Have we gained or LOST ground?

Say what you will about the "progress" of CD being more publically accepted, but some decades ago it seemed to be a lot more prevalent in ways that would be unimaginable today. From the 1930's to the mid 1960's it seemed to be accepted in the mainstream---depending on the circumstances , or course.

Some are my own memories (late 50's-early 60's)
In colleges and even in highschools FRESHMEN were usually initiated by dressing the boys as girls, smearing lipstick on them and praiding them around campus(you can see this in old yearbooks, and I witnessed it myself in 2nd grade--in my consoladated school) On Halloween, nearly every boy I knew, and many I didnt dressed as girls for Halloween and Mardi Gras(Its not only in Louisianna) Some boys were often punished in school by having to wear a scarf and even lipstick. And a very BIG event put on by civic orginizations and even CHURCHES, to raise money were WOMANLESS WEDDINGS.----And this was in the bible belt! A lot of old members in my church still fondly recall them, which was, unfortunately, before my time.

What happened? Nowadays such things are often deemed unthinkable, frowned upon, and often with much hostility. Back then everyone got a laugh and it was considered good, clean fun. No one mentioned ANYTHING about it being associated with homosexuality or "perversions"

Of course, I realize that outside of the "accepted contexts" above, "Transvestisim" (and homosexuality) WERE concidered "perversions" of the worst kind---But with more aceptance of gays, and to a lesser extent, of CDs in recent times, the socially accepted CDing oppourtunities have nearly all dried up. Dressing up freshmen? Dressing on Halloween?(still done but not nearly as much) Girly punishment at school? Womanless weddings and beauty contests at CHURCH?---unthinkable! What happened?

Maybe the fun stuff has gone down because more people realize there really are more closeted crossdressers than anyone thought, and both the people playing at it and the ones (like me) who would die for excuse to get dressed up and go out are afraid of people thinking it's not a joke, but real.
At the same time, I think the number of people admitting they crossdress, to the public, to family members, or on this forum is way up. I can't imagine shopping and trying on clothes the way I do now, when I was in my 20's (back in the70's).

A high school pep rally, like those I experienced in the early 60s, where members of athletic teams came out dressed as girls with poorly applied lipstick while the students in the bleachers were howling with laughter hardly qualifies to me as "acceptance" of crossdressing.

Now that gays and CDs are out, there is more chance that someone will think someone else is actually queer if he exhibits this kind of behavior, and this makes homophobic people less likely to do it.

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Originally Posted by Marina Twelve

Say what you will about the "progress" of CD being more publically accepted, but some decades ago it seemed to be a lot more prevalent in ways that would be unimaginable today. . . .
. . .In colleges and even in highschools FRESHMEN were usually initiated by dressing the boys as girls, smearing lipstick on them and praiding them around campus . . .

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There's a HUGE difference between what you describe and our being accepted. What you describe is hazing, where an attempt was made to humiliate these guys by making them appear as either women or crossdressers. Great - a way to humiliate people is to make them look like us - NOT good. In all honesty, a sign of improvement in our society is that this is NOT done anymore.
Looking around this forum makes it clear that many of us spend a good deal of time out in public, regardless of if we "pass" or not. Most of us have been treated well and this shows progress.
There are a number of popular TV shows on now with prominent TG characters in them - "Dirty Sexy money" and another whos name I can't recall. While not saints or heros, the characters in both of these shows are NOT portrayed as freaks or serial killers - this is progress.

Yeah, back in the bad old days it was "a little" more common, but probably not in a positive way. It was often way over the top to the point of being drag and not crossdressing.

I've gone out to malls and regular restaurants all over and have never run into a problem. Sometimes I pass, sometimes not, sometimes I'm out as a T-girl and not even trying to pass! None of the above would have been thinkable back in the 70's and 80's in New England. I think things have progressed immensely for main stream america.

Say what you will about Jerry Springer and his ilk but they have gotten alot of issues exposed to the general public. Maybe in a bad light, but that got people talking. Most of the gurls that I know who have recently come out to family and spouces did not have to educate their people that much about CDing. They just had to explain the difference between CD, TG, and TS. How many people back in the day knew much about transexuals and sex changes? Not many.

I've gotta go with Kimberly and Bill on this one. Crossdressing in the mainstream has almost always been for purposes of ridicule, not so that men can let loose the woman inside of them, and perhaps feel normal as a woman for a while. Womanless weddings? Hey, everyone, let's go down to the church today. Dave's going to wear a wedding dress. We can all get a big laugh and donate money to whatever. Ha ha ha.

