religious views and TS/TG

Hi all, I hope I'm posting this question in the right forum, as it concerns how we, as TG/TS people think about this issue. I've been thinking about this because of my own inner struggles and some of the posts I've been reading here on the forums. I've pretty much come to the conclusion that we are born with this gender issue and we have to deal with it, wheather we like it or not. How the gender issue comes out in our basic personality is an individual thing, but we all have to deal with it. Anyway, my thought on this is that God gives people challenges in their lives, the "thorn in our side" if you will, and how we deal with it is what is important. Most of us try to deny this gender "thing" at some point in our life, but eventually that denial causes us more problems then the issue would cause. We all know what religious fundamentalists try to tell us about this, that it's wrong and sinful, but if that's true, why do we have it at birth. Sinful behaviour is generally a choice we make, and I've never had a choice about how I feel, only about how I act on these feelings.
So, to my questions. Do you think this is something we were given to test us? Do you think We were given this challenge to see how we would deal with it in our lives? Is this a gift that we are supposed to develop to the best of our abilitys? To think from both gender-related points of view should be a valuable skill, but we spend so much of our lives denying this ability that we don't develop it to the extent that we could, and maybe even should. Are we denying a gift, an ability that "normal" people don't have, an ability to think outside the "gender" box that should be valuable to society and encouraged because of the insite it gives us?
Any and all opinions are welcome here, I look forward to reading them.
Amber

I have given this subject many hours of prayer and thought. I once was very involved in church activities rising to the level of elder and did a few sermons from the pulpit and also sang in the choir. I participated in the laying on of hands in healing prayers for the sick and went to prayer meetings weekly. I left the church (or rather they asked me to leave), when my marriage broke up. It did not break up over TG issues but it was God's answer to my prayers in a terribly unhappy family. I was trying to follow His leadings in all that I did. Much to my surprise, the churches that I was involved with during that period all came to the same conclusion, I must be rejected. I found myself shunned and held at a distance while they supported my ex in keeping my children away from me. This was over twenty years ago and I never saw my children again. During this time, my TG issues surfaced and while these people do not know about them, I do know what they would say about TG and me. However, between me and my maker, I know how earnest I have been to stop this TG and be the person that I think the church would approve of. He has not answered my prayers this way. In fact, I have been encouraged to continue learning about TG issues and do not feel that I am sinning. I have seen countless miracles from Him in my life but taking TG away from me has not happened. So I am left with the knowledge that I can not return to church and that while I continue to seek His guidance, I am set aside from others. There is more to His wisdom than can be obtained from the church. Someday, I hope to be at peace with the life path that I have been set upon. Thank you for bringing up this issue.

Isnt this concept predestination? If so does it not totally contradict free will?

That being the case, free will doesnt exist and the need for religion is moot.

Just my twisted thoughts
:hugs:
Kimberley

Oh BTW I would call myself spiritual but not religious.

There's an excellent (but fairly expensive) little book on the different aspects of this topic that you can read about on amazon.com or a similar site: Transgendering Faith: Identity, Sexuality, And Spirituality (Paperback)
by Leanne McCall Tigert (Editor), Maren C. Tirabassi (Editor)

I was raised by a mother who was a Jehovas Witness, but my beliefs changed a lot as I got older. Here's how I see it:

What we are is only seen as a sin by some religions, not all. That, to me, means that the gods of those religions who sees us as sinners obviously did not create me. So who did? :)

I don't think this power we call "god" has a gender - we need to be males and females to produce children, but being androgynous must be the greatest way of showing that we were really created in "his" image. That's one of the reasons why I will never deny my feminine side, even if I am FtM. Gender roles are mostly something we're taught anyway, not something we're born with. God didn't say that men couldn't wear dresses.

My beliefs are very Gnostic, and I believe in learning through reincarnation - and I honestly believe that those of us who have both a male and female side are souls who have learned certain lessons, and that it's all a part of becoming "closer to god" or whatever you wish to call it.

Most of our problems are created by the people around us anyway - if more people accepted us, it wouldn't be so bad, would it? Yes I would probably still wish I had a male body, but if I didn't constantly have to struggle to be accepted the way I am, I don't think it would bother me nearly as much.

