The "insensitive" transman

There's been a lot said about how transmen are often more sensitive to women's issues than GM's, having "been there" to a certain extent. But the fact is, and I'm not sure if anyone else can identify with this, that sometimes I find myself thinking in the stereoptyically sexist way we're told most men think. Looking at a woman as an object, or wondering how -she- got such a high position in whatever company. As soon as a catch myself thinking this way I feel awful, but it happens more often than I'd like to admit.

There are plenty of possible explainations for this. Maybe I feel that this is a part of being masculine, or that thinking/talking this way will protect my masculinity. Maybe it's similar to the way people who have been abused can sometimes speak excessively harshly about others who've been abused-- they try to distance themselves from a painful experience by "turning off" their emotions about it, and along with that turning off their empathy for fellow sufferers, acting like it never happened to them. Maybe I'm generalizing my disgust with my own body parts to all biological females, and using the "women are biologically inferior" idea as a catalyst for all the other sexist prejudices.

In any case, I'm pretty frustrated by the fact that I can't get these thoughts out of my head, or even my speech. I feel like I'm not that great a guy after all.

Yeah, I'll admit I'm like that, too, sometimes. Like someone'll do something in traffic and I'll immediately react with 'must've been a woman driver' or whatever.
The thing is, though, there are real, irrefutable differences between the sexes. Men are built for physical work, women are built for having babies, and that's the way it's always going to be. That doesn't mean, though, that men can't be sensitive and good with children, or that women can't be excellent athletes.

I must also point out that, being a huge mama's boy, and mainly influenced by her-- she feels the same way. She much prefers the company of males. Doesn't really like women all that much. She thinks they're too flighty, flaky, and gossipy, and that they complain too much. And when me and her complain about women, my dad and brother jump in and tell us we're being sexist. Which is pretty funny, I think.

I think it could well also have something to do with my being trans. Almost as if I admit that women are exactly the same as men, it's a threat to my own masculinity. It's like... if women are as 'good' (don't jump me, it's just for lack of a better word) as men, then why would I have a problem with being one.

Annnnnd, now I think I sound like a complete and utter pr*ck.
*slinks off to hide in a corner*

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Originally Posted by false_dichotomy

There's been a lot said about how transmen are often more sensitive to women's issues than GM's, having "been there" to a certain extent. But the fact is, and I'm not sure if anyone else can identify with this, that sometimes I find myself thinking in the stereoptyically sexist way we're told most men think. Looking at a woman as an object, or wondering how -she- got such a high position in whatever company. As soon as a catch myself thinking this way I feel awful, but it happens more often than I'd like to admit.

There are plenty of possible explainations for this. Maybe I feel that this is a part of being masculine, or that thinking/talking this way will protect my masculinity. Maybe it's similar to the way people who have been abused can sometimes speak excessively harshly about others who've been abused-- they try to distance themselves from a painful experience by "turning off" their emotions about it, and along with that turning off their empathy for fellow sufferers, acting like it never happened to them. Maybe I'm generalizing my disgust with my own body parts to all biological females, and using the "women are biologically inferior" idea as a catalyst for all the other sexist prejudices.

In any case, I'm pretty frustrated by the fact that I can't get these thoughts out of my head, or even my speech. I feel like I'm not that great a guy after all.

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:o I uh... have to admit.... I'm not such a nice guy either...
Well.... I am a really nice guy, a caring, sweet, sensitive gay/bi guy.... (LOL.. even if I do say so myself).
BUT... I am also a total c*ck sometimes in a way which I probably shouldn't be, as a nice person, & which women probably wouldn't be too pleased with. Like, *hangs head*, like looking at a girl and thinking "Phwoar... I'd like to do her..." or "he he ... nice ass... more cushion for the pushin'..." (haha) etc....
If i verbalised these thoughts I am sure I would get a slap. ("Not sure I deserved that..." :p)
I don't feel so bad thinking thoughts like that about other guys because I know they pretty much think the same pervy way haha.

My mum has even said "Oi... that's not very nice" about some stuff I've said.
Like when I have frustratedly said "Aaargh you bloody women... why do you always have to play games? And dance around the point? Just tell me what you flipping MEAN!"

She said crossly (and misunderstanding me, actually) "I hope that's not the kind of man you'd be if you transitioned, like [poss biodad], with a horrible chauvenistic view of women."

Er no mum, I was actually just stating a fact, that I'd found that many females often don't get to the point when something has upset them, which infuriates me as I am a very simple, straightforward person, so it winds me up because I don't understand what they are getting at or mean.

