I have gotten bad looks or vibes from gay men I just don't understand why the hate. I feel like we should support our community but they see us as if we are not authentic. I hope someone can give me a clue on what's going on.
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I have gotten bad looks or vibes from gay men I just don't understand why the hate. I feel like we should support our community but they see us as if we are not authentic. I hope someone can give me a clue on what's going on.
Maybe it is where you live. Texas appears to be a world apart in how they treat people. I love all my gay acquaintances, old, current and yet to be met. They always treat me well and are so much fun to talk with. They may not understand why I am me, but they really don't care. Have you talked with them? If you do, just give them your opinion about how you feel and give them a chance to reply. Better yet, ask those that give you the stink eye. You may be surprised by their answers.
I haven't really experienced any real hate from gay men. As far as I know, the 'typical' gay man is about as knowledgeable and accepting of transgender people as any other cisgender person in general. There's the LGBT community of course, but most gay people I know aren't really actively involved in that.
As Zylia said in the comments here I have also not experienced this...
Thanks maybe its just the local community then because my spouse spoke to a few gay friends she has and they were telling her all kinds of negative stuff about the way we are. Then we attended a party where they were also present and I got got stinky eyed and bad vibes. Just wondering why they would question my spouse why she would put up with me. Thank you
While I am not sure that I agree with your premise the reason that, at least some, dislike us is the simple fact that most of us are not, in fact, GAY. In the eyes of this group we are "weird" heterosexuals and are thus suspect at some level.
I have never had that experience. In fact, the last time out, a gay man sitting next to me at dinner was happy to chat about any old thing. His partner was chatting a way with a few women and a cross dresser.
thats easy "Because we look better"
Hahaaa, that's funny maybe hunn
Natasha, You are making a strong generalization. A question for you? Why are you generalizing? Just because you believe something, doesn't mean it is everywhere.
Jodi
I'm guessing that gay men in your community have to work hard to legitimize themselves, and a lot of that depends on not sticking out too much. Then we come along and attract attention (because we're beautiful!), which makes people uncomfortable, but since they don't understand the distinction between GI/CD and sexual orientation, they direct their transphobia at the gay men in the community, who then distance themselves from us and join in so that they might continue to maintain their hard won social stature.
Not all gay men hate CDers or transwomen. However, most of them are indifferent to us. They're looking for guys, not women or CDers.
I used to hang out with a lot of gay guys and girls at an LGBT square dancing club, and I never experienced any kind of hatred. Several of the guys were very cute and I was attracted to one but he sort of brushed me off, politely, and I came to realize that most gay men aren't interested in crossdressers - they're looking for men! But they were all very polite and respectful.
Dianne, I hear you, but ..... Just because someone is gay or lesbian does not mean that they are always "looking" for someone (guys or girls). They are human beings and interact with others, gay, straight, trans or whatever every day. Most of the gay and lesbian bars and clubs here in SF always have straight singles and couples, plus maybe a few of us under the "T" umbrella too, in attendance looking to have fun by drinking, conversing and dancing at the clubs. Now if most of our CD/Trans interactions take place on their home turf, i.e. gay/lesbian bars or clubs, then they just might be looking for someone. I go everywhere and encounter them everywhere and their reaction has always been the same regards to carrying on a civilized normal conversation. They do it as a normal human being and talk about normal things for the venue and topics of conversation. Again, your results may vary depending on where one is located.
My best friend is gay and finds cross dressers disgusting - awkward. I'll leave my opinion as to why in the words of Edmund Blackadder (and an annoying song). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11gtw0dGuAA
I've found that the gays I encounter generally accept me in a somewhat indifferent way. I wouldn't think the gay community would hate us considering their fondness for drag shows (a club close to me has drag shows and all the drag queens are gay... go figure).
What does puzzle me somewhat are the large number of hetero men who fantasize about us (in a carnal way).
Allie,
Yes, I probably should have clarified that. Gays just out and about in their normal life would probably treat trans people just like anyone else. However, my experience was at a gay bar, and it was the type of bar where almost everyone there was definitely looking. I have no idea why my friend thought it was a good idea to go there.
I've never had any problem with gay males here in Austin, TX. I go to a local gay club (Bout Time II) about once a week as Ceera, and have always been well accepted there by everyone - CD's, Drag Queens, Gays, Lesbians or Straights.
Thanks for the clarification Dianne. One of my regular wine bars is in the Castro, gay central, in San Francisco. In that particular bar there are some gay hook ups happening (more often they are there on first dates, I know because I ask them), as well as every other type of clientèle just looking for an enjoyable moment out in a neat place, and that includes tourists, straight, lesbian and others. However, almost next door and around the corners are several gay clubs with that same mixture of people, with a lot of the gay men obviously looking for their next hook up. At times I enjoy going there to dance and watch the eclectic group of people. Sometimes I talk with whoever is standing or dancing next to me and other times I dance with a cute gay man or boy when they ask me. I treat it as all fun and I think that they do too when asking me to dance, and I am not a bad dancer either!