Whether men want to admit it or not, they still for the most part, whether they want to admit it or not, see women as lesser beings. When a woman wears clothing that could be construed as men's clothing, no one thinks ill of her. The female managers at the local grocery store near me wear neckties. I think they should be allowed to wear something more becomming to them as women, but still, no one really looks sideways at them. But when a man wears women's clothing, he is to be ridiculed. And what's that saying in football? Quarterbacks should wear skirts? Yeah, let's call him something less than a man by calling him a woman.

As to your point, Marina, I think that there has been a subtle backlash in society, that has resulted in a bit of an intense homophobia that encompasses crossdressers even though most aren't homosexual. We get tossed into that same category as perverts one and all.

You know that "magic wand" some here refer to once in a while? It would be nice to be able to use it on some of the more closed minded members of society once in a while. I'll even agree that what we do is "strange" by societal standards. But when I dress, I try to look like a normal woman, not an object of ridicule.

Sorry, I have to disagree with thre premise of the original poster. Being made to dress as a woman for the point of being ridiculed is not a form of acceptance of any kind. It was entertainment at the expense of the person beng ridiculed AND at the expense of women in general. What an absolutely horrible message to be sending to the female population... we punish our own sex by making them imitations of YOU! Thank God the practice is no longer encouraged.

From my perspective, it's getting much better, even if we do have a long ways to go. Before I came out last year I think I maybe saw one, maybe two MTF cross dressers my entire life (by that I mean out in public, not on TV). Now I know dozens from all walks of life, and I am indeed one of them. I credit the internet, increased education (slowly), and more general acceptance of alternative lifestyles.

You still see the cross dressing on college campuses. Harvard has the Hasty pudding award each year, where the winners are accompanied by men in drag, and my school in Fitchburg MA is hosting a Drag Show in March, But I have to agree with the others that there's a difference between hazing rituals and performances and what we T-Girls are trying to achieve by being out and about, whether we pass or not.

It might also be regional, I can only speak for what I see in my home area. :2c:

I dunno Marina, it seems that "we" cannot even come to agreement amongst ourselves as to what is "acceptable" and what is not. Personally, I don't want to be accepted as a crossdresser, that is a "thing". I want to be accepted as a person who chooses to express myself by dressing this way. Big difference between being a "person" and a "thing". Until we sort it out, we cannot expect others to.

Crossdressing is definitely more accepted today than at any point in my lifetime. I also remember the 50's and 60's when hazing was a big part of school life. The big difference between then and now is that hazing was a friendly way of ushering a freshman class into high school or a first year player to the high school team. You were made fun of and ridiculed in a fun and respectful way. You didn't have to fear for your life, break the law, consume alchohol or drugs. It was a simpler time. I remember Milton Berle, Red Skelton and others dressing as women while doing comedy routines. I don't remember any crossdressing in the Baptist church I attended.

Life for the closeted crossdresser is probably about the same now as it was 40 years ago other than the fact that it is easier to buy clothes and makeup anonomously on the internet and they realize they are not alone because of forums such as this one. For some of us who are not in the closet we are accepted by our friends and family. When my friends invite me to a party or barbeque or some other function, they always say, "Please show up. We don't care if you come as Glen or Glenda. We just want you to come."

We all strive for acceptance.........well, some of us hope or wish for it. I believe the only way to gain it is to expect it. To be open and honest and to gain it by being ourselves. We may be different, but we're not really that strange. We're still the same people.......just in different clothes. Truth be told, I haven't lost any friends because of my crossdressing. Personally, I am not 24/7 so I do believe there are times when it is not appropriate to dress. However, if I was 24/7, I do believe that I would be accepted at the functions which I choose not to crossdress at now.

In the 50's and 60's, I was a kid, and college kid. I was never gay, and back then, definitely NOT a CD. Back then, there were NO gays or CDs around. Or so I thot.

When I saw Milton Berle, Red Skelton, or any other men dressed like women, I just thot it was funny! I didn't think they were making fun of women, gays, or CDs. I thot they were making fun of themselves, and I still do today! And I think almost everyone else felt that way, too.