To be fair though.... I have known guys that do that too. One of my exes for example.... but then.. he was basically a well stroppy girl with a man's body if you ask me, anyway :p.

As well as being a bit of a macho pr*ck (not on purpose at ALL.. just totally by accident, just because I naturally am), I am also a total soft, considerate guy. But (in answer to your question) yes, probably not as "more sensitive to women's issues" as some people would like to think (for instance, those women that Lex mentioned on that thread about the invitation which shockingly only invited females and ftms).

I do however stick up for women a lot if someone says something preposterous like "Women are all bitchy... it's how they communicate and bond..."
I was SO SHOCKED when I heard (several) people saying that.
I have tried living as a normal female before and I never bitched once!

I replied with... "That is not true! I have had a few female friends and none of them ever bitched about people! And also, actually, lots of my (male) friends are really bitchy, not even the gay ones... totally mega-straight ones...I think there's probably just some bitchy people in life, it's not a female-exclusive thing."

(Perhaps I'm naive though, and such a dumb guy that I have missed out on this whole alleged "bitching bonding" thing, and just been lucky enough to have nice, non-bitchy female friends. I doubt it though. I think it's a pretty wildly sweeping, inaccurate and nasty stereotype that "that's how women bond, through bitching" urgh!)

Oops, seem to have deviated from the point a little there, but it was just to show you that despite my "masculine" "failings" I am actually also a nice guy that believes in equality.

There's just part of me that cannot help secretly being a bit mean.
Like chuckling out loud at a bunch of stuff in Arena magazine that is blatantly really mean and cheeky to women.
*hangs head in shame again, and slinks off...*

I'm glad I'm not the only b**tard hanging 'bout here. I've realized in the last few months that I harbor a surprising degree of sexism, despite being such a feminist. I'm in this place right now where I've given into the masuline ideas of what is better. I have a hard time respecting girls who like to shop and gossip, and all that sort of thing. Like, anything that is stereotypically 'girly girl' I'm really having issues with lately, and I'm applying those stereotypes to all women. Thing is, I've realized it's really realted to my gender issues. I hate being put in that box, and so for me it's the inferior box, and right now I'm projecting a lot of that onto the women around me. That being said, some of what I'm feeling is just out and out sexism, and I'm trying to work through that.
As far as objectification goes, that I don't have a problem with, at least consciously. I grew up objectifying guys, and just figure that it's a natural way to be sexually attracted to someone. *laughs* It's really funny though, beacuse sometimes I'll check out a woman's breasts, and you know how they wear those shirts that just scream "LOOK AT ME HERE" across the chest? Well my eyes will get stuck, which is the point of the shirt, but I'll feel totally guilty because I've heard all my life about those cad guys who just stare at a woman's breasts all day.
So yes, I'm a cad too. Trying not to hate myself too much while I work through all this.

Particular women? Or what is identified as femininity in our culture?

I find it happening to me too, but mainly it's a scorn for what has been designated as the feminine by a male-oriented culture. So, it's not surprising that the things for which I find myself feeling contempt are the very things that are held in contempt by the culture in which I find myself.

The only time I feel this way about particular women is when they somehow exemplify all those things that are designated as "less good" by the culture, and then the culture's value system operates in such a way as to make certain that they are "less good."

I do admit to having a bit of misogyny towards particularly "girly" girls, and kind of automatically assume that they're tools of society. Then again, some are, and some aren't. It's like the difference between someone being polite and kind because that's what society and/or their religion told them to do and someone being genuinely polite and kind. I admire women who go outside of the social gender bounds a lot more, I guess.

Yeah, I know what you mean. There are so many phony nice people around here. It's part of the Mormon culture, I think.

And the girly girl thing... yeah. Usually if I see a group of 4 or 5 of them in their low-rise, flared jeans and spandex shirts, with bleach blond, straightened hair, all talking on their phones and not to each other, I get annoyed to the point where I want to hit something. But then, I get the same way when I see a group of really preppy guys doing the same thing. I just hate superficiality, and, let's face it: most of today's teenagers are the very definition of it.

:love: Yikes, forgive me for barging in here guys...but I have to say...reading this...if there was any doubt....

YOU GUYS ARE GUYS!:rolleyes:

omg, I can't believe I'm a girl!