I really do believe that it depends on the location and maybe make up of a particular gay bar. I also believe that sometimes we tend to put incorrect thoughts in others' minds without ever talking with them to confirm our suspicions. Since I am extremely extroverted I usually start the conversation with them with great results. If I was more introverted or shy, then maybe I would have a different opinion. But I am not and all my experience is the close and personal conversational type.
Your absolutely correct I shouldn't be generalizing because if a few treat me that way doesn't mean they are all the same. I'm sorry but the question was simply to find out if others in our community are going through this. Thanks for the correction.
Natasha,
I'm wondering if gay men find CDers more confusing than women do ! A CDers sexual preferences are wrapped up in a strange package to many people , they don't all come over as effeminate men and yet they don't attract the attention of many women ! So what exactly do they want and what are their needs ? I tell my wife clearly what my preferences are but she just answers that she's not a lesbian !" Looks like we're back to autogynerphilia again !
My own thoughts and are probably more a misconception, that in a male homosexual relationship one partner is usually more submissive and effeminate and I wonder if that's where some people think the idea comes from when they ask if a CDer is gay ?
I guess gay relationships are like any other in that they're all different ! Some of us are in workable CDing relationships and some aren't, I guess gay men can also be CDers but their partners may have the same feelings of approval or not as a GG does !
I'm not sure where we stand but I suppose you are correct that perhaps the gay community has different views depending on what gay partner or spouse you ask but if that's the case then more input is needed from both sides of that relationship. I have a friend who is a lesbian she ones told me that she is not really attracted to cross dresser a or transgender. But would love to help us in anyway she can with fashion or advise but that made me wonder we have a long way to go to figure out how many variables are in each community. This may be something to start researching because we are generalized in one batch and that umbrella may just be a Canopy. lol
I never met any gay people who hate us, but the few I've spoken with about it have mentioned that they believe that we're really gay but just in denial. Especially because a whole lot of us claim to be straight, but admit to finding the idea of dating or having sex with a man exciting while we're en femme to be a smokescreen of sorts, and I understand why they feel that way. It's not hate; but they feel that we deny our homosexuality because we believe it to be an awful thing, as we do everything we can to deny it, and it's the belief that we feel it's a bad thing that irritates them, because it's who they are.
I have been to many gay bars and frankly I've never encountered any attitudes from gay men.
I don't know anyone personally who's gay that dislikes the T of LGBT but I have seen some commenters online who have a dislike of us. I think thy feel we undermine them since they are sexuality and we are gender.
I have 2 very supportive gay friends, and 1 Lesbian friend. Their attitude is that we endure "coming out" and stigmas together so it's easier to be supportive, like in return I am to them.
Sarah x
Just my bit of advice. Quit worrying about stink eyes and bad vibes. Treat others the way you would like to be treated. I think you will convert those bad vibes and stink eyes into friends even if they don't like it.
Move to New Orleans - I assure you, you'll be VERY popular! :heehee:
Where are you in Texas? Here in Dallas, some gay people get transgender people, some don't. I live in the heart of the gay district in Dallas, and have for the past two years I've been in transition. My experiences here have been very good so far, and I feel the community here is, overall, very accepting and supportive of us. Far more so than in other parts of the area.
You didn't specify in your posts, but was your wife talking to gay men or gay women? It might make a difference. Most of the gay men I know here have been great to me, even if a lot of them don't understand I'm not just a really frumpy drag queen or a super-charged version of a gay man. (Some of them really do get that I'm a woman.) Other people I know who are actually CDs (I'm not - I'm transitioning), haven't had problems as far as I know, and in fact some of the bars down here are frequent destinations for CDs. Some guys will be interested in you, some won't.
Some gay women don't like MtF trans. Actually some gay women are extremely hostile to all trans, both MtF and FtM. That said, the gay bar most often picked as a destination for CD excursions here in Dallas is Sue Ellen's, a lesbian bar, and there must be a reason for that. I doubt a male identified CD would have much luck in a lesbian bar, but some of us who transition can sometimes get a date once in a while. (There are issues with that that aren't on topic - or usually really just one issue in particular.)
There are gay men who don't like us either, but I haven't run into much of that personally.
Depending on where you are, it may simply be that there aren't enough CDs / TGs / trans* for the community to have much experience with us, or perhaps they feel a strong compulsion to "pass for straight" because of prejudices in their area. Dallas, Austin, and Houston are great - the rest of the state? Oh hell no.
