People watching

I was out shopping in drab in a large electrical store, waiting to be served so just people watching. It’s a large store and towards the rear was someone (#1) dressed in female clothing, taller than the male SA serving her, insulated jacket, trousers and flat shoes, thinly built, light curly hair and carrying a handbag. Now normally I’d have just said female but due to the distance I couldn’t see the face clearly and there was something about the walk that made me question my initial assessment. Most folks I suspect wouldn’t give it a second thought but as we seem to have a radar for these things…….

Anyway as I pondered a female (#2), definite this time, walked past and away from me so I’m now viewing her from the back. 5’10” ‘ish, well build as opposed to skinny, dark wavy hair, black coat with a fur edged hood, black skirt and flat boots. Now from my viewpoint and because of her size and build it was quite possible that given the way she was dressed what I observed could have been one of us.

Now the point of this is standing there watching I had my belief in our ability to blend reinforced. Person #2 was dressed not dissimilar to how I’d dress if out shopping. If someone viewed me from behind I’m pretty sure they’d see much what I saw observing this GG. Turn me around so a viewer sees my face then the goal post move. However if I were to be as far away as #1 then any observer would need good eyesight to get past my makeup job.

So, #1 walked towards the tills and once closer I’d now say definitely female. Also, within the store during this time, there were 3 other GG’s who were all as tall if not taller than me at 5’10”, just browsing the displays. All 3 were, how can I put this, solidly build, not skinny size 0’s, not that different across the shoulder in build to a good many males. Curvier at the rear though and that is one of the big tells. I await the posts about hip and bum padding being a must!

And here’s something to think about. #2 probably wears size 18 or larger. I’m size 18 tops and dresses, 16 skirts. Clothes that size fit me. I’m not squeezed in busting buttons, straining seams. Skirts and dresses aren’t too short. They fit as intended. So if I share clothing sizes with a GG, why is it such a leap of faith to assume that if out dressed when observed I don’t immediately stand out? So here’s my point. If you dress for the time and place, as both #1 and #2 were, even if you’re pushing 6’, moving around in a busy shop without standing out isn’t as difficult as some believe.

One other thing, when I’ve been out and about say browsing in a shop, when coming into relative close proximity to other shoppers, their body language tells me that they’ve suddenly read me. It’s only once up close that the realisation takes place. So again this adds evidence that suitably dressed it’s not the case that we walk around with a big neon arrow above us, folks singling us out at a hundred paces. It’s perfectly possible to move about, be part of the crowd, if you can present like those around you.

Helen,
So right we do come in all shapes and sizes , I guess women have made it easier for us in some respects as they wear trousers or jeans far more . OK for once only being a short arse at 5' 7" does have it's advantages still not sure about the hip butt padding debate as there is little room to manouver in my slim fit jeans anyway , I just accept I'm a trim lady .

I know it often begs the question what exactly do we come over as , the problem is we can't stand back and see oursleves .

To tell a funny story when I recently went into a large store to inquire about a new hob for my kitchen , I was walking towards the diplays with a male SA , a couple were looking at fridges , the husband appeared from behind the fridge door as he did so I said , " How nice this gentleman is just getting the milk from the fridge , it looks like he's made a nice cup of tea for us all !" His wife got the giggles, the husband gave me an eyeball look , then his wife said , " He can't even manage that at home , so this will be a first !! " He then gave her the eyeball treatment .

To add a second , I recently realised I'd run out of milk , I was wearing a cowl neck sweater black opaque tights and a skirt maybe a couple of inches above the knee . The supermarket is only about ten minutes drive away so I couldn't be bothered to get changed , I pulled on my heeled boots and a warm jacket to nip round the shop quickly . It was a bit of an eye opener as I don't usually get a second glance but the boots and the shorter skirt were certainly making some guys give a second glance .

I am fortunate 5' 7" size twelve clothing size nine or ten shoes so I can blend fairly well, my problem is when I open my mouth sometimes. :-)

Your "passing thread" is deeper than most, Helen. However, I think there r some givens to passing.

If passing to u means not being noticed, then dress in long, inconspicuous women's things. In other words, clothes than women wear who don't want to be noticed!:thumbsup:

As a CD, I hate my look in such items. I resist wearing them at all costs! As a result, I'm noticed and immediately made by everyone.:brolleyes:

When I go out and don't want to be noticed? I have a perfect disguise! I go out dressed as a man! Works every time on everybody:heehee:

Sherry,
No it doesn't mean dressing as grandma ! In fact I have seen two or three Cders in my town who choose to dress like this and they stand out more simply because they look so old fashioned .

Going out to integrate does not mean hiding and don't forget Helen and I still know how to dress to be noticed when we wish to , I can't speak for Helen but I love looking a little special for a night out . The difference for me now is I'm out as Teresa and it feels less and less like crossdressing that's the differenece in our life styles now .