Just listen here! I am an empowered girl so just...you know... *grrrrrr....grits teeth hoping to keep male bad boys at bay* :straightface:

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Originally Posted by kerrianna

YOU GUYS ARE GUYS!:rolleyes:

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No I'm not!

Oh wait!

Yes I am!

Yay!

:lol:

Even in some of the "passing tips" I've read online, it's as though acting like a gentleman is considered more difficult to pass than acting like a crude, nasty man. Sometimes I go overboard when I'm trying to act more assertive (like men are "supposed to") and actually end up being aggressive, because I feel as though I won't pass as well if I act courteous. Examples include taking up more space when I sit down on purpose, even if there really isn't room, or shoving my way past people to get out a door first instead of letting other people through head of me. It's as though I try to step so violently out of the "submissive" woman's role that I'm not really a man anymore, either. I try to be a gentleman, but it's almost as though treating women right jeopardizes my masculinity. Like Abraxas said,

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Almost as if I admit that women are exactly the same as men, it's a threat to my own masculinity. It's like... if women are as 'good' (don't jump me, it's just for lack of a better word) as men, then why would I have a problem with being one.

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It's definitely a silly notion, and it's really no different from chauvinistic men trying to protect their status in a patriarchal society. Sometimes I feel like the "worst of both worlds".

Hmmm... I don't let it affect me like that. (Pushing and not opening doors or whatever).
I'm still ridiculously polite... because that's just the kind of person I am.

I don't think that being trans should change how you are... because to me... being trans is about becoming your true self.

Bugger what other people think.. whether you should be this way, or that way, to be a man... just be the kind of man YOU are.

I didn't mean in my post that I was putting on any of that stuff.. that is just stuff I'm naturally like.

I know what you mean about sometimes having to act over the top "manly" in order to pass... but ultimately I wouldn't too much ... don't let being trans affect who you are. The natural you.

Well... that's what I think anyway.

p.s. Women are as "good" as men. They are just different in a few ways :happy:
(Mainly because of stuff that society has created.) Really, we're all just people.
It just comes down to which body shape/parts we prefer having/feel more comfortable with lol.

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Originally Posted by false_dichotomy

There's been a lot said about how transmen are often more sensitive to women's issues than GM's, having "been there" to a certain extent. But the fact is, and I'm not sure if anyone else can identify with this, that sometimes I find myself thinking in the stereoptyically sexist way we're told most men think. Looking at a woman as an object, or wondering how -she- got such a high position in whatever company. As soon as a catch myself thinking this way I feel awful, but it happens more often than I'd like to admit.

There are plenty of possible explainations for this. Maybe I feel that this is a part of being masculine, or that thinking/talking this way will protect my masculinity. Maybe it's similar to the way people who have been abused can sometimes speak excessively harshly about others who've been abused-- they try to distance themselves from a painful experience by "turning off" their emotions about it, and along with that turning off their empathy for fellow sufferers, acting like it never happened to them. Maybe I'm generalizing my disgust with my own body parts to all biological females, and using the "women are biologically inferior" idea as a catalyst for all the other sexist prejudices.

In any case, I'm pretty frustrated by the fact that I can't get these thoughts out of my head, or even my speech. I feel like I'm not that great a guy after all.

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Neil,
no honey others i think know these thoughts too. We-ll i do, but from the opposite angle perhaps. I have travelled through a masculine masquerade of full back, sports champ, college grad, professional, to what i felt inside of cheerleader, prom queen, wife and mother. Yet have discovered a cyncism regarding both genders. It is not the gender that matters as much as the individual!

I think the test for us who know or feel we are on the wrong side of the tracks, is not that we totally accept manhood or womanhood as it is. No! We will hold out for and espouse manhood and womanhod as it should be ... transmen and tgirls when being truly honest and cynical should be seen as Knights of the Round Table of Masculinity and Femininity !

My take on it is this: society still says women are 2nd class citizens. So why would anyone want to be a second class citizen when you could be a first class one? So we (women) should aspire to be more like men. And if you are a woman and you want to be more like a man (or be a man!) then you are headed in the right direction---society says. This goes not only for the way we dress but also the way we act. In other words, once we get out of the "first class/second class" mentality, we'll (all "T" people) will be better off.

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Originally Posted by Laurie909

My take on it is this: society still says women are 2nd class citizens. So why would anyone want to be a second class citizen when you could be a first class one? So we (women) should aspire to be more like men. And if you are a woman and you want to be more like a man (or be a man!) then you are headed in the right direction---society says. This goes not only for the way we dress but also the way we act. In other words, once we get out of the "first class/second class" mentality, we'll (all "T" people) will be better off.

