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So it doesn't sound like there are any states that have laws against crossdressing.
I get the impression that some small towns still might have them and actually enforce them.
What's the easiest way to find out if a town has such laws? Do you have to contact the police department and/or city office?
It wouldn't be fun to be stopped by a police officer while dressed and discover it's illegal.
There maybe a few laws still on the books prohibiting crossdressing but none has been enforced for many years. If you are concerned call your local police department or if you are in a city call an LBGT organization or the ACLU.
Hi Dack-
Public laws are by definition public. You can simply contact your local police department or sheriff's office or county DA or whomever and ask. I suppose there is the remote possibility that some such antiquated state law or city ordinance could still be on the books but I can't really imagine a law enforcement officer citing someone for it, though I suppose it wouldn't be entirely outside the realm of possibility. Anyway, the simplest way to get your question answered is just to ask.
BTW, if the answer to your question turns out to be that there is such a law, please let me know so I can avoid where you live.
Hugs...Joni Marie
[SIZE=4]Very interesting question Dack, but would agree with T that most may not be enforced. [/SIZE]
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[SIZE=4]Funny how small towns carry laws that no one enforces but can still be used. [/SIZE]
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[SIZE=4]Maybe there really is a law against wearing white after labor day.... who knows????????? :D[/SIZE]
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[SIZE=4]sorry, not trying to make light of a question you take serious.. i would do the research of the area you plan to visit or pass through..[/SIZE]
If I found I lived in a locality with such a law, I'd go through the local odinances with a fine tooth comb, find every other sill restriction, then start a campaign to abolish all of them (to avoid suspiciously singling out the one cd law).
Frankly it's a dumb law to have on the books. If some hotshot cop tried to enforce it, perhaps to embarass the "perp," the town could find itself at the wrong end of a very big-- and expensive-- lawsuit. The ACLU would probably put some lawyers on it for free. I doubt most local governments have counsel that is quite so cheap.
Twenty years ago, I contacted the city police departments of several small towns in Washington. I was just trying to be sure that there were not laws in those places against crossdressing. None had such laws I was glad to find out.
I'm not saying that they don't exist anywhere, but I do know that I've been stopped by the Washington State Patrol a couple of times when I was dressed. I gave the officer in each case my male driver's license. The officer did his checking, etc., and since the stops were for equipment problems (headlight, then a tail-light), he gave me back my license and said, "Drive carefully, and get that light fixed."
That was it.
But that was the Washington State Patrol. There are small logging towns in Washington where I wouldn't feel so confident that a stop would end so easily. If I were going to one of those (for whatever reason, I don't know), I would check ahead of time.
I would also check with the state Attorney General's office about state-wide practices.
If anyone bothered to check, most of those old laws have a proviso. They make it illegal to crossdress "in the commission of a crime."
It's conceivable that they could apply such an ordinance, if they also had a law about "only gals in the female bathroom." But if you used that bathroom, if you got caught or arrested for it; it would be a very rare thing for a DA to take a case like that to Court. Would be an incredible waste of The Taxpayer's Money.
By all means go ahead and check up on your local laws, but I wouldn't get myself in a lather about it. The odds are really good that even if they have such laws, they haven't been enforced for years. Why would they choose to make an example out of you?
Peace and Love, Joanie
depends on the town,,,, I hear its not illegal to dress as a women as long as you dont have panties on,,if you wear male undies you not breaking the law,,,how stupid is that,, if you show them then thats a law breaker show whats the point,,, a small town here still has a law from 1700's saying illegal to do outdoor activitys like bike ride,jog on sunday,,,they dont enforce it at all but its still in the book just in case the cop wants you for a personal reason,,, something like that could be problematice,,they leave laws from the old days in so the cops have power over a law abiding citizen...
Stop by the State Police station enfemme.. If they don't arrest you then your good to go! Lol
Unless they are the fashion police. Then someone might deserve it! :heehee:Quote:
Originally Posted by Karren Hutton
Stacy can frisk me any time. I'll pass on getting cuffed by Clinton, though, he's so bitchy sometimes.
Hugs...Joni Marie
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sue_CD
Here's my take on this.
