My thoughts on why

it's totally acceptable for a woman to wear masculine clothing but not for a man to wear feminine clothing.

I'm struggling for the correct words to express this, so bear with me:

Though women have come a LONG way since the days of not being allowed to vote and the attitudes that a woman's place is "barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen" we are *still* not viewed as *equal* by the majority.

Therefore, when a woman appears as masculine it's viewed as aspiring to climb that ladder of social equality, not actually to *be* a man, but to show the world they can do most anything a man can do.

On the other hand, when a man appears as feminine it's viewed as him taking a step back *down* that ladder of social equality.

As wrong as the concept has been proven to be, women are still viewed as the "weaker sex".

I do not in any way personally subscribe to, or agree with, these points of view, but I do feel it is a major reason for society's rejection of M2F crossdressers.

I completely agree. For as far as women have come in our society, they are still considered second-class citizens, and like you said, Vanya, "weak".

I don't think it's just our culture, either. Most societies around the world are patriarchal, and to be a man is to be "strong", and is desirable, and to be a woman is to be "weak". Many people, especially men, just can't wrap their minds around why someone who is in the "privileged" class would take a "step down" to the "second" class, and consider anyone who would want to do so as somehow defective and a failure.

Unfortunately, I think that for the most part this will be the reality as long as this paradigm is the reality. This can't even begin to be undone until women are recognized as men's equals, but men as a whole, like any other person/group who is dominant and powerful, have too much to lose by letting this happen.

I think you are mostly correct here Vanya, but I also think that many people also attribute a pervisity to CD-ing M2F.

The old saw about "dirty old men" springs to mind. The average citizen cannot seem to accept that there might not be a sexual angle to a person's CD-ing, hence the often asked question of "are you gay?" to those of us who have come out into the open.

GG Vanya: Do you have any ideas why people seem creeped out by a guy wearing fem items?

Quote:

---

completely agree. For as far as women have come in our society, they are still considered second-class citizens

---

Interesting, I feel as though I'm treated as a second class citizen as guy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by noname

GG Vanya: Do you have any ideas why people seem creeped out by a guy wearing fem items?



Interesting, I feel as though I'm treated as a second class citizen as guy.

---

Noname,

The point of my thread was an attempt to explain why "people seem creeped out by a guy wearing fem items".

I'm obviously not creeped out by it, I'm married to a crossdresser. :D I will admit to being "put off" by the CDs who dress years younger than their obvious age, and those who portray women as trollops/sex objects and go out in public dressed that way. If given one wish pertaining to this it would be "if you wish to emulate us, please do it with class, dignity and respect.

Pornography still portrays us as slabs of meat on an open market. We've fought long and hard trying to overcome that mentality. Please don't promote that image when you emulate us.

I posted a thread in the lounge once touching on this subject, and in it I remarked that possibly the negative reactions of women could be a feeling that a crossdresser is an "imposter" i.e. portraying himself to be something that he is not.

I also stated that, in my opinion, a "man in a dress" has a better chance of being accepted by society than the man who dresses to pass as a woman.

I still think the prevailing cause of non acceptance for M2F CDs is the original one I posted above. How many times have you heard a young male child called a "sissy" when he showed emotions or conducted himself in what was perceived to be a less than *macho* manner? :Angry3:

Sorry to say its been that way for ever Love, since the cave man wacked a female on the head with his club and draged her off to the cave for a night of loving, its a gender battle for sure and its why some of us are on both sides.

Well, I've worked with several GG who were 2nd class workers. Working in skilled trades, one told me , she didn't want to do the job because she was afraid of breaking a nail. And there were more than a few that had that thought.I'm a girl, and I have to be here to keep the numbers right. But on the other hand, I've worked with some GG who would crawl into the presses and get in the grease with us guys, cuz it was part of the job. Those GG were respected, but the others were remembered. Does that make any sense, I hope so...BJ

Y'all I didn't intend for this to become a GGs vs. CDs topic. Please don't take it in that direction.

My point was what I perceive to be the general society's take on men "acting like women" or "aspiring to be women".

