Why Bust Bubble

If this is a forum where people come for support, how does it help to only burst their bubbles?

I have seen this too many times. And it blows my mind every time. Somebody posts a story about getting out of their comfort zone. Maybe getting the nerve up to go to the mall, going into a store of any size, shopping for the clothing or shoes they want so badly. They have a great time... Talk about how the sa or another shopper treated them so well... How they were pleased with their appearance and felt passable... Generally had a great time, and wanted to share it.

The first several replies will be lots of smiles and congratulations and pats on the back for taking a huge step and having fun, as I believe they should be.

Then it starts... "The sa only wants your money" or "You weren't as passable as you think" or any number of other items that may pop into a persons brain.

But I have to ask why.

Why is it so hard to let a person enjoy their victory, whether it be as simple as going for a drive, or a full on pink fog shopping spree at all the best stores?

This isn't to argue the sa's motives. We all know a good sa is looking to make a sale, and yes, our money is as good as anybody's. But we don't know if over the course of two hours of browsing and trying things on and getting opinions that there wasn't some type of connection made which a true friendship could develop from.

And as as far as passable goes, I've seen GGs that look less passable than the girls I see here. They come in all shapes and sizes, and at every point along the infamous 1-10 scale. Any of us can be passable if we are willing to put forth the effort. Granted some are better than others, more blessed in that area, but anything is possible. And there are a lot of other things that contribute, such as voice and mannerisms. But in their mind they are happy with where they are currently at in their journey.

It is also a given, that if somebody asks for an opinion, then honesty is expected. I know I want honest opinions when I ask for them, as I want to learn how to improve my appearance.

But in the scenarios above, is it really necessary to bust their bubble? If you don't have anything good to say, is it really necessary to say anything at all?

I would like to hear others thoughts on this, but please think about it before you respond.

Parish,
I'm inclined to agree with you, most of us have been in that situation, sharing a story and how we dealt with it must give encouragement to those who haven't managed to reach that point.
I haven't a bad word for SAs the more I shop the better the fun gets, it gives many of them a buzz and lightens up their day, I've had comments to that effect.

Is reality "bursting one's bubble"? Reality IS, bubbles are make believe.

When I see the comments about "the sales person just wants your money," I read that as SUPPORT for going out. Basically, telling anyone that you can also do this. Keep in mind, replies to any particular thread are NOT just a message that that poster.

Regarding the passing thing, I am very vocal about this and you are way off base. There is no GG on the planet that is less passable as a GG than a cross dresser. There may be a small handful of cross dressers (and this means the part timers, not those living as women) who can accomplish the incredible task of passing as a genetic woman. They have won the genetic lottery. They are so few as to be discounted. Passing is not about being "pretty" or being any number on your 10 point scale. But by reminding the readers of this forum that "passing" is NOT a requirement to going out, that one can enjoy oneself regardless, it empowers those who are afraid of going out.

Reality IS support.

I rarely see any mean-spirited posts. If anything, I think the board tends to be maybe just a skootch too cheerleadery sometimes. Certainly support and encouragement are important functions of the forum, but it's also useful to help each other be realistic in our perceptions and expectations. Just sayin.

I think it depends on how the OPer makes the post or the attitude of the post in general.
Claiming you passed 100% all the time everywhere. Your voice and mannerisms were perfect or the infamous I look better than most GG's claim.
Thats just asking to get shot down IMO.

Oh Jennifer, you old cynic...young, I meant young. Reality is a cold, hard place, but we all need encouragement. Even a big mouth like me.

I'm drinking in Victoria London as I reply, last night but one of my contract, so apologies if my replies are crap ;-)

Becky

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Originally Posted by bok4fun

Then it starts... "The sa only wants your money" or "You weren't as passable as you think" or any number of other items that may pop into a persons brain.

But I have to ask why.

Why is it so hard to let a person enjoy their victory, whether it be as simple as going for a drive, or a full on pink fog shopping spree at all the best stores?

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I am not interested in bursting anyone's bubble. I want people to enjoy their victories. But I also want people to be aware of reality. The vast majority of times when a person that finally gets out of their house and has a great time thinks it is due to their passability, that is just plain wrong. One being able to get out and about does not depend on their ability to pass. Thus when someone says "I was able to get out and not have a problem because I pass so well," there are others here that read "Oh well, since I do not pass well then I should not go out because then I will not have a good time." It is only that particular mentality that I attempt to dispute.

