Emotionally tired of how crossdressing affects me morally..

I think after much investigation I can say that I am not attracted to men. I say that because when I was testing the waters, I actually felt... uncomfortable being held by him. And knowing that the possibility of going all the way scares me, maybe it truly isn't for me...

That said, having grown up in a conservative and relatively religious background, it stresses me how dressing can be viewed so negatively... I mean, I'll admit sexual gratification is part of why I do it. But just as honest, I'm quite comfortable lounging around at home just simply wearing yoga pants and a tee from forever 21 while maybe working on a paper.

I know this thought weighs some of us down.. so I guess what I'm asking is.. Is there a way to justify this action? I love my parents/family so much. And it'd kill my heart to see them saddened by me if they ever found out.. I don't mean for this post to be a moral attack if it sounds that way.. I'm jus trying to figure out how I'm going to go about the rest of my life. Is this even a moral issue that I need to concern myself with? Am I overthinking things? Question like: "What if I have kids? Will I be able to hide this?" make me concerned... I still have yet to form any solid conclusion on anything.

I'm just troubled.. I grew up in elementary and high school with the foundation that morality isn't subjective. That it is narrow. Maybe that is why i feel this way. However, in college, everything became relative (at least in my experience). I encountered a wide variety of people.

This post might become a touchy subject, but I can no longer reflect and wonder about it on my own. I need help.

Please lend me your thoughts. <3 If you have any questions about my background, to help me find an answer, or get somewhere, I'll be more than happy to answer them.

Thank you loves...

Additional Info:
- I do feel that dressing as Veronica is a part of me that will never go away. I've accepted her.

You can dress and not having anything to do with men. Would dressing and being strictly hetero ease your mind some?

As for having children etc., I have a few years on you and I still wonder about that myself. Barring lying to a GG spouse, I fear I will never be able to find someone and have a family because I dress too. Even if I give up dressing, I cannot lie about where I have been and what I have done in the past.

@Vickie, it eases my mind. That's actually where I feel I am at emotionally. I'm just wondering what's the next step. If there is a next step. And i'm totally on the same page as you on your statement about family and dressing... :sigh:

if you consider that jeans were invented as working pants for men , boots were working shoes for men, and if you look around you will see plenty women who wear a suit , part of my consideration to cross dress is simple that if females can wear mens clothes then why can't wear womens clothes I do not dress for sexual gratification and I am bi, but there is nothing wrong with being straight , just enjoy the time you can dress and don't worry to much on what other people will think

@Beam, i do recognize that clothes are just clothes.. and yes, im definitely making the most of my time. I don't mind what other people think, but I do care on the effects that I would have on the people closest to me..

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Originally Posted by CodeVeronica

@Beam, i do recognize that clothes are just clothes.. and yes, im definitely making the most of my time. I don't mind what other people think, but I do care on the effects that I would have on the people closest to me..

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...and they care about you I'm sure. All of you.

The most important thing to remember, you are an individual. You have the ability to overtime change your thoughts, feelings and yes even morals no matter how long they've been a part of your life. It won't happen overnight, and as much as I'd like to say it's an easy journey it's really not. At the end however, you really can be anything you want to be.

CodeVeronica, I don't think you are overthinking it and it is reasonable to reflect on your own motivation and the morality of it. I can say that while I had a somewhat looser moral framework growing up, I still face the same questions after many years of CDing.

I also admit that my reason for CDing is largely for sexual gratification, and I also am not attracted to men, similar to you. So, for people who feel this way, isn't the act of crossdressing really similar to an extended form of sexual self indulgence? What is your moral position on that?

For me, if I tear down the pink fog for a little while and think clearly about things, I feel that it is fundamentally morally wrong. Sorry to say that, but it is true (for me). It is of course easier to avoid the guilt and try to rationalize why this form of behavior is acceptable in the name of self-expression, etc.

So you may also ask the question of "if it is morally wrong, what am I going to do about it?". For me, I have arrived at the understanding that this is a flaw in myself that I cannot erase, so I will continue but I will hide it away and minimize the impact on family and friends.

Look at all the Old Folks on here an what they say ? We did all this an NEVER had the internet to learn an talk to people about it ? Atleast you hot that going for you ,,, Us old folk put it up for years an it came back after we were well into our 40s 50s 60s an now we have to deal with it . So just know who you are an be honest with your future partner an tell them before you get into a long term relationship . That way you an them will know what lies under the skin an it will not be a big surprise later to be delt with at a later date . You have a golden opportunity to set things strait now . Some people including me have put it away for years for it to pop up later ,,So if you have these feelings now you must not discount them an not let them come back to bite you after the new has worn off a wirl wind relationship .

Veronica - Seams like you are primarily concerns about discovery by your family, which is a quite reasonable fear. If you have accepted that your crossdressing is part of your life, then you will have to live with rigid boundaries to keep your crossdressing private, which many successfully have done.

The additional moral issue you imply is quite different. Your discription or moral concern is a bit confusing - deep religious education and upbringing; testing of homosexuality; broader viewpoints after college; and acceptance that crossdressing is part of you. It appears that you are an intelligent, caring, moral person who needs some assurances. Maybe discussion with a therapist will help ease your mind.

with regards to just the dressing like a woman I see few moral problems. If it hurts no one else, it is ok. The only moral implication I can think of is the dishonesty of keeping it a secret. Wearing clothes you like hurts no one at all so no problem. The sexual part I will not address because there are many moral "rules" about that and I have my own thoughts there.

You do not have to associate with men or anyone for tha matter.
You do not have to confide in any one.
A lot of cross dressers do it solely by themselves and in the privacy of their own room.
So practice what you do this way and maybe later you can widen your horizons.
It is all a matter of self discovery. May you enjoy the trip. :)

Wow, sounds like you and I actually have a lot in common.

