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I'm wondering what everyone here thinks about feminism and sexism. What you think that means to Cds, SOs and men in general.
I recently heard a report mentioned that 70% of depictions of men in the media were negative, while also there is still inequality in equal pay which does suggest to me that there is still a lot of problems with this in society.
I think that my crossdressing helps me to appreciate women more than is typical. I specify the salaries of a lot of people and I can assure you that no woman has a lower salary than any man in our organization (for doing the same job). And women are offered the same opportunities as men. When it comes to equality in the workplace, a woman could not work for a more un-biased person. I encourage this same attitude with many of my colleagues in other firms. Women may still be a bit behind the curve when it comes to equal pay, but things are improving and I will continue to do what I can to help.
I wish feminism was about equality. Unfortunately it's not. It's kind of like how women enjoy a free country but are not required to serve in the military. Young men must sign up to die if needed for a draft. If they were truely about equality they would be fighting hard to require females to sign up for the selective service. Just go to http://www.sss.gov/ and look at the picture of people across the top of the page. Seems to me they need some diversity.Quote:
Originally Posted by battybattybats
Women may not get paid the same. But from experience I can tell you I was denied a job because I was not a women. This administrative job encouraged women and minorities to apply. Near the end of the interview the lady leaned forward and said, look.... were looking to create diversity here and I want you to understand that. I recieved a rejection letter via email less than 18 hours later.Quote:
I recently heard a report mentioned that 70% of depictions of men in the media were negative, while also there is still inequality in equal pay which does suggest to me that there is still a lot of problems with this in society.
Another example was an IT job I applied for. I was denied dispite my educataion and 5 years of experience because "they couldn't afford me" ( I would have taken any pay level ) They hired a women with no IT experience because they could pay her less I imagine. Of course less experience = less pay. But paying less was the key here. I suspect they felt a women would not want more pay or pursuit a "career" in IT.
So in this last case who really lost out? Ahh... gotta love over a year of unemployment.
Despite Affirmative Action and Diversity programs women are still treated unfairly in the workplace. There are a lot of advantages in being a woman only part time.
The inequality of pay between men and women is a complete myth. There have been a number of studies that have debunked that.
Once you control for the number of years experience and the type of jobs worked, women earn slightly *more* than men on average. Not less.
Well, this is one point we agree on. Unfortunately, a lot of people are not ready to see a woman in a war zone. Look at Pvt Piestewa (I went to basic with her) and PFC Lynch. Peopel freaked out over that whole situation. IF they were men, not a second glance would have been passed over them. :rolleyes: Gotta love a double standard :thumbsdn:Quote:
Originally Posted by noname
I can assure you though, if women would be able to sign up for the selective service, Id be the first one on the list. I've already served, and would be more then willin to serve again.
Nic
Yup I agree with Natalie, the pay inequality is a myth. It used to be true decades ago when women did not make up 50% of graduates and 50% of the workforce, but that is no longer the case.
The salary inequality gap is a classic piece of feminist propaganda repeated every year to give reason for their existence. People take it as fact because of this constant rehashing. The falsehood is created because of the use of statistics - namely looking at the annual salaries of men and women which does indeed show men earn 30% more than women, but the statistics also show men work 30% longer hours than women, so salaries based on an hourly basis is the same for men and women.
Further, most people work in environments which have fixed pay scales and with public and private watchdogs, and the threat of legal suits over discrimination, the idea that employers can get away with paying women 30% less is unrealistic. It does happen but in small numbers. How many women do you actually know who earn 30% less than a man for doing the same job?
Lastly the simple logic of supply and demand repudiates this idea. Why would I employ a man when I can get a woman to do the same job for 30% less? I would be more profitable and be more competitive and would grab more market share. If I employed women, then my competitors would have to do the same or else they would go out of business. So everyone would be employing women and men would be unemployed. The salaries of women would increase and the salaries of men would decrease until they reached parity.
This myth is a classic example of what feminism has been about for decades - the advancement of women over men. The overall negativity towards men you noted is also part and parcel of the propaganda that militant feminists have repeated ad nuseum since the 1970s and has only poisoned the relationships between men and women.
