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Google: transgender genetics
Our scientist friend, GretchenM, led me to it. WOW !! There's more info in these links than you can imagine as to why we are what we are, especially when asked why, and we reply 'I don't know why'.
For you ladies who are on the verge of losing your marriage or SO, read the links and maybe you can get her to read some you select as best explaining the genetics factors that you may possess. This info could just save the day. It's sure worth the try. Hugs!
Well, I know what I'll be reading for the next few days. Lol. Thanks Jenny!
Hi Jenny, I can say that without a doubt when GretchenM talks I listen. Gretchen has a way of explaining things like no other. I am going to check that out, I need the help. Thanks
Jenny,
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink !
I tried various ways , I wrote it down , I asked her to join me in counselling . If they don't want to know nothing on this Earth will force them ! I know my wife regrets all this now but it's too late , there's no going back for either of us .
Teresa is correct;My first Wife would have no part in me wearing Fem Clothes, My second Wife, Well she was OKQuote:
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink !
with my dressing as long as I staid home. That was OK with me.
So some will and others will not. Now we have to look better when we choose a GG friend.
Rader
Teresa, Are you comparing your ex to a horse? Ok, kidding aside, I agree with you but speaking for myself I need to explore all the ideas I can. Maybe it will work and maybe not but I need to turn over every rock I can.
My wife is now saying that if there are previous lives, I was definitely a girl in mine and the era was the fabulous 40's to the early 50's because of my taste in clothing and furniture and decorations around the house. Once she saw my newest dresses, she put everything together .... also how most of my shoes are more neutral and classic in style and definitely not "funky" or "stripper" types.
Two comments.
1) I read some of the articles when "Googling" transgender genetics. One of the studies dealt with less than 400 transwomen and a similar control group. Hardly, a sample that would insure acceptance of the theory. If this linkage were to be established would there be a call for gene therapy to "treat" those who are afflicted.
2) Maria, my wife ascribes to the possibility of previous lives. There was a brief cable series dealing with young children who experienced prior lives and could offer detailed descriptions of people and events. Unless it was all a scam some of the events were borne out. Personally, I think this may be a potential reason for my desires to wear women's clothing. When I was three years old we moved from my maternal grandparents house to an apartment; mom, dad, brother and I. When I was pre-school I experienced graphic visions I was a young woman. Those visions are still ingrained in my mind. And, the visions are right in line with my initial attraction to a specific woman's garment, and, a dislike to wear any clothing around my neck.
Hi all,
These new studies, all in about the last three or four years and ongoing today, are mostly pilot studies that are seeking what are called associations between genetics and the expression of the genes. They are finding some fascinating results, but they are very far from formulating theories or actually finding causes. It is widely recognized that even if there are solid genetic findings that form a foundation for transgender behavior, environment also plays a major factor in the development of the expression of what is produced by the genes. Keep in mind, genes do not create traits; they create molecules that are used in the thousands and thousands of processes in our body, some of which result in anatomical, morphological, and behavioral expressions that define us. Most genes simply regulate other genes, but that regulation can take on many forms and have many different consequences. Tiny micromutations rarely do anything of any significance, but the same micromutation in another place in the same gene can substitute one amino acid for another in an important protein or hormone or chemical receptor that alters its action in very important ways. Or render the protein non-functional so something that is supposed to happen doesn't happen and that influences the next biochemical step.
One study in 2017 using nearly a 1000 people (still a small number) found 3,534 genes that are associated with a human's gender identity. That is about 1/7 of our entire genome. They also found numerous micromutations in 45 of those genes that are closely associated with transgenderism. Theories? No theories, just a discovery of something that likely has some kind of significance. Other recent studies of small numbers of people have found even more genetic associations with the behavior. In no way should any of this be taken as proof of a direct genetic cause, but rather proof that in some way genetics is heavily involved and these particular genes need to be examined much more thoroughly to see how they connect to the development of our sense of gender identity. It is said, the prime principle in behavior genetics is that all behavior begins with genetics. So, we can safely state that the way we behave IS GENETICALLY BASED. Now the question is, how does it work? Behavior is genetically based, transgenderism (including crossdressers, non-binary, gender fluid, transexual, and whatever other category you wish) is a behavior, therefore transgenderism is based in genetics. Plain and simple? Yes and no. Depending on the behavior, the genetic involvement may be 5% or 95%. If 5% then 95% is environmental; if 95% genetic then the behavior is 5% environmental. It all comes down to the dance between genes and environment.
Many more of these studies are in the works. One that was announced and is occurring involves about 10,000 people in Europe and the United States and includes about 3,000 trans people. Where they found 3,000 trans people to participate is beyond me as most trans people are too private to be willing to participate in such studies. But perhaps recent loosening of the discrimination factor is allowing more to be willing to do this. I would jump at the chance in a heartbeat and even help with the study, but, alas, I am not a geneticist. I am a general ecologist who has spent my life repairing horribly disturbed and ravaged land and studying the physical and biological processes involved to make that more successful - I am an Earth Doctor, so to speak. That said, I do seem to have this weirdly deep interest in this subject and I have the biological background to understand professional research papers in peer reviewed journals. Why am I interested? It is personal - I'm trans.