If there was a federal or state law against crossdressing, then the police would have to arrest everyone, male and female, who dresses in clothing of the opposite sex no matter if its full or partial.
Of course, you have the men who dress in women's clothes, but as many of you know women wear men's clothing for work, comfort, and pleasure. These would include sports jerseys (i.e. football, basketball, Hockey, Baseball, etc, etc.), suits and tuxes, shirts, pants, construction uniforms, etc, etc, etc.
If this law exists, it would probably contain hundreds of pages listing each individual item of clothing that is considered male specific and female specific, such as jewelry, shoes, hats, clothing, etc, etc, etc.
To me, a law like that could never be enforced because, as I said before, it would be impossible to arrest everyone who cross dress in one another's item of clothing because everyone does it.
I consider crossdressing an unofficial law because it's society, in general, who dictates it.
Hugs!
Ya know, if there really are any such laws or ordinances on the books somewhere, I would really be interested in hearing about them. Not just some sort of hearsay, like "I heard..." or "a friend of my cousin's brother-in-law's great uncle was arrested for crossdressing last year and spent 30 days in jail...".
My opinion is that no officer/deputy/constable/what-have-you would bother writing a citation for something so petty (if it is a crime somewhere it could only be a low level misdemeanor, not an arrestable offense), if he did write it no DA would prosecute and if somehow or other it did wind up in front of a magistrate or judge he would toss it out of court. Even small town cops or county deputies have way more to do these days than pursue such minor infractions, as do the courts. Just my two cents.
Hugs...Joni Marie
You are absolutely right on, Joann.
Don't go asking the police dept about this, they will find some other reason to act like asses
Don't ever ask them if anything is illegal. Talk to ACLU or someone
Gawd.. Where do you live? This is an innocent question, The police have more important things to do than hassle crossdressers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicole Erin
Well I think any law about crossdressing may be against the constitution isn't it say we have the right to persute of happiness. LOL
Kymmie
I don't think there are any laws against cross dressing but there is likely the same prejudice against anyone who displays a different lifestyle.. gays are getting more accepted all the time.. when is our turn???
Second that, Kelly. Thank you. Sheesh.
As I mentioned in my first post, public laws are public information. If for some reason you cannot bring yourself to ask a simple, anonymous question via a phone call to your local police, sheriff or DA, you can go online and find the answer, though it may take going through a little research and some of your time. For instance, having just moved from Oregon and being somewhat familiar with some laws of the state, I typed in Oregon Revised Statutes, got a Wiki link, found the statutes regarding public indecency and, as I already knew, no statutes regarding public (or private, for that matter) crossdressing. Anyone can do the same in whatever state they happen to live. The same goes for counties and municipalities, just call and ask or go online and do a little research. There are no laws that you can be held accountable for in a court of law that are not public knowledge.
Just for fun (I am easily amused), since I recently moved to Washington, I cruised their statutes. Having no idea of how they're laid out or titled, it still took me less then 3 minutes to find the statutes regarding public indecency and public nuisances. Nothing about crossdressing being illegal in the state of Washington.
Just for the record, this is not to say that you can't run afoul of some individual officer who is prejudiced against TG people and will try to find some way to hassle you. There are officers in every jurisdiction, hopefully a minority, who are ignorant, badge heavy, bigoted a-holes. A sad fact of life, unfortunately.
Hugs...Joni Marie
Quote:
Originally Posted by kellycan27
really dont think there re any laws against crossdressing. i have been stopped by police in 2 differnet chicago suburbs. both officers were professional. although the female officer did have me get out of the car so she could check out my outfit. hehe. police see it all, and a crossdresser wont even phase them.
There doesn't need to be a law against crossdressing for Law Enforcement to make your day a real challenge. There are lots of very vague laws concerning Public Indecency, Public Disorder, Obstructing Justice, False Information to Police, as well as the need to determine if you are any kind of a threat to commit a crime. Officers have a lot of discression if they want to get involved in your life and you are in a public place.