The quest for true equality for both genders got lost for a long time but is now slowly re-emerging because of the increasing liberalization of society and the trend towards individualism which inherently seeks equality.
Feminism was a revolution that started off so well but ultimately got hijacked by fundamentalists. It is also out-of-date because it does not address or concern itself with the problems of men and so is fundamentally sexist in nature. We have reached a stage in the development of our societies where it is wrong to only address issues of one gender and ignore the other. The longer feminism is the sole dominating voice on gender matters, the more skewed our society will become.
Feminism has done nothing to help MTF crossdressers because we are men so our needs and concerns are irrelevant. Worse, the feminist establishment is sexist to the core. They will not even admit MTF transsexuals into their house since they are not "real" women.
What is really needed is a new gender equality movement which covers everyone - male female and transgendered.
Yea, it's horrible isn't it.
We are such pathetic, sniveling, weak, stupid, opportunistic failures...........
You have to wonder why anyone would ever want to emulate us in the first place.
Kew
I have no problem with women in the work place. I have had some really great working relationships with women. BUT I had one who made me want to quit, after she repeatedly told my boss that I picked on her. She was just unwilling to do any work and pushed it off on to me. I refused to speak to her for years because of it.
LOL.Quote:
Originally Posted by KewTnCurvy GG
Louise.
How about some facts:
http://www.iwpr.org/States2004/index.htm
http://www.freeworldacademy.com/globalleader/gender.htm
http://www.ilo.org/public/german/reg...load/women.pdf
http://www.demos.org/inequality/facts.cfm
http://www.unfpa.org/swp/2005/pressk...cts_gender.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism
I have to agree with noname, from experience. I also have heard, from reliable sources, that 60% of university, and college students, are females. Sixty percent! I have noticed, more, and more doctors, lawyers, and veterinarians, are females, which, I don't have a big problem with, but, I have haeard a lady, who speaks, out, that says, that women on average, make almost the same, now. Also, I go to singles dances, and I have met a lot of people. The single women, I have found, mostly middle aged, are doing much better, than most single men. I heard on the radio, that single women outearn single men, from a reliable source. I, and a female friend of mine, both took a test, for a state job. I got a better score, than she did, but, she was hired. A number of years later, she was fired, because of attitude, laziness, inability, to do the job. I never could get on, have been under the poverty level, working poor, and at 52, have never owned a home, drive a 31 year old car. She got state disability, has an acre, and a house. I was rejected for social security disability, for a lifelong illness, I struggle with, each day. I DON'T HATE WOMEN! I LOVE THEM, BIGTIME, BIGTIME! I am turned on by a true lady, with savvy, who carries herself, with confidence, and poise. That is what I imitate, dressed up! But, I also, decry, the battle of the sexes, MADE WORSE, and with FALSE PROPAGANDA, by the DISINGENUOUS FEMINIST MOVEMENT, which really hates feminity, and is very sexist, causing greater inequality, in the long run, and hard feelings. LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF, GOOD ADVICE FOR MILITANT SEXISTs, ON EITHER SIDE.
It is true, and there is a reason for it. College costs are high, very high. I believe it is a combination of college being made more affordable to women through female only scholorships, and parents more apt to let their daugter live at home while going to school.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucille Tall
I believe they go on a point based system, so even though your score may have been higher, her being female gave her enough points to surpass you. It may also have been they needed to get a certain number of minority ( how GG's got minority status I'll never know ) employees and her score was good enough.Quote:
I, and a female friend of mine, both took a test, for a state job. I got a better score, than she did, but, she was hired.
It reminds me of a job interview I had for an ITS 4 ( Information Technology Specialist 4 ). One lady on the interview panel was an ITS5. During the interview I mentioned the man pages on unix based systems. She had no idea what I was talking about. For those not familiar with unix the man pages is the system manual ( hence man ) something a novice is taught to use. So here we have an ITS 5 who has no clue on something so elementry. I personally believe in hiring the most qualified person for the job, and I don't believe affirmative action accomplishes that.