I've been accused of just making this up to give me an excuse to be transgendered... and even though these really are my true beliefs, I can't say if that's what I did or not... but isn't that what all religious/spiritual people do - try to find the answers to their questions? :)

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Originally Posted by Kimberley

Isnt this concept predestination? If so does it not totally contradict free will?

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No. What seems Fate are merely the circumstances within which free will is exercised. You are in a given (perhaps chosen by yourself) situation in which there are a limited number of choices. Seems random, often is in part. But which choice you make is up to you- free will. Just because the choices are often crappy doesn't make them any less exercises of self determination. I believe we've been through all this many times before, past lives equally (or more) troublesome, filled with self doubt and turmoil. But our TG/TS natures are something necessary to this particular life, important to the evolution of our souls.

hi amber

you have a good question.i was brought up in the church and for a long long time denied my gift because in the Pentecostal Faith it is wrong and being married for 20 wonderful years i hid my " at that time " CD-ing from my wife because it is considered wrong and sinful. but it is a part of me if you read my story you will see that. i just could not take it anymore i had to do something how long can you go without CD-ing? well it catches up with you. my wife found out. and that was the end of my life has i knew it all because the church does not agree with it.
i think that god gives us a gift and we have no choice but to use it. it is who we are you can't stop your ts any more than i can. i had to come out to my wife and the church after she told everyone i wanted to become a woman. in the end i found an affirming church i went there and never looked back. how i use my gift is change my gender become the woman god wanted me to be and all the problems and issues that come along with it.
so i think that god wanted me to be a woman i say yes well why did he not just make me that way from berth i don't know you ask him/her

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Originally Posted by Poltergeist

I don't think this power we call "god" has a gender - we need to be males and females to produce children, but being androgynous must be the greatest way of showing that we were really created in "his" image.

... but isn't that what all religious/spiritual people do - try to find the answers to their questions? :)

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I liked this reply and quoted the bits I related to the most. My family wasn’t religious; my father took me to a church “once” after my second brother passed away, so I wasn’t raised with any church going. I wasn’t raised in a vacuum either and was familiar with the concepts of Christianity and found comfort in having “faith”. I’ve participated in many Christian clubs, Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and the various flavors of the Protestant side, (I was even Baha’i for a while) seeking an answer to my only fervent prayer, “Lord, give me the eyes to see, and the ears to hear”…the truth.

What I have learned thus far from participating in all of these various groups, some great, some not so great, is the overall spirit of the congregation as it’s influenced by the leader, priest, pastor, shepherd. Those that truly love and care about all humanity impart that spirit in their teachings and it influences the flock, unfortunately the “club rules” (doctrine and dogma) often interfere and always seem to cause problems, so I move on.

This past June I found a post on a local forum from a little congregation that claimed to accept everyone, including gays, and that the congregation consisted of both straight and gay couples married or otherwise, but their doctrinal leanings were Old Testament based and yet they claimed they wouldn’t “try and change you or tell you your wrong” so I was intrigued. I dressed up in my Sunday best and paid a visit on one of their mid-week Bible studies to test their claim. Well it turned out it was true, they were a mix of straights and gays, young and old. The thing was that the 2 co-pastors were gay and the straights didn’t know it. One of the most interesting aspects of my first visit was I was the first and only married, heterosexual cross dresser, dressed full out, they had ever seen, they didn’t even know we existed and assumed I was gay also. One of the primary elders (a little older then me, str8, married, a little redneckish) got seriously bent at my presence. He didn’t confront me directly but made his feelings known to the pastors, who kept him under control. Despite that I continued to attend their services en-drab to avoid creating problems because I felt a good spirit there, and it was true. I helped out with making food for the times of fellowship, and provided my skills in construction and carpentry for their needs. The elder who became so upset at my initial appearance, completely changed his perspective on gays and TG’s after getting to know me. The pastors were worried that if he found out they were gay he would leave them and no doubt he would have, well he found out finally. His wife refuses to go back to the church, but he has decided to stay.

One of the most comforting aspects of being Christian is the idea that life has purpose that God, Jehovah, Yahweh, Higher Power, has a plan for our lives and put us here for a reason. I believe that.