These days, it's NOT funny, because EVERYONE is offended by EVERYTHING!
The highschool kid here in Cal who was killed for wearing makeup is a good example.
RS

Personally, I think that we have lost ground. The only press that crossdressers get is when they commit a crime such as murder, sexual assault of a child, or other hideous crimes. You are probably wondering why the "good crossdressers" don't get any publicity. The answer is simple: Because 99 percent of them are in the closet. Until we become less closeted and take the step to get out in the world and be proud of who and what we are, we will always be treated poorly by society as a whole. It is sad but true. Gay people have advanced the cause by getting out there, being proud of who they are, and standing up for their rights. Most crossdresses don't have the courage to do the same because they always wait for other crossdressers to pave the road for them. If you keep on waiting and don't become part of the solution, then you are part of the problem and it will be a long wait.

Unfortunately, that is reality.

Jamie :hugs:

My earliest memories of anything CD was in the 80's. And honestly, it was Boy George. [What a way to remember CDism from back then]
Anyways, it didn't seem much an issue that he was CD. People liked his music or didn't like it but it had nothing to do with his looks.

I don't really think we have lost or gained any ground. If anything, probably lost cause look at the styles nowadays, very plain and normal. Straight boring hair, real short hair on men, it is like society is getting narrower and duller.

I think we all know the difference between a voluntary silliness, and outright cruelty. I don't enjoy watching any living being in an acutely uncomfortable situation, especially for the amusement of others. There are always extremes available in hazing rituals. Going through hazing hell to be accepted by a bunch of potentially sadistic low lifes doesn't seem like "moving up" to my way of thinking. I believe that things are better for male or female cd's now, based on the fact that we have educational message boards like this one. We are able to dispel a lot of myths, and still be very much individuals. We are not a "cookie cutter cult."

Marina, I think what you've described is more buffoonery than acceptance. It would seem to me that being made to wear feminine clothes or makeup is not the same as acceptance. I don't know very much about "Bible Belt" attitudes, toward crossdressing back in the day, but what they did could have been more for amusement than acceptance.

In my hometown back in the 60's and 70's some of the high schools had one day just before graduation, that they called "crossover day" where the senior boys dressed as girls and vice versa. It was an event designed to let off a little steam before graduation. It was strictly for amusement but I know some of the boys took it seriously enough to become t-girls for a day. In some schools, even the male teachers were involved, but the next day was business as usual.

The thing that makes me believe it was strictly for amusement is the fact that all the yearbook pictures of crossover day were of the students in the most outlandish outfits. The really passable ones never made it into the yearbook, so was it really acceptance? I seriously doubt it. Luv and :hugs: Jill

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Originally Posted by TGMarla

As to your point, Marina, I think that there has been a subtle backlash in society, that has resulted in a bit of an intense homophobia that encompasses crossdressers even though most aren't homosexual. We get tossed into that same category as perverts one and all.

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Actually THAT'S what I think has happened, myself. People were, in general, not aware of or at least ignored gays as late as the mid 60's. It was a taboo subject in "polite society" . To even bring up the subject was simply "not done", even in the context of socicially acceptable "fun CD" events.

Once we COULD mention and talk about homosexuality, THATS when the homophobia became rampant, the hostility even including the CDs, whether it was for fun or not.----Few folks wanted to be associated with "being gay" so the CD stuff was greatly curtailed.

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Originally Posted by Glenda

made fun of and ridiculed in a fun and respectful way

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You're kidding, right? I can recall many times being made fun of and ridiculed (for many "reasons") and there was never anything respectful about it. The essence of it is disrespect and subordination, period. :thumbsdn:

Hazing men by dressing them as women or applying makeup and then mocking and ridiculing them is inherently misogynistic. Those were not the good old days.

As for things being less tolerated today, many contemporary high schools have one day a year where people are allowed and even encouraged to wear clothing of the opposite sex. A lot of young people (emo, goth, etc.) have adopted an androgenous presentation. I've encountered young people who think that "crossdressing" is an archaic concept - the argument being that people are either trans or just playing with gender presentation, both of which are much more socially acceptable amongst young people today.

I have a friend (a trans girl) that gradually adopted a female hair style and starting wearing makeup and feminine clothing to school. She tells me all of her classmates have been fine with it. I really don't see that as being likely in 1955 - a "boy" having her hair styled in a trendy feminine fashion and wearing sexy girl clothes to school would have been treated badly back then, I suspect.

I also disagree that homosexuality was merely ignored back then. There are many historical accounts of abuse and discrimination of homosexual people - some quite gruesome.

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Originally Posted by Marina Twelve

Once we COULD mention and talk about homosexuality, THATS when the homophobia became rampant, the hostility even including the CDs, whether it was for fun or not.----Few folks wanted to be associated with "being gay" so the CD stuff was greatly curtailed.