A solution is not to attack women, but for men to speak up and address mens issues. Unfortunately when men do speak up, it generally falls on deaf ears. Why does it fall on deaf ears? Well, that is a whole nother subject.
zinnnnnng! :devil: Good one Kew! :thumbsup: Well, some people are asking for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by KewTnCurvy GG
Don't get me started....I have had this discussion for years and years with people who refuse to get some background information and empathy before they start bitchin'. I am so tired of it as I imagine a lot of others are.
I'll just say this: feminism rose as movement for a reason - a whole bunch of reasons actually. Some things have gotten better, many haven't. Oppression and inequality hurts everybody. We're not fully compassionate loving beings when we allow or excuse it.
Friends, try not allow yourself into media or peer-induced knee jerk reactions about things. Think them through and put yourself in other people's shoes. After all that is what we keep saying we like to do. :happy:
I agree with what you say. There are, as with all things, good and bad points. What I'm hearing here from other folks is conjecture, speculation and emotional rhetoric--not facts!Quote:
Originally Posted by kerrianna
*climbs off soapbox*
Kew
Well said, Kerrianna.
Putting all the emotions and equal pay ideas aside, I like to look at economic reality.
Although I think equal rights for women is a wonderful thing, I wonder if American society, would have been better off without it.
No, I'm not being sexist, just trying to look at things, with an open mind.
So, let's look at what has really happened.
We all know that women wear pants, but why? Is it really because they're "practical", or is it that women have been told, for decades, that they are not "sex objects"? Is this why today's women don't wear dresses, skirts, makeup, have their hair done, they don't want to be seen as attractive?
Another thought.
In the mid 1960's the average family had a working father and a wife who stayed home and took care of the children. Today, over 60% of children are "latch-key children", where both parents work and are not at home when the children get out of school.
When you had the husband working and the wife staying at home, "Joe's Shoe Store" charged $5.00 for a pair of shoes. Then wives started to work, and "Joe" said, "Hey, Bob and Mary Smith are making two incomes, so I'll charge $10.00 for a pair of shoes, they can afford it".
So, today it's not a choice or a right for a woman to work, but an economic necessity. Remember, that the candy bar that cost $0.05 in 1965 now costs $0.75, that's a 1500% increase, and someone has to pay for it.
The Social Security Benefit in 1965 was $95.00 and in 2005 was $930.00, an increase of 1000%, falling 500% behind the real cost of everyday expenses.
In 1965 a new Ford car, full-size, 4 door, V-8 engine, cost $2,000.00 or 20% of a workers $10,000.00 yearly income. Today a new car cost $30,000.00, so the same job would have to pay $150,000.00 a year to be 20% of their income. How many people do you know, who make at least $150K?
I think it's a heck of a price to pay, to be able to say, "I can wear pants, if I want to".
Crossdressers are trying to emulate feminists?:DQuote:
Originally Posted by KewTnCurvy GG
Many feminist "facts" have been debunked by feminists themsleves like Christina Hoff Sommers has been doing for the past 15 years.
Crossdresser, MtF, are trying to emulate women and women are the what feminism is predicated upon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Satrana
Christina Hoff Sommers is one woman who has spoken out about what has become known as "mainstream feminism". She is one person. However, I don't know how one can "debunk" facts. Facts are simply that.
Kew
Bottom line is I treat everyone equally regardless of stature, race, sex or beliefs. Seems to work out better for me in the long run. While these concepts may exist in the "real" world, they are more or less moot to me. I deal with everyone on an individual basis as a person. I find out too much is missed when I attempt to catagorize someone according to a "standard".
You're saying that we should look at women as sex objects?Quote:
Originally Posted by Brianna Lovely
And that women today do not wear dresses, skirts, makeup, have their hair done and do not want to be seen as attractive?
First of all, I do not want to be viewed as a sex object. What is desirable about being seen that way? Even in the men I choose to date, intelligence and who the person is ways far more in my mind as what attracts me to them than their looks (Yes, Vicky, I think you're adorable; I've said that many times!)
Yes, funny thing about time; the more things change the more they stay the same. Things have changed, always will. Change is the only constant in the world. Why is this so hard to grasp?Quote:
Originally Posted by Brianna Lovely
And latch-key children are attributed to women going to work? That's the only reason? Funny, I have several friends that one parent stays at home all the time.
