biggest impact.

Also, some things just don't ring true until you are on the other side. There's no doubt about it I have certainly changed my tune since transitioning, there's nothing wrong with being challenged and when your talking BS, you need to be called out.

Transition involves a lot of growth, there's no room for uncompromising opinions.

I've learnt so much from this part of the forum and I don't mind admitting it.

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Originally Posted by gendermutt

I do hope my occasional presence here is not offending anyone.

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You know, these things always come down to statements and accusations such as this one. I mean, it's almost not even worth discussing or putting out there crap like my OP because these things always degenerate or devolve into an argument about who is being offended by something or who is being offensive to who or whatever.

Take my words fwiw they are worth. Perhaps they are worth nothing at all. Perhaps the words of those who have preceded me are worth nothing at all. Perhaps everybody here is full of shit. Perhaps we should just clean the whole thing up, sterilize everything, and shower all who come through the door with hugs and kisses and watercress sandwiches with tea and cookies and stuff.

I did not write that it was necessary for folk here to be treated "harsh and brutal," Gendermutt. So I would appreciate you not twisting the meaning of my post like that.

And I said nothing to invalidate YOUR existence, whatever your existence may or may not be composed of.

So if I offended you, and it looks like I did based upon the substance of your reply, that's on you, not me . . . .

But if someone can't handle themselves in the relative safety of an internet forum, then they ain't got no chance at all out in the real world, and they need to know this sooner rather than later so they can do whatever is necessary to get a grip and take control of their lives . . . .

IMHO, the single most important issue - throughout life - for cross sexed people, IS reality. Recognizing it. Dealing directly with it. Overcoming the effects of avoiding it. Avoiding our own fantasies and traps. Trying to stay in it and present and engaged when every fiber wants us to hide, run, or deflect. Stopping rationalization. Letting go of control.

If someone thinks they might be TS, the kindest thing you can do is help them confront reality head-on. Now. Right now. It IS the cure. Everything else is in the details.

Anne, you did not offend me in the least, I was wondering if my presence offended those on here who identify as TS. I really am asking that question, along with a few others. I have not experienced the harsh brutal stuff, but maybe because I am not contemplating or going through transition. I would only argue that while there should not be a simple kumbaya hand holding for anyone and everyone no matter what, there are a whole bunch of people on here, who knows maybe even me, who are finding their way like those who have done so in the past and are now ready to take on transition. Being so brutal might just further confuse someone who feels unwelcome so they just keep on drifting around? I would agree though, if I come on here and say I am TS and ready to go, I should be for warned of the difficulities, and be tasked that I am certain and ready for it. I just don't know if it needs to be done brutally.

It doesn't offend me, nothing wrong with asking questions and contemplating things.
What can be offensive is people still in hiding telling fulltimers how it is.

What can be irritating is those who want to bend known definitions to suit themselves.

Yes tough direct talk here is needed. Yes I have been very lucky in most respects concerning my transition so far. However, as documented there have been huge personal losses. I needed to hear people saying it wasn't real until I came out at work. That challenged me and I needed it. Yes I got defensive and yes I had good reasons for timing. But I was scared. I needed a push to get out of the nest. It is not a fairy tale to transition. This place needs to be able to transmit the truth. Of course we could all work on loving truth telling.
Suzanne

Becky, I would sort of equate the CDers and such types telling the fulltimers how it is or bending definitions to many religious or other non accepting from society about how TG is a choice and wrong and evil yadda yadda.

We have no real way of knowing who is and who isn't full time and living the life of their true gender. We take things at face value, but the wealth of experience here will soon out those who are trying to pull the wool. What I find irritating is those who will not accept that all we are doing is offering advice. I have yet to see the old ways of this forum returning, TBH, the day that happens I will hang up my moderation hat, I wouldn't want to go through that again.

There has been no attacking, but certainly lots of challening, those who do not like the challenge will have difficulties in RL, if they can't take it here.

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Originally Posted by Badtranny

Really?

So you don't think it matters if someone who is naive and questioning (like I once was, and Annie once was, etc etc) comes here and gets bad information from people who aren't even out?

I was helped immensely by these 'careposters' at a time when I was incredibly confused about who I was. I was also taken in by a longtime poster who 100% misrepresented themselves and befriended a few of us in the process. Eventually the fraud was uncovered but I shudder to think about those who may have made decisions based on this person's advice.

As Annie pointed out so eloquently, transition is a serious business and I don't think it's unreasonable at all that the topic of transition be represented by people that are actually transitioning.

