it is not so simple

An interesting discussion started in Judy's thread so I thought it would be better to start a new one rather than hijack hers.

The discussion started with Char GG saying that it is better to tell your SO at the beginning rather than all the pain and suffering that can occur if she discovers that her husband has been lying to her on top of the whole CD thing.

My point to Char was that its not always so simple. Take my case as an example, until I was close to 40 I was a very very occasional CD. Dressing or part thereof was really a sexual fantasy more than a reality. Until I was 40 I had never dressed fully, never put on makeup, had no 'female persona' and no need/desire to dress. When I met my future wife it did not enter my mind to tell her about my kink, what new couple sits down and shares their sexual fantasies at the beginning? Over 15 years of happy marriage I maybe put on an item or two of woman's clothing 12 times.

Then around 40 it all changes for me, Becky emerges the next year or two I am trying to work out what is happening to me and why and who I am. Would this have been the time to say to my wife "hey dear I think I maybe transgendered but I am not sure, sometimes i think i am then many times I don't"? Imagine the hurt and pain I have spared her over the last 10 years by not sharing my confusion. At the end of the day she is happy, I am happy and life is good.

The point of this post is not to justify my decision but to try and engender (pun intended) a conversation about when to tell if ever.

It is easy to think of life in simple terms. Man is CD, man meets woman, man tells woman so he doesn't have to hide his habit/hobby/need at the get go. This ignores the fact that it is very rare that the way we feel about dressing at 20 is the same as at 40. it also ignores the fact that we are not very mature at 20 and maybe can't project forward to what may happen 20 years from then.

For many on here we start as occasional CDs and then things evolve often slowly, at what stage do we suddenly think OMG this is something I need to share with my SO? Not so simple....

And those who do tell at the start and a DADT situation results, do you regularly update the DADT SO when things change?

Becky you make some very well thought out and valid points, how do I know because I am one who told the wife about my
desire to wear women's clothes while dating. Now it was at first I told her I had worn panties but then I asked to borrow
some of her clothes, she obliged and well I considered that acceptance. Well the reality she thought it was just a quirk that
would go away with time. Well you know the story it ebb and flowed over my younger years but as you say as I got older I knew it was way more and now I'm in my 50s and well yeah I'm very much gender fluid.
We are pretty much DADT, and she's
pretty tolorant but she's told me many times there's no way she ever thought when I told her about the panties it would have gone this far.

You are absolutely correct. It is not simple. Twenty years ago, when I was in my mid fifties and after 30 years of marriage, I told my wife. The telling was prompted by the difficult time she was having with her self esteem as part of a health problem. She kept down rating herself and elevating me. I told her to show how incorrect her logic was. Fortunately, it worked because we both now joke about neither one of us being quite "normal." Yes, it could have backfired but doing "what ifs" through the retrospectoscope seems not very helpful.

For me my wife knew I dressed up a few times with friends at crazy parties prior to marriage.
And prior to marriage a girl we were friends with said to her "you know your marrying a cross-dresser", my SO laughed it off.

I never felt that Judy was something I had to do, it was (I hate to admit it but) but dressing was such a turn on.
After about five years of marriage and my wife and I were on the same page in our love making, I no longer needed Judy and I stopped dressing for about twenty-five years.

A little over a year ago, who knows, mid-life crises or something, I tried to get Judy back. It wasn't easy, it took more makeup, but I feel She's still part of me.

Right now it's been three months no dressing and I'm fine with that

I'm a Cross-dresser and I love it, just don't tell anybody. LOL

Until I dress again, Miss Judy

Becky, your story is pretty much mine word for word.

You can try and justify all you want but would it not be better if you were honest with your SO?
Getting caught after the fact is never good.
It makes no difference now as to why you never told her 10, 20, 30 years ago thats all in the past and you need to deal with the now.
No one said it would be easy did they?
The problem with many is their pride gets in the way.

I am with Tracii and will add..I wish that people be honest and explain themselves. Fetish dressers have their jollies as well as the closet glam set. Those that enjoy the orgies are yet another.. And then there are those that are "gender gifted" and have a real need to publicly express it. Some of those may be still closeted in mindset. No matter what,it truly helps acceptance if you can explain WHY you do what you do.

Tracii,
Your position assumes that there was something to tell "10, 20, 30 years ago". Becky and Rachel have both related histories that make it clear that, for many of us, what we would have confided back then would be the same thing we might confide now. I may be a bad example, because my wife has always known about Kelly, but ten years earlier, I would never have shared that with a girlfriend or spouse. I do believe that, in general, open and honest is the best path, but it is very often not that simple. Where one's TG nature is revealed after years of hiding it from an SO, more relationships perish than not. I can't cite numbers, but where the discovery is involuntary, I'm pretty sure it's even worse. Where one knows enough about one's nature, honesty is the better bet, but that's the catch - the knowing.