Now, most of them are too busy and/or just don't care enough to go out of their way to do any of that, but it doesn't mean they can't. My suggestion is to behave yourself, don't drink and drive and if you become the subject of an officers attention, cooperate as best you can. Have your id ready to hand over, even if you don't like the picture. The statue books are very thick and they can be very creative in the application of some of those laws. Even if it is thrown out at a later date, your world has become miserable when all you wanted was to enjoy a little time out.
If public crossdressing were against the law where I come from, I'd be serving three consecutive life sentences with no chance of parole.
Actually I think it reinforces an unnecessary climate of fear - it feels more like scaremongering, to me.. :sad:Quote:
Originally Posted by kellycan27
Many local city hall websites have a listing of most of the local laws. that doesn't count county and other municipal laws though
I ran a previous thread in which I tried to get people to contribute [U]specific[/U} laws about cross-dressing. If I recall correctly, no-one had any (or was interested enough to bother.) I did specifically disprove one supposed one that you can find hanging around the net in the "silly laws" lists. Someone did point to a specific US state in which it is apparently illegal to use the washroom opposite the marker on your driver's license, and yet (at least in part of the state) also illegal to use the washroom opposite of the way you are presenting, but there were no citations provided there.Quote:
Originally Posted by sterling12
I did find and cite a specific ordinance in a specific city that is still on the books and has to do with the use of washrooms at dance halls. It was, however, in a state that offered a number of state-wide protections, leaving it quite questionable as to whether the ordinance was enforceable.
When I see a situation like that, what I see is an opportunity for the city police to harass and even charge cross-dressers, possibly even jailing them: if the state attorney that your lawyer reaches then tells the city police "You have to withdraw that charge, the ordinance violates state law", then the police then release you, mouth an apology, and you are pretty helpless to do anything about the indignity unless you are upset enough about it that you have a lawyer in the area run "discovery" against the police training and operations manual to prove that the state had specifically made it clear that the ordinance was in conflict and needed to be taken off of the books.
Oh yes, I also pointed out at least one specific "anti-saggy-pants" law that discussion I read said was so vaguely worded as to make the law applicable to cross-dressing as well (I seem to recall it used that "appropriate to the sex" phrase rather than being gender-neutral in describing exactly what had to covered and what didn't have to be. Wouldn't want to stop the pretty young gals from wearing bikini bottoms, after-all....
Sad but true. I have heard a local cop tell me, to my face, that if they want to they could take anyone into custody, anytime, there's always something they kind find as grounds. It wasn't said as bragging or to incite fear, just as a matter of fact, which made it all the more chilling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarah Charles
I doubt it, but there might be laws against visibly stripping down or changing in your car or applying makeup while driving.
Not sure if I'd want to call up the police station. Contacting the ACLU or other organization is a good suggestion.
I did run web searches against my city website (and the adjacent city's website) -- I didn't find anything posted about crossdressing. Of course, it might be enveloped in a broader law such as causing public disorder, etc.
Yes...it seems like there's a double standard in society. A woman can dress completely like a man, and little is noticed. If a man wear's a dress, it really attracts attention.Quote:
Of course, you have the men who dress in women's clothes, but as many of you know women wear men's clothing for work, comfort, and pleasure. These would include sports jerseys (i.e. football, basketball, Hockey, Baseball, etc, etc.), suits and tuxes, shirts, pants, construction uniforms, etc, etc, etc.
I ran across an article about a man in India being arrested for crossdressing, with an actual law forbidding it. Of course, that's in India, and not in Europe / the United States. There are probably several countries with laws against crossdressing.Quote:
Ya know, if there really are any such laws or ordinances on the books somewhere, I would really be interested in hearing about them.
If there was such a law, the jails would be full of women wearing trousers/pants
In Utah the Legislature last year refused to allow a bill pass that included protection from eviction or from being fired from a job because a person is transgendered. Their story is "It's a slippery slope to where we are granting protected status to everyone when the laws are there already." However in this situation they just targeted transgendered people for discrimination without the protection or reasonable recourse. Can I call them idiots here or is that wrong?
So, even if there are no laws against crossdressing, you do it at your own peril.
[QUOTE .However in this situation they just targeted transgendered people for discrimination without the protection or reasonable recourse. Can I call them idiots here or is that wrong?