Vanya - I think you give your gender too little credit. Women did not start out with the right to dress as men, and certainly not with the right to behave like men. Women fought a long, hard struggle to liberate themselves in terms of clothing. Women are still fighting to be able to act fully within a man's sphere and not be evaluated by their gender.

Women have been shunned, mocked, damned, ostracized, abused and killed in the name of their pursuit of these rights and freedoms. Women are entitled to wear men's clothes because they compelled society's acceptance, and at a cost that was infinitely greater than would be demanded of the crossdressing male community to gain its own acceptance.

Erica

I never thought that. Wow... hmmmmmmmm...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EricaCD

Vanya - I think you give your gender too little credit. Women did not start out with the right to dress as men, and certainly not with the right to behave like men. Women fought a long, hard struggle to liberate themselves in terms of clothing. Women are still fighting to be able to act fully within a man's sphere and not be evaluated by their gender.

Women have been shunned, mocked, damned, ostracized, abused and killed in the name of their pursuit of these rights and freedoms. Women are entitled to wear men's clothes because they compelled society's acceptance, and at a cost that was infinitely greater than would be demanded of the crossdressing male community to gain its own acceptance.

Erica

---

Yes, women have been put down and stomped on for wanting the right to vote, etc. but how was the current trend that has now come to fruition of women wearing pants, other male attire opposed? I don't think there was the same stigma attached to women when they started wearing pants as there would be for a man walking around in a dress. This probably began with women wearing pants for horseback riding, shorts for tennis, etc. and evolved from there. I remember in the mid-1960 a great aunt of mine finding it very amusing that a young female cousin, then in her teens, was wearing blue jeans, she couldnt' get over that, but best I can remember she just thought it was funny in a non-threatening way.

P.S.--On my recent visits to Lane Bryant, I was struck by how many cropped pants, capris, long pants, gouchos, etc. there were vs. skirts and dresses. Cropped pants/capris are the new skirts for the women; i.e, the standard attire.

So what's wrong with Barefoot and Pregnant anyways?!?:D

I think you've got part of the basis correct anyway. The rest of the equation is mixed up in sexual stereotyping. That's my opinion anyway. to much of the general public we are percieved as homosexual. Which there is nothing wrong with being gay or lesbean but as far ways of life and acceptance the gayl lifestyle still has a way to go in the eyes od exceptance. the lifestyle has moved forward in leaps and bounds but it is still largely frowned upon.
There is also huge foreign thought towards being something your not. Really as being a CD I often find it hard to wrap my head around some of this stuff. Now from an outsiders point of view with no education on the subject we might as well be from another planet. A creepy planet at that.

But hey these are just my own little thoughts.:happy:

And then there are us men that percieve women as the more powerful sex. I came from and grew up in a family where my father, while the major income earner and fairly independant, my mother was the recognized leader of the family in all other matters. My father's mother was of a similar type. So I was a second generation believer of the power of the female.

My family also did not show physical affection. So as the oldest child, but at a young age of 4 or so, I think I took notice that my younger sister would get affection (mother holding baby) that I did not receive. I would then do things to garner favor from my mother to obtain whatever little bit of affection I could like trying to sew and cook.

There is much more I could say, but will cut it short. Let me just say that it took years to find a women that appreciated a man that was not a Strong Male Figure that many women look for in a husband and the years looking for female affection took theit toll and I think increased my need to crossdress later in life.

Dee

This is almost exactly what I said in post back in May. I totally agree...obviously.

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...928#post444928

Vanya, you may be right, but I think there is much more to it than that. I believe it has more to do with the idea that it would be "unmanly" to admit that there is anything wrong with manliness in culture and society today. Wanting to change the way things are is tantamount to admitting that there is a problem, something that men "just don't do". As we have seen in many threads here, though most of us refuse to take it to heart (myself included), most of the problems with men wanting equality of dress, self expression, etc is all in their (our) heads. Most are willing to give us this equality if we just ask for it. This holds true even for other men. More men will be ready to allow change when they see enough other men allowing it.

when I lived in Florida I had a gay friend who worked at a Dennys,his name was Tom,he passed away from aids.
One night Tom and some of his friends came in the Dennys dressed to the nines,they looked like 4 very tall women,very beautiful,I made a comment that it's a shame when a man can dress like that and look better than a women,GG.
the manager kicked me out and would never let me back,just for complimenting Tom and his friends.
when Tom I and a couple other regulars from the coffee clatch visited him in the hospital,what a shame someone with such a good heart had to die so horribly.
I am proud to say he was my friend.