Shades of gray.

Hugs,


Kelly Marie

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tracii G

You can try and justify all you want but would it not be better if you were honest with your SO?
Getting caught after the fact is never good.
It makes no difference now as to why you never told her 10, 20, 30 years ago thats all in the past and you need to deal with the now.
No one said it would be easy did they?
The problem with many is their pride gets in the way.

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Well, sure, it would be better, but the point is that there are a lot of circumstances that make not telling the path of least resistance, and I only know of one guy that was perfect.

I think the point here is that often we don't know, aren't willing to admit, are ashamed or feel like it's something we could control, and sometimes we change.

The same can be said for women. It's human nature. Quite frankly, the fears that we let captivate us and drive us to deception or denial have some reality.

Would it be best? Sure. Should I not eat that doughnut? No. As far as the spouse is concerned, yes they have a right to feel upset. And i thik many of us feel compasion for them.

But was it intentional to hurt? Is the anger of an appropriate scale, or over the top. Where is the compasion and understanding on the other side. Like it or not, if you stay in a relationship for a length of time you are most likely to screw up sometime along the way. But hopefully it can be kept in perspective!

Life is indeed complex. Relationships change. We grow, or not. Time passes, so does youth.

Yet, we can still choose joy, peace and harmony.

I am pondering reopening open discussions with my wife. It will take courage. It will not be simple as I have much more understanding of myself than I did 30 years ago when we got married. She also has changed. Society has provided much more info on gender dysphoria.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tracii G

You can try and justify all you want but would it not be better if you were honest with your SO?
Getting caught after the fact is never good.
It makes no difference now as to why you never told her 10, 20, 30 years ago thats all in the past and you need to deal with the now.
No one said it would be easy did they?
The problem with many is their pride gets in the way.

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Tracii, firstly pride has absolutely nothing to do with anything. My reasons for not telling are very simple, in my case and my opinion telling her would be a selfish act on my behalf that would achieve nothing beyond upsetting her needlessly.

The reason i brought up history is simple if I told her in 1997, 2007 or 2017 what i told her would have been very very different. Not because I was in denial not because of dishonesty, pride or lack thereof simply because how I felt changed radically.

Maybe some people struggle to understand that I, like many on here have evolved over the years from a fetish type CD 20+ years ago to a genderfluid T type of person. For example in 2007 I was starting to think about hormones and the like and was preparing to tell my wife (I delayed for reasons that were unrelated) and then very suddenly Becky disappeared for over 3 years. I cannot imagine the damage I would had done to my marriage and the hurt I would have caused my wife if I had told her I am transgendered and then 6 months later said oops I am sorry I don't feel that way anymore.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Becky Blue

My reasons for not telling are very simple, in my case and my opinion telling her would be a selfish act on my behalf that would achieve nothing beyond upsetting her needlessly.

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This.

This is exactly why I don't tell my wife. She has seen clothes in the past and been VERY unhappy and insisted I go to a therapist to stop dressing. I went and talked, then decided that I was not going to stop. But I know she is not going to be accepting, so I keep it to myself and only dress when she is away for hours or days.

Tina

So, here are some thoughts that many of us have had at some point. It will eventually go away, or after I am married the desire will leave. BUT, it didn't, and we continued to think that it will lessen over time. I still have the desire to dress, maybe for different reasons now, but the desire has never really gone away. Yes, I did have a time where dressing didn't happen, but the fantasy, or urge for doing it never left. It was only after I revealed the truth to my wife that I started to accept this side of me. This took many years, and I still have times when I can get down on myself. It's not so simple.

I would hate to think how things could be different if my wife wasn't accepting. I honestly question whether I could stop if I had to. I have attempted this on a couple of occasions, and it has never lasted more than 6 to 8 weeks, generally ending in an extreme blow out. This was both before and after the wife knew.

Mostly, I didn't know myself.

In my teens, I thought I might be gay. Just to be clear, when I was in my teens (1960's), gay meant happy. There were other very derogative words in use for homosexual at that time.

In my 20's, I had what today would be called a "panty fetish". Before asking my girlfriend to marry, I thought long and hard about this, I finally decided that once I got married, I would have enough real sex and my fetish would go away, Neither turned out to be true.

Through my 30s and 40s, I had a few pair of panties and a bra or two. No clothes of my own. Not that I didn't dip into my wife's closet every once in awhile (while she was gone), but it was at a very low level of engagement.

It wasn't until my mid-fifties that the pink fog really moved in, Then I started acquiring pants, blouses, and shirts. I got a post office box to ship my online purchases to. When I bought from eBay, I would bring cash to the PO, buy a money order and mail it in for payment. It was a big step for me to get a PayPal account for my eBay purchases. That's when I really go into makeup.