I also grew up in an environment where morality was not subjective, and I learned that crossdressing (even from an early age) was not something that fit into my parent's version of morality. One of my earliest memories is me playing with my sister and her friend and I put on a dress. My sister went and told my dad who the proceeded to shame me and tell me that "You're a boy, you don't do that!" It really stuck with me , it's weird how I still remember that.

Like you, I have struggled with finding the place that crossdressing has in my life (if there is one). It is a scary thought to think "what if my family finds out" but I have come to realize that, ultimately, I have to live my life in a way that I deem morally right, and be a good person as I understand what that means. Sooner or later, the influence your family has on you will probably fade away, then you'll be on your own, and you'll have to make sense of the world in your own terms. If this includes accepting crossdressing in your life, then so be it; as long as it doesn't hurt anyone, what's the big deal? And if you choose not to continue it, then that's fine too. The idea here is to start learning to understand yourself and your world, and make those decisions for yourself. I'm in the same boat as you, if my parents/family were to find out, they might be saddened but really it isn't their decision to make for me anymore. I mean, how big of a deal is it really that we like to wear heels, dresses, and makeup?

And about the family and kids thing: Do you really want to raise children who see crossdressing as something shameful or something to be hidden? There are plenty of people on this site who have raised their children to understand and appreciate the diverse range of people and behaviors, including themselves as crossdressers. Besides, circumstances change, by the time you have kids who knows what your situation might be like?

Hope this helps! I was going to keep going but I don't want to over-burden you with so much reading!

Good luck

"Every journey begins with a small step" even if the feet are wearing high heels. You will evolve over the years and are fortunate to have the help of those here who do represent a small cross section of society. Just as the larger society has many different opinions, so does this group, yet they all interact to support one another...generally. :) Do not be in a hurry to tell anyone, especially family at this time. Most members suggest telling a possible spouse or GF early in the relationship to avoid later hurt, anger, and divorce. This is part of you, just as stamp collecting might be. Why you do this is yours to claim and not dictated by anyone else. Yes, collecting stamps is more accepted by society but that too is changing. You may also find that there are more questions, initially, than answers. Remember, also, that it is the people interpreting the great religious teachers that seem to cause all the trouble and not the teachers. Have a good journey.

Hmmmm, yeah........well.........

Such is the subject at hand, societal NORM versus normality of people, and surprisingly they do not conjoin entirely!!!!

Societies view on morality is rigid and based on some prehistoric notions of religious, cultural, and lawful bias.

One thing shall be certain, "you will not be able to divorce transgenderism, and that is given, however you may stay away from crossdressing for long periods of time, even years, but eventually it will knock back at your door of consciousness begging to be let in. No way around this!
But should you be punished for being your self, of course not, yet, friends, family, peers, some and in a lot of cases, many, seem to be put off by such evil act.

Until you face your self and see the truth and love within your heart just as you are, peace of being whole, shall be illusive and distant.
Guilt shall follow and regret will fill your mind as it does now, as you conform to false image of whom they want you to be, but not who you truly are!

Sorry to place such perspective on things but, this is how it is. And to be truly free, the price sometimes is immense!

Veronica,
Crossdressing is in no way immoral, always remember that darlin. Best wishes in your journey.

I agree with Inna.

You can't successfully love anyone until you love yourself. Hiding your perfectly harmless desire to wear women's clothes from your future spouse and children will be difficult if not impossible. She will find out eventually. Basing a relationship such as marriage on a lie is problematic. There's the real immorality in this situation. Lying to your wife and kids for the lifetime of your marriage.

Stop fighting a closed minded upbringing. You are going to crossdress. This does not ever go away. And, it is totally and completely harmless. Crossdressing harms no one. Do you really want to live such a life?

Stephie

I've never been conflicted morally about my crossdressing. I have never tied crossdressing to anything that is against "religion". The reason is that for me, morality is narrow, as it is for you. And that narrow moral code is: be good to others. That's it. At the heart of every religion is that. Are you a good person? If yes, stop worrying. If no, be a good person and stop worrying.

Of course we want to be respectful of peoples belief systems. But the question has to be asked, what does one do when their particular religious upbringing condemns an individual for who they are. You're a living example of the emotional conflict that inflicts. the only options are 1) adhere to the teachings of your religion, and in the process attempt to repress who you are , or continue to question the rules you've been told to live by , and through a thoughtful process of exploration, education and introspection, decide for yourself what is right for you.

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Originally Posted by almostalady

with regards to just the dressing like a woman I see few moral problems. If it hurts no one else, it is ok. The only moral implication I can think of is the dishonesty of keeping it a secret. Wearing clothes you like hurts no one at all so no problem.

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I agree with almostalady. Crossdressing itself is certainly not immoral. But the ancillary issues of how it is done and the effect on others, especially within our families, raise serious questions that each of us needs to deal with based on our own particular circumstances.

Code Veronica, I can sure relate to your situation, but i am58 yrs old. I started to put on my sister and mom's clothes at age 14, or 15, and it was sexual fetishing. It has always had a sexual side, until the last few yrs, when now i can dress without doing the sexual act. I was brought up religious too. I have been in a church, which has great truth, and hope for the future of the earth, however, crossdressing is a no no, as is all sexual activity outside of marriage. A homosexual friend of mine, is in the church, too. One thing for sure, life is full of conflicts, dilemnas, and compulsions. I have now been with two men admirers, but have boundries on what i will do sexually. i compromised a little last time. I still have never been with a GG sexually, but morally, would like to be with one. I feel guilt and shame too, often, because morally, I have been taught crossdressing is a sin, because I was born a man, and that is what i should be, and not effeminate . I feel like i am half woman , half man. It aint easy, is it? I am being more open about my dressing, though. When i am in a nursing home or homeless, or dead, i won.t need to dress up anymore.

I think that the problem today is that people get a missunderstanding of what morality is. A moral by defination is; concerned with goodness or badness of character or disposition. Character is about our collective qualities or peculiarities, which to me boils down to our thoughts, motives, actions, or deeds. Is a business man in his three piece suit who is greedy, selfish and self centered someone of good character? Or how about one of us girls who dresses to the "nines" and is helpful, generous, kind to others, is she of good character? Character comes from within and so does your morality, so if you want to ask, am I a moral person, then examine your thoughts and motives for why you do what you do! It's what inside the package that counts, not the wrapping with all of the pretty bows! I don't know about you, but I kept what was inside the box, the wrap and bows ended up in the garbage.

I too came up in a very strict, conservative protestant fundamentalist household. This same stark notion of morality was hammered into me morning noon and night, and it's taken me 30 some years to deconstruct it enough to really come to terms with myself. I know where you're coming from.

Look, when it comes to morality, you really have to ask yourself this question: "who am I hurting?"

You like to get pretty and engage in "fun times", amirite?

How does that hurt anyone? Not in some hand-wavy "young man is losing his motivation" or "those are potential babies" kind of BS, but in an actual, concrete way ... who did you hurt? nobody.

Does dressing make you happy? Apart from the "fun times" does it also express an essential aspect of your personality that you feel needs to get some fresh air from time to time? If the two answers to those questions are also "yes" ... who are you hurting by denying this to yourself?

By extension, who gets hurt when you get upset and worried that you are a "bad person" for doing something that literally impacts no other person in this world besides you?

which course is "moral"? If you ask me, the one where nobody gets hurt (including you).

I think what many have said is very important, Code. It's important to know that your dressing hurts no one. If u enjoy it, why shouldn't u continue with it? Eventually, u will accept that it is a part of who u r and u can explain that to your potential SO's in the future. That being said, I understand where you're coming from because I have moral issues with my dressing, too! Like Alter explains:

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Originally Posted by alter_3

CodeVeronica, I don't think you are overthinking it and it is reasonable to reflect on your own motivation and the morality of it. I can say that while I had a somewhat looser moral framework growing up, I still face the same questions after many years of CDing.

I also admit that my reason for CDing is largely for sexual gratification, and I also am not attracted to men, similar to you. So, for people who feel this way, isn't the act of crossdressing really similar to an extended form of sexual self indulgence? What is your moral position on that?

For me, if I tear down the pink fog for a little while and think clearly about things, I feel that it is fundamentally morally wrong. Sorry to say that, but it is true (for me). It is of course easier to avoid the guilt and try to rationalize why this form of behavior is acceptable in the name of self-expression, etc.

So you may also ask the question of "if it is morally wrong, what am I going to do about it?". For me, I have arrived at the understanding that this is a flaw in myself that I cannot erase, so I will continue but I will hide it away and minimize the impact on family and friends.

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I've accepted that dressing has become a big part of my life and believe I could come out to family, friends, and potential GG partners about my "hobby" if it weren't for one thing, the sexual issue! That's a big part of dressing for me. I know it's perverted and wrong. And, I don't feel I could tell anyone about my dressing and leave THAT out! I continue to deal with the guilty this causes and see no resolution for me until I either give up dressing or sex. Since I'm in my sixties, the latter is more likely!

Wow. So many responses!. Please give me a moment to be able to respond to all of them after I get home later today. Thank you for all your support. This means a lot to me.

I do not see dressing as immoral either. There are people who are not happy go see me in a dress (but they are not willing to confront me and tell me why they do not like it). My family knows and loves me any ways.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CodeVeronica

... having grown up in a conservative and relatively religious background, it stresses me how dressing can be viewed so negatively ... I know this thought weighs some of us down ... so I guess what I'm asking is ... Is there a way to justify this action? I love my parents/family so much. And it'd kill my heart to see them saddened by me if they ever found out ... Is this even a moral issue that I need to concern myself with? What if I have kids? Will I be able to hide this?

Additional Info:
- I do feel that dressing as Veronica is a part of me that will never go away. I've accepted her.

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If you are a college student, then you might consider taking an anthropology course that deals with cultures around the world. Once we recognize that Western morality is not synonymous with morality, we can ask how other moral orientations differ from Western traditions. In many respects, different, independently created systems overlap. All are against stealing, murder, and bearing false witness against others. All are for honoring one’s family. Most, however, do not make a big deal out of gender feelings; and most take a more tolerant attitude towards sexuality than Western traditions do. Due to Western nations colonizing other parts of the world, Western traditions have spread far beyond North Africa, Europe, and North America; yet roughly half of the world’s 7 billion people today follow other traditions. There is no reason to believe that we are more moral than they are.

Ideas about gender and/or sexuality clearly are NOT spiritual and they are not shared by all moral persons. The only sensible conclusion from all this, in my opinion, is that your gender feelings and your sexual orientation are not fundamentally moral issues. Living authentically is a moral issue; but that involves accepting yourself and living as who you are, not faking it to satisfy the dogmas of others. So … try to avoid stealing, assaulting others, and bearing false witness against others. Honor the good in your family and neighbors (but that doesn’t mean copying everything they espouse); and don’t buy into the notion that crossdressing is a moral wrong. If it is part of who you are, then you will be healthier and happier if you accept it and try to express it in ways that don’t hurt others, which brings us to your question about kids.

Regarding marriage and having kids, there are indeed practical issues that most crossdressers must face. Wives typically don’t want their crossdressing husbands to be open with everyone about their cross-gender interests. Also, they don’t want their kids to be teased by others at school. Support groups (Tri-Ess and others) deal with such issues. The key is to compromise. Recognize others’ legitimate concerns and work out compromises that give both sides part of what they want.

At 22 years old you are having the what I call "who am I, what am I and what does it all mean syndrome".
We all went thru it and you are very normal trust me.
CDing is a part of you and its just you expressing the female side of your personality.
Presenting as a female doesn't mean you have to date guys or have sex with them but you know that already I think.
At your age the world is opening up and its a new experience and a drastic change from what you were used to.
Just be yourself and when and if you find the right woman tell her about this side of you. If she can't deal with it send her on her way.
Your mate/partner needs to know all things about you.
If you have a religious background and feel strongly about the bearing false witness issue remember God created you as you are.
You have more than one side He instilled that in you so its not wrong at all.

Expressing one's feminine self is not a code of conduct. How we conduct ourselves, regardless of the gender we are presenting, is how morality is to be measured. IMHO.

Morals might not be the real issue here.

I for one do not agree with crossdressing not harming anyone. Even in total private everything we do, every thought we have, every decision we make causes us to do or behave differently on the next issues of life we face. There is just too much dishonesty, deceit and guilt for it not to spill over onto others is some manner.

I DO believe my crossdressing has influenced the way I have had a more understanding or tolorant reaction to totally unrelated events in the raising of my children and grandchildren.

Who among us has not prayed our children don't do some of the same stupid life threating things we did as teenagers( drive too fast, drink too much)? Because we did it does that make us just allow them to do the same without any consequences? Certainly not but it does make give us a better understanding of why they do these same things.

The same is true for all sorts of things that happen in everyday life that involve others dealing with dishonesty, deceit and guilt. We have experience in understanding this.

I have a Ten Commandments view of morals. I also have Ethics which I believe better define a lot of us. I especially like #4 below



eth·ics
   [eth-iks] Show IPA

plural noun
1.
( used with a singular or plural verb ) a system of moral principles: the ethics of a culture.

2.
the rules of conduct recognized in respect to a particular class of human actions or a particular group, culture, etc.: medical ethics; Christian ethics.

3.
moral principles, as of an individual: His ethics forbade betrayal of a confidence.

4.
( usually used with a singular verb ) that branch of philosophy dealing with values relating to human conduct, with respect to the rightness and wrongness of certain actions and to the goodness and badness of the motives and ends of such actions.




We keep our dressing from family and friends other than our SO's not because it is Moraly wrong. We hide it because it is not something they should have to know about or try to define if it is Moral to them.

Everything I do in life contributes to my ethics and how I conduct myself through out my life which in itself helps to define my morals.

kendra_gurl says,
"We keep our dressing from family and friends other than our SO's not because it is Moraly wrong. We hide it because it is not something they should have to know about or try to define if it is Moral to them.

Everything I do in life contributes to my ethics and how I conduct myself through out my life which in itself helps to define my morals".

I whole heartedly agree with you on this one. My standards to not have to be the exact same as everyone, but my actions need to be ethical.

Just because you dress as a woman does not mean that you must be attracted to men. Many many of us here are hetero.

On the moral issue. Yes it can be narrow, but it is narrow as it applies to a particular situation. You have accepted that this feminine part of you and will never go away. There are physiological explanations that can be cited to support this being integral to your psyche. Whatever the reason, this is a part of you. It would be immoral to ignore an accepted part of yourself, regardless of the part. Society's inability to accept this is not a moral edict, but merely a numbers situation. The sheer majority makes the minority feel less than whole, without much reasoning at all, and unfortunately causing a lot of misunderstanding even between loved ones. Your accepting of your true nature is what you need to do, and to ignore it would not be the right thing to do. That is my opinion.

Therapy can help you see this should you desire, and this is often desirable. Please do not overthink this. As you journey you will meet many people, some understanding, some not. They are yours to choose and befriend or not. It is your journey. Just try to do the things that you enjoy.

Barbara

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Originally Posted by Ambergold43

I also grew up in an environment where morality was not subjective, and I learned that crossdressing (even from an early age) was not something that fit into my parent's version of morality.

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I think this may be a large part of the problem, Veronica, trying to conform to others' sense of morality. It's pretty easy for someone who has no drive to crossdress to tell you that crossdressing is wrong. You seem like a well-balanced, smart, honest, "normal" young adult, who happens to have the desire to crossdress. At some point you have to reflect on your life's experiences and arrive at your own sense of morality. We have to cut the apron strings and live our own lives. That doesn't mean cut off contact with those with whom you disagree, and if others do that to you it says more about them than it does about you.
I never told my parents, now both gone, nor my child, about my crossdressing. That's what I thought was best for me. And I don't think it was dishonest to keep my private desires private. My father, like yours conservative and religious, caught me playing with lipstick whan I was a child, and held me down, putting it on me while verbally humiliating me. I got the message right then to keep the crossdressing to myself.
Regarding your testing the waters sexually, it's Ok. You're not cheating on anybody, are you? You'll figure it out. I know I hate beets only because I tried them once.
I suspect you've been taught that if you crossdress you must be gay. Not true. Gender expression and sexual attraction are separate things.

Veronica, I respect your concern for your family and their values. But you are not your family, each of us is an individual and has to make our own choices and experience life through our own set of filters and needs. I grew up in a family that was not bound very closely to religion but my crossdressing was seen as a bad thing. Although it was never stated expressly, I belive they equated it with homosexuality. Not unusual for those days and still not unusual, but you've passed that point and understand the difference between gender identity and sexual attraction. You also accept Veronica is not going away and will have to fit into your world. Those are two very big hurdles to overcome and you are to be congratulated for making that much progress. So now you have to move on and find out how your piece of the jugsaw puzzle fits with the rest of the world. I don't know if any of us here can give you your answer, only our take on things through our experience. Sin seems to indicate either a violation of God's will or a transgression against society that causes harm. I can't talk about the first but have yet to see how we create harm just by crossdressing. Once we put crossdressing above the needs of our family or allow the pink fog to govern our choices, there can be problems. But if we attend to life in a responsible way and integrate our gender identity into life as just one more equally important component, we do no harm. If others are offended, that is their problem. That sounds harsh, but I believe it is a mistake for someone to be unwilling to accept me because of my crossdressing if they don't first try to find out why I do it or what it means to me. I'll make the effort to understand them and respect their desires, so I hope to expect the same in return.

another old fart here with an opinion...
you have many questions and issues that you must deal with. there is no one answer
that would solve your problems. you know yourself and are your own "woman". the answers must come from within!
many of us lived in the closet for years, and i for one have many regrets. when i grew up, this "stuff" was taboo.
if i grew up today and had your looks, my life surely would have been different.

i understand the family, the moral and religious issues, but i honestly believe you must seek your own answers and live your own life.
everyone deserves to be happy. live your own life. you are young and beautiful, explore, take small steps and in time you will discover your own answers and how you want to live your life.

already you're finding answers as you explored being with a man and that that was not really what you wanted. you are free to explore and to do what ever you like as you will not be judged here. who knows how you will feel in a couple of years from now if you don't "test the waters".

i only wish i had the opportunity when i was younger. i do wish you the very best of luck :) paula

Hmmm. Well first off. Clothes are not moral or immoral. To ascribe such characteristics to inanimate objects is absurd. Is the way you dress, clothes made for men or women, going to affect anyone? Is owning a weapon (gun, spear, knife) moral (right or wrong)? No. It is the way those things are used that is moral or immoral. Is owning a car a moral desision? Again, no. How those things are used is where morality comes into play. If you get into your car after drinking, wreck and kill others that is morally wrong. I drive for a living and I can tell you the way most people go about the task of diving is irresponsible if not immoral. (I could go on and lecture on that subject for a long time, but that is not the focus of this discussion)

Being honest with yourself and those closest to you may affect the way you are perceived. If you are holding out for universal acceptance you will be waithing a very long time. If you are worried about a future SO or spouse the thing you need to be is up front and honest. I'll get to kids in a moment. Being accepted for who you are and accepting another for who they are is a deep rooted necessity to a secure relationship. Clothes don't affect your personality they are a reflection of your likes and dislikes. You can't say that because "I wear camisoles or panties under my outer clothes that no one can see I am a bad person" we are who we are individually. I am sure those of us who venture out in public dressed and presenting as female can tell you they get a variety of reactions. But ultimately how another reacts is more a reflection of their faults and predjudice if they wish to judge another negatively. No one has the right to tell you, me or anyone what they are "allowed" to wear to be acceptable in their minds. Who the bleep should give a care how another is dressed?

When it comes to children... they are born unaware of what is right or wrong to wear. As far as they are concerned, so what if we wear anything at all. Children are not born with preconceived notions about right or wrong. These are judgements that children are taught environmentally. Unfortunately or fortunately, we cannot help but to teach our children most of the values and morals we were raised with. What does a child care if dad wears a suit and tie or a dress and tights? Personally I think that a child who is raised to be more accepting of diferences and diversity will be less concerned with those stresses in life.
So dress how you want. Be honest and straight forward with those you wish to be close to. Raise your children as a responsible adult to be responsible. One way or another you may have to explain to a child gender roles. Do you want to explain to a child you have hidden your crossdressing from who catches you unexpectedly? Or would you rather explain why there are many in society who refuse to accept others who have different skin color or believe they have the authority to judge how others live their lives?

Live your life. Be yourself and do what makes you happy. As long as it has no bearing on others, who cares?

Cheers

Annette

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Originally Posted by alter_3

For me, if I tear down the pink fog for a little while and think clearly about things, I feel that it is fundamentally morally wrong. Sorry to say that, but it is true (for me). It is of course easier to avoid the guilt and try to rationalize why this form of behavior is acceptable in the name of self-expression, etc.

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Have you ever asked yourself why it's morally wrong? I, too, went down that road, the good, old road of guilt and shame, for many years. Now I look back and say, "What a waste of a lot of years!"

OK, you feel that something is wrong, but see if you can find a good reason to believe it is. Where I am now, I can't see any good reason to think that crossdressing is morally wrong. If you continue to believe that something is wrong without being able to explain why, you're simply making yourself unhappy for no good reason. I did that for lots of years. Looking back on it, I think that was a pretty silly thing to do.

This isn't an attempt to "rationalize this form of behavior" for the sake of "avoiding the guilt": honestly ask why you think it's wrong. If you can come up with a good answer yet continue to do what you're doing, then, yes, you deserve to feel guilty. But why accept guilt when you can't think of a good reason to do so?

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Originally Posted by Ambergold43

I also grew up in an environment where morality was not subjective. . .

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As did I. Or at least that's what I was given to think. There are attempts these days to establish an "objective" morality that has some basis other than God. I don't know how successful they've been. What I do know is that I myself have never come across a moral system that wasn't subjective. Often when people claim theirs is an objective morality, all they're saying is, "My system is better than yours, so I have the right to try to impose mine on you."

If a morality isn't subjective, then it rests on some foundation that is objectively verifiable. That's why I say I've never seen an objective morality, because I've never seen such a foundation.

A lot of people are proposing as a foundation for morality, or at least as a rule of thumb, that if something doesn't hurt anybody, it's morally acceptable. I think holes can be punched in that system, but I still think as a general rule it's not bad. At the end of the day it's subjective, but if you live your life honestly trying to do as little harm as possible to yourself and others, then you'll have lived pretty well. You'll have done a lot better than a lot of people who believe in a divinely-ordained moral system.

Best wishes, Annabelle

Veronica,

What follows is my personal experience in getting from roughly where you are to where I am today, some 30 years later. There is also a lot of my opinion, and yes, there is even some mention of my own religious views. No one has to believe what I do, I don’t expect that. But it has a lot of bearing on how I got to where I am. I don’t know if hearing my story will help you determine yours, so you can take it with a grain of salt or hit delete. I do apologize for the length of my response. Once I get started, . . . .

There is very little sexual connection to crossdressing for me, although that has not always been the case. I started to crossdress when I was between 6 and 9 years old, before I had much of a concept of what sex was all about. It wasn’t until I started going through puberty that crossdressing started to have sexual overtones. But then again, for a teenage boy, what doesn’t have sexual overtones. As I matured into adulthood, the sexual ties to crossdressing gradually weakened, and now there is little connection between the way that I’m dressed and my sexual arousal.

Being raised in a Catholic household, I found out rather quickly that my predilection to wearing girls’ clothes was something that I needed to hide, and I had many of the same guilt feelings that have already been expressed. When I got married, the guilt was exacerbated by hiding it from my wife, and later from my 5 kids. I also hoped that I could hide this from God, although, by that time attending a Presbyterian church, I knew that that was not possible. It wasn’t until I was in my mid 40s that I started to gain some understanding of what it is to be transgendered (in the broad sense), and to accept it as part of who I am. But I still hid it from my wife and kids for fear of losing them.

At some point, after a lot of prayer and research, I came to the conclusion that there was no reason to hide my crossdressing from God. He made me this way, so He already knew about it. So I made a deal with God (or so I thought) that as long as crossdressing did not interfere with my relationship with Him it would be OK. But I soon found that it was interfering, and purged for the umpteenth and last time. After more prayer and study, it came to me that my crossdressing was not really the curse that I had always believed it to be. Rather, it was a gift. God created me this way for a reason, He gave me this gift. What was the sin was what I was, or was not doing with this gift.

I believe that I have been very blessed in my life, showered with gifts, and in response to those blessings I want to do something in return. That something is to serve God’s people (we are all God’s people, even those that believe in some other form of God, or that believe in no God) by using the gifts that He has given to the best of my ability. The sin that I had been committing was not putting on women’s clothes, but in not using this gift to serve others. Being transgendered is not a sin. What we do or don’t do with it can be a sin.

Now my wife and kids know that I’m transgendered. My wife is accepting and supportive. My kids are at various levels of accepting and supportive. And I’m still trying to figure out how best to use this gift.

Veronica,

When I was in my early college years, I had everything all figured out - especially my moral positions. Everything could be neatly categorized as moral or immoral. As long as I didn't allow anything to fall into the gray space, it was easy to keep this up. Sex outside of marriage - immoral. Crossdressing - immoral (even though I did a little on the side, condemning myself). Sticking with a strictly religious perspective - moral. Judging other people according to this taxonomy - perfectly moral again.

Then I encountered an event that changed my perspective forever. My sister had become pregnant out of wedlock and *was afraid to tell me* because she thought I would be too judgmental. I had to decide then and there whether to let love for my sister outweigh my need for clear moral positions. It turned out to be an easy choice that I've never regretted. This was the first of many such challenges.

The most immoral stance we can take, in my opinion, is to deny the real needs of those around us and ourselves, to focus so much on our theoretical moral taxonomy that we can't find room to focus on real love. Crossdressing is one of those realities that too easily falls on the immoral side, until we change that taxonomy so that real needs take precedence over religious pronouncements. There are many others, including cases like my prematurely pregnant sister (who has three beautiful grown children now).

There is good in many more things than I chose to accept when I was young, and perhaps you're in the same boat now. Open your eyes and learn to accept reality, and to appreciate the hurt that your own judgment can do to yourself and to those important to you.

Miriam

I don't think I can add anything to this thread that hasn't been covered already. Many many great posts.
My only words to you, since I am on the other side of the age spectrum from you, is that for most of my life I did things to make other people happy, I changed my plans for my ex-wife, my kids, my parents, school, work etc. It took a long time before I realized everything I do is to conform to everyone else's wishes or demands. Its time for some Bob/Bobbi time.
You need to do whats required in this world to contribute but you need to grow the person that's YOU. Be careful and take life as it comes. If you feel CD will harm your family then don't go there right now. If these feeling you have are more than a desire to wear pretty clothes then you should ask what is the deeper meaning and maybe you are really TS, and should become the woman you are.
Maybe some time with a therapist that is TG knowledgeable would be of help too.
Good luck, we are all here to help.

Hello Kiddo

Listen up.......... You are now part of a realm where confusion is rampant. Your morals are going to be your anchor. Don't throw away what your parents have given you. There's one recommendation I can give you.

..........Don't attach ANYTHING to your phenomenon.....NOTHING period.

Thera

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Originally Posted by Thera Home

Listen up.......... You are now part of a realm where confusion is rampant. Your morals are going to be your anchor. Don't throw away what your parents have given you. There's one recommendation I can give you.

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Thera, are you serious here? The best thing I ever did was throw away all the morals my parents gave me.

Annabelle

Veronica, you went further than I did wondering about my sexuality. I thought long and hard about whether I was gay. Decided not. But I was confused. That was before reading on here and other places about sexual orientation being seperate from gender identity and gender expression. Now I know I'm male, and straight. But a little femme in my expression. I've also found the joy and comfort of fabrics and clothes, that are at the moment, considered feminine.

Morality? I'm with whoever said that above, follow the golden rule, "Do unto others.." etc.

YOUR problem revolves around the fact that your family won't accept it ( according to you...who knows? ) And you don't want to hurt them. So build a little world that they can't find. When you start looking for someone to share the rest of your life with, test the waters with them. My GF knows, just being able to be around her in a skirt and stockings is enough for me.

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Originally Posted by CodeVeronica

I think after much investigation I can say that I am not attracted to men. I say that because when I was testing the waters, I actually felt... uncomfortable being held by him. And knowing that the possibility of going all the way scares me, maybe it truly isn't for me...

That said, having grown up in a conservative and relatively religious background, it stresses me how dressing can be viewed so negatively... I mean, I'll admit sexual gratification is part of why I do it. But just as honest, I'm quite comfortable lounging around at home just simply wearing yoga pants and a tee from forever 21 while maybe working on a paper.

I know this thought weighs some of us down.. so I guess what I'm asking is.. Is there a way to justify this action? I love my parents/family so much. And it'd kill my heart to see them saddened by me if they ever found out.. I don't mean for this post to be a moral attack if it sounds that way.. I'm jus trying to figure out how I'm going to go about the rest of my life. Is this even a moral issue that I need to concern myself with? Am I overthinking things? Question like: "What if I have kids? Will I be able to hide this?" make me concerned... I still have yet to form any solid conclusion on anything.

I'm just troubled.. I grew up in elementary and high school with the foundation that morality isn't subjective. That it is narrow. Maybe that is why i feel this way. However, in college, everything became relative (at least in my experience). I encountered a wide variety of people.

This post might become a touchy subject, but I can no longer reflect and wonder about it on my own. I need help.

Please lend me your thoughts. <3 If you have any questions about my background, to help me find an answer, or get somewhere, I'll be more than happy to answer them.

Thank you loves...

Additional Info:
- I do feel that dressing as Veronica is a part of me that will never go away. I've accepted her.

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Hey dear ,

I am not attracted to men and as Matia, I feel like lesbian, my gf is open minded and while she likes female visage there anatomical bits that she misses on common ladies, so we fit each other nicely. Just find a girl that embraces Veronica and be happy. I dont think there is anything amoral on expressing love and yourself the way you feel it !

About kids - i think times are changing just be the person that can be respected and good, it shouldnt matter what you like o wear or how you present yourself

I don't know how to help you feel better about the situation at hand. I typed several ways that I thought would probably help you feel better, but when I read through it again it sounded more like a moral lecture than anything and that is not what I want to do is lecture you on anything that you may beleive is a moral matter worth attending to such as having a family and hiding it from them. Do what you feel is right not what you feel is best or what anybody else beleives you should do unless you feel that it will benefit you in some way in the future as far as morality goes. This is why discussing things like this with a therapist is probably the best way to go or even close friends because any criticism I have learned is good criticism unless it attacks you as a person directly and then that is bad criticism. I have had several negetive critics in my transition, but in doing so have learned several important lessons that I would have never learned if I hadn't talked to them directly. The whole reason why depression occurs now a days is because people have stopped talking to people face to face and have taken to the internet where they beleive it to be a safe haven to say anything and everything about a person/s with out any reprocussions from such said person/s. Just by having face to face interaction with another who knows you and wants to help even if they don't give much back in return they are still concerned about you and as we all know... Love overcomes all. Just talking to someone who loves you and wants the best for you will help you with leaps and bounds just from a simple word or phrase. Hugs are always great to and do I love to give them!!! Giving a hug to another is the most amazing emotional form of support I have ever received or given. I get told daily that if I were to quit my job that I would be missed because people love my hugs and are thankful that I love to give hugs because it makes them feel better about the world and themselves. It's also thereputic for yourself just by giving someone else a hug helped me to understand that I'm not the only one that has problems and that by helping another through out the day it helped me in the long run. I hope this helps!!

Angela

Hey Veronica,

I can definitely relate to what you are saying more than any other post I have seen (even before when I just viewed the forum). I just started dressing again after quitting for about six years (during the best times to dress, my 20's!) and it was for some of the reasons you listed. I have started dressing again to appease my crossdressing urges to dress while trying to figure out how much I like dressing now since the last time I did it. Still trying to figure it out. But I do still have trouble with what you speak of, nothing has changed. I believe that although crossdressing may not be harmful physically to anyone, it can be harmful emotionally and that is difficult enough! I am in the closet and for anyone I know to find out would crush me and them emotionally. I do have the same questions you do and with a similar background to you I am sure and I think I need to reconsider my choices in relation to crossdressing too.

If I could give you any advice I would say to just keep it a secret and tell those who can also keep your secret. You can usually figure out who would accept and would reject too. As much as people say they don't care what others think...they do. You don't need to be a crossdresser to figure that out. So tell those who you think you can get a positive response from and will accept you and I am sure that will help you deal with it more. If you get negative responses it might make you feel more guilty and have a negative view on them which you shouldn't. Just know who to tell because the reality is although we understand crossdressing and scratch our heads asking why others don't it isn't much different because they do the same and wonder why we dress. Doesn't mean we should think any less of them, they have a different view as do we, that is life. Mainly, you need to control your urges to crossdress and don't get sloppy or you might get caught and no closet crossdresser wants that (maybe in fantasy lol). Consider it a hobby just don't make it a constant habit. Only other option is to quit like I did. But yeah...look I am back for now! Well, not sure if I have enough posts but when I do you can message me. I go to San Diego every so often. :)

Hope you resolve this and when you do please let me know and share!

Victoriana

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Originally Posted by Roberta Marie

Veronica,

What follows is my personal experience in getting from roughly where you are to where I am today, some 30 years later. There is also a lot of my opinion, and yes, there is even some mention of my own religious views. No one has to believe what I do, I don’t expect that. But it has a lot of bearing on how I got to where I am. I don’t know if hearing my story will help you determine yours, so you can take it with a grain of salt or hit delete. I do apologize for the length of my response. Once I get started, . . . .

There is very little sexual connection to crossdressing for me, although that has not always been the case. I started to crossdress when I was between 6 and 9 years old, before I had much of a concept of what sex was all about. It wasn’t until I started going through puberty that crossdressing started to have sexual overtones. But then again, for a teenage boy, what doesn’t have sexual overtones. As I matured into adulthood, the sexual ties to crossdressing gradually weakened, and now there is little connection between the way that I’m dressed and my sexual arousal.

Being raised in a Catholic household, I found out rather quickly that my predilection to wearing girls’ clothes was something that I needed to hide, and I had many of the same guilt feelings that have already been expressed. When I got married, the guilt was exacerbated by hiding it from my wife, and later from my 5 kids. I also hoped that I could hide this from God, although, by that time attending a Presbyterian church, I knew that that was not possible. It wasn’t until I was in my mid 40s that I started to gain some understanding of what it is to be transgendered (in the broad sense), and to accept it as part of who I am. But I still hid it from my wife and kids for fear of losing them.

At some point, after a lot of prayer and research, I came to the conclusion that there was no reason to hide my crossdressing from God. He made me this way, so He already knew about it. So I made a deal with God (or so I thought) that as long as crossdressing did not interfere with my relationship with Him it would be OK. But I soon found that it was interfering, and purged for the umpteenth and last time. After more prayer and study, it came to me that my crossdressing was not really the curse that I had always believed it to be. Rather, it was a gift. God created me this way for a reason, He gave me this gift. What was the sin was what I was, or was not doing with this gift.

I believe that I have been very blessed in my life, showered with gifts, and in response to those blessings I want to do something in return. That something is to serve God’s people (we are all God’s people, even those that believe in some other form of God, or that believe in no God) by using the gifts that He has given to the best of my ability. The sin that I had been committing was not putting on women’s clothes, but in not using this gift to serve others. Being transgendered is not a sin. What we do or don’t do with it can be a sin.

Now my wife and kids know that I’m transgendered. My wife is accepting and supportive. My kids are at various levels of accepting and supportive. And I’m still trying to figure out how best to use this gift.

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Bobbi,

Your journey has led to a realization that will allow you to be at peace with yourself and at peace with God. It took me many years and many purges to get to this point. Thank you for sharing your story.

For myself crossdressing was a vehicle I used to get in touch with myself and my feelings. It's really driven by deep feelings that have to be brought out and addressed. Once I brought my feelings out, I accepted them and made them mine. This , in turn, made me a full spectrum person. Now when I want to present en femme, I simply enjoy it but it's totally my choice of whether to do it or not.:)

Understanding and accepting your feelings gives you a hold on yourself and puts you in charge of your own destiny. Being in touch with both male and female feelings and energies empowers you to be a light onto yourself and you are beholding to no one.:)

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Originally Posted by CodeVeronica

Emotionally tired of how crossdressing affects me morally.. so I guess what I'm asking is.. Is there a way to justify this action?

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[SIZE="2"]From my perspective, it is patently immoral to ignore your own needs, or your own desires for an interesting, healthy, and somewhat challenging existence. Even though we do not share the same upbringing, I know all about outsiders, or those who don’t feel the same as you, trying to influence your behavior by way of antiquated precepts or current interpretations of same. I don’t blame them for trying. Time is short, and everyone is wondering what might be the best way to spend one's time whilst alive. Since the well-trodden path of procreation and gender division is obvious to all, it takes courage to deviate and seek true individualism. As far as I’m concerned, being YOU is far better than being someone else, and being interesting, or different, is infinitely preferable to a life of “correct” expectation. Sacrifices have to be made, of course, but, at the end of the day, you’re standing on your own two feet, definitely NOT in someone else’s shoes…

However, to nearly everyone you will encounter, you’re engaged in an immoral act, or action. You are willfully not in conformity with accepted principles of right and wrong, or contrary to the moral “code” of the community, or not in conformity with the accepted standards of proper sexual behavior. My answer to this will always be, “So what?” Someone has decided, apparently for everyone’s benefit, that a male dressing in women’s clothing is essentially the person, namely the crossdresser, failing to make a distinction between right and wrong, i.e. the choice everyone expects you to make for the good of society. Society is never concerned with the individual, or the needs of the individual, even though the status quo often gives birth to, or inspires, a desire for deviancy. In short, I make my own distinctions about what ideas of “right” and “wrong” may encompass, but, as you say, it can be emotionally exhausting…

There was recently a thread about “shame” being part and parcel of MtF crossdressing. Even here, in a supposedly friendly atmosphere, morality, whatever name it may take, rears its VERY ugly head and tries to injure those who are doing something benign and natural. Is that a moral thing to do? I don’t think so, but morality (along with lack of education and/or an appreciation of reality) is at the heart of the overall “problem” with crossdressing, MtF variety. As far as I’m concerned, life is for living, life is for experimentation, and life is for expression, as long as you have something you wish to express. To a lot of people, especially those who are bound by dogma, expression itself may be immoral – it’s not for the public good, meaning it’s not a useful tool for the advancement of civilization. I disagree with that. True individuals are exalted, usually posthumously, and they, not the moralists, drive human evolution forward. You are a true individual, Veronica, and you should skip all the headaches about morality…

Do what I do. Then again, DON’T do what I do. Just keep doing whatever gives you pleasure. I haven’t spent one second worrying about the moral consequences of my supposedly deviant lifestyle. Aside from the crossdressing, which is allegedly immoral by proxy (tried in absentia, I might add), I am a moral person. Crossdressing is just folded into the human soufflé called Freddy, and I do the right things according to my own conscience. Grafted to this foundation of morality, and growing outward from it, how can I ever think that my beloved crossdressing is immoral? I choose to crossdress - I have to do it, but I really don’t have to do it, if you know what I mean. I must express something, and wearing women’s clothing aids me in my expression. You ask if there is any way to justify this action, and I would answer that, in your case, an expression has to be made, lest ye perish. The death of an expression brought on by desire, however inexplicable it may be to those in the dark, is an immoral injury brought on by those who fear what you do not fear. I don’t think these moral justifications are justified, or needed – just keep crossdressing, according to your OWN precepts, and be happy…

Sorry this is so lengthy. Sometimes I get wound up…:doh: [/SIZE]

Folks,

I'm going to put my moderator hat on for a moment and remind everyone that posts about very specific religious scripture do belong in the religious section, to keep threads like this one from becoming derailed. These posts have been deleted from this thread. Please feel free to step into my parlour in the Religious Forum if you'd like to discuss those matters but seeing as how Veronica mentioned that she comes from a religious background to give context to her main points of her post (about morals, which don't always stem from scripture) and not to make it the whole purpose of her thread, I'd like to keep this thread in the main section free of religious discussion and on topic for Veronica's question of morality in general.

Veronica, if you would like to continue exploring the religious aspect of your morals, please do join us in the religious forum and post with us there.