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It's the internet, you're supposed to take things with a grain of salt and seek guidance outside it as well.
If someone truly has to transition they will, arguments or not.

It seems like every 5 minutes here the exact same arguments happen within the same group of people about the same things.
For all anyone knows I'm actually a fat 60 year old man with hairy nipples, which is why I take my own posts and everyone else's with a grain of salt.

Anne, I love your post!!! I think you raised some interesting points here.

I think there needs to be a balance between being nice and being truthful. Many people may either sugar-coat things, or tend to say things with and intent and tone of belittling and trying to hurt others. I have personally experienced both. What bugs me isn't people being objective and telling me the truth. I want that. I want someone who can tell me the realities of transition, of whether or not I need FFS, and the realities of getting FFS. What I don't need is someone who gives me objective feedback and then goes and brags about how hot she is. This has never happened to me on the forum, but it happened to me with someone I know in real life. It really irritated the shit out of me and made me feel like crap. I was seeking out objective advice from someone who knows me in person about my face. I never asked them to brag about how hot they are or how many guys keep hitting on them. It's really irritating. Fwiw, I don't think this person is that good looking, at least not IMHO. I've seen far better looking transwoman than her who have never said anything hurtful to me. But it still gets to me. It's really hurtful and not necessary.

I've also had people on the forum who have attacked me and accused me of being not real. I've been accused of being a troll, and I have received hate mail. I have also received lots of genuine support and sound, objective, advice from this forum. I believe that most people here are sincere and come with the intent of helping out other people. This kind of belittling and attacking goes on both on the forum and in real life trans communities.

Living in fantasy land is indeed dangerous, and transition is very serious stuff. You really can lose a lot, not to mention the hefty price tag on this. However, we have to understand that we're all different human beings, with different needs, and different levels of dysphoria. What works for one person may not work for another.

The reality is that some of us may have easier goes at transition and some of us may have tougher times.

Some of us will lose all our friends, some of us will lose very few friends.

Some of us will lose our jobs and even careers, while some of us may not only keep our jobs but make our best salary since transitioning.

Some of us will pass just by putting on a wig, makeup, and women's clothes. Some of us will needs 2-3 years HRT to pass. Some of us will need HRT plus FFS to pass. Some of us will never pass.

Some of us can easily change our names and gender markers, some of us can't do it so easily.

Some of us have such bad dysphoria we may need the whole package of surgeries and procedures: HRT, facial hair removal, FFS, BA, and SRS. Some of us elect to live as women no HRT, facial hair removal, FFS, BA, or SRS. Some of us fall in the middle of the spectrum. HRT & facial hair removal, but no surgeries. Some of us may need HRT, facial hair removal, and SRS, but no FFS or BA. Some of us may need FFS but not SRS.

We all have different circumstances and personal needs dictating how we go about our transition timelines. Some of us may just go full-time from day one. Some of us may switch back and forth for a year or so before going full-time. Some of us go full-time before starting HRT. Some of us need a year of HRT before going full-time.

Some of us are in professions where our chances of losing our jobs are slim. Others work in professions that are both transphobic and sexist.

As transwomen, we face both sexism and transphobia.

The most we can do is to prepare everyone for the reality of transition. What actually happens is literally YMMV. YMMV varies not only with what happens to us with our personal transition related circumstances, but also with HRT results, and facial hair removal results, and surgery results.

We have to recognize that not everyone is fortunate enough to live in a state where they can change their name & gender easily, or that many of us can't afford it. We have to recognize that there may be TSes who need FFS and SRS but may never have the finances to pay for it.

We have to understand that some of us either are genetically blessed and don't need FFS, or that some of us just don't care whether or not we pass and can live with masculine facial features.

We have to understand that some people may not change their names or genders because they need a job, or have a difficult decision to make on whether or not to keep your birth last name.

Some of us keep our birth last name, while others change it.

Some of us know we're TS and are going to transition. Others are still questioning. Some of us may switch back and forth for many years before finally deciding to go on HRT and transition.

Some of us live in trans unfriendly states like Texas. Some of us live in more trans friendly states like California.

There may be a lucky transwoman who lives in a state like Texas that loses very little. Even in L.A. there are transwomen who lose a lot.

None of this is black and white. The real problem I see here is a lack of empathy. A lack of understanding that everyone of us is on a different path. I see that some of us fail to put ourselves in the other person's shoes, and we assume that all transitions are the same. We forget that everyone's personal circumstances are different, and that we don't all need the same procedures or surgeries. Most of the fighting I've seen here, including some that I have been involved with, are caused by a lack of understanding the other person's perspective.