Well, I've seen some very interesting points-of-view so far. I hope a few more people respond to this, even if your views are quite different from the ones expressed here so far. I'd like to see what you think about this. I brought this subject up with my therapist and we had an interesting discussion about it. She has traditional native american views on religion and spirituality, so it makes for an interesting discussion. I'm quite open minded about religion, BTW

Hi Amber,

You might want to give Jade Catherine's site a read:

http://tgchristian.humanfish.net/

A very cool person with a great POV.

Love & Stuff,
Donna

Most of the bible and it's rules were written by mankind with the exception of 10 of them, and none of those ten say it's unlawful to feel the opposite sex...only in the man-written books say such a thing because they felt man was to try to become perfect.

It also doesn't say to behead your neighbor because he doens't believe in the same God.....and Christians did that, Muslims DO that, and in my opinion that invalidates religion as it has become so mankind driven.

Take Catholicism for example, why can't a woman priest exist? Why is it a sexist religion as is islam?

Religion is flawed, God is not and if he is, then we may be the byproduct of that.

I firmly believe in God, and in Jesus Christ. I believe they will understand what's going on in my head more than I do.

You are exactly the way you are supposed to be. You do not need to accept anyone else's guilt-trip, if you choose not to.

God is not a stern and grumpy old man, sitting somewhere up there in the sky, just waiting for the chance to punish his children.

God is infinite and is continuously providing you with an abundance of non-judgmental love. God continuously cherishes you, exactly the way you are.

You did not come into existence to live up to the very warped and neurotic expectations of close-minded religious fundamentalists.

Just live your life as your inner voice tells you. It's all OK.

I think that it is presumptious to try and "know" what God has intended. The fact is, we have been created. We are. As someone who I care about says: "It is what it is."

If you believe in God, you know that God loves you. You need to make the best with what you have. I doubt that you will ever be faulted for that.

I tell my closest friends that know me "Someday God and I are going to sit down together and have a good laugh."

I truly believe that we need to make changes that are necessary for us to face our demons. We are God's children. God will never punish us for dealing with our "blessing" or whatever else you choose to call it. Is it a test? We may never know.

It is what it is.

Cindi

I have struggled with this one since forever. I was baptized, raised to believe, to be spiritual, but not in a very "religious" family. I was firmly taught the difference between right and wrong and these values where based on Christian beliefs.

I have felt like a sinner for most of my 35 years now because those who would judge me for my feelings and actions, will do so in His name. I have always felt inadequate around religious people. I felt as though I did not receive and come to know their "Lord" as well as they did. After reading Cindi's book, I was thankful I hadn't. I would have probably shot myself.

In my view, belief in God, and following His principes should unite, not divide. I believe that God loves us all, even us. But they don't. Religions are kinda weird. Once while having a conversation with my mother in law, after she found out I CD, she asked if I would be willing to talk to her minister. I said that I would, if she would talk to a minister that I suggest. My point being, if you put up ten who say this is a sin, I will bet I can find ten who say its not. And that leaves me in a very lonely position. Who here on earth do I believe? I so desperatley want to live in God's grace, so desperatley want to be deemed worthy and go to Him when my time on earth is thru.

I have prayed and prayed for the answer from Him as to whether or not I am sinning. I have gone so far as to ask the He take me out of this world right now if I am. I have not received an answer. Hopefully one day, He will sit me down and say, "you did not have to struggle so hard with this my child, for I love you just as you are."

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Originally Posted by janie2261

You did not come into existence to live up to the very warped and neurotic expectations of close-minded religious fundamentalists.

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Amen sister!

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Originally Posted by cindianna_jones

I think that it is presumptious to try and "know" what God has intended. The fact is, we have been created. We are. As someone who I care about says: "It is what it is."

If you believe in God, you know that God loves you. You need to make the best with what you have. I doubt that you will ever be faulted for that.

I tell my closest friends that know me "Someday God and I are going to sit down together and have a good laugh."

I truly believe that we need to make changes that are necessary for us to face our demons. We are God's children. God will never punish us for dealing with our "blessing" or whatever else you choose to call it. Is it a test? We may never know.

It is what it is.

Cindi

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This is how I feel too. I'm extremely forthright about it with others.