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Originally Posted by bok4fun

... that there wasn't some type of connection made which a true friendship could develop from.

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I'm not going to try and say that scenario could never happen, but in my 10+ years of getting out, and doing a vast amount of shopping, and talking with sales associates, never once has a true friendship developed. And I talk to them a bunch. I get their opinions, I show them how I look, I talk to them just like any other normal opinion. But in general people who are working, are there to work and not socialize. Personally I want my sales associates to be more concerned with doing a good job than trying to befriend me. With that being said, several SAs know me and remember me when I frequent their stores and they are always pleasant, but we don'g hang out together and gossip on the phone until the wee hours of the night.

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Originally Posted by bok4fun

And as as far as passable goes, I've seen GGs that look less passable than the girls I see here. They come in all shapes and sizes, and at every point along the infamous 1-10 scale. Any of us can be passable if we are willing to put forth the effort. Granted some are better than others, more blessed in that area, but anything is possible. And there are a lot of other things that contribute, such as voice and mannerisms. But in their mind they are happy with where they are currently at in their journey.

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Wow, sorry, I must totally disagree with you on this one. It is funny reading what some think about some of us. That some of us are so passable that we would easily be mistaken for a GG. Ha! Two that i can think of off the bat, are Jennifer and I. Yeah, well when she and I, and our wives sat down for dinner, anyone that cared to look was well aware that there were two GGs and two dudes dressed up as women! I think that both she and I take a great picture, but real life is vastly different than a picture. I like to say that I pass "the glance test." Meaning, if someone were to glance in my direction, I am not so out of place as to capture their attention for anymore than a few fleeting seconds. When someone examines me for longer than a glance, I do not pass. And yet, somehow I am still able to get out and enjoy myself wherever I want to. Pictures are not reality.

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Originally Posted by bok4fun

If this is a forum where people come for support...?

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I have heard this idea of this board acting solely as a support location. Does that then mean that we cheer on anything and everything that anyone ever does? Because if we don't then we are not being supportive, right? How about suggesting to people that maybe there might be a better way to do things? You know, like the person who is thrilled at their victory of finally having some female underwear to wear, but they got it by stealing it. What, none of us should ever support that person by suggestion a way of getting underwear without stealing it? How is that wrong?

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Originally Posted by bok4fun

... but please think about it before you respond.

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I sure hope I thought enough about this all before responding.

Well, I agree that reality is important, and the interpretation of the ( hastilly and sometime challenged) written word sometimes misses the nuances intended. However there is also something to be said for tact, which some posters seem to occasionally lack.

Unfortunately that is not likely to change, and it just part and parcel to a forum like this. You quickly learn who is good at supportive comments around here and who could use a class or two in charm school.

I am in agreement with you. As the saying goes "it's nice to be nice".
Di

parish,

you have hit a nerve with me on this as i share this “bubble” theory.
to be patronizing or condescending with our opinions and simply passing it off as doing that other person a favor seems to garner some resentment for me, just don't say anything, at least thats what mamma always said….if you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything,

and traci makes a fair point as well, sometimes we don't proofread or think about what we have posted and things need to be said….

but by saying these things are we trying to instill that we are superior to the task, that person was asking for atta boys….and we dump on them…

now their are times when the OPs post and ask for opinions and by giving your advise you are attempting to honor those wishes and by giving your honest opinion they can determine what is relevant for them…..

sometimes folks post with an inordinate amount of superiority, its my way, im always right and everyone else is wrong !!!! (sheldon cooper come to mind)

excuse my sarcasm….