More and more of these studies will be happening, especially with the cost of genome sequencing dropping from thousands of dollars per sequence to a hundred or so dollars. It is a new technology that has made GWA (Genome Wide Association analysis) available in just the last few years and until now tiny numbers of subjects were necessary because of the high cost. It is still very expensive when you have 10,000 people to sequence, but the pilot studies have been so fruitful, support for searching really deep into this subject is gaining more and more financial support. That said, the researchers are still very far from finding causes. Even finding close associations though is very exciting and shows they are on the trail to actually finding correlations which is the next step. And that could lead to identifying how this thing actually works which can explain to those who wish to know why they are the way they are. Such as many people on this website, including me. And a whole bunch of others around the world. It can also perhaps bring peace to some families that are struggling with a mom or dad that has revealed a deep, dark secret that is so hard to understand and deal with that it can destroy a family. The researchers are well aware of how very important it is to get to some answers. Sadly, unless someone is really lucky or exceptionally brilliant, it will likely be years before the answers are found. This is really complicated stuff. The answers WILL be found!
Gretchen Marie
P.S.: Thanks Jenny.
Just an observation. We live in a world transformed by the application of the scientific method. Our understanding of both the universe and ourselves has changed immensely. Though research is a slow, daunting and frustrating endeavor, that starts with small inferences. Hypotheses will be advanced, tested and retested. Some will hold water and others will not. What Gretchen describes is the way science has to work....incrementally, but inexorably. lead to a new understanding.
What science doesn't offer is pat answers. I'm struck by how readily humans will accept notions and "explanations" that are little but the exercise of imagination, while at the same time criticizing the statistical validity of rigorous analysis.
Hi Jenny :hugs:, I have a very workable DA/DT and I am going to leave well enough alone.>Orchid ..O:daydreaming:O..
Gretchen,
Please don't stop reading these papers and giving a more acceptable explanation to us , personally I feel we do need to know , not only for our peace of mind but in an attempt to explain it to others .
When you look at humans in these terms it's easier to see where body chemistry leaves off and environmental influences take over . We often behave in different ways depending on our surroundings and the people present .
Interestingly talking at this level can also explain why some people are on board with TG issues and some aren't , the genes may not have laid the pathways for that thought process to happen .
I'm going to have to take all this in small doses otherwise my genes may go into overload !!
In the past there have been threads asking if you could take a pill to stop Cding would you take it ? Is that question really so unrealistic ? OK the spin off question :- " Would you want to stop ? "
Kim,
Surely the important point is people are spending time and money trying to give us answers , if it's not the most lucrative area it begs the question why they do it . I'm very grateful because twenty years ago my first counsellor completely ruled out the idea that we are born like it .
Gretchen,
One final thought on the sample numbers quoted , I would say it is an easy target to reach now as gender clinics in the UK and in parts of Europe are overflowing . One interesting point about one of the research papers , many of the differences from brain scans were only seen in M/F TGs .
Jenny, the trick is to get your wife to accept it.
Kim: Thank you for your response. You are quite right on the pat answer problem. And nowhere is this more true in the biological sciences. The physical world operates with mathematical precision; biology operates on a close enough type of precision, an approximation. That close enough foundation is one of the major source of why biological organisms are diverse even within a single species with a small population. It also explains why new species arise. But seeking solid answers as often occurs in physics or chemistry is like trying to catch a mouse in a room full of trash - as soon as you have it cornered it vanishes and you hear it on the other side of the room. Answers will be found for this that leave little doubt because genetics is the biological interface between the physical world of mathematical certainty and the chaos of biology. Environment is usually the wild card that produces room for doubt that the complete answer has been found. Separating things out is a daunting task full of assumptions.
Teresa: Thanks so much. You are correct that in the neurological research regarding brain structure and functioning, there is a difference between MTF and FTM. Those differences may well be related to the different starting conditions as well as the powerful influence of very different hormonal systems in operation. Clearly hormones are a major element of gender differentiation, however hormones are proteins produced by genes. You can't escape the influence of those little buggers.
The question becomes whether the genetics of transgenderism are also different in those two start conditions? Or are the same genes or micromutations present and functioning in both but the resulting pathways of their operation different and thus produce the same type of expression in very different ways? Distinguishing that in the genetic realm is still in the future and to this point the sample sizes of populations have not been sufficiently large to even begin to identify such differences. 10,000 people may change that, but 100,000 people might be needed if the differences are obscure. At this point, it appears the genetics that are functioning, mostly micromutations, are the same in both. But stay tuned, that may change tomorrow.
Teresa, what you say is true. But, for those girls who have not reached your stage, maybe there's hope with this info.