Religions make presumptions when they cannot find evidence of what God would expect. In our case this is exactly what has happened.

I also believe we're put on this planet to learn and to teach. I believe we do have challenges to face in life, and that some of them are there for us to find and do with what we will.

Being transsexual is tough, but we learn so much about ourselves, face such an incredible amount of difficulty and pressure and many of us prevail. Those with eyes that are open often comment about our courage and bravery. For each and every bigot I've encountered, I've also encountered just as many who admire me for my strength, my ability to expose myself to enormous potential loss and for my resolve.

Religion works for some, and that's wonderful. But it's unfair for those who find religion useful to expect others to blindly follow it. I'm far more spritual in my own way than religion could ever give me. I believe faithfully in God and a spirit world, but found it in my own way and my own time, and I feel incredibly connected to that. I communicate with God constantly, and he is a huge part of the reason I've had pretty decent successes in my transition. I'm always thankful.

Let's not let a few closed-minded individuals decide what we are and how we should be dealt with. Even if religious people want to presume we are sinners, they should not forget a few simple things:

1. We are all sinners
2. We're all made in God's images
3. Jesus embraced sinners during his time on Earth. He did not follow the first testament doctrines of smiting them. He then went even further and died for our sins, so that we might all reach heaven one day.
4. According to the Bible we should not judge others. So why are we? It's pretty black and white to me. Don't do it!
5. We all know fundamentally what is right and wrong. Even if some of us lack a conscience, we still know. When we search inside of ourselves, we know. And this is not wrong. Transsexuals are not destroying the world while acting piouos. We're facing a difficulty that takes more strength to face than most have, and we do that in pursuit of a "normal" life of our own. When one looks at the ills of the world today, transsexualism does not even feature because other than a few nosey parkers who might think so, it is not a sin.

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Originally Posted by AmberTG

So, to my questions. Do you think this is something we were given to test us? Do you think We were given this challenge to see how we would deal with it in our lives? Is this a gift that we are supposed to develop to the best of our abilitys? To think from both gender-related points of view should be a valuable skill, but we spend so much of our lives denying this ability that we don't develop it to the extent that we could, and maybe even should. Are we denying a gift, an ability that "normal" people don't have, an ability to think outside the "gender" box that should be valuable to society and encouraged because of the insite it gives us?
Any and all opinions are welcome here, I look forward to reading them.
Amber

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Scripture says that "Like a father has compassion on his children, so God has compassion on those who fear him. For he knows how we are made. He remembers that we are dust."
We live in a fallen, inperfect world. It WAS created perfect, but sin marred it. I don't believe my gender issues were "given" to me to test me. They happened. Just like some children are born with a myriad of other "issues". God IS compassionate. He remembers those things I've not had a choice in. And He's with me in the middle of dealing with them. I trust Him.
A few months ago, I was in prayer while dressed, begging for some kind of "wholeness". I told Him that I had given up all that I was within to gain all that I had, such as my family. His response startled me. He said, "What does a man profit, if he should gain the whole world and suffer the loss of his soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?" Then He went on to tell me that to regain my soul, I'd lose most of what I have, such as family. Where will I go? No idea. I know where I would like to be. And I feel no sinfulness in that desire. But, I wait on my God to open the door.

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Originally Posted by SilkenPrincess

Scripture says that "Like a father has compassion on his children, so God has compassion on those who fear him. For he knows how we are made. He remembers that we are dust."
We live in a fallen, inperfect world. It WAS created perfect, but sin marred it. I don't believe my gender issues were "given" to me to test me. They happened. Just like some children are born with a myriad of other "issues". God IS compassionate. He remembers those things I've not had a choice in. And He's with me in the middle of dealing with them. I trust Him.
A few months ago, I was in prayer while dressed, begging for some kind of "wholeness". I told Him that I had given up all that I was within to gain all that I had, such as my family. His response startled me. He said, "What does a man profit, if he should gain the whole world and suffer the loss of his soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?" Then He went on to tell me that to regain my soul, I'd lose most of what I have, such as family. Where will I go? No idea. I know where I would like to be. And I feel no sinfulness in that desire. But, I wait on my God to open the door.

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A most enlightening post!
Thank you all for sharing your views, they are quite helpful to me.
Amber