“thats to fetishy”
“thats not crossdressy enough”
“thats all you did, drive around”
wait for it “wearing hose with sandals”

I've shared some honesty with folks, and i have some snarky moments, A-lot lately, but i always try to do it with tact and in a respectful way….and even then it doesn't always go well.

one time a member asked for opinions and i PMed them that if they save some money and purchase a real quality wig it will send they're presentation through the roof, feel i lost the opportunity to have a local friend that day, but i didn't do it out loud on the boards for all to see, i did it privately and with good intentions, its a tough call. but opinions were asked for and it was a compliment except for the wig as i know funds are tight with myself and i expressed that as well to the member.

i know we all don't have endless streams of money to achieve those superior looks and presentations, some are on tight budgets and that should be accounted for when making comments to folks, those folks may even look up to you and take it personally.

i get the reality is support ideal, i think it can be accomplished without belittling someone at the same time, maybe let them enjoy the accomplishment, if some one wants to order burger king like they just left the awards show its there choice….if they are closeted and show a sexy side is it OK to assume they were playing for the yankees and call them out for it, even if done with subtlety does not make it right, if someone does not cross-dress the way you do doesn't make it less viable or insignificant or wrong, and yes if you want to wear black hose with silver glitter sandals because you like the way it looks who are we to judge…..its right to them….

as for the comment that some pass, I'm a firm believer that some do, ill just mind my business and not ask if they know beverly simms, i also know not to presume a women is pregnant….and some women look manly….


edit:
support:give assistance to, enable to function or act.

antonyms: discouragement, disapproval, opposition, frustation.....

A couple of quick notes, as I have no intent to get into arguments with some of the above. They will only bring me down to their level and beat me with experience.

A very sad reality is how many people will never post anything on this forum because they have read the other posts and seen how people get torn apart for no good reason at all. So instead they become wallflowers for a while, and most likely will eventually fade away without taking advantage of the good this forum can do. And yes, that good does include opinions, when they are asked for.

Undortunately, too many people feel the need to give opinions which are completely unsolicited, and often given at the wrong time. Let the first time girl enjoy her few minutes. She has worked hard to get there, and is doing the best she can with the palette she has been given to work with.

Btw... My idea of passable, and the idea of many I suspect, is to be able to blend in. I never expect to pass a 15 point inspection, if anybody wants to go that far. But if I can walk through the mall with a minimum number of second glances, then I am very pleased with myself, and consider that a victory.

Additionally, I have no doubt that a group of pictures could be easily assembled, and nobody would be able to determine the genetic sex of every person in it. People can and do pass quite successfully everyday.

Mikell,,
I'd like to comment on your reference to people on tight budgets, it is a valid point and should be considered before making critical comments.
I could spend far more in expensive shops, but choose not to for several reasons. First of all my wife doesn't approve it would be grossly unfair to spend more money than she does on clothes, also if she chose to purge my things it would be slightly easier to accept the loss ! ( I do pray that never happens but who knows ? )

It also gives as much satisfaction to wear well fitting clothes from charity shops as it does from normal retail outlets.

I agree with you bok4fun ,i say if you cant say something nice don't say anything, if they ask for advise then give it politely.

While there's a certain percentage of bitching here -like in any other human activity- most posts are nice & supportive.

Then again sometimes the OP asks the forum for an "honest" opinion. Or "which one do you like the best", which implies you have to like the other less. Or "am I passable", which is the closest equivalent of your wife asking "do I look fat?"

And even then, most answers are pretty polite. So I don't think most posts "burst bubbles", at least not unless the OP gives you the pin and whispers "poke me".

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Originally Posted by bok4fun

Additionally, I have no doubt that a group of pictures could be easily assembled, and nobody would be able to determine the genetic sex of every person in it. People can and do pass quite successfully everyday.

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I have no doubt that from a set of pictures, you really couldn't tell the birth gender of many if not most people that are trying to disguise it.

But you are talking about people who state that IRL they passed so wonderfully and that is the reason they had a good time in public.

I don't know how it is being rude to suggest that maybe they had a good time because most people are actually decent people and even if someone does not pass perfectly they could enjoy their time out and about.

It kind of sounds like many of you are saying that if you do not agree 100% with someone statements, you should say nothing at all.

Seriously?

Doh! Now you burst my bubble Nadine

This "support" topic always digresses into "one should be tactful" or "..say nothing at all" kinds of positions but that is NOT what the OP was about. As Nadine clearly points out, one can be supportive and tactful and still offer the truth, "...how it is being rude to suggest that maybe they had a good time because most people are actually decent people and even if someone does not pass perfectly they could enjoy their time out and about."

This is the real complaint in the original thesis: telling the truth will burst someone's fantasy. Not HOW you tell the truth, just the truth. Well, supporting someone's fantasy helps no one. Why not then support someone's narrow minded sexist views? That is reality for them after all.