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I agree in principle, but disagree on the most salient point. It is the complete reverse now honey ... males are still allowed to be first class businessmen but quite clearly are now socially and legally second class citizens! I care not a jot whether this is fair it is but the counter balance which will level off again.
One could argue that feminism has been so successful as a pressure group it has blown itself beyond expectations and right up it's own arse! I would contend it is not feminism any more, but a psuedo masculinity without any code of honour.

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Originally Posted by false_dichotomy

Sometimes I go overboard when I'm trying to act more assertive (like men are "supposed to") and actually end up being aggressive, because I feel as though I won't pass as well if I act courteous.

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For what it's worth, there's a fine line between being assertive and being aggressive -- but one men know very well in interacting with other men. Which one of those things guys learn as part being raised as boys. So it's not surprising if you're learning "social masculinity as a second language" it may feel like you're getting the hang of it.

Just as us CDs struggle at times with learning "social femininity as a second language."

When trying to act masculin, I try to go for the 'gentleman' angle. You know, holding dors for the ladies and such (not that I just want an excuse to look at them or anything :devil: ).

Actually the other day at the dinner table, something (I forget what) along the lines of gender diferences came up, and I said 'women, hu?' in that rollie-eye manner. Should have seen the look I got of my stepdad :heehee: (he hasn't been toled)

There are some parts in what you're all saying that I agree with, but most of it...oh the sexism. I hate sexism so much, whether it be towards women or men, it pisses me off. But some of the thoughts coming through in this thread, I can relate to and have thought. And when I've been trying to explain why I wanted to be a guy, and why I HATED (and still rather DISLIKE) being thought of and treated as a girl, I sound so DISGUSTINGLY sexist it makes me sick. Mostly because I use words that are too strong or extreme to explain very subtle thoughts and attitudes.
Anyway. Sexist stuff of mine.
Because of hitting puberty, HATING my chest and spending all of highschool in a group of teenage girls (eeew), I ended up HATING women and everything that related to them. Not cool. And that was basically what triggered my gender issues. Being surrounded by girls that I could not respect kind of killed my respect for women. And I had so many female friends, I saw the flaws in women and rarely the flaws in men. So I didn't think about them, and saw women as flawed. And oh gods, it sickens me to think about that, it's so twisted and warped.
So now I've fixed it. I don't hate or disrespect women. I don't hate or disrespect men. I hate and disrespect loathesome human beings. Mostly teenagers, hahaha. (Even though I still am one, eighTEEN.) And now I've gone back to my pre-puberty way of thinking; that boys and girls are just as good as each other, even if they're different. And often ignoring that they are.

I've been learning so much lately about respect -- respecting people's pronouns, respecting people's gender identity, respecting people's gender expression, respecting women, respecting men, respecting people who are both or neither... that I've started to feel almost like a sexist for not being physically attracted to women.

How weird is that?

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Originally Posted by Lex

There are some parts in what you're all saying that I agree with, but most of it...oh the sexism. I hate sexism so much, whether it be towards women or men, it pisses me off. But some of the thoughts coming through in this thread, I can relate to and have thought. And when I've been trying to explain why I wanted to be a guy, and why I HATED (and still rather DISLIKE) being thought of and treated as a girl, I sound so DISGUSTINGLY sexist it makes me sick. Mostly because I use words that are too strong or extreme to explain very subtle thoughts and attitudes.
Anyway. Sexist stuff of mine.
Because of hitting puberty, HATING my chest and spending all of highschool in a group of teenage girls (eeew), I ended up HATING women and everything that related to them. Not cool. And that was basically what triggered my gender issues. Being surrounded by girls that I could not respect kind of killed my respect for women. And I had so many female friends, I saw the flaws in women and rarely the flaws in men. So I didn't think about them, and saw women as flawed. And oh gods, it sickens me to think about that, it's so twisted and warped.
So now I've fixed it. I don't hate or disrespect women. I don't hate or disrespect men. I hate and disrespect loathesome human beings. Mostly teenagers, hahaha. (Even though I still am one, eighTEEN.) And now I've gone back to my pre-puberty way of thinking; that boys and girls are just as good as each other, even if they're different. And often ignoring that they are.

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That sounds a lot like the thought process I went through, Lex. o_O Right down to the disrespect of teenagers while still being one. Are you a mind flayer? <_<

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Are you a mind flayer? <_<

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A mind flayer? What's that?