Problem With Police

Well today I experienced something very odd. I live in Scotland and find that people here are pretty tolerant. However, today I was out and about for a drive just minding my own business when I was pulled over by the Police.

The reason for pulling me over was the owner and insurance details were showing as a male and they were concerned I was a female driving without insurance. Once they realised I was the person entitled to drive the car they then said that I better not leave the car in a public place or I could be charged with Breach Of The Peace and Causing Fear And Alarm. They then warned me if I was assaulted in public they wouldn't probably help as I would have been provoking a reaction.

Then to add icing to the cake they said my details would be placed on the police national computer with a note saying I cross dress.

I am not out to my close friends and family and some of them are in the police, what happens if they decide to check if anyone they know is on file? This is not what I would have expected of police in Scotland. it made me feel so demeaned! :sad:

I cant even think of anything to say on this. That is absolutely ridiculous. I live in the US so I dont know how the laws are over there but I wouldnt have thought they would be anything like that. I would suggest researching your laws to see if they can actually do this or if they were lying.
Im sorry :(

I'm certainly no expert on the law in Scotland, but this doesn't sound proper. I think I would request an interview with the senior officer, chief or whatever, and ask about these particulars. This could be a case of a couple officers showing their dislike of cd's and hoping to scare you off. The Breach/Causing alarm sounds a bit phony to me, at least concerning a cd.

Leah

How were you dressed is my question. If you were in a mini skirt and 6in heels maybe they thought you were a hooker.

That justification they gave for the stop is utter nonsense. I sincerely doubt that the police ran a check to see if your vehicle was registered to a male or female driver. If that were the case they'd have to run a registration check on every car they encounter to see if the driver matched the registration? Sounds like deliberate harassment to me.

I agree Kim. Op it is probably a good idea to go talk to the chief(?) of whatever department it was that pulled you over.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tracii G

How were you dressed is my question. If you were in a mini skirt and 6in heels maybe they thought you were a hooker.

---

I was just dressed casually in leggings and a hooded jumper.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kimdl93

That justification they gave for the stop is utter nonsense. I sincerely doubt that the police ran a check to see if your vehicle was registered to a male or female driver. If that were the case they'd have to run a registration check on every car they encounter to see if the driver matched the registration? Sounds like deliberate harassment to me.

---

In Scotland we have ANPR camera's so the details flash up of every vehicle that passes, I have no doubt for the reason they pulled me over...it was just the rest that left me baffled

OK I'm glad you were dressed just like any normal lady.
Sounds like harassment to me.I can see the police checking if you had a moving violation but for all they know that "woman" could have been your wife or GF driving your car.
For all I know that may be against the law in Scotland.

I'm sorry that happened to you. I am thinking they were a couple of jerks, having their kind of fun.

I had a similar encounter in Dayton Ohio about twenty-five or so years ago.

It sort of doesn't surprise me if you were driving over near toungue or one of those far north west towns.
Sometimes I think they have not caught up with the present.
It may all be down to your presentation and reaction to them pulling you over.

Hi Amanda, Please keep us posted on what happens next.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by amandaroberts

They then warned me if I was assaulted in public they wouldn't probably help as I would have been provoking a reaction.

---

I find this particularly unsettling. What are they going to do, get some popcorn and watch?

- Becky

I don't even know what to say. I hope it was two <insert expletive>'s doing what those type of people do. While I don't know what I'm talking about I would find it shocking that it would be illegal there. *checks his notes to see if Scotland is a theocracy*. I'm so sorry you had to endure this!

Hug
Rita

I am a police sergeant in the US so I don't know much about laws in Scotland. First, if crossdressing in the UK is legal then the officer can't charge you for breach of the peace for being out in public. Second, if you are the victim of a crime then they have to treat you as such. I checked online and Scotland has victim's rights laws similar to over here. It may have been the officer just didn't like someone who is transgendered. Contacting a supervisor may help. Again, I don't know the laws in Scotland so I may be wrong.

ANPR cameras only flash on a plate when there's a problem with the vehicle. No insurance, MOT etc. This was deliberate harassment. Talk to the chief officer and explain what happened. The two officers on question will likely recieve a reprimand. I would also make a complaint to the IPCC who are more likely to investigate than the chief.

I don't know about Scottish law, but in Canada, chances are high the officer would have breached our Charter of Rights, which provides, among other things, for freedom from discrimination on grounds of expression, subject to reasonable limitation. The reasonable limitation clause generally applies to hate crimes.

It strains credulity that the charges of "Breach Of The Peace and Causing Fear And Alarm" fit your situation. The `provoking a reaction` bit is victim-blaming, IMHO. It`s just an excuse not to act.

Probably homophobic or transphobic police officer(s) who should be hauled up on the carpet for their actions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by steph1964

I am a police sergeant in the US so I don't know much about laws in Scotland.

---

Well, the US inherited its commonlaw system from the UK... :) There aren't that many differences.

Basically, for criminal offenses, there has to be a statute stating the offense, and then there's a whole series of judgments that clarify what the statute means.

Does such a statute exist in Scotland? How separate is Scotland's government from the UK? The US, being federalist, has the US government as superior to state governments, so if there's a US statute prohibiting discrimination against crossdressers, it would apply in every single state, even if a particular state has a statute outlawing such behavior.

Perhaps you should take this up with Lestrade.

If the police can pull you over simply because your car is registered to a male - if that's OK, then they should be pulling over every female wife or sister or friend who drives a care registered to a male to check their insurance. That is really BS. Also the threats made about leaving your car and not protecting you are totally improper. Were these guys really cops?

Sorry you experienced harassment. It may be very difficult to walk into a police station and speak to a supervisor. But you should do something, as others have suggested. Are there any advocate groups who can help you and perhaps represent you ? Maybe you can find a reasonable lawyer who might help. Good luck, Amanda.

I am appalled at your story,I have to say though you have came across a pair of arseholes in uniform,I hope you got a note of heir name's and numbers.Police Scotland and it's regional divisions all have Diversity Officers to deal with situations just like this.In this day and age where we are making advances all the time,the actions of these "officers" should be dealt with by their superiors.If you want you can PM me where your from ( I Can find out from my friend,your local Diversity Officer)I'm sorry this happened to you and was so demeaning to you

Sophie

Here's an advocacy group:

http://www.scottishtrans.org/

:)

The UK has no laws banning crossdressing, but apparently the charges he was threatening you with can be brought against crossdressers for somehow causing phlegmatic Brits to lose their composure. Still looking for Scotland in particular, since last I heard y'all were given back your parliament.

Breach/Causing Fear and Alarm? What's that about? :eek: I'm sorry about what happened. Keep us posted on what happens.

Maybe you might get help from groups like this:

http://www.stonewallscotland.org.uk/...we_do/2860.asp

http://www.spanglefish.com/swansofsc...?pageid=130200

Found this: http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Arch.../msg05588.html

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Mailing List Poster

A breach of the peace is not a public order offence. The "peace" in
Scotland (and until very recent times in England and Wales) is in
essence the normal state of affairs where people can go about their
lawful activity without interference by someone.

---

I'm thinking they interpret crossdressing as a breach of the peace in much the same way a flasher would be charged with it, and that's purely driven by social attitudes towards crossdressing and nothing inherently wrong with doing it. This charge has apparently been redefined in the less inbred (sorry, couldn't resist. Scotland is the Alabama of the UK) parts of the UK, or removed entirely. This is probably a charge that appeared in common law and there may not be a statute to support it.

The first time I was stopped by the police as Debbie was in Colorado Springs Colorado. This is the headquarters for conservative Christian broadcasting network program "Focus on the Family" hosted by Jim Dobson. The town also has 5 military bases at at least 4 top secret government installations. Furthermore, this was 1991, so there were ZERO LGBT rights and there was even a campaign for a constitutional amendment to the Colorado constitution that would "Guarantee that homosexuals and perceived homosexuals, such as cross-dressers, would be given no special protections".

When I was pulled over, it was because a suitcase in the trunk had knocked the tail-light loose. He took my identification, insurance and registration, and spent nearly 1 hour running and recording me as an official cross-dresser. When he came back, he explained that there were many cross-dressers who committed criminal acts, and since it's not easy to match identities, I had to be compared to others matching my general description. They checked city records, state records, FBI records, and NSA records. At some point, they hit someone who checked REX's file, and said "Be very nice to him when you apologize". I know why, but it was so classified they couldn't even tell the officer why he had to be so nice.

I politely accepted the ticket, got out to look at the broken headlight, showing off my very short skirt, very long legs, 4 inch heels with ankle straps, and satin blouse, and checked the tail light. It took three seconds to move the suitcase and fix the tail light. I asked him "Do you need to give me the ticket for probable cause?". He said yes, and then made a note to the ticket that it had been fixed immediately. When I went in to pay the fine the following day, they cut it in half and eliminated all the points.

A few years later, I had to fill out a security application, and they asked about any aliases. I realized that I had been asked for my femme name, and so I had to provide all of my male nicknames and female nicknames. Rather than being rejected, they realized that if I could be transparent about that, I could probably be honest about anything else. Furthermore, they realized that I had kept it a secret for 30 years, so I could probably keep other secrets as well.

Off topic slightly.!Is it normal practise for Americans to bad mouth or criticize other nations as a matter of course.Maybe stick to the facts before labelling us as backwards or uncivilized,you would I'm sure be quick to berate us if we treated the U.S. in the same manner

t-girlxsophie: The literal answer to your question is "yes".

I want to point out that I also said that Alabama, a state in the US, also has that reputation. So does Arkansas, Tennessee, well pretty much all of the old confederacy (Tennessee technically stayed with the Union, but it was a slave state). So it's not like I was failing to relate or identify. That relating and identifying seems to have failed to reciprocate.

Classic! We never know what's going to happen in such situations. It may be a nice copper or a jerk. Our only hope is that it doesn't happen in a remote aera where there is no other people to witness. I'm glad you got away safely.

Just unbelievable, I say go after their butts, then again you may be opening a can of worms and opening the door for future harassment and disclosure of your cd activity. A fragile situation to be sure. Sorry this had to happen to you. I still say you should somehow report their actions, perhaps you can do it and remain somewhat anonyms.

I don't know about the UK, but in several cities and states here in the US it is still illegal for men to be dressed as women in public, but thankfully the laws aren't enforced anymore except for when the police want to be super jerks like that clown in Ohio a few years ago.

Hi Amanda,

I am sorry to hear that you felt demeaned but I completely understand as I would have felt this way too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by amandaroberts

Once they realised I was the person entitled to drive the car they then said that I better not leave the car in a public place or I could be charged with Breach Of The Peace and Causing Fear And Alarm.

---

Ok, this, to me, is just BS and more about them trying to scare you. What does leaving your car parked in a public place have to do with Breach Of The Peace and Causing Fear And Alarm? Hundreds of thousands of people in Scotland leave their cars parked in public places every day.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by amandaroberts

They then warned me if I was assaulted in public they wouldn't probably help as I would have been provoking a reaction.

---

This is just nonsense. CDing is not illegal in the UK so clearly, we have a case of police discrimination IMO.

I agree with others that have said that you should go and get some clarification on the laws of what they "claim" is the law. I'm sorry to say I think this is police victimization.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by amandaroberts

Once they realised I was the person entitled to drive the car they then said that I better not leave the car in a public place or I could be charged with Breach Of The Peace and Causing Fear And Alarm. They then warned me if I was assaulted in public they wouldn't probably help as I would have been provoking a reaction.:

---

WHAT!!! This does not sound right at all too me. It sound discriminatory. Oh, what about the drunks that disturb the peace at a bar. Sorry, you were there at your own risk, you know what can happen in those places. How about the wife that calls for her husband beating the crap out of her? Oh sorry, you very well knows what happens when you get married. This guys aren't cops, they're idiots. :Angry3:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Amymonroe

as a former police officer and current CDer i have never given anyone a hard time about how they are presenting. some of my coworkers when out and away from the public will joke around with it but in the end they are professional about it.

---

Amy, that's the difference between A professional Police Officer and a Keystone Cop.(Typical Bubba)

as a former police officer and current CDer i have never given anyone a hard time about how they are presenting. some of my coworkers when out and away from the public will joke around with it but in the end they are professional about it.

amy

Thanks for all your support, this is the first time I have ever had any dealings with the police so I just took what they said to avoid any repercussions. Whilst they were telling me all the potential things I could be charged with I was certain it was incorrect, but I am not a confrontational person and had been made to feel so embarrassed I just wanted to get out of there as quickly as possible (without speeding lol).

For anyone that knows Scotland this was in a town called Irvine which is only about 40 miles from Glasgow so a fairly built up area and not some rural backwater so that's why I was so surprised by the attitude of the officers.

In Scotland we do have different laws to England and this sometimes can make it a bit more difficult when trying to find out about certain laws and who to complain to as the IPCC only deals with complaints in England and Wales.

I am also worried that if I do make a complaint and it ends up in court it could attract attention from the media and/or have an adverse reaction to how the police may treat me in future. I may just try and see if I can use the "data protection act" to see what data they hold on file for me and go from there....not sure if you can do that though.

I live in SW Iowa and like to dress when I'm traveling for sales. I like to go to parks and be in public. I like to do this in Iowa and Nebraska. Is there any laws I need to worry about?

Thanks

Dear girl, I believe your fundamental issue is whether or not you're ready to out yourself. If you fight this, you will out yourself to all you know (or at least have to assume this in making a decision). If you fight it, you'll be fighting the Good Fight and so forth. And if you're outed BY FIGHTING it, you may find yourself in a really good situation with those close to you.

That's for you to determine, of course.

Here in the US, the various associations that challenge laws and take them to the supreme court are careful about choosing which cases they will take on. They choose based on what will win according to their agenda. It's worth it for you to use that lens in determining what to do next. If you feel this is a fight you can wage, out yourself to everybody you know in a good way in the process, and ultimately win, then your course of action should be obvious. If anything along the way is missing, or questionable, and you don't know what to do about it, you may be better off reporting it anonymously to someone who cares but may not be able to act because it's anonymous.

I'm obviously biased towards fighting, so please reread my post filtering out the bias. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by amandaroberts

I was out and about for a drive just minding my own business when I was pulled over by the Police.

The reason for pulling me over was the owner and insurance details were showing as a male and they were concerned I was a female driving without insurance.

---

This cannot be the reason, the number plate recognition system used in Scotland is the same as that in the rest of the UK and doesn't have access to insurance companies. Besides which, you don't have to be the owner of the vehicle to have valid insurance to drive it. Unless you had given them reason to stop you, I call BS.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by amandaroberts

Once they realised I was the person entitled to drive the car they then said that I better not leave the car in a public place or I could be charged with Breach Of The Peace and Causing Fear And Alarm. They then warned me if I was assaulted in public they wouldn't probably help as I would have been provoking a reaction.

---

If they said that, you should have taken their number since they were declaring an intent to fail in their duty. Even if an officer believes you to have provoked an assault, he is committing a criminal offence if he allows that assault to continue. This does not ring true so far.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by amandaroberts

Then to add icing to the cake they said my details would be placed on the police national computer with a note saying I cross dress.

I am not out to my close friends and family and some of them are in the police, what happens if they decide to check if anyone they know is on file? This is not what I would have expected of police in Scotland. it made me feel so demeaned! :sad:

---

Unfortunately, there are virtually no limits on what police can record under the heading of "Intelligence". However, any officer who accesses that record for personal reasons is committing Gross Professional Misconduct and is liable to disciplinary action up to and including dismissal with or without criminal prosecution.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DebbieL

The first time I was stopped by the police as Debbie was in Colorado Springs Colorado. This is the headquarters for conservative Christian broadcasting network program "Focus on the Family" hosted by Jim Dobson. The town also has 5 military bases at at least 4 top secret government installations. Furthermore, this was 1991, so there were ZERO LGBT rights and there was even a campaign for a constitutional amendment to the Colorado constitution that would "Guarantee that homosexuals and perceived homosexuals, such as cross-dressers, would be given no special protections".

---

Fortunately, Colorado has changed an awful lot since then, as I learned from a Denver PD Captain. All police officers in the state should treat CDs with respect as the gender they present as. Gender identity is treated the same as sexual orientation for the purpose of banning discrimination in housing and employment, and we are explicitly permitted to use gender-segregated facilities like restrooms according to the gender we present as.

A Facebook friend of mine named Nancy-Jo Morris (from the Springs, in fact!) was instrumental in getting these laws passed. I and all the other Colorado sisters owe her a great debt of thanks.

- Amy

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rachel Morley

Ok, this, to me, is just BS and more about them trying to scare you. What does leaving your car parked in a public place have to do with Breach Of The Peace and Causing Fear And Alarm? Hundreds of thousands of people in Scotland leave their cars parked in public places every day.

---

Hi Rachel. I think the police were referring to Amanda exiting her car in a public place. In other words, they were saying that driving in public while dressed wouldn't result in a charge (Breach of the Peace), but walking around in public could.

I live in the UK - England, not Scotland. I have to admit I don't know the laws, regulations as well as perhaps I should. So I can't speak with any authority on the subject. But what happened to Amanda shocked me. It's never happened to me personally, and I have often seen cd's walking around Manchester and London. Never would it have occurred to me that they (or myself) could be arrested just for being outside. I hope that what the Police said to Amanda isn't true. One thought did cross my mind though - I wonder if the Police were being deliberately rude/intrusive in order to provoke a reaction from Amanda, which would then have resulted in her arrest. Amanda, if I were you, I would be very tempted to look deeper into this, and then take it further.

Have you got any paperwork detailing why you were pulled up, if so it should contain the number of the officers. Then you write a letter to the local area commander this will be on the police scotland website, copy in the chief constable, his name is Stephen House.. Detailing why you were pulled over and tell them every thing including the threat of you committing breach of peace, which I find is a total nonsense. As for their overall attitude its bordering on the homophobic, I thought that they all go course now on to handle these sort of situations. If you're not satisfied with the answer write a letter to your local MSP, out lining your problem, last resort is to threaten legal action under Human Rights Law. Just had a look in a law book Breach of the Peace is a wide term and is left up to the officers in question, so techinally they were right in their talk to you.

Sorry if this doesn't help, but still complain about their attitude.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by t-girlxsophie

Off topic slightly.!Is it normal practise for Americans to bad mouth or criticize other nations as a matter of course.Maybe stick to the facts before labelling us as backwards or uncivilized,you would I'm sure be quick to berate us if we treated the U.S. in the same manner

---

Sophie - No one bad mouthed or criticized or berated Scotland, or any other nation. I think everyone is simply appalled at what appears to be a inappropriate, harassing police interaction. It does not matter where it happened - it shouldn't. The vast majority of our police officers, in the US, UK, Canada, France, Italy (and the many countries represented on this site) are professional and helpful - there are a few that are not. That is what everyone has shown concern about.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by amandaroberts

They then warned me if I was assaulted in public they wouldn't probably help as I would have been provoking a reaction.

---

This lopsided mentality reminds me of that Canadian constable who inspired Sl*twalk. How convenient it is for police to transfer responsibility to the victims, huh? What a shame.

it's very possible and probable that they pulled you over because they like pulling over attractive women. Then they made up the rest as they went along. If this is the case, they were also surprised (and let down) that you turned out to be a CD.

Amanda, I´m disgusted by the attitude of these police officers towards you, and I agree 100% with the advice given by Dominique. As for a possible breach of the Peace charge, the law and case law here is wide and varied, but I rather doubt if any such charge would stick, if only because of the need to demonstrate that your conduct would have caused alarm to any reasonable person who witnessed it.

Irvine is certainly not some backwater swamp, but law enforcement there is obviously somewhere in the late 19th century.

In four words - go for the throat!

This is one reason I always carry fresh donuts with me in the car when I'm out en femme.:battingeyelashes::)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kate Simmons

This is one reason I always carry fresh donuts with me in the car when I'm out en femme.

---

.............................:heehee:............. ..............

Scotland is a tolerant, liberal country, but no place in the world is completely free from bigotry, even in its law enforcement. At least once a year there is a major incident involving utter thuggery from the UK Police towards members of the public who have done nothing wrong, sometimes resulting in the death of someone who has simply been in the wrong place when an officer lost it. To be fair to the Police they are trying hard to weed out the bad apples (they just have some way to go), and it might well be that the Chief Constable of Police Scotland would welcome a letter as Dominique recommended. If you have their numbers, I suspect this type of observation will not be the first of its type to be made to their superiors. Yes, a Police officer can arrest you for almost anything as 'Conspiracy to disturb the Peace', but we have a Procurator Fiscal (public prosecution) service that would throw out a charge based on cross-dressing (on its own) as ridiculous - it is unlikely even to get past the sergeant. This is a country with a strong tradition of justice - it is probably a good few hundred years since the mob burned anyone here.

I have not been to Irvine dressed, or Tongue but I have visited both and people there seem as nice as anywhere else in Scotland (Tongue looks a lot nicer, though). Please do not judge the people of Scotland or Police Scotland by these oafs. They are the ones disturbing the peace and equanimity of our lovely country. By the way we have not been 'given' our own Government. We voted for it - we 'formed' our Government, and equality and diversity form - as in the UK- a key policy area.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Leona

Well, the US inherited its commonlaw system from the UK... :) There aren't that many differences.

Basically, for criminal offenses, there has to be a statute stating the offense, and then there's a whole series of judgments that clarify what the statute means.

Does such a statute exist in Scotland? How separate is Scotland's government from the UK?

---

Murder is not under statute in the UK, it is case law based. Manslaughter is on statute.

The Procurator Fiscal is responsible for the prosecution of crime in Scotland, as it has a separate legal system.

The Parliament in Scotland has many devolved powers but is limited in scope. Tax raising being one not devolved.

Rebecca

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by amandaroberts

........Then to add icing to the cake they said my details would be placed on the police national computer with a note saying I cross dress......

---

This is discrimination on any level. However, unless you want to out yourself, complaining to the old Bill might not have the outcome you wish.

I'm not an expert on the law (finished my law degree 7 years back) but an entry on the Police National Computer that you cross dress would be exactly the same as saying you are to be referenced as homosexual or any other pejorative term you can think of. Basically, and I am prepared to be corrected here, this will not happen. You would have to be cautioned or charged for details to be recorded, and gender choice / preference is not on the list I'm afraid. Essentially, you met 2 @****...full stop.

Any Scottish Police here? Your input greatly appreciated I would think.

Rebecca

There must be a police complaints commission or similar in Scotland. I'd put in a complaint.

All police are evil and poisoned with power.