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That's NOT why. Homophobia WAS rampant in the 50's & before- ask any person old enough to remember. You don't seem to get that other insulting elements in society, such as white people performing in black-face, also disappeared. It is because of enlightenment & sensitivity. Many of us have no desire to turn the clock back to a more ignorant time when people HAD TO hide.
Our society for far too long has sent the subtle message that women are inferior, that the WORST thing for a man would be to be seen as a woman. "Dress him up like a girl, HOW HUMILIATING!"

i dont think things have gone backwards - if you talkin about mens fasion its gone backwards a bit in the last 25 years but then it will never go anywhere until it starts to break boundaries down - most hetro men in britain i think are scared shitless of being seen too femine (people might think theyre gay !) as for cders i think once you have the confidence to go out very few people would critisize you because i guess your showing youve got the confidence to stick 2 fingers up to your masculinity and dont depend on it like most men do - i've said this before in my eyes masculinity only serves one purpose these days (too attract women) i just dont see anything good or exciting about being a macho guy maybe i did for about 2 years after i reached puberty but its such a boring excistance after that !

If crossdressing had been acceptable behavior back then it would not have been used as an initiation or hazing rite. Crossdressing is still not accepted by many people becaust they do not know or see any crossdressers. While there are many crossdressers almost all of us are hidden in the closet and do not participate in the mainstream.

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Originally Posted by Teresa Amina

You're kidding, right? I can recall many times being made fun of and ridiculed (for many "reasons") and there was never anything respectful about it. The essence of it is disrespect and subordination, period. :thumbsdn:

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Well, now I'll find out if I know how to use the quotes so many of you girls use in the messages. I hope it worked.

But, to address my statement about being made fun of.........Teresa, when I was a child I was never made fun of or ridiculed in a malicious manner. I just happened to grow up in an environment and a small town where everyone was pretty well tolerated if not respected. I did not have to deal with some of the things that so many on this forum, and in all other areas of life, had to deal with. I know that many, if not most, of us did not have that advantage. I did.

We learn so much from our parents, grandparents, relatives and friends. I suppose one of the most telling for me was at my grandfather's funeral a few years ago. He was a respected and loved man who was a friend with everyone he met. One of the statements made at his funeral was this..."I cannot remember Dee ever saying a bad word about anyone." I spent a part of every day with him from the day I was born until I left for college. I can't remember him ever criticizing anyone either. He taught me and the rest of my family those same values. I'm not the man he was, but I will never forget many of the lessons he taught me.

Not many of us were so lucky. So if I offend through ignorance, and I'm sure I do, I sincerely apologize. Being made fun of and ridiculed is most often done in a hurtful manner. Not always, but certainly most of the time.

The problem as I see it is one of subtlety. The non-transgendered community does not understand the spectrum of the Gay and Transgendered. Nor, do they wish to engage us, they seem to have a more of a out-of-site, out-of-mind attitude.

For example, we know the difference between a drag queen, a gender illusionist, or a comedian doing schtick. We know hazing when we see it. But, the outsiders are not going to delve into this granularity of knowledge.

We have diversity training at work, and have had presentations on Gay and Transgendered, but the people that show up to these non-required meetings aren't the ones that need to be there.

On top of this, is a major ironic situation: A lot of us, don't want to be noticed when we are out, and so the public would never know they've run into a TG person. So if they don't know we win! Yet, we loose because people don't see how benign our actions are.

It takes time, but how long do we have to wait? And, what can we do to educate people without foisting it upon them?

Yours Truly Tracy

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Originally Posted by TxKimberly

There's a HUGE difference between what you describe and our being accepted. What you describe is hazing, where an attempt was made to humiliate these guys by making them appear as either women or crossdressers. Great - a way to humiliate people is to make them look like us - NOT good. In all honesty, a sign of improvement in our society is that this is NOT done anymore.
Looking around this forum makes it clear that many of us spend a good deal of time out in public, regardless of if we "pass" or not. Most of us have been treated well and this shows progress.

There are a number of popular TV shows on now with prominent TG characters in them - "Dirty Sexy money" and another whos name I can't recall. While not saints or heros, the characters in both of these shows are NOT portrayed as freaks or serial killers - this is progress.

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Exactly, well put. Things are WAY better now, not even close.

Ugly Betty has a TS character, not a saint, as you said, but just another character.

Carol