Some of you keep saying if they ask for opinion... Yes... Then they are fair game. The opinions can still be polite, and constructive, I hope, but by all means offer them opinions. This post IS NOT about those. This is about the people who simply share a cute little story of something that felt like a milestone to them. They don't ask for opinions in any way, nor do they go overboard on how they could pass any test in the world. They simply talk about doing something and feeling they passed well enough to be comfortable doing it, and were able to enjoy another step of this journey.

And if I am definitely not saying that you should say nothing at all. Only, IN MY OPINION, that the cute story of a milestone probably isn't the best place to do it. Let them have their moment of joy. We have no idea what it took for them to step out and achieve that milestone. And to off handedly say something like "Trust me, you are not passable" is not the type of thing people want or need to hear at that point in time.

We we all have mirrors, and we are all our own worst critics. We know how passable we are or aren't, and don't need to be reminded of it every time somebody else thinks they are offering support by reminding us. But if I'm trying a new look, and post a pic and ask for thoughts, then yes, I do want the honesty, as long as it includes something constructive so that I can learn and improve.

And I dont recall saying "that IRL they passed so wonderfully and that is the reason..." This is starting to sound like Fox News now. Let's pull 10 words out of 100, and then rearrange them so that they mean something completely different. That may work on some, but not me.

Crap... I'm letting them pull me down to their level!

I have to admit in my early days here I stopped posting at one point because I was getting responses I didn't appreciate. I take it personal because I take this site very serious and have come a long way with the help of others and hope I helped others with my life experiences. I remember posting a pic of a pair of shoes I bought at Walmart for $5.00 and most of the responses where that they never seen those shoes at Walmart and that they didn't believe my story. Why would I lie about a pair of shoes, and how would this advantage me in any way. All I wanted to know was how great those shoes looked on me, instead it turned into a thread of what a lier I am. I remember taking those little steps that to me are huge and couldn't wait to share this news with the only place I can share it with my friends here, and again I got questioned if my story was true, all I did was get out of my car and walked a few steps.If I was going to lie I think I would have made it more interesting then that. It was huge for me to take those first steps walking on ashfault and out of the car but my bubble was bursted because the thread became about my credibility of the story. I take it personal because im very honest and my advice or comments are life living experiences and hope everyone here is as honest with there advice. I'm with you on this one, there's nothing wrong with stating the obvious, but maybe to some taking a few steps out of the car isn't a big deal, but if you don't believe me, read my thread and move on to the next one and if you don't believe me keep it to yourself and make a comment somewhere else that maybe you can help someone out. Sorry got a bit mad but I see where your coming from. Thanks for letting me vent.

Jennifer and Nadine,

Yours is the kind of support I value most on this forum. without the reality, I probably wouldn't have had the courage to be out to my wife, and I definitely wouldn't have had the courage to have some amazing shopping experiences.

Thanks,

Daphne

:thinking: I don't let anyone disparage or insult anyone here. There is honesty though and it can be rough.

But then again, this isn't the Unicorns and rainbows forum. If we all just said "you look awesome, don't change" it would be rather boring, no?

I think being realistic is helpful to CDers in the long run. If they know they don't pass they won't be quite so devastated when they find out they don't pass, which they will eventually. I've seen this happen and it's tragic. So IMO, it's better to be realistic in here than to have someone break down in a real life situation when they feel embarrassed because some ignorant person says something disparaging.

I don't understand why anyone WOULD want to live in a bubble. There are lots of things I enjoy fantasizing about, but I know they are fantasies and if I ever forget it, I appreciate caring friends who bring me back to reality.

As to women "not passing", I'm afraid you're confusing the term "passing" with "well-groomed and fashionable". It's true that a lot of women (including myself most days) just pass a comb through our hair, put on jeans, sneakers, and comfy top and go. No makeup. But this doesn't mean that onlookers will believe we are men. If they do, then their gender perceptions don't match the vast majority of other people's.

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Originally Posted by bok4fun

Some of you keep saying if they ask for opinion... Yes... Then they are fair game. The opinions can still be polite, and constructive, I hope, but by all means offer them opinions. This post IS NOT about those. This is about the people who simply share a cute little story of something that felt like a milestone to them. They don't ask for opinions in any way, nor do they go overboard on how they could pass any test in the world. They simply talk about doing something and feeling they passed well enough to be comfortable doing it, and were able to enjoy another step of this journey.