So, even if there are no laws against crossdressing, you do it at your own peril.[/QUOTE]
It is wrong to call them idiots. To do so is an insult to all the decent idiots in the world.
The end of the first week after my transition to 24/7 female I got stopped for speeding in my pretty outfit and wig.
My driver's license still said male and had my old male name on it. He made no comment whatsoever and treated me as he would anyone else. If he called me sir, I certainly couldn't object due to my ID. But I don't remember how he addressed me or if he used any pronoun.
This is Las Vegas. The police are fairly trans friendly, but one would not use ma'am for my girlfriend and said he was only going by the ID which was still M.
I well remember the days when I would have to hide whenever I saw a patrol car coming down the street. Then most of those laws were deleted from the books. I well remember a few times in the early seventies reading in the paper where someone was arrested for 'impersonating a woman'. Then things seemed to change and we now have a lot more freedom to express ourselves. I pray that its going to get even better yet in my lifetime.
Oh definitely.Quote:
Originally Posted by dackNot sure if I'd want to call up the police station. Contacting the ACLU or other organization is a good suggestion.
I did run web searches against my city website (and the adjacent city's website) -- I didn't find anything posted about crossdressing. Of course, it might be enveloped in a broader law such as causing public disorder, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by joann07
Yes...it seems like there's a double standard in society. A woman can dress completely like a man, and little is noticed. If a man wear's a dress, it really attracts attention.
Women seem to get away with a lot of things nowadays when it comes to wearing clothes, but for men it's like a one way street.
You can't go the other way because society says so.
Hugs!
I'm surprised everyone missed this one...
http://media.www.thenichollsworth.co...-2939242.shtml
Note, for history buffs, the cops who were harassing drag queens that started the Stonewall Riots were using anti-crossdressing laws as justification.
Marla
A lot depends on what you are doing, and where. It also may depend on how you are dressed. Hanging out in parks is not a good idea, because of familys and children in the area. Dressing like a hooker, and hanging out is not a good idea. Wearing a dress and heels, and no wig or makeup is not a good idea. Disorderly conduct can be whatever a cop says it is. A little common sense goes a long way.
the only time you may get trouble is if commit a crime then you may be
charged with wearing a disguise , so dont drink and drive
"not becoming to his or her sex." ?!?Quote:
Originally Posted by marla01
That is so vague and all-encompassing as to be completely useless. One could argue that a loose t-shirt, frumpy work pants, and a gardening smock are "not becoming" to the female sex, or that a 1970's style electric blue polyester leisure suit is "not becoming" to the male sex (and in the second case, you might be right).
I'm no lawyer, but it sounds pretty unconstitutional to me, and I'm sure all it would take would be one courageous test-case to knock the thing down.
And, for the record, I think cocktail dresses and high heels are VERY becoming to the male sex!
Amen! I've half a mind to go down there dressed en femme, but only partially and sit in a park until arrested.Quote:
Originally Posted by Veronica75
Dress unbecoming to his or her sex? *drool* I'd love to try that in court!
Already mentioned specifically in my earlier post in this thread, in which I summarized the results of an earlier thread I ran on this general topic in which I chased down some rumours and specific laws.Quote:
Originally Posted by marla01
Hetic.. i best think twice b4 i pop down the shops.. great.. one more thing to worry about.. (^^,)
With respect: I consider the above to be "scaremongering". I also consider saying "Tell absolutely no one!" (a paraphrase of another recent posting of yours) to be "scaremongering". I appreciate that perhaps at some time some bad things might have happened to you, but your posts tend to adopt these position as if they were truisms, that if one does not pass perfectly that one should hide deeply in the closet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Melinda G
If it is true that "Disorderly conduct can be whatever a cop says it is", then the lesson that we should learn from that is not that we should hide: the lesson we should learn from that is that we should employ our democratic rights (those of us who live in places that supposedly have rights) and fight to curtail the power of the police to make arbitrary "disorderly conduct" decisions. And if we aren't willing to do that, then the preventive lesson to be learned is not cross-dressing specific the preventive lesson is that since ANYTHING could be "disorderly conduct", that we aren't willing to struggle for our freedoms, that we should, everyone one of us, "pure male" or whatever our gender indication, stay home inside, doors locked and shades drawn and stereo barely audible at best -- because, after all, a cop might decide that the way we hold the watering can to sprinkle our flowers is "disorderly conduct". When anything might be arbitrarily deemed disorderly conduct and we aren't willing to push back against that, then what you've done is internalized the idea that everything is "disorderly conduct" and they just haven't gotten around to tossing you in jail for the way that everything you do is messed up.
If I recall correctly, I did get stopped once by a passing patrol car when I was walking down a side street in late dusk near where I live. I was new to the game, wearing an unfashionable dress, my lipstick was smeared, and I didn't have the hang of those shoes yet. My memory (not the greatest) is that one of the people on the street had reported me -- not for being a cross-dresser (or at least the police didn't mention anything about that), but because I was a stranger dressed a little more shabbily than would be typical for the neighbourhood, and the person had been concerned that I might be "casing" the neighbourhood. If there was any trans-phobia on the part of the neighbour, the police did not hint of it in any way: they were polite to me, explained clearly why they had stopped me, and upon hearing my explanation that No, I lived just a few streets over and was taking advantage of the nice weather to go for a walk, were completely satisfied. Before they left, they cautioned me to be a bit more careful walking alone at night on those streets, as the street lighting is weaker in the middle of the block and they had heard of random prowlers sometimes in the area, strangers from out of the area who come to our (better-off) neighbourhood and take advantage of "targets of opportunity" to mug people in the darker stretches.
In the entire encounter, if there was the slightest hint on the part of the police about my cross-dressing being unusual, it was (at most) in the subtle reminder that as a mid-sized woman in heels, that the muggers would probably perceive me as more vulnerable than the muggers would tend to perceive a guy with a typical guy swagger. No condemnation or repulsion at all: at most a gentle guideance on smart safety for when I was out as a female.
Now, if I were putting on "**** clothes" and going to hang around the area the prostitutes hang out, or putting on short party-dresses and no jacket and standing around on downtown street corners with a little clutch purse, not going anywhere, then Yes, of course I wouldn't be surprised if the police got the idea that I was there as a prostitute and stopped by to say something. But I have walked right by policemen (and women) while "gender-bending", obvious femme clothes but no wig and probably no makeup: if they glance at me at all (not uncommon, because police do routinely practice "situational awareness" and glance at people they pass to be sure there is no obvious threat) then they don't bother to look at me, break stride, or otherwise treat me any different from anyone else who is obviously just "going about their business". My wearing a skirt or a dress or pretty top or carrying a purse isn't a threat to anyone, and I'm not "moving strangely" -- if anything, they'd probably assess that I am less of a problem than the average person. Attitude: I act like I belong there, that my clothes are perfectly normal clothes, and, ergo, I do belong there. Except it isn't an "act" in the sense of a pretense: I'm comfortable being who I am, dressed as I am, and I just proceed normally, because it is normal for me.
It is unconstitutional to have a law against cross-dressing as it violates your rights to free speech which includes freedom of expression. Unless the town wants to deal with a lawsuit backed by the ACLU, it would be unwise for any officer to press charges should a town ordinance exist. If a cop gives you a hard time about why you are dressed, get their name and badge number and file a complaint with the agency.
Apparently still a law on the books in Pueblo, Colo. that requires CD's to "Wear men's underwear underneath their gear..." LOL!
First of all, nothing bad has ever happened to me[knock on wood], because I've always used common sense.Quote:
With respect: I consider the above to be "scaremongering". I also consider saying "Tell absolutely no one!" (a paraphrase of another recent posting of yours) to be "scaremongering". I appreciate that perhaps at some time some bad things might have happened to you, but your posts tend to adopt these position as if they were truisms, that if one does not pass perfectly that one should hide deeply in the closet.