Having a Science minor, a chenistry almost ninor, and an advanced animal Science degree I've studied a lot about the breeding of animals to and even learned a lot about genetics. I seen cells split to create two calves to be identical. I've seen 24 identical looking heifers in a line and had a picture of them but can't find where it's at. I taught genetics to many students and have in the back of my mind suspected most of the dressing I do has to be from a gene standpoint somewhere. Wether it is a mutation of a gene or the actual gene itself trying to display itself with in my body. Gretchen if we can split cells and reproduce identical new norms in the Dairy and cattle business I know that mutations of genes can occur and have often wondered if that has possibly been the cause of our desires in us trying to emulate our desires of the female body or at least enough that we enjoy cross dressing. I wish now I would have studied more in college and ran more experiments in my studies in my post graduate work.
Oh well too late for me but I'm sure one day we will be able to explain it fully.
Jaylyn,
You are quite right in your view that mutations probably play a role in this. What the researchers are mainly looking at are micromutations such as gene duplication or deletion and SNPs (single nucleotide polymorphisms). The 3,534 genes identified (so far) that are associated with producing our gender identities and behaviors form a vast and complex network of interacting genes. In some cases, micromutations do nothing in affecting the operation of such complex networks, but others can be insignificant if operating in a small network but their influence can be greatly magnified in large, complex networks and become very significant. Finding these micromutations takes huge sample sizes because they are so rare and so variable. It also requires a thorough understanding of what all those genes actually do and how the network actually functions. We have found lots of evidence, but understanding and knowing the genetic functioning and "meaning" is still very faint. It is an exciting time with progress occurring at unprecedented rates. Too bad it is so blasted difficult to understand. That is where people far above my pay grade come in.
Adding to the complexity are exogenetic changes....gene expression influenced by environment....as famously documented by the measurable impacts of the Dutch Hunger Winter discernible in grandchildren (and perhaps now even the great grandchildren) of those who survived.
Hi Kim,
I didn't to bring up exogenetic influences and epigenetics. But you quite right and it is suspected that once the behavior is established, which may involve some heritable epigenetic influences, epigenetics provides modifications to the basic behavior pattern. And that creates a good deal of the individual variations we all show. But, in the literature, I don't see a lot of talk about epigenetics. I think they are trying to tie down the basics at this point and will get into these significant effects on much our total behavior. There is also a lot of focus on possible pre-dispositions that may exist that are established in genome of the person and, at a later time, are triggered by environmental effects, especially experiences we have. Lots of things to explore.
For those who do not know what epigenetics is, it is very important part of our total genetic package. It is through epigenetics that your environment influences the activities of your genes. Your genes need to be told when to do something. Our bodies have billions of cells that act as sensors that monitor our condition constantly. When something is detected that doesn't meet specifications, identified by something not functioning as designed, these cells send signals to the brain and other places telling them to make some adjustments. Those places then trigger the process of the appropriate genes jumping into action to make things right. Otherwise those genes might have a low activity or even no activity. And the activity continues until the adjustments are made and the genes are turned off to conserve energy and chemical resources.
But influences outside your body can have similar effects, causing genes inside your body to turn some on or some off and even modify your active genes so some genes that are usually turned off all the time are turned on or genes that are regularly used are essentially shut down as useless. These environmental influences alter the expression of your genes which can influence behavior, tolerance to abnormal environmental influences, and the like. In short it really adds a huge complication to interpreting the role of genes in the functioning of our body.
As Kim stated the Dutch Hunger Winter or famine during WW II was so intense it actually altered genes so much the alterations where not reset when conception of a new person occurred. The alterations became inheritable and most of the alterations were not to the benefit of those who received the altered genes. This is the dark side of epigenetics; there is a bright side in that most epigenetic influences tend to be more positive and allow us to adapt to new circumstances. Most effects cannot be inherited; but some, both positive and negative, can be inherited. So this is another complication in deciphering the cause of our behavior. Fortunately, with modern genome analysis methods a lot of these effects are easily detected in genes, but figuring out what they actually do is more challenging.
Thanks Kim,
Gretchen
One of our obstacles is conflicting needs, or at least perceived needs, that then drive perception and interpretation of facts.
I think it helps a lot to be able to say -"It's genetic" - as it gives an island of explanation to stand on in the raging ocean of societal and individual discontent with trans^ impulses. For families needing a comfortable explanation, it works- indicating it is either part of normal or at least not a choice.
But it may not help us with many others, for whom 'mutation' means 'damaged', for example. If accepting trans^ is threatening in some way, a person will counter that sociopaths are also driven by genetic impulses in some way, and all of human history is about how dark or disorderly impulses are controlled.
I welcome the research, as it provides a much needed alternative framework of facts to counter simple rejection concepts -that we are at best just people who need to be more disciplined about joining the gender norm teams as instructed, or at worst damaged goods or perversions of nature. However, I think our stronger argument and eventual success is going to be based on our actually being harmless. It is more straightforward and reflects personal experience.