Can you say oversimplistic, reductionist reasoning?Quote:
Originally Posted by Brianna Lovely
And what is the basic economic principle that determines the worth of an object?
Anyone? Supply and Demand. Economics 101 Thank you!
It was an economic necessity that I work as I was determined I would NEVER be dependent on ANYONE but myself. And that I needed to be able to be self-sufficient first and foremost.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brianna Lovely
And, so, am I to understand that it's a woman's lust to wear pants that has corrupted it all. ****ed it up for the world. Gee, if this doesn't sound like the opening of Pandora's Box cuz Eve ate the effing apple!
KEW
Cool your panties!
Yes, I like to keep things, simple.
But, I think there's a big difference in someone wanting to work and someone being "forced" to work.
I personaly don't think it's an advance, to have the average family carrying $15,000 in credit card debt.
And, being a very independant person myself, I agree a 100% with your freedom and independance, good for you.
:rolleyes: :bonk: :Pfft:
But most women do not define themselves as feminists precisely because of what the feminist movement became. Nor have I observed crossdressers wishing to emulate the behavior and thoughts of the feminist establishment.Quote:
Originally Posted by KewTnCurvy GG
What I do see are crossdressers wanting equal gender rights for all, with equal emphasis on male issues, which is not what feminism has been fighting for.
Sommers is one of many who have debunked inequal pay. She is one of the most prominent because her books revealed this and other myths and became international best sellers.
Facts are based on statistics which can be easily skewed. It is a fact that statistics based upon annual salaries show a gender gap, it is also a fact that statistics based upon hourly rates show no gender gap. Guess which one the feminist establishment decided to use and ignored the hours worked.
Since the facts can be used to support both sides of the argument, we have to turn to direct observation and common sense. I don't know of any company or any woman in my entire life who was paid less for doing the same job as a male colleague. That is my own observation. Secondly, it would be commercial and legal suicide for any company operating in today's highly competitive, highly regulated environment to pay men 30% more when they could and should hire women instead. This is complete nonsense and it does not happen except in isolated cases. But then I am sure we can find isolated cases of men being discriminated agaisnt in female managed companies.
Feminism still has important issues to pursue but there are *some* inequalities that disappered years ago but it is in their interests to continue flogging them because issues like inequal pay are the ones which keep women angry and motivated which in turn keeps the feminist movement alive.
If you want to get rid of gender bias, then you have to tackle the root cause namely how boys and girls are raised to alter the gender dynamics of future generations. This would help everybody including crossdressers.
This thread is not about feminism itself but how feminism has impacted upon crossdressers and their relationships. I cannot think of any direct benefit that crossdressers have obtained except for the general concept that it is good to challenge the status quo and break out of gender stereotypes, although this concept does not seem to have had much impact on men's lives or how women view men who challenge the gender stereotype.
Satrana, you must live in a different world than me. My experiences with female friends and colleagues is totally different.
They DO get paid less generally. They don't have the same opportunities. In some places in the world women are held in the same esteem as livestock. Things are better in the western world, but that is ONLY because women got together to do something about it and found male allies who agree. We agree with your fundamental principle - all should be equal - but it's only equal when it IS. Not when men have decided they've given enough ground. The same holds true with racism.
To change inequality the side with privelage MUST give up ground enough to level the field, not just make it look like they are doing something. That hasn't happened with women's rights, it hasn't happened with racial rights, it hasn't happened in the working sector (it did for awhile until multinationals realized there were a lot of desperate hungry people who would work for next to nothing).
Social movements happen because enough people who are being ground under finally get organised and try to change things. We're trying to do that in our TG world too. A common outcome is the movement makes some headway, some feathers are ruffled, some people feel bad, and then everyone says "what's all the fuss about? You got what you wanted? And look what we had to give up!"
A social movement may impact individuals directly and unfairly, but oppression does the same, and to a lot more individuals.
I'm going to stop here. I'm about to turn into a major bitch about this. It's a sore point I have. I for one am a feminist crossdresser and I am proud of it.
It's no wonder I want to be a girl. I just don't get guys some days. :straightface: