Trying to understand behavior

This is my first post but I've been lurking around for awhile. the comments on this board have really helped me out so far...thanks for that. Just found out about my BF's crossdressing a few months ago. It's just been over the past month or so that we've gotten to the point where he fully dresses, usually for the evening, more nights than not. I've gone above and beyond to be supportive and to try to understand.

Maybe this isn't a big deal, but it's bothering me alot. The other night we started arguing while he was dressed. Nothing major and not CD related. So, he gets up, stomps out of the room and eventually comes back dressed masculine. So, I ask him what's up and he says he can't argue with me dressed like that. which leads to a whole other thing because that was pretty much saying to me that it was just fine to be a girl unless you need to be a man to be in a stronger position and therefore superior to me. Which is so infuriating. And not fair. And I don 't get it. I can't just get up and change my clothes and manurisms and be in a more powerful position in an argument. So this is bothering me and it almost makes me not able to take the whole CD thing seriously.

Would appreciate anyone's thoughts...or am I making a big deal out of nothing??? Thanks

Hi Kelly!
First off, welcome to the forum. :hugs:
There are people here that are great help.

As for changing after or during an argument, been there done that. I can't say how your BF is feeling when that happens, I can only try to explain my reasons.
When Jean (my wife) and I would have a "disagreement", I used to change too. It had nothing to do with being superior to anyone. It had more to do with my own insecurities. All desires to be dressed just went away.
Personally, I think that women are superior, and I did not feel right arguing while dressed. Now, when we disagree, I feel the same no matter what I am wearing, and I don't change.
I am not sure if I am making any sense, but feeling "girly" is a happy place, and if I am not happy, then it is hard to be so.

Again, welcome. If you don't already know, there is a section here just for GGs. After you get ten posts, you can join them. We have great ladies here and I an positive that you can get good in formation and advise from them.

Hi Kelly and welcome.

His actions sound rather silly to me and make me wonder how far down the road to self-acceptance he is. Trying to develop a dual persona - placid girl and assertive male - sounds incredibly unhealthy to me. Very silly.

Kelly -

Even though my SO is supportive of my dresssing I realize that she is making an effort to do something that she didn't bank on when we got inviolved. Though she tells me it's not the case, I feel that my dressing is an imposition on "our" time and I try to acknowledge that.

There are certain things, andthe ocasional aruement is one of them, that make me feel very uncomfortable being dessed. It has nothing to do with the power position you perceive, at least in our case.

I could give you an entire page on the relative merits o feeling girly vs masculine and how we continue to work out that dynmic when I dress, but it's not directly applicable to anyone but us.

Welcome KellyV it is nice to see you here.
I would agree with Davida on that it may have nothing to do with wanting to be superior, it usually has more to do with feeling guilty for dressing and the feeling that " this would not be happening if i did not dress" and the slightest thing or wrong word can bring this on , it can take many years for a Cder to get past this stage and realise that not all things are Cd related .

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Originally Posted by joanne f

Welcome KellyV it is nice to see you here.
I would agree with Davida on that it may have nothing to do with wanting to be superior, it usually has more to do with feeling guilty for dressing and the feeling that " this would not be happening if i did not dress" and the slightest thing or wrong word can bring this on , it can take many years for a Cder to get past this stage and realise that not all things are Cd related .

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EXACTLY! Thanks Joanne!

Hi Kelly

And a warm welcome to the forum.

Unless he actually spoke the words that he felt more superior dressed as a male, then I would take it that the argument caused him to feel ashamed and out of place trying to make a point while he was dressed.
I would agree that his urge simple went away with the heavier air.

Most of us here still feel varying degrees of shame even with a supportive spouse, arguments or not.
We're just not supposed to be this way, you know. At least that's what we've been taught.

I guess I get that...but when you're on the other side of it it seems like a very immature move which felt like an attempt to be "superior". After he changed he did say that he didn't want to do this (dress) anymore if we were only going to argue. I told him that it had nothing to do with what he was wearing..and it didn't, it was an completely different matter. So do I walk on eggshells when he's dressed and how do I help him get past this "stage"? What does self acceptance look like? So much to learn. Sure wish I had a "happy place" to change in to. Thanks for the great insights.

Hi Kelly-

No, I don't think you're making a big deal out of nothing. Let me start by saying your boyfriend is very lucky to have someone like you in his life, someone who is willing to be accepting and make the effort to understand. It's not easy for you and it's not easy for him, you're a pretty special person.

As far as the going in to change clothes when you were arguing, yeah maybe it was some sort of gender role stereotyping thing, but perhaps more likely it was just that he has this tendency a lot of us tgirls have to feel a generalized guilt about our dressing and to feel, unconsciously, that this is the real source of a disagreement and that if we dress in our assigned gender role it will make it go away or remove a source of tension.

Out of curiosity, have you mentioned to him how the incident made you feel? Does he act in your day to day relationship as though he thinks men are superior somehow to women in general just by virtue of the fact that they're men?

Kelly, I wish you both the very best of luck, it's not an easy journey, hopefully it will make your relationship stronger.

Hugs...Joni Mari

Maybe it's just me, but, there is a lot in my guy life that is going poorly.
Dianne is in a "happy place" away from all that is wrong.
Arguing doesn't belong in a "happy place" and I'd have to go into guy mode if I went into an unhappy situation as Dianne.

Maybe it's just me.

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Originally Posted by Joni Marie Cruz

Out of curiosity, have you mentioned to him how the incident made you feel? Does he act in your day to day relationship as though he thinks men are superior somehow to women in general just by virtue of the fact that they're men?

Hugs...Joni Mari

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thanks so much Joni. I did tell him right away how it made me feel...belittled, inferior...that it was OK to emulate me and my gender until there was a real issue to deal with and then it felt like he had to uneven the playing filed. He did say that it was nothing like that but I think any girl in my position would have felt the same way.

I don't think that he feels men are superior to women but he is a big sports guy and can be a bit of a macho poser around other men or his sons, but in general no. Geez, there are so many places you can go trying to figure things out. I do understand the guilt aspect but it seems iike CDing can be such a self centered thing sometimes that he forgets to consider how I might perceive things or feel, it seems like it's all about his fragile feeling. In general the CDing has brought us much closer and I feel very lucky that he trusts me enough to open up this side to me but that incident made me feel like it's just something he can step out of any time. I do get the guilt thing tho...thanks for the great advice.

True self acceptance amounts to being comfortable in one's own skin regardless of what one looks like. Unfortunately, some folks never get to that point in their life and seem to need an excuse to act one way or the other. The goal should be to develop as a full spectrum person capable of being empathetic towards others. Only when one realizes it's really about getting in touch with and managing the feelings and not what they are wearing will they really be able to do this.:)

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Originally Posted by Denise Rhodes

Only when one realizes it's really about getting in touch with and managing the feelings and not what they are wearing will they really be able to do this.:)

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How do you get to that place when you are torn between 2 genders?

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Originally Posted by KellyV GG

How do you get to that place when you are torn between 2 genders?

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Time and patience!!! If your SO feels more secure in male form when arguing or whatever, just let it be. It will take time to achieve the balance you're both looking for. :)

What is hard for non-crossdressers or GGs to understand is that crossdressing in general is repressed and causes a shameful internalized feelings. I'm sure he felt very vulnerable in the argument (discussion) due to his internalized lower self esteme. This site is invaluable in helping us crossdressers realise that crossdressing is NOT shamefull or wrong. It is just a part of our being for what ever reason. Don't take his changing back to male mode as his desire to feel superior to you. Its truely not like that at all, but more of his feeling totally vulnerable and small because of his insecurity over the crossdressing.

Good luck to you both.
Paula

Hi Kelly-

I get what you're saying, lots of times guys will "macho-up" in an argument, lord knows I've done it plenty of times, and being in a skirt makes it tough to do that. It seems to be that people should be able to have a disagreement and argue without gender being part of it. Hell, relationships are hard enough without transgenderism being thrown in on top of it.

As far as the sports and the "quien es mas macho" stuff, a lot of times, at least I think so (go ahead, flame me, I have my asbestos panties on, they're itchy but they work) it's a cover for our feminine feelings. We learn to disguise ourselves around other men and so get into sports or macho occupations and so on. Not to say that women can't be seriously into sports or in those sorts of occupations, too.

Anyway, you are so right, it's mind boggling how many avenues this aspect of human behavior can take you. Books have been written.<lol> Give him his chance to work through it, which it so sounds like you are. It's even worse in some ways to be given freedom to be yourself if you've been closeted up for years and learning how to deal with that freedom is kind of tough.

Hugs...Joni Mari

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Originally Posted by KellyV GG

He did say that it was nothing like that but I think any girl in my position would have felt the same way.

I don't think that he feels men are superior to women but he is a big sports guy and can be a bit of a macho poser around other men or his sons, but in general no. Geez, there are so many places you can go trying to figure things out..

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Originally Posted by Joni Marie Cruz

It's even worse in some ways to be given freedom to be yourself if you've been closeted up for years and learning how to deal with that freedom is kind of tough.

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Argggghhhh...what does that mean????? Geeeeeeeezzzz....I have given him 1000% freedom...it's all about him getting in touch with her right now in our lives. Sorry to get off topic but...what's the answer???? Slow him down to give him a chance to process his feelings or just take the hinges off the closet door like I have and let him go wild. Really it's not my place to determine that, it's his life, his issue to process but I'm trying....it's impossible to figure out. At least I can borrow his lipstick...looking for upsides.

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Originally Posted by KellyV GG

How do you get to that place when you are torn between 2 genders?

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Well, I never said it was easy Kelly. It took me over 50 years to get to that place by myself. Some people never get to that point and when you have someone who cares and you can grow together, it helps. The important thing is to take the time and iniative to really understand the feelings, accept them and make them our own. In this way we can use them to work for us and they become a choice for self expression rather than a compulsion that must be obeyed.:)

Kelly ............ I can hear your frustration at being unable to understand what is going on ............ been there done that one with my Ex .......... will go find a link in a min and then re.edit this post okay :)

but sometimes our knowing really does throw them into a loop .......... once they had to have "this thing" under control, now they think they have the freedom to do waht they want and for some of them it brings an even bigger turmoil ............ I know it is not easy to understand, but it just is.

For you take a breath, sit down, read a book, watch Tele, listen to music ......... in other words relax, take some time out to enjoy doing what you used to do before you found out ........... I know it is hard when you are where u are with cding .......... I did the headless chicken bit 4 years ago, and yes I was as supporting as you are and yes I was as confused as you are with the whole reaction from my cder as you are with yours ........... damn fellas they remain confusing whatever they are wearing;)


This thread here is the one I was saying about ............ [SIZE="4"]? FOR CDR's ONLY PLEASE[/SIZE] I hope this helps you to understand a little :)

Years ago my first wife and I got into a heated argument. I had been dressing in front of her four seven yrs and she always told me she had no problem with it. However during this argument she suddenly called me a queer. I quickly changed clothes, and the next day burned every fem thing I owned. "MY FIRST PURGE" She apologised over and over, begged me to forgive and forget, even went out 2 days later and bought me a new skirt and top. I could not let it go, From that day on I could not look her in the face. Four months later I walked out on her 'the straw that broke the camels back" I guess. Anyway to this day if my wife and I argue I feel the need to change. I'm terrified that something similar may happen and I don't know how I would react

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Originally Posted by KellyV GG

Argggghhhh...what does that mean????? Geeeeeeeezzzz....I have given him 1000% freedom...it's all about him getting in touch with her right now in our lives. Sorry to get off topic but...what's the answer???? Slow him down to give him a chance to process his feelings or just take the hinges off the closet door like I have and let him go wild. Really it's not my place to determine that, it's his life, his issue to process but I'm trying....it's impossible to figure out. At least I can borrow his lipstick...looking for upsides.

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What my SO did was remind me, as needed, that it was all about balance; her needs, my needs, our needs. Like a lot of CDs dressing for me is an escape. I'll always remain a straight male, regardless of my attire.

But for some it isn't about the dressing, it's about all of the dynamics that go with being transgendered. This is a long, and touchy topic, even here, but it would likely be a good idea for you and your boyfriend to talk about his feelings and motviations. It's not an easy discussion, and it's usually an ongoing one, but like anything else in a relationship, communications is the key to success.

Hi Again Kelly-

Girl, if I knew that answer I'd write a book. Honestly, I don't know nor do I think anyone else really knows, it's up to your boyfriend how he handles it and what sort of person he is. He must be a good guy or he wouldn't someone as caring as you in his life so there's that to start with.

As you mentioned a lot of our behavior, girls like us, tgirls, can be so very self centered and we don't even realize it until someone smacks us in the head. Being able to talk to him about your feelings and how all this is affecting you and your relationship is what's going to determine where this all ends up. From your posts you seem a pretty intelligent and forthright and articulate woman who knows how to say what she means, just talk to him (I keep wanting to say her, but it makes it a bit confusing sometimes) and make sure he knows he can talk to you. It's a process.

BTW, is he a member here? Maybe he should be. Just a thought.

Hugs...Joni Mari

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Originally Posted by KellyV GG

Argggghhhh...what does that mean????? Geeeeeeeezzzz....I have given him 1000% freedom...it's all about him getting in touch with her right now in our lives. Sorry to get off topic but...what's the answer???? Slow him down to give him a chance to process his feelings or just take the hinges off the closet door like I have let him go wild. Really it's not my place to determine that, it's his life, his issue to process but I'm trying....it's impossible to figure out.

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Hi Kelly!
Glad you found us. Just keep one thing in mind, you have known for a couple of months, your BF has been going throught all of this, single handed, for years. It takes a little time to learn to share something that has been such a big secret all of your life. I know it seems like things have been like this for a long time, but really it's just been the blink of an eye. I told my wife some thirty years ago. It took a long time for us to adjust to the world as we kow it know it now. But boy was it worth it, to put in the time, I don't know a lot of couples that are as close as we are. and while we wear different sizes we do share Jewery and make up, as well as sharing fashion tips. We love to watch chick flix together as well as shopping, having a husband and a girl friend in the house does have its advantages! Give him time, and take time for yourself, talk about how you feel and make him talk about how he feels, and if he can,t do it in a dress, make him do it in pants, but do it.
Tina B.

I have found that guessing what my SO, or ANY female I'm with is thinking, is USUALLY a mistake!
If I REALLY want to know, I ASK THEM!

It sounds like you've already done that! He may be either, not feeling like answering, or DOESN'T know HOW TO! Us closet CDs often don't HAVE to deal with these issues. Because we dress alone, in private!

However, I'm NOT going to try and guess his thots and feelings. And I don't think u should try either.

If you're comfortable with this idea, it may help u both!
Invite his fem side over for drinks. Without being confrontational, slowly bring "her" out with questions you've organized in advance. If u can make him/her relax, feelings about why he dresses, and what he enjoys about it, may come out.

One disclaimer: Sex is an important part of MY dressing! I find that embarrassing and would have a hard time discussing that with a GG I cared about! He may feel the same!:eek:

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Originally Posted by docrobbysherry

If you're comfortable with this idea, it may help u both!
Invite his fem side over for drinks. Without being confrontational, slowly bring "her" out with questions you've organized in advance. If u can make him/her relax, feelings about why he dresses, and what he enjoys about it, may come out.
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What are the right questions to ask without sounding like I'm accusing him of something and without him getting defensive? It's very uncomfortable even going there..I'm not sure that he knows how he feels and I don't want to push it but I know that we REALLY need to talk about it.....thanks!

Hi Kelly and welcome to our thoughtful family!

Everyone of us who carries two genders around inside of us treats the relationship between those two genders a bit differently. Hmm, "treats" is the wrong word: it's just the fact of our internal wiring that the two genders have a relationship.

For me, if there is any stress in my life, my femme side, Tina, just can't handle it. Being Tina takes everything I have, emotionally. Also, Tina has evolved to think "as a woman". My wife has worked with us (Tina and me) to understand the fundamental differences that exist in the socialization of girls and boys as they grow up. At this point Tina is socialized enough to be a different entity from the male me. Thus, if my wife and I need to discuss important issues in our lives (including having a disagreement), Tina has to give way to my male self. Not only can't Tina handle the stress, but she is not the person who should be discussing important issues that belong in the husband/wife realm.

Having said that, when things aren't stressful, Tina and my wife do discuss issues about my male self as if I were a third person. Well, actually I am a third person, and that is really the whole thing: We are three people. My wife and I can discuss things about Tina (and often do), and Tina and she can discuss things about me.

That, I believe, is the kind of situation you just experienced. His personas were on overload, and the issue, he probably felt, involved his male side. Thus, he couldn't emotionally deal with it unless he was firmly his male self. It sounds that like me, he is one person with two perspectives on life. Also, it seems that he is so committed to you that he would not allow anyone else, even his feminine side, to get between the two of you when an important discussion had to happen. I view that as a strong commitment to your relationship.

I hope this helps!

tina and him!

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Originally Posted by suchacutie

Also, it seems that he is so committed to you that he would not allow anyone else, even his feminine side, to get between the two of you when an important discussion had to happen. I view that as a strong commitment to your relationship.

I hope this helps!

tina and him!

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Wow Tina...thanks. That helps alot!!!!! Kelly

One thing I forgot to stress: As has been said in previous posts in this thread, you can have a conversation with his femme self about his male self. In fact, it can be quite liberating for him to partake in this kind of discussion.

You might start by having discussion about her with him. Use good stuff. Ask him what her opinion might be about something. "What does she think about that". Then when it's she you're talking to, ask her about him. How does he feel about (politics, religion, the sky, whatever :) ). If he is used to having these discussions about his "other" gender, you can open any pandora's box with the assurance that he can separate one gender from the other.

Enjoy them!

tina

I'm not sure that his changing was to be more superior than you but I guess anything is possible. My wife and I have had a fight when I was dressed before over an non-cd issue and I did the same thing. I think I actually changed to punish myself in some way.

I am also very happy and fun loving when I'm dressed and I don't want to bring anger or pain or any negative feelings into my dressing. I guess that might mean that dressing is a form of escape from problems...I don't know.

I wouldn't read too much into that one event. If it does become a habit then it might be an issue but I bet that he was a lot like me and just didn't feel comfortable combining the two.

Kisses,

Allie

Welcome to the forums, Kelly.

I'm not sure that I can shed any more light on this subject other than to affirm what some of the other girls are saying.

It took me 23 years to accept who I am and come out to my GF, and even then it took months not to feel guilty about being a girl when she came home from work. Even though she was totally amazing and took it all in stride (almost better than I did making the revelation) I still felt this guilt and uneasiness inside of me.

Your BF's quick change into boy mode was probably due to insecurities inside himself. It is hard to be in conflict when you have another monkey sitting on your back. Rather than be in a power play, he was more likely trying to rid himself of internal conflict so that he could deal with the more pressing, important issue of resolving the conflict with you.

The only thing that will make him more confident with who he is is patience. Especially if you guys have just begun this journey. Remember that telling you was a HUGE thing for him, and although you may be totally cool with it, he may not be.

I highly recommend the book "My Husband Betty" - you can get it on Amazon. It's written from the point of view of a GG married to a cross dresser and what they had to deal with. It may help you discover what questions you need to ask and how you can be supportive. He may not even know.

And reaching out to us was a good step. You may feel like what you are going through is strange, but it's not to us! For all of your questions, one of us has been through it!

Let me know if I can help in ANY way!

Hugs,
Cindy

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Originally Posted by KellyV GG

So, he gets up, stomps out of the room and eventually comes back dressed masculine. So, I ask him what's up and he says he can't argue with me dressed like that. which leads to a whole other thing because that was pretty much saying to me that it was just fine to be a girl unless you need to be a man to be in a stronger position and therefore superior to me.

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Wow. Very clever girl you are. Based on this and a couple of other posts, I would suggest that he would be outmatched in an argument with you.

I know a lot of the ladies here will disagree, but I think you hit the nail right on the head. He is NOT comfortable with who he is, evidenced by the macho act with his buddies that you described.

When the "argument" starts, the makeup and wig has to come off because "she" isn't strong enough to deal with you without resorting to what "he" can bring to the fight. Because at the root of this is the perception of what you were doing. It's telling that you say "it was no big deal" and then "he stomps out of the room". Those of us who are "masculine challenged" like to discuss things until we reach a mutual understanding but the testosterone laden among us like to stomp and yell.

The other component is the sheer intimidation factor. Aggressive men have always kinda put me off balance and I totally understand your offense at him changing to macho mode just to, in his mind, finish an argument.

My heart goes out to both of you, and my words of advice would be the same to either of you; Hug her.

-Misty

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Originally Posted by KellyV GG

thanks so much Joni. I did tell him right away how it made me feel...belittled, inferior...that it was OK to emulate me and my gender until there was a real issue to deal with and then it felt like he had to uneven the playing filed. He did say that it was nothing like that but I think any girl in my position would have felt the same way.

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I'm not a girl, but not a big guy either and I think I can imagine some of what you would have felt. This is about how you felt, and if my experience with women is anything to go by, you were right on the money as to assessing why it happened, although he probably didn't do in consciously.

If he made you feel like that, then it was the wrong way to do, no matter what his conscious or unconscious intentions.

There are two types of very male behaviour I notice in stories on this forum, when concerning crossdressing husbands:
- Those that think that if their spouse isn't stopping them, she must be accepting and thus end up going too fast.
- Those that go after crossdressing like other men go after model trains. Men often are much more obsessive in their behaviour.

You have to remind yourself that under that dress and make-up, there still is a body with loads of testosterone and a male upbringing.
Men and women solve things differently, my experience is that women want to talk, and men just do things.
I don't know you or him, so I don't know you live and communicate with each other. But my advice to both sides usually is for the man to try and talk and listen more, and the woman to try and assert herself more.
For you that would mean that on the one hand you support him, but on the other hand you apply the breaks when things get outside your comfort zone. Not just in words, but also in deeds. For example, put his woman clothes in a closet where you have the key. Put yourself in control and in a position of power.

As in defence of us guys, most of us are not very good at putting our impulses and emotions into words and we will often react defensively and in denial when the deeper layers of our psyche are laid bare. Men are not taught to handle emotions and understand themselves.

I think much can be gained by you being in a position of power, and he learning to talk and communicate, instead of using body language. I agree with the poster above me that it sounds that he is in conflict with himself and has not come to know who he really is. Your story tells a of a lot of posturing, which is all façade and make believe. Try to make him open up to you either in boy or girl mode and slowly peel away the layers until the boy and girl become the same person.*

Just my 2 Euro-cents. Others here also have good opinions.

*) I'm not a Psychiatrist, you might want to consider professional councelling at some point. It seems others in this thread actually handle the whole thing by having very separate boy and girl persona, I personally found that I only started to feel whole after they merged.

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Originally Posted by Gerard

...I agree with the poster above me

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Um hello ...Gerard?

My name is Misty, nice to meet you, ;-)

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Originally Posted by Misty is Kindafem

Um hello ...Gerard?

My name is Misty, nice to meet you, ;-)

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Sorry Misty, but I had forgotten your name, and if I'd looked it up I would have lost my train of thought.

Now back to the topic at hand. I just want to add that I want to applaud KellyV for coming here. I find that women often make more of an effort to understand someone else than men.
Next to that, they seem to be better at it, or at least at expressing it in words. I've had women angry at me that seemed to read my every thought, while their intentions and thoughts were a total enigma to me. I think many women have better developed social skills because they can't muscle their way out.

It might help if he came here too, and tried to talk. I know it helped me.

Hi Kelly and welcome:

I believe that his behavior had nothing to do with him wanting to be superior but to disassociate or disconect the warmth, happy, comfortable feeling of being in women clothes with the argument taking place.

Do I make sense? While in female they're peaceful or in a calm mood, wanting to be polite and soft, enjoying themselves. To be arguing in that heaven state, ruins the moment.

Just like we in a spa, having this great massage but arguing with your next bed partner...doesn't go together.

Hi Kelly, welcome! :hugs:

Thank you so much for bringing this up. I've been here for awhile and this is the first time I've seen this topic discussed. I haven't even experienced it with my own BF, so I'm glad to be reading all the responses. I do have some thoughts about a few things you said, and I hope they help:

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Originally Posted by KellyV GG

Sure wish I had a "happy place" to change in to.

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You and I are not transgendered, so we don't have that side of us that feels precarious and vulnerable where we don't know how to process certain emotions. So there is no need for us to escape out of our gender if we run into a situation that we simply don't know how to deal with. As the other TGs said here, it will take time for your BF to reach the same level of confidence with his femme side as he feels with his guy side.

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Originally Posted by KellyV GG

that it was OK to emulate me and my gender until there was a real issue to deal with

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Your BF is not trying to emulate us. He does want to learn from us because he hasn't been socialized to know how to express his femme self, but he really is trying to be herself.

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Originally Posted by Joni Marie Cruz

It's even worse in some ways to be given freedom to be yourself if you've been closeted up for years and learning how to deal with that freedom is kind of tough.

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Joni Marie, hope you won't mind my take on what you said, but to explain to Kelly, I understand you to mean that it is much easier learning how to process feelings as a woman if you've had the freedom to do so all your life, than it is to learn how to do this all at once, when you suddenly have or give yourself that freedom.

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Originally Posted by KellyV GG

What are the right questions to ask without sounding like I'm accusing him of something and without him getting defensive? It's very uncomfortable even going there..I'm not sure that he knows how he feels and I don't want to push it but I know that we REALLY need to talk about it.....thanks!

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It's not so much the questions as the frame of mind you both are in when you discuss things. It is best to remain objective and positive, as if she is the teacher and you are trying to learn. Talking about the fundamentals of being femme is hard and your BF might not have all the answers. He hasn't needed to define it in words for himself. So asking questions like "what makes you want to dress" is like asking someone "why do you like apples better than oranges".

You could ask her his history; when she began, how she felt while reassuring her that you understand the concept of having felt scared or ashamed when she was younger. You could ask her if she or he feels sad for not being able to do certain things, or maybe sad that she couldn't show herself to her parents. You could ask her about one of her best experiences while dressed. And ask her what her dreams are, what she would like to do, all the time keeping an open, not judgmental attitude. And lots of cuddling. :) And the converstation will go from there! :hugs:

I know that i put that it can be linked to a type of guilt when a Cder suddenly takes off the clothes that they are in for no apparent reason but some how just guilt does not quite seam the right word so i am going to add shame to mix in with guilt , it is a sort of a mixture of both , you feel guilty and shameful all rolled into one while you are standing there in a dress while your wife is arguing with you so you have to get the clothes off as quickly as possible to try and make it feel right and normal and the odd thing is that the more the Cder thinks of there partner the more it can hit them until they get over this faze, which in turn can make them angry inside for being caught that way in the first place .

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Originally Posted by KellyV GG

thanks so much Joni. I did tell him right away how it made me feel...belittled, inferior...that it was OK to emulate me and my gender until there was a real issue to deal with and then it felt like he had to uneven the playing filed. He did say that it was nothing like that but I think any girl in my position would have felt the same way.

I don't think that he feels men are superior to women but he is a big sports guy and can be a bit of a macho poser around other men or his sons, but in general no. Geez, there are so many places you can go trying to figure things out. I do understand the guilt aspect but it seems iike CDing can be such a self centered thing sometimes that he forgets to consider how I might perceive things or feel, it seems like it's all about his fragile feeling. In general the CDing has brought us much closer and I feel very lucky that he trusts me enough to open up this side to me but that incident made me feel like it's just something he can step out of any time. I do get the guilt thing tho...thanks for the great advice.

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Hiya and welcome to the forum!!! Well, I can tell you from personal experience - if I argue with my wife while I'm dressed....I just feel ridiculous. Especially if it's about something serious. Dunno why. Sorta like "here I am in this goofy get-up trying to make a point about something I feel strongly about". Sort of like a clown reciting Shakespeare, I guess - doesn't work too well. This hasn't happened recently, so maybe (by now) I would handle it differently.

The guilt has a LOT to do with perceptions of personal failure. "I like to dress and act like a woman, therefore I feel like a failure as a man". This can be totally unconcious, I think, however, the resulting behavior speaks VOLUMES about how we REALLY feel. A lot of us may feel this way. Self acceptance is a long journey. It's EXCEEDINGLY HARD to deal with someone who hasn't fully accepted themselves. Once this happens, generally the guilt feeling subside, and things become more straight forward.

The only thing I can suggest is - try and take it slowly, expect some bumps in the road, and communicate your feelings. We're a complex bunch, no doubt, and getting to where we want to be is a long, tough road, both personally and in relationships.

Welcome to the forum again, I hope you find something of value here. :)

There's a lot to be said for the happy place. For me, I'm unaccustomed to dealing with anything but the most pleasurable things in life when I'm dressed. Unhealthy? Maybe. It is quite an escape that I find in no other activity. It certainly gives me an unrealistic association with all things female.

In all my years of cding, I can only remember one similar situation, and it wasn't with my wife, which would have made it worse. When it happened, I became hyper-aware of all my feminine affectations. I could practically feel the lipstick on my lips. I could feel my earrings stabbing my ears. I could go on and on about every little thing. Moments before I had been happily strolling throught the mall, feeling ever so pleased about my very feminine presentation, and reveling in the same things that now seemed foreign, yet still an inescapable part of me. My posture, my gestures, my voice. It all seemed very incongruent, and I wished it wasn't there.

When I'm dressed, I enjoy being softer, a little more vulnerable, friendlier, nicer. I'm not used to dealing with negative emotions while dresses, and don't want to.

I remember that during this incident I got flashes of myself, as if I were on the outside looking in. A few moment before I would have seen myself in a very feminine and flattering light. At that moment, I saw myself a an angry man in a dress.

If there's really such a thing as pettitcoat discipline, I imagine that this is one reason it works. Speaking from experience, one can pretty quickly begin to feel pretty ridiculous exhibiting this type of male behavior when femininely attired.

Wow this whole thing is so complicated on so many levels. You would think that this would be more complicated emotionally for me but not even close. Thank you all for being so candid and taking the time to share.

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Originally Posted by Cindy09

It took me 23 years to accept who I am and come out to my GF, and even then it took months not to feel guilty about being a girl when she came home from work. Even though she was totally amazing and took it all in stride (almost better than I did making the revelation) I still felt this guilt and uneasiness inside of me.

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Thanks for that Cindy...it makes me wonder...if you are dealing with something that causes so much shame, guilt and confusion and continuing to do it causes more shame and guilt, what's the benefit? It's so hard to understand. And how do I make it easier? He won't talk about it and quite obviously doesn't know how to define what's going on inside himself. Is it possible to ever be comfortable with anyone if you are dealing with constant guilt and shame?

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Originally Posted by Gerard

As in defence of us guys, most of us are not very good at putting our impulses and emotions into words and we will often react defensively and in denial when the deeper layers of our psyche are laid bare. Men are not taught to handle emotions and understand themselves.

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This is hard to completely understand because if you're femme side is so strong that it has to manifest itself, develop it's own personality, have it's own name and wardrobe it would be logical to assume that you might be more in touch with your emotions. But thanks for that...I think that's exactly what's happening. How do you deal with another person denial, tho, when it's all so crystal clear and written in neon from my side of things?

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Your BF is not trying to emulate us. He does want to learn from us because he hasn't been socialized to know how to express his femme self, but he really is trying to be herself.

So asking questions like "what makes you want to dress" is like asking someone "why do you like apples better than oranges".

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Thank you..it's so hard to understand. He's so disconnected from his own feelings that I don't see how he will ever really connect with who him/herself really is. And I don't know how to help. Wish I had read this before I asked him what makes him want to dress, which I did last night. His answer: a very uncomfortable "dunno, it's just clothes". And when I tried to push it farther he completely shut down. Don't know where to go from here.

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Originally Posted by joanne f

I know that i put that it can be linked to a type of guilt when a Cder suddenly takes off the clothes that they are in for no apparent reason but some how just guilt does not quite seam the right word so i am going to add shame to mix in with guilt , it is a sort of a mixture of both , you feel guilty and shameful all rolled into one while you are standing there in a dress while your wife is arguing with you so you have to get the clothes off as quickly as possible to try and make it feel right and normal and the odd thing is that the more the Cder thinks of there partner the more it can hit them until they get over this faze, which in turn can make them angry inside for being caught that way in the first place .

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So...relationships are difficult enough to begin with, so how do you deal with a partner who is dealing with guilt, shame and anger about something not even related to normal relationship issues. Now I feel like I have to walk on eggshells to protect his fragile side. Which doesn't seem fair, but at the same time I wish I could take all of that away and certainly don't want to make it worse. But if something non CD realted is bothering me is it better to wait until he's in boy mode and therefore more comfortable with himself before we deal with it? I know that if I have to tiptoe around for months or years until he feels comfortable with himself I will more than likely really resent it.

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Originally Posted by Crysten

The guilt has a LOT to do with perceptions of personal failure. "I like to dress and act like a woman, therefore I feel like a failure as a man". This can be totally unconcious, I think, however, the resulting behavior speaks VOLUMES about how we REALLY feel. A lot of us may feel this way. Self acceptance is a long journey. It's EXCEEDINGLY HARD to deal with someone who hasn't fully accepted themselves. Once this happens, generally the guilt feeling subside, and things become more straight forward.

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Things were pretty straight forward and we really had nothing to deal with before "she" appeared in the relationship. Suddenly it's a whole new thing and yes....Exceedingly hard. I accept her, have shopped for her, have done her make-up, have run all over London searching for the right wigs, shoes, etc...which I would never even do for myself, too much bother. So...here she is, everythings complicated and I'm running around like a mad woman trying to make sure she has what she needs. This is supposed to be a good thing but it just gets more and more complex.

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Originally Posted by Rhonda Jean

I'm not used to dealing with negative emotions while dresses, and don't want to.

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Thank you for sharing that story, Rhonda Jean. Very telling. One thing....no one is happy dealing with negative emotions. But just because when dressed you are in your happy place (not you specifically....I'm refering to my BF really) and something negative occurs...oh well, you have to deal with it like a person relating to another person...uncomfortable or not. It's part of life and to be on the other side of behavior you don't understand or may misread on top of the issue at hand is just craziness.

Sorry for the long post. I appreciate the incredible support so much. Really feel the need to vent today........Cheers....Kelly

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Originally Posted by KellyV GG

So...here she is, everythings complicated and I'm running around like a mad woman trying to make sure she has what she needs.

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Don't do that or you'll probably end up with an overgrown spoilt child on your hands. Let her go out and buy her own things. You're living in the most cosmopolitan city in the most tolerant country in the world.. Use that to your advantage There's no excuse for her to dump all her shopping needs on you. The shops don't care. They probably get dozens of TG customers every day. If I lived closer I'd offer to drag her round the shops.

KellyV

Your questions and comments are very insightful. I love your openness and honesty. We (I) probably don't get enough of that.

I could sum up my feelings on it by saying that reality can really screw up a fantasy. The examples are endless.

I actually think you've made some sort of quantum leap in acceptance by not only allowing, but expecting him to deal with everyday life within his femme personna. Most of us have dealt with cd related issues while they're in the forefront. You seem to have bypassed the usual, " I'm afraid my friends will notice his shaved legs" concerns and gone straight to "I'm able to deal with real life as a woman. Why can't you?".

A question for you. When you're having this disagreement with your boyfriend and you're looking into his made-up eyes, are you not distracted by his sparkling earrings and femine-looking breasts? Or bothered that his words come through his red lips? I think (knowing I may be completely wrong) that this is another one of those times that most women would want all this stuff to just go away. Do you feel like you're arguing with a woman? Your girlfriend? Or do you see all this no differently than you expect he sees you similarly attired? Do the clothes and makeup make no difference to you, or do you think you treat him differently when he's "her"? This is quite an intruguing discussion, and (to me) quite revealing into the thoughts of an acceptins SO. Thanks for your the insight!

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Originally Posted by Rhonda Jean

KellyV

Your questions and comments are very insightful. I love your openness and honesty. We (I) probably don't get enough of that.

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Rhonda Jean...I appreciate your and everyone's honesty and willingness to share. It's a massive relief to have someone to talk too.

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Originally Posted by Rhonda Jean

I could sum up my feelings on it by saying that reality can really screw up a fantasy. The examples are endless.

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Ain't that the truth...I think that might be a little bit of what's going on with us. He's clearly going thru some massive emotional stuff when dressed that he just can't express. Be careful what you ask for, I guess.

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Originally Posted by Rhonda Jean

I actually think you've made some sort of quantum leap in acceptance by not only allowing, but expecting him to deal with everyday life within his femme personna. Most of us have dealt with cd related issues while they're in the forefront. You seem to have bypassed the usual, " I'm afraid my friends will notice his shaved legs" concerns and gone straight to "I'm able to deal with real life as a woman. Why can't you?".

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I don't know that I've made any sort of quantum leap. I care about my relationship. My friends thoughts aren't important. I have, however, taken the wrap for the shaved legs and body with his kids. They noticed and started giving him a hard time and I jumped in and said that I made him do it cuz he was too hairy. Which I'm sure got back to their mum (who has no idea, supposedly), but, oh well. And ya...you don't get a pass for dealing with anything based on the gender you happen to be presenting and how fragile that part of your ego may be. It's not a game and not fair to me to have to deal with one aspect over the other. I deserve that much.

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Originally Posted by Rhonda Jean

A question for you. When you're having this disagreement with your boyfriend and you're looking into his made-up eyes, are you not distracted by his sparkling earrings and femine-looking breasts? Or bothered that his words come through his red lips? I think (knowing I may be completely wrong) that this is another one of those times that most women would want all this stuff to just go away. Do you feel like you're arguing with a woman? Your girlfriend? Or do you see all this no differently than you expect he sees you similarly attired? Do the clothes and makeup make no difference to you, or do you think you treat him differently when he's "her"?

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If I get distracted at all when he's dressed it's because he's a very very pretty woman and and an average bloke. I do tend to find myself staring at him excessively, but because he's so pretty! As for the arguement...not at all. I see him/her, either way. I can tell you I did not want the whole CDing thing to go away at that moment, just what I considered childish behavior because he couldn't deal with a situation en femme. Which, thanks to all of the comments, I do understand on one level but still....boy or girl, he's a grownup. Figure out how to deal with life as a grown-up, please. Maybe I lack a level of understanding, I know how incredibly difficult this all is from his perspective, but...I study martial arts, so if I get in an arguement wearing my gi, does that mean because I have fighting clothing on I have to be in that mode...sorry, I'm in fighting clothes, I have to kick you're **s now cuz I'm dressed like this...or, let me change into girl clothes and we can have a civilized discussion. OK...over simplified maybe, definately..but I don't think it needs to be a complex issue. Anyway...I wanted that attitude/behavior to go away, but I see one person. I don't see a girlfriend at all. I see my pretty, feminine (which he is not so much out of dress) boyfriend in a dress, wig and make-up expressing a side of him that is obviously so strong it needs to materialize. But I don't see a gender change or consider him my girlfriend. He's not. I do treat him differently when he's dressed. But in a good way. He's softer, more affectionate, more snuggly, very sweet and giggly...it's nice. Boy him is nice as well, but she's easier to snuggle with and get closer to physically.

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Originally Posted by Rhonda Jean

This is quite an intruguing discussion, and (to me) quite revealing into the thoughts of an acceptins SO. Thanks for your the insight!

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Thanks for your insights! This is certainly not something I ever imagined ever ever ever to be dealing with in life. And it's way more complicated than I thought it would be. I am very accepting because I love him dearly and I believe everyone has the right to be who they are. But not at the expense of those around you....Kelly

...

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Kelly V... This is hard to completely understand because if you're femme side is so strong that it has to manifest itself, develop it's own personality, have it's own name and wardrobe it would be logical to assume that you might be more in touch with your emotions. But thanks for that...I think that's exactly what's happening. How do you deal with another person denial, tho, when it's all so crystal clear and written in neon from my side of things?

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Well, yes, a very strong feminine inclination abides in many of us, but we just have not had the socialization or opportunity to mature into it. So, as others have said, especially Gerard, we just cannot, will not bring ourselvs to verbalize it in any understandable way. Hell, we cannot even understand it ourselves.

Until we are able to even begin to accept this within ourselves we see it as a curse. And that cursed feeling will last forever until we can. Many here, myself included, have been able to get there with the help of the examples and stories and advice of folks here (peers who have also sufferred the curse and been able free themselves of it). Many others have needed the concentrated help of professional and impartial confidants like psychs and shrinks! Even if the feeling of being cursed can be shed, though, that doesn't necessarily engender the feeling of being "blessed".

I ramble a little here, but the point I'm trying to get to is this: Your man is isolated within himself. The frustration of being unable to understand himself, and the crippling inability to even be able to communicate to you what he himself cannot understand, may be the cause of his withdrawal. That's what we do as men.

You're very well-intentioned attempts to empathize and help don't seem to be able to help your relationship either. In fact, as PaulaJane says, you may even be exacerbating his retreat into himself. Not ever having had any acceptance, he may be finding yours almost unbelievable. And, oddly, that's kinda scary, too.

So there must be another way...

They've already been mentioned here. Joining this group and opening up to "peers". Given the thousands of folks here and the thousands who have passed through, we've probably heard it all. And/Or professional counselling. And/Or a local support group that he can talk to face to face.

As you've already read, we all celebrate your acceptance and the hard work you're going through to normalize this unusual relationship. And we're sorry that it's such a difficult exercise for you.

Good Luck to you, dear one ...

There's a lot of varying advice here. Use what you think will work. But most importantly, keep yourself and your own peace of mind in the forefront of your actions.

:)

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Originally Posted by deja true

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Until we are able to even begin to accept this within ourselves we see it as a curse. And that cursed feeling will last forever until we can.

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Thanks for that. Maybe I'm not taking it all as seriously as I should. It hurts to see someone you love going thru something neither one of you understand. It's horrible to see it..or anything..as a curse you are forced to live with.

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Originally Posted by deja true

The frustration of being unable to understand himself, and the crippling inability to even be able to communicate to you what he himself cannot understand, may be the cause of his withdrawal. That's what we do as men.

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Thanks for that as well. It's easy to forget that. I am very in touch with myself and my own feelings so I assume he/she should be as well. I so want him to be able to communicate what ever is going on.

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Originally Posted by deja true

They've already been mentioned here. Joining this group and opening up to "peers". Given the thousands of folks here and the thousands who have passed through, we've probably heard it all. And/Or professional counselling. And/Or a local support group that he can talk to face to face.

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Not a chance in the world at this point. I mentioned this forum and maybe talking to other people in his position which was immediately met with "so, you're saying there's something wrong with me!" and no matter how gently I try to re-approach the subject I'm immediately shot down.

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Originally Posted by deja true

As you've already read, we all celebrate your acceptance and the hard work you're going through to normalize this unusual relationship. And we're sorry that it's such a difficult exercise for you.

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Thank you...I very much appreciate all of the help and support. More than you can imagine!!

Kelley,

Your post made me look at some of my own behaviors and assumptions in a new light.....thanks for bringing this subject up.

I've had something similar happen in the past (with my ex), and for me, changing out of my dress and heels to have/complete the discussion was my reaction to my notion that the crossdressing bothered her.
I guess I saw the change in clothes as a return to a "neutral" corner, since she wasn't at all positive about my proclivities ( I would call it toleration rather than acceptance).

I see clearly that you are accepting of his dressing up, and in this case his return to male attire seems more like posturing rather than (in his mind) a return to baseline/neutrality.

You are very articulate about this, and you make a very good point that I at least completely overlooked.

I would just tell him outright how you feel, and that if the two of you have a disagreement while he is enfemme, it needs to get resolved (assuming it can be) in that mileau.

It is really, really hard for some of us to accept this part of ourselves.
We've struggled most of our lives to hide it from others, and we feel extremely vulnerable about it. The positive regard that you give to him is going to help his acceptance of himself happen eventually, but it will take time.

And I agree that you shoudn't have to carry the frieght for his shaved legs or other grooming habits that the kids notice. The fact that you stood up for him in this situation tells me that you saw how vulnerable he was at that moment, and compassion caused you to react to protect him.

Hopefully as he learns to accept this side of himself he will be able to own up to his own choices.

BTW, if he did ever do this again (change clothes during an argument), do what you alluded to above: put on your gi. When he asks "what are you doing?", tell him: "the same as you....changing clothes for a fight".
It might give him something to think about.

Chris

hi kelly and welcome :hugs: i cant be dressed and argue with my S/O lol dressing takes me to a relaxed and warm place and argueing is not relaxing :2c: side note hes really missing out on a great place here maybe you could just leave your computer opened on this site so the next time hes on its allready here ?? good luck and try not to over think it too much

KellyV,

Um, I think I'm starting to get a little crush on you. ;-)

Your posts are outstanding and your SO really needs to wake up. Somebody needs to have a direct and honest conversation with her and there's a few girls on this board that would love to do it.

I don't think you're going to get through because I believe you intimidate her. You're sharp as a tack and you know her awful secret, it's no wonder she needs to "man" up.

She needs a friend.

The worst part about this thing is the isolation. It's a shame that a lifetime of societal pressure has the potential of screwing up the best thing he's ever managed to do; find you.

-Misty

And if she's so pretty (as you describe) - well, where is her picture!!

Hmmmmmmm????? :battingeyelashes:

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Kelly ... Not a chance in the world at this point. I mentioned this forum and maybe talking to other people in his position which was immediately met with "so, you're saying there's something wrong with me!" and no matter how gently I try to re-approach the subject I'm immediately shot down.

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Yowch!

This is maybe the root of the problem... a refusal to even try to accept....
I guess most would say that you've gotta back off a little ... but...
I'm thinkin' that very quiet, very calm, very loving, very gentle pressure might help...

no recriminations ... no expressed frustration .... just love!

It seems it's really in his hands, hun. You've done your best!


:straightface:

(Hmmm! quick late thought ... might it be possible to print out these pages and offer them to him? He's got to be able to get an inkling that his isolating behaviour is not the best reaction to your acceptance. Misty is right ... he needs a friend ... that was my emphasis on the benefit of "peers" to talk with. There are scores of potential friends and shoulders to cry on right here...)