Thinking critically requires more effort than many people wish to expend. I believe most people are perfectly comfortable labeling people by category. How sad... the human condition is much more complex than that.

Quote:

---

I will admit to being "put off" by the CDs who dress years younger than their obvious age, and those who portray women as trollops/sex objects and go out in public dressed that way. If given one wish pertaining to this it would be "if you wish to emulate us, please do it with class, dignity and respect.

---

I assume you mean somone well into adulthood dressing like they are in the teens. I admit I like younger clothes, although I'm in my early 30's. Of course I've always been that way, quicksilver and surf wear. But I so agree with class and dignity. Let's not go out looking rediculous.

Quote:

---

Pornography still portrays us as slabs of meat on an open market. We've fought long and hard trying to overcome that mentality. Please don't promote that image when you emulate us.

---

I'm confused. What does porn have to do clothing? I an only assume, don't dress like a hooker.

Quote:

---

I also stated that, in my opinion, a "man in a dress" has a better chance of being accepted by society than the man who dresses to pass as a woman.

---

I agree with that as well. The times I have worn a skirt, ( I have one denim one ) I have not been given any trouble. A couple stares and few second glances.

Quote:

---

I still think the prevailing cause of non acceptance for M2F CDs is the original one I posted above. How many times have you heard a young male child called a "sissy" when he showed emotions or conducted himself in what was perceived to be a less than *macho* manner?

---

Too many times. Kind of like when adults tell a young boy who scraped his knee, 'don't cry, big boys don't cry' My mom used to tell me, are you a man or a mouse? lol

You do have some good theories imo.

Quote:

---

Vanya - I think you give your gender too little credit. Women did not start out with the right to dress as men, and certainly not with the right to behave like men. Women fought a long, hard struggle to liberate themselves in terms of clothing. Women are still fighting to be able to act fully within a man's sphere and not be evaluated by their gender.

Women have been shunned, mocked, damned, ostracized, abused and killed in the name of their pursuit of these rights and freedoms. Women are entitled to wear men's clothes because they compelled society's acceptance, and at a cost that was infinitely greater than would be demanded of the crossdressing male community to gain its own acceptance.

---

I think that is only partially true. Like I've said before, no women younger than 40 knows any different and grew up with pants. If they fought so h ard, why are they supportive of my rights to wear what I like? No not even the old timers who wear pants support our rights.

I think what really kicked off women wear pants was women working in the factories during WWII. Who else was going to work at the factories with all the men out fighting? So I've heard, I'm not old enough to know.

Quote:

---

Yes, women have been put down and stomped on for wanting the right to vote, etc.

---

Actually, men fought for the right to vote to. Origonally it was only rich land owning white males that could vote.

Quote:

---

P.S.--On my recent visits to Lane Bryant, I was struck by how many cropped pants, capris, long pants, gouchos, etc. there were vs. skirts and dresses. Cropped pants/capris are the new skirts for the women; i.e, the standard attire.

---

I notice that to. I told my wife pants are for men, ( as in, that is what we are expected to wear ) and I am not going to sit idle and let women take over all possible pants style. I could really rant on that. Complete BS :Angry3: :Angry3: :Angry3: I refuse to lay down and only accept a very basic boring cut. Sorry it just won't happen. I am very artistic person, and I'm gunna let it show. I should start wearing them everywhere, even to church, screw everyone, this is bs. Ok, I'll stop now.

Quote:

---

Thinking critically requires more effort than many people wish to expend. I believe most people are perfectly comfortable labeling people by category. How sad... the human condition is much more complex than that.

---

So true, so true.

I would like to add that part of the 'creepiness' if you will, comes from it being unexpected. They are not thinking of what we like in regard to style, they are thinking of what they expect, and when someone is not what they expect it throws them off balance if you will.

I find it a shame that people feel someones sexual organs dictate what styles they might like, of course I'm preaching to the choir.

ps. wow this is a long post - sorry

Hi Vanya, How about a M T F such as myself with an "attitude"? The trend has gotta change sometime. I think we just let "society" walk all over us in a manner of speaking. This is the same society that cannot see how a man can be a "sub" to a female "dom" but in everday life, he is the husband and the head of the house. (Actually, I've always felt marriage was supposed to be an equal partnership and not one be the "head" over the other.)My purpose for being an "adventuress" is to show that I can be feminine and decisive at the same time. I don't let others set the "bar" for me. I set it for myself. Plus, I don't ask for "permission" to be me or seek approval from anyone.Maybe I'm alone in this, but like I said, you gotta start somewhere plus I just gotta be me. If others can't see I'm my own person, it's their problem, not mine. :happy: Ericka

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GG Vanya

it's totally acceptable for a woman to wear masculine clothing but not for a man to wear feminine clothing.

I'm struggling for the correct words to express this, so bear with me:

Though women have come a LONG way since the days of not being allowed to vote and the attitudes that a woman's place is "barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen" we are *still* not viewed as *equal* by the majority.

Therefore, when a woman appears as masculine it's viewed as aspiring to climb that ladder of social equality, not actually to *be* a man, but to show the world they can do most anything a man can do.

On the other hand, when a man appears as feminine it's viewed as him taking a step back *down* that ladder of social equality.

As wrong as the concept has been proven to be, women are still viewed as the "weaker sex".

I do not in any way personally subscribe to, or agree with, these points of view, but I do feel it is a major reason for society's rejection of M2F crossdressers.

---

Yes I agree, but it is one of many reasons, some accepted by the TG community and some rejected

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GG Vanya

On the other hand, when a man appears as feminine it's viewed as him taking a step back *down* that ladder of social equality.

As wrong as the concept has been proven to be, women are still viewed as the "weaker sex".

---

The trappings of a patriachal society. Female adoption of male clothes is viewed as a victory on their part. The adoption of female clothes by males is viewed as capitulation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Joanie

I remember in the mid-1960 a great aunt of mine finding it very amusing that a young female cousin, then in her teens, was wearing blue jeans, she couldnt' get over that, but best I can remember she just thought it was funny in a non-threatening way.

---

Yup I have always wondered what it was like back in the 1960s when the first women started to wear jeans. Obvioulsy they were bucking the trend and would have been stared at as well, but I have never heard of any cases of physical attacks etc. Clearly the husbands and boyfriends of these women did not forbid them from wearing jeans in public either otherwise they would have been closeted just as we are today.

You hit the nail on the head Joanie, by saying a woman in jeans is non-threatening. That is the key. It is the old double standard that woman are not sexual beings and thus when they wear masculine clothes it cannot be for sexual reasons.

On the otherhand nobody believes that if a man wears feminine clothing it can be anything else but for sexual reasons i.e. he is a pervert, deviant, homosexual, child molester etc. Anything negative or "evil" is always attributed to men when we deviate from the macho script we are all supposed to religiously follow while women are thought of as saints and thus their reasons for deviating from their script such as crossdressing is never considered threatening.

So women are allowed to crossdress because nobody is offended as women's reasons must be innocent - i.e. it is only done for comfort etc. Nobody wants to think that maybe some women crossdress because they want to, because they like the masculine look, because it allows them to access masculine behaviour and feelings, because it makes it easier to compete against men, because they feel empowered in masculine clothes while they feel vulnerable in femining clothes etc. In fact, there are lots of reasons why women crossdress just as there are lots of reasons why men crossdress.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DeAnna Elaine

Thinking critically requires more effort than many people wish to expend. I believe most people are perfectly comfortable labeling people by category. How sad... the human condition is much more complex than that.

---

That too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GG Vanya

If given one wish pertaining to this it would be "if you wish to emulate us, please do it with class, dignity and respect.

Pornography still portrays us as slabs of meat on an open market. We've fought long and hard trying to overcome that mentality. Please don't promote that image when you emulate us.


I also stated that, in my opinion, a "man in a dress" has a better chance of being accepted by society than the man who dresses to pass as a woman.

---

Very eloquenly spoken! I agree totally.

BTW, I don't try to emulate anyone other than myself.:happy: Ericka