Fact vs Opinion & Reading Comphrehension

There's a difference between stating what my experience is and what worked for me, and telling others that you have to do this, and being rigid about your beliefs. Your beliefs are only your experience, not necessarily fact of life. Do you remember from reading comprehension in school when they gave you "Fact or Opinion" quizzes, to decide what is a fact or an opinion. Maybe it's time to seriously brush up on our reading comprehension skills. Maybe it's time to learn what the difference between a fact and an opinion is.

Here are some examples.

Electrolysis can cost around $10,000. This is a fact, because it's measurable and can be backed up. You can actually look at your receipts and prove how much you actually paid for electrolysis.

You have to change your name and gender to be considered RLE or full-time. This is an opinion. There is nothing to actually back this up. Even WPATH doesn't state this.

You need to be on HRT for at least one year to be considered for SRS. This is a fact. It's in the WPATH standards. Most SRS surgeons require this.

You'll never pass. Opinion. It's pretty difficult for someone to predict the future and tell them whether or not they'll be passing 3 years later or not.






One more warning. Year 1 of transition isn't necessarily the hardest. Some of us may find year 2 or 3 to be the hardest. You may not lose all your friends or jobs right away. I have heard of TSes whose friends initially accepted them, and within a year, they were all gone. I have heard of TSes who initially kept their jobs, and lost them 10 months later. Sometimes you may get clocked and mis-gendered more after a year on HRT than you did before HRT. This is the biggest warning I can give everyone, is that just because your transition looks like it's going smoothly at first doesn't mean it's going to stay that way. A smooth early transition can turn into an ugly mess later on.


Social Ettiquite

I want to add this about belittling. If someone asks you for advice on whether or not they should get FFS. The best way to tell them is to point out what needs work, but also remind them of what they do have going for them. "Yes, your jawline looks masculine and jaw reconstruction or recontouring would help. However, you have great cheekbones." Don't tell them things like "you're ugly and will never pass" or "you'll never be beautiful". Don't give them constructive criticism, and then brag about how good looking you are and how much male attention you get. This will only make the other person feel like crap. Please refrain from bragging about yourself.

If someone walks up to you and asks you for advice on clothes or passing, it's okay to give constructive criticism if asked for. It's not okay to just blurt out something to someone when they never asked for constructive criticism.

Do: If someone asks you "Is my skirt length too short?" you may reply "Yes, I think you should go with something longer and more age appropriate"

Don't: Just walk up to someone and say "you're dressed too inappropriately for your age"

Do: If someone asks you "Should I wear a dress or pants?" you may reply "Pants is more appropriate for this situation" or "A dress is more appropriate for this situation"

Don't: Just blurt out "Are you going to wear normal clothes to the meeting next time?"

Don't: Say that "dresses are for cross-dressers, pants for for real TSes" - not only is blurting out something to another person wrong, but women, including transwomen, do wear dresses and skirts. And women wear pants too. There is no rule saying what to wear, other than maybe a situational expectation or workplace dresscode.

Do: If someone asks you "Is my beard visible?" you may say "Yes, I can see it"

Don't: Just blurt out to someone "90% of people clock you on your beard and don't say anything"

Do: If someone asks you "Why am I not passing?" you may say "I can see your facial hair in certain lighting" but also remind them of what they do have. Remind them, if it's true "but you have nice small hands and feet"

Don't: If someone who doesn't pass says they were ma'amed, don't say "Oh, people must be really polite these days." This is a subtle put down that reminds them that they obviously don't pass.

None of the above incidents happened to me on the forum. Every single one happened to me in real life from other transwomen in my local trans community. I am mentioning this because this stuff may go on on the forum. I just want to educate people in the etiquette on how to address people in these situations. We have to find a balance between stating objective criticism and hurting someone else's feelings. Many times our approach is what causes others to get hurt. This will serve us all good both on this forum and in real life.




Finally, I just want to say that not every one of us has big hands and feet. Some of us may just be lucky to have smaller and feminine shaped hands and feet.



The key takeaways from this post.

1. Recognize that everyone's experiences and needs are different, and try to understand the other person's perspective.

2. Understand that there is no right or wrong way to transition, nor to be a woman.

3. Brush up on your reading comprehension skills and learn how to distinguish between a fact and an opinion.

4. Exercise good social ettiquite both on this forum and in real life when addressing other people about their TS related issues.



Edit: I'll add one more thing. I think people often feel that when they've been oppressed or dealt with tough circumstances that "tough love" is the only way to go. Many people feel that they've experienced enough harshness from the world that they need to project harshness back onto others. Sometimes people feel that in their mind that "tough" or "belittling" behavior is the only way to survive. Some people just can't see the light. My father has this same exact attitude. He believes that it is somehow his duty to be a dick towards me. Take my word. If anything is going to cause you to be mistreated, aside from masculine features, inappropriate clothing, male voice, or lack of confidence, I can guarantee you that a harsh "tough love" or cruel attitude will only bring cruelty back to you, and that a nice, sweet, softer attitude will bring kindness back to you.

I will say that honestly that from my own experience if dealing with real life TSes, that the ones who are nicer, friendlier, softer personalities with better social ettiquette tend to have a much easier time at transition than do people with tough, harsh, and critical personalities. "Tough love" attracts more "tough love" and tenderheartedness attracts tenderheartedness.

I'm not saying that bad things don't happen to good people. Not at all. But if you just focus on hardship and believe that being tough is the only way to go in life, you're going to have a tough life. A tougher life than those who portray a softer, gentler approach to life. Because your attitudes are reflected back at you. People treat you based on what you put out.

Thank you for the takeaways! If am sure of this correlation : the longer the post, the least likely I will read it.

In real life? I know so many in real life who need to be told things and no one does. Those who do not work on their voices and complain about getting clocked, while telling others that they shouldn't have to do this.....

The ones who complain about a hard transition, while wearing a mini skirt and fishnets at 60 yrs old.

The ones who make their own transition difficult and tell those just beginning that they should just be themselves and don't worry about what others think about you.

If you do try, even nicely, you are told that you are being elitist, or attacking them.

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Originally Posted by Frances

... the longer the post, the least likely I will read it.

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This better?

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Originally Posted by Nigella

We have no real way of knowing who is and who isn't full time and living the life of their true gender. We take things at face value, but the wealth of experience here will soon out those who are trying to pull the wool.
...

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It usually does become obvious who is full of it. But it's not terribly difficult to establish real-life connections, either. There are people here whom I have met, called and Skyped, email, and to whom I am connected on LinkedIn. (I've turned down connections, too.) These connection are real people. I also trust those whom they know to be real. Everyone else? Who knows? When my name change hits, a lot of people are going to know it immediately. And when the professional picture changes, they'll quickly figure out why!

One of the reasons I dont post much....................

Anne,I am happy that you discovered Florida and it's acceptance. Perhaps we can mend fences and do some "beach days" or meet up at SCC.. Ro

I don’t see much attacking or belittling here anymore. Sure, there are a few passionate and heated exchanges now and then because someone is trying to get a point across. There is some tough direct talk when a particular post reeks of pure fantasy or misunderstanding. Mostly, I see some very intelligent people trying to help others. Trying to keep an OP from making a huge mistake. Trying to talk an OP down off of the ceiling when they are upset. Trying to show a better way of handling a situation. Talking about different aspects of all of this and trying to figure it out.

I know when I leave a reply to a post, I don’t ever expect acknowledgement that the reply was even seen. I leave my reply to simply try and get the OP to think of the options available. If it applies, I try to give my own experience. Sometimes, a person needs to be challenged to keep moving. Sometimes they need to be challenged to return to square one and start over. Sometimes the person needs to feel like I have my hands around their ankles and I am pulling their head out of the clouds. None of us are perfect (well, I am pretty damn close;)), we are not going to help every time. That is life. At least we are tying and that is what really counts.

The internet grain of salt idea does not apply to consistent and coherent posters.

That doesn't mean you have to agree but if you can't see the honesty and strength of the consistent posters here you are missing out.

It's a very destructive and serious issue and heated discussions are expected.

You know who else was a consistent and coherent poster?
That's right... Hit- wait, that other girl that always posted here.

e:
Sorry y'all got catfished but it's time to let it go.

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Originally Posted by whowhatwhen

You know who else was a consistent and coherent poster?
That's right... Hit- wait, that other girl that always posted here.

e:
Sorry y'all got catfished but it's time to let it go.

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That's a really negative view, one person acts the Troll it's shame on them for being the low life.
Not shame on those taken in, if you want to go through life with such distrust you will be pretty lonely.

I give people the benefit of the doubt until they prove otherwise. Most people can't keep up the lie for long, if they do they are the loser for being so pathetic not me for being open and honest.