If it is true that "Disorderly conduct can be whatever a cop says it is", then the lesson that we should learn from that is not that we should hide: the lesson we should learn from that is that we should employ our democratic rights (those of us who live in places that supposedly have rights) and fight to curtail the power of the police to make arbitrary "disorderly conduct" decisions. And if we aren't willing to do that, then the preventive lesson to be learned is not cross-dressing specific the preventive lesson is that since ANYTHING could be "disorderly conduct", that we aren't willing to struggle for our freedoms, that we should, everyone one of us, "pure male" or whatever our gender indication, stay home inside, doors locked and shades drawn and stereo barely audible at best -- because, after all, a cop might decide that the way we hold the watering can to sprinkle our flowers is "disorderly conduct". When anything might be arbitrarily deemed disorderly conduct and we aren't willing to push back against that, then what you've done is internalized the idea that everything is "disorderly conduct" and they just haven't gotten around to tossing you in jail for the way that everything you do is messed up.
Second, you go and fight the good fight, and get back to me on how it works out for you, and how much it costs in lawyer fees. If you go looking for trouble, you can usually find it.
My point was that a guy in heels and a dress, and no makeup or wig, is more likely to attract unwanted attention, than the same guy in heels, dress, makeup and a wig, who is at least making an effort to pass. I really feel that if someone is going to dress and go outside, they should at least make an effort to pass, and not simply try to test the limits.
Do a search on crossdressing law. There are many results both to protect, and, procecute crossdressers.
Suzy i could just see the femanists having a ball with that lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Suzy Harrison
I did, many years ago, get mail (snail mail) from a friend in BC Canada.. She stated that ( my memory aint the best but will try) "a friend of hers, dressed up as a woman with **** doing his makeup. said he was a good looking chick etc. walked into the local police station with a bunch of flowers and gave it to them to "pretty" up the place.."
She said the station was full of cops and all was fine till he started to leave. Thats when he was proposisioned by one cop. said he identified himself to the cop as a man. and the cops said "yeah i know"
he didnt get in any trouble but he did have to talk himself out of a date for that night lol
now i know the words are not exactly as she said as it was a long time ago.. but you get the drift :)
i remember cos she got busted for drunk in public, or what ever its called and she saw the flowers about 3 days later still there lol
I would soooooooooooooooo never do that.. not out here anyway, too many places to hide my corpse lol
:heehee:
Hmm...for the article linked to above - For the crossdressing portion of the law - I wonder if they plan on convicting any women for dressing like men.Quote:
I'm surprised everyone missed this one...
http://media.www.thenichollsworth.co...-2939242.shtml
Note, for history buffs, the cops who were harassing drag queens that started the Stonewall Riots were using anti-crossdressing laws as justification.
Marla
To a reasonable extent this sounds logical to me. No, in theory, we shouldn't have to be afraid, but if you crossdress in a time, place, and manner that is likely to get people stirred up, you're probably going to get accused of some other crime (disorderly conduct, etc).Quote:
A lot depends on what you are doing, and where. It also may depend on how you are dressed. Hanging out in parks is not a good idea, because of familys and children in the area. Dressing like a hooker, and hanging out is not a good idea. Wearing a dress and heels, and no wig or makeup is not a good idea. Disorderly conduct can be whatever a cop says it is. A little common sense goes a long way.
I live in the conservative south - it would seem logical that I could get complaints / get stopped if I were in a park while dressed.
Likewise overdressing and lingering or walking about areas you don't live could arouse suspicion.
I'd be curious though on how likely you are to be cited for wearing a dress/pantyhose/heels without a wig/makeup to make it more believeable.
Another question - While crossdressed, how would you know what stores you can visit without trouble? I understand busineses have a reasonable amount of freedom in asking people to leave / banning them.
They explicitly stated that the law was unneccssary because the group in question was already proteced by existing law and did not require seperate protection.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarah Charles
It's Louisiana government. I live ten minutes across the boarder, and have family all over Louisiana. There is no more inept, crooked, and down right useless government than Louisiana's. Mayor Wonka(I don't remember what his name is......the NOLA mayor that talked about the chocolate city(thus mayor Wonka)) was probably as competent as any of them. You would have to see it to believe what Louisiana will pull. Great food, fun culture, but the inmates are running the asylum...Quote:
Originally Posted by Veronica75
Like his politics or not(which I'm not a huge fan of but...), Bobby Jindal is probably the least corrupt person to hold a parish level or higher office in 50 years.