And if I am definitely not saying that you should say nothing at all. Only, IN MY OPINION, that the cute story of a milestone probably isn't the best place to do it. Let them have their moment of joy. We have no idea what it took for them to step out and achieve that milestone. And to off handedly say something like "Trust me, you are not passable" is not the type of thing people want or need to hear at that point in time.

We we all have mirrors, and we are all our own worst critics. We know how passable we are or aren't, and don't need to be reminded of it every time somebody else thinks they are offering support by reminding us. But if I'm trying a new look, and post a pic and ask for thoughts, then yes, I do want the honesty, as long as it includes something constructive so that I can learn and improve.

And I dont recall saying "that IRL they passed so wonderfully and that is the reason..." This is starting to sound like Fox News now. Let's pull 10 words out of 100, and then rearrange them so that they mean something completely different. That may work on some, but not me.

Crap... I'm letting them pull me down to their level!

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I agree with you, let someone have their moment,they are sooo happy about going out for the first time, if you don't have anything nice to say, keep your thoughts and opinions to yourself!

Hmm, I say just go out en femme, have fun and don't worry about it. If we post our experiences we are bound to get honest feedback based on the experience of others. If we enjoy ourselves that is the main thing notwithstanding any potential critics. Works for me. :)

I'm in the the let someone revel in their moment category. To quote Thumper from the Bambie movie, "If you can't say something nice don't say nothing at all."

There are a handful of us in these pages who are honest. Not brutally, just truthful and matter-of-fact based on years of experience with everything from relationships, fashion and the reality of getting out & about in this wonderful world of ours. As such, you can almost set your watch to the threads which come about preaching "if you can't say something nice...". Perhaps I'll subscribe to that theory once the day comes that I stop hearing about CD'ers being more feminine and/or passable than natal females. Really?

Then again, why is honesty seen as not being "nice"? And this doesn't even consider the necessary honesty that is found over in the TS section. Just because this is a different playground, I'm not about to start blowing pink fog up anyone's skirt for the sake of meeting someone else's notion of what it is to be nice and/or supportive. More often than not, there is nothing more supportive than honesty.

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Originally Posted by bok4fun

This isn't to argue the sa's motives. We all know a good sa is looking to make a sale, and yes, our money is as good as anybody's. But we don't know if over the course of two hours of browsing and trying things on and getting opinions that there wasn't some type of connection made which a true friendship could develop from.

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Originally Posted by Nadine Spirit

I'm not going to try and say that scenario could never happen, but in my 10+ years of getting out, and doing a vast amount of shopping, and talking with sales associates, never once has a true friendship developed. And I talk to them a bunch. I get their opinions, I show them how I look, I talk to them just like any other normal opinion. But in general people who are working, are there to work and not socialize. Personally I want my sales associates to be more concerned with doing a good job than trying to befriend me. With that being said, several SAs know me and remember me when I frequent their stores and they are always pleasant, but we don'g hang out together and gossip on the phone until the wee hours of the night.

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Most of the other points have been addressed eloquently, dare I say with sensitivity and tact :) but I thought I'd chime in on this one. You are absolutely correct in saying this can happen. One of my best friends is a woman I met while she was working on a Prescriptives counter at Macy's back in 2007-ish (how time flies?!?!). It certainly wasn't intention on either of our parts. I saw her a few times. Eventually phone numbers and emails addys were exchanged. Then we are having coffee together. She was there for me when a dear friend took her own life. There has been a bit of shopping (though not as much as one might think over the years, there is so much more to life and friendships than obsessing about shopping). Exchanging Christmas & birthday presents. I have been to a birthday celebration at a restaurant with about 10+ of her family members. I know her boyfriend (great guy). We have all been to Vegas together.

I am grateful that she reached out to me that first time because she "thought I looked like an interesting person". But I do agree that this should not be a typical expectation on anyone's part, that being out & about is likely to lead to friendships with other women. A more realistic expectation is the potential to create lasting friendships with others in our community. Regardless, it is the lasting friendships which make this whole thing so fulfilling.