I was close to 60 when I bought my first dress.

Now, in my mid-60s, I'm thinking that I'm bi-gender.

So, when should I have told my wife?

As another perspective, in my late teens and early 20's, I was hit on real hard by a gay man on two different occasions. It was at a time I was still unsure about my sexual preference due to occasionally panties. In both cases, nothing happened. I extricated myself from both situations, even the second one, where a lot of alcohol was involved. I sobered up real damn quick. These have never recurred except once, if you count the time that this guy hit on me when I was en femme. He was wearing beer goggles, as they say. Should I have told my wife before I got married? I don't think I ever told her.

It's difficult enough for some of us to go on dates as it is without telling a date that you're a crossdresser haha
So I do agree with you Becky :)

Yes it can be difficult

It is never simple...
For some of us there really may not have been anything to tell...
In my case I was always different, but somehow from around 17 years of age until ~35 years of age I had no desire to dress... I met my wife when I was 21. I didn't tell her anything because I believed at the time it must have been a phase. Or something...
Who knows? We don't necessarily tell people EVERYTHING about ourselves, especially if they were inconsequential things that left no lasting effect on us... Would you necessarily declare that you once did something at say age 13 that was not repeated and that had no effect on you or others? Probably not...
In my case shortly after the need to express my gender came back I disclosed fully to my wife, but only after I realised that it was not just a minor irritation. this happened quite quickly for me, but for others... It could take time. For others they just have too much invested to risk losing their marriage... I get that. Is it ideal? probably not.
I do not judge others for their decisions.
We all have our own path to walk and our own burdens to carry.

Being in DADT, the last time I heard a derogatory comment, I made it quite clear that there was nothing wrong about my creative proclivity. This whole non-acceptance attitude and the continuing CD hater society endorsement is just starting to get old. I can only imagine if men were to ridicule all females that had any hint of male attire or attribute. We would all be labeled as sadistic misogynists. If I were to tell my wife that it's dresses only for her from now on she'd think I'd slipped a gear. Yet, I have to confine half of my true self in order to uphold marital stability. Not exactly an equitable situation, is it?

I think many of you are fetishtic dressers [nothing wrong with that] But your "kink" embarrasses you. Much like some other "kinks". So,many choose not to tell as they have no explanation that the SO would feel happy with. If it is sexual,then jealousy and inferiority comes into it..

I agree completely with Becky. It was 45 years after we got married that I revealed the secret. I had to or go mad. It was a time of great turmoil over my identity. We both went to therapy and it resulted in some degree of understanding. She doesn't want to see or meet Gretchen and I get it. But when we got married it had been years since I had experienced the turmoil. What was I going to tell her when it seemed to have gone away? But later when it came back it was accompanied by the feelings of shame and all that produces. Should I have told her then? Yes, but shame is a powerful force and my open persona was strong masculine while underneath there she was and she was angry that I would not openly let Gretchen be seen (actually didn't have a name then).

I think it is important to recognize that there are two things at play here. One is the fact that there is an attraction to the clothes of the opposite sex. But that is simplistic. There is often a lot more to it than just wearing the clothes. There is a reason for doing that and that reason is that the personal identity is not so cut and dried as the sexual binary. Gender and sex are different things and are expressed differently. But the social expectation is that your sex is supposed to determine how you express. Thus when you switch there is fear of being ostracized and shame because you are doing something you know others will not accept. But you can't stop it because it is a part of your gender identity which was established, we now know, by the time you were about 15. We also know it doesn't change much after that. The brain has established that pattern and it is pretty set.

Thus, it is a lot more complicated and involves an evolution of finding ways to reconcile the fact of who you are with the social expectations set by social standards. That creates conflict and dealing and experiencing with that creates dysphoria that needs to be faced head on and openly if the discomfort (dysphoria) is ever to be resolved. But in the meantime you have picked up a wife, started a family, gained lots of friends and everybody thinks you are a normal person who is quite consistent with sex, gender and expression. The truth is all of that is false. Thus, as things evolve, you reach a point where decisions to reveal or not have to be made. Some reveal; others don't. Either way there are consequences and sometimes they are very unpleasant. I would have been happy to reveal the truth to my wife before marriage but 48 years ago my crystal ball would not produce clear images. Still doesn't. Evolution can be cruel sometimes but that doesn't change the fact in the earlier stages you have no idea where the behavior is going to go. So, as Becky says, what do you actually tell when you have no idea what is going on in the first place? Are you revealing something that will never be a problem and thereby creating a problem at the time of the revelation when that is not necessary if it just goes away? Hindsight is always 20-20; but at the time you should reveal you may be blind as a bat. It is unfair to judge on the basis of what would happen in the future because you don't know what will happen and don't know what to reveal. Of course I should have revealed my trait 50 years ago but that is based on what happened over the next 50 years and because it had not happened yet I could not reveal the truth because the truth was not known. My wife accepted that completely. So why doesn't she want to meet Gretchen? Because she married a man and she wants to live in that world and seeing her husband as a woman is not what she wants. Not what I would prefer, but it's OK. She understands that she knows Gretchen well but has never seen and does not want to see Gretchen as Gretchen. In other words, she has accepted the identity but not the expression. Works for me. It is mostly about the identity for me anyway and the dressing is just an occasional layer of icing on the cake.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tracii G