Helen you got me thinking about all the females I have seen and worked with in the construction field. Not a large percentage but still enough to be noticed on the job. Other than the obvious breasts and polished short nails they fit and blend in with the "boys" and some can put a grown man to shame in ability and skill at their jobs. Yes they are built a little more than your average woman but when you see them out of work there is no mistaking what their gender is. And they can hold their own in conversations and vocally expressing their disappointment and disgust when things go awry. All I can ask for is that I "blend" to the degree that I make you look twice and hope my "tells" aren't that obvious and I gain some respect if not tolerance for being myself.

OK Helen you are starting to get it.

I do enjoy your stories.

Yes all women are not the same.

My friends GGs, range from four feet to over six feet, less than 100pounds to over 200pounds. This is just the beginning, as they are all different.

I was watching Say yes to the dress with my roommate. If you haven’t seen the show, it’s women picking out wedding dresses. This one women look to me to be TG, just an impression. Well when she spoke I knew, there was this tone in her voice. I didn’t say anything, I waited to see if my roommate would catch it. She didn’t, toward the end of the show they announced that she was, and isn’t it so wonderful. I was happy and sad for her at the same time. I know it is good for the ABC community, but the poor girl. With all she has been through (assuming), now she is getting married and she is still a hyphenated person.

There are TG people out and about, it’s just most people aren’t looking for them. I’m (dressed of course) in the makeup aisle helping my roommate. There is this couple looking at mascara, not that unusual. Other than a guy showing any interest in makeup. I’m standing right next to them and she says, “Now you can keep this with your things”. At first I was wondering why they were looking at discount makeup, know I understand.

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Originally Posted by Teresa

The difference for me now is I'm out as Teresa and it feels less and less like crossdressing that's the difference in our life styles now .

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YAY, now if you can get passed that passing nonsense. Yes I follow you too, your almost there.

Jean,

I feel I got it a while ago. I know I can't pass at close quarters but I can hide in plain sight by dressing appropriately.

I was really addressing the post towards those teetering on the edge of going out but caught up in "I'll never pass and the mob will get me".

I've come to the conclusion recently that one of the big signs we use to determine gender is waistline. GG's as we know are curvier and clothing items such as coats are jackets are cut to accentuate this. I know a GG who's somewhat overweight so doesn't really have that waistline. Her coats and jackets still do and that creates an impression in the viewers mind.

We often think that as males we tend to be taller and that's going to give use away before anything else but that's not necessarily true.

Next time you see a GG in trousers, flat shoes from behind ask yourself what are the things that say female. You can't see facial features so what are the tells and is it possible you could copy, emulate those?

Broader male shoulders, balance them with hip pads. Hair, that's what wigs are for. Waist, get a corset. Handbag, buy one (and learn how to carry it properly). Walk, practice makes perfect.

Yes it takes work on our part, confidence in your own presentation and the ability to relax and be natural in those surroundings add greatly.

As I pointed out in the OP, I'm sure many folks only read me once we're in close proximity and they get a good look at my face. I was stood in a shop entrance getting my folding brolly out of my bag (raining cats and dogs) when a GG way shorter than me stood beside me and commented about the weather being so bad. It was only my voice that gave me away as until then she'd seen what she expected to see. She'd not looked at my face.

Still no mobs with pitchforks.

Jean, I'm pretty new to this gig and haven't (yet) ventured out, my wife needs a LOT more time.
In my brief time on this site, I've discovered both Teresa and Helen's input to be invaluable wherever I've found it. Both of have been sources of inspiration, insight, erudition, and calm common sense.
However, your own post sounded only patronising. I hope it's simply unfortunate phrasing and that you were trying for encouraging. But I've seen nothing to suggest that either lady needs such and certainly not pitched so condescendingly.

Abbiedrake,
Many thanks for saying we give the support . At times I think we also fall into the trap of overthinking it , Pat pointed that fault out to me .

I hope you can find ways of persuading your wife . I admit I was suprised that my wife accepted me going out socially , maybe she is regretting that now as it still wasn't enough for me . I guess it's already water under the bridge now and we have to adjust to making new lives , I know that's the part that scares some people and why they hold back .

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Originally Posted by abbiedrake

Jean, I'm pretty new to this gig and haven't (yet) ventured out, my wife needs a LOT more time.
In my brief time on this site, I've discovered both Teresa and Helen's input to be invaluable wherever I've found it. Both of have been sources of inspiration, insight, erudition, and calm common sense.
However, your own post sounded only patronising. I hope it's simply unfortunate phrasing and that you were trying for encouraging. But I've seen nothing to suggest that either lady needs such and certainly not pitched so condescendingly.