You can try and justify all you want but would it not be better if you were honest with your SO?
Getting caught after the fact is never good.
It makes no difference now as to why you never told her 10, 20, 30 years ago thats all in the past and you need to deal with the now.
No one said it would be easy did they?
The problem with many is their pride gets in the way.

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rogina B

I am with Tracii and will add..I wish that people be honest and explain themselves. Fetish dressers have their jollies as well as the closet glam set. Those that enjoy the orgies are yet another.. And then there are those that are "gender gifted" and have a real need to publicly express it. Some of those may be still closeted in mindset. No matter what,it truly helps acceptance if you can explain WHY you do what you do.

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rogina you seem to be divisive of those that identify differently than yourself and what exactly is "gender-gifted" and why cant those that are fetishy, glamy, or enjoy orgies be included. are "gifted" souls somehow better ???? also if you please will you "explain WHY" for us....no one ever seems to be able to so if you found the elusive answer as to "WHY" could you please share with the group....

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Originally Posted by Rogina B

I think many of you are fetishtic dressers [nothing wrong with that] But your "kink" embarrasses you. Much like some other "kinks". So,many choose not to tell as they have no explanation that the SO would feel happy with. If it is sexual,then jealousy and inferiority comes into it..

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judgement is such a spontaneous and natural act, not as contrived as most think. we all do it without even thinking about it and spew about how we dont. preconceived perceptions, you dont know me but profess what is best for my existence....walk a mile in another's shoes before you judge them....

[oh and some of my best friends are fetish dressers]

Becky, Carla, Timid Tina, I'm with you. To those who say "You Must Tell.", have you considered the possibility that there are SO's and wives who would prefer not to know? My wive has found clip-on earrings, makeup traces on my face, this forum in my computer history (this many years ago, smarter now), I wear plain panties and women's jeans daily... I feel confident that with all these hints and never a follow-up question by her that she doesn't want to know the details.
Tracii, have you considered, as Carla said she keeps things in secret for marital stability which pains her, but she, like I do it with the intent and hope that telling would be too hurtful to our beloved and also my children. If we tell, we force them to decide, stay and condone, it encourage it (this one is rare), demand we stop (we won't) or leave?
In Psychology Today, month's ago was an article about spouses being told secrets of their mate and how it causes them then also live with that secret or tell on their mate. It used examples of spouses who have broken the law to those who are gay.
Bottom line is, just like i can't tell someone that telling is wrong since I don't know their situation, I feel others here shouldn't say not telling is wrong. I find some replies here to be arrogant and judgmental.

Sarahsometimes makes a very good point, My wife does not know of Diane, but, does she? She has dropped many hints in the past but I know one of her greatest fears is being left alone. If I were to do the big reveal it could well end our relationship, and that may well happen in the near future. I could cope on my own, I don't think she could. For her, better to not rock the boat and leave things as they are, a reasonably happy and stable family life, or possible seperation? There are good reasons for telling your partner about what you do, but there are also sometimes very good reasons why you can't. There is no black or white on this issue.

I agree with Becky absolutely. A discussion with my wife early on would in no way resemble what we have discussed since she found out about my crossdressing. When we met I believed my dressing to be ancient history and it didn't even enter into my mind. Time passed, I changed. I'm not happy about the deception but at the time I met my wife crossdressing was so distant for me that it seemed irrelevant if I thought of it at all.

To those on here who feel it is always correct to tell early on all I can say is that it must be nice to live in sugch a black and white world and only have to deal in absolutes.

Even though the coding may change, evolve, expand, progress, telling our partners early on at least gives them a baseline, allows them to learn about it, and for them to accept this as a part of us through the developmental stages of the relationship, before a long term/lifetime commitment is formed.

That doesn't make the changes easy, but certainly more adaptable. And likely our own changes MAY be a bit more of a slower evolution.

Take the more typical path many of us take, hiding, denial, repression. Then one day we either pop, or get discovered. In midstream our partners are now forced to adapt to an entirely new current, one they have little to no understanding of how to navigate and one they've never experienced before. Oh and also one they've been brought up to believe is bad, wrong, maybe even evil.

So as they are trying to wrap their brains around all this, WE now are playing catch up with our own evolution and changes are more likely drastic and rapid.

So yeah, not simple by any means.