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I read nothing in Jeans post that was patronising or condescending, only honest comment from a free adult. I suggest getting over it rather than trying to pick a fight with the benefit of internet anonymity.

My wife and I saw the same episode of "Say Yes to the Dress" that Jean (#7) mentioned. Any person appearing on this show has to sign a waiver. The producers cannot just show up and shooting and then posting your image. She was aware of the script. She was also within her own comfort zone, as well as the others in the production. That is a little different than the vast majority of MtF cross dressers. Unless there are hoards of passable cross dressers out there I must be totally blind. I'm out and about a lot in retail settings. In my time living for over forty years in the same small city I have observed exactly two cross dressers, and, one of them I observed twice.

Women of varying sizes? Tons. Living near a college I have seen a women's visiting basketball team hit the local mall. Yep, an entire squad over six feet tall and slender. I see many short and overweight women too which includes my wife and her two sisters. The tall women draw my attention because women over six feet are a rarity. Women five foot two and overweight are common.

The entire "passing" thing not overblown. Many, if not a great majority of cross dressers, are not comfortable being cross dressers. No need to go into the reasoning. I think it is a fact based upon observation. The mind is a computer. The eye sees. The mind stores. It learns from observation, whether or not on a conscious level. There are definite nuances in behavior between men and women. These are tell tale signs.

I am still six foot even in stocking feet. I'm 195 pounds. As a man I think I fit in nicely. Sometimes a self evaluation occurs. I have had pictures taken with I in a setting with my wife, daughter, daughter-in-law, granddaughter, mother-in-law and other females with their husbands thrown in for good measure. I tower over all except for my son who is four inches taller than I. Yikes! No way am I going to pass. Too old to blend in with those collegiate basketball playing women. Too heavy too.

So, when I am out and about, I do not intentionally look for MtF cross dressers. However, my computerized mind does scan for unusual or out of place things. It comes from seven plus decades of programming. I enjoy Helen's stories. I know for sure, if one of you, were to observe me in a store wearing a tasteful outfit you'd be reporting on this site "I saw one of us today!" That will not happen because those types of jaunts are out of my personal comfort zone. Darn, I wish I was five foot six and overweight!

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Originally Posted by Helen_Highwater

I await the posts about hip and bum padding being a must!

I’m size 18 tops and dresses, 16 skirts
.

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Okay I will say it because this is one of my biggest pet peeves...

OMG You need hip and butt pads, shoulders wider than your hips screams "I am a man in a dress" from 50 yards away. Long before details like hair, makeup, and nails even come into view your mind has already made the call based on shape. Human minds are hardwired to do this, it's an evolutionary thing.

I people watch all the time and take notes. Decades of watching and noting, I very very rarely see a GG with shoulders wider than her hips.

Roberta, i used to live around Seattle for almost 30 years. Now almost 9 yrs, in small town midwest. It seems around here, most women have shoulders as wide or wider than their hips, and most over weight. It is just the way it is in this small town rural area, and I seldom ever see a dress worn, unless if is Amish or Mennonite women.

Taller women often have a bit wider shoulders than hips----Linda Carter (Wonder Woman) was a good example. Women are generally shorter than men because Female Hormones speed up the maturation of the long bones. So women stop gaining height in their early teens. In some cases, the hormones take a few years longer to kick in, so the woman keeps growing taller and her pelvic-bones do not begin to spread until later, so they do not widen as much before growth stops.---Such women are usually 5'9" to six feet tall. Often their hands and feet will be larger as they have more time to grow before the hormones stop the hand and foot growth. Often their Shoulders ARE wider than their hips, but still, they have a DEFINATE FEMALE shape---only a bit "stretched out".----Especially true if they are Thin. ---As they gain weight, they will still put the weight on the breasts and hips. ------- So many later maturing women will be taller with wide shoulders---Which can be a great and "Enpowering" look. -----The dressed Guys can be spotted by their SHORTER necks.---Check the photos of Peta Wilson And Linda Carter

Thanks for all your comments.

The fact that women come in such diverse shapes to me is one other factor that enables us to move about in relative anonymity while dressed. The growing obesity problems, while not good for the individuals concerned do blur the lines somewhat when it comes to making gender assessments.

The diversity of shapes and sizes will undoubtedly make going out dressed more difficult for some. Being tall and heavily built isn't going to work in your favour. One size isn't going to fit all but for the majority of us we fall into a range that, with a bit of shape modification, can present ourselves out in the world and move around without drawing everyone's attention.

So fundamentally that's my point. The holy grail of 100% passability is beyond the reach of all but a very lucky few. The remainder, of which I'm definitely one, can do a good enough job to enable us to spend time out amongst the general public, engaging with individuals without encountering animosity, if fact to just be another face in the crowd.