BTW, if someone looks at me and says "I don't know why the 'T' is included in LGBT, because y'all aren't about a sexual orientation", I make two points to them:
1. Stereotypes aside, a lot of us are gay, lesbian or bisexual. So we belong in the club for that reason alone
2. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend..." The people that hate transgender folks generally also hate gays, lesbians, and bisexuals, and many of these folks do not distinguish between us.
It can happen but is not the norm....is very simple Some Masculine Gay Guys dont like Fem or flamboyant Gay Guys and since crossdressing is such a mystery for everybody , they just assume you belong to the second type.
Some of my (Michelle's) best and most supportive mainstream friends in Australia are gay. Beautiful and accepting people. Must say that I haven't experienced any hate from anyone in all my outings.
A few of my gay male friends don't quite get me but they are never mean about it.
I have one that enjoys me in girl mode and we do lots of things together as a regular looking couple.
I haven't been to our local gay bar en fem, since I was 22, but it's good folk, and it's time Summer caught back up with the times.
That said, it was pointed out to me sometime ago that there was at one point a lot of hostility towards the B people too. Some thought it undermined the 'born that way' argument and detracted from the political equality agenda. Could be some of that going on there; we're even confusing to ourselves, and we've been invisible for a lot longer than LGB...
Gay vs straight can be just as black and white as boy vs. girl for some. I think Kinseys kinda blew that thinking out of the water a while back tho, at least for me...
I worked with a gay man who seemed to hate everyone who wasn't also gay. A nasty person.
On the other hand I have known and worked with gay men (and women) who acted just like anyone else towards other people. Stereotyping gay people is no better than stereotyping black or white people. We are all different and unique.
I don't think its true. I just walked down my High Street, dressed in ladies shorts, ladies T and sandals, and passed a gay guy wearing ladies shorts and ladies vest ... I don't think he even "clocked" me.
So how do you know when you've passed a "gay guy"? The ones I have known personally looked just like straight guys. It's only once I got to know them that I found out they were gay. Same with lesbian women.
I have found that most gay and lesbian people blend in with society pretty well.
I have to chuckle! Years ago I went with my wife to a so called Gay Club in Southampton - The Magnum, it was called.
Couple of drinks later she had to go to the toilet, leaving me, scared to bits with the rest of the crowd. No sooner had she gone, a pleasant chubby little man sidled over and said " Do you ever go cottaging" I said "Whats that?" He said, "Stop being coy. You know, going round the public toilets. To see what you can pick up"
I told him that there is NOTHING in a public toilet I would ever want to pick up"
He said, "Sorry Darlin' - buy you a drink?" He did, and we chatted for a while. Bad mistake but nice gesture!
Maybe some blend, but others are obvious. How many straight guys walk down the road hand-in-hand with a male friend?Quote:
Originally Posted by Krisi
Gay men are just that "gay men" who are only interested in other gay men sexually. CD's can be straight or they can be bi or they can be gay and love to dress. So as a CD we definitely have more options don't we and more fun too, I think!
Thank you all for the great feedback I need to extend my circle of friends and go out more. lol
I think most people associate with people similar to themselves. I've noticed over the years most people will be courteous to others in a social or business setting, but, will express their dislikes or confusion in private. I see no reason why a gay man or a lesbian should understand a cross dressing man any more than a straight man or woman. Heck, I don't understand myself. Many times the media has reported on disagreements between peoples who suffer discrimination. Because one segment of society has been discriminated against does not give rise to automatically supporting another segment suffering discrimination.
I have come across gay men who don't appreciate cross dressers but I have not seen any hateful behaviour. Just lucky I suppose.
I have almost never encountered hostility by anyone from the LGB part of the TLGB-community.
And never from gay men.. the rare occasion that there actually was the less than friendly stare.. was from a lesbian (probably a TERF) and from a couple of MtF's who were transitioning (probably thinking I was not taking 'it' as seriously as they were).
The problem isn't about being transgender, it's about being a closeted CD who thinks nothing of intruding in gay spaces that people have literally died to make safe. I know that sounds a bit dramatic, but that's just how it comes out of me sometimes. (my people do love their drama)
I was an out gay dude before, ...'the change', and I can tell you that closet cases definitely make me uncomfortable. Perhaps I'm just projecting, because I was once a closet queen myself, but the whole idea of hanging out with the queers in private but denouncing them in public has never sat right with me. Even when I was doing it.
I don't have a problem with gender benders or part-timers who are openly supportive of gay and/or transgender rights. I understand that people may feel more comfortable presenting as a man for work or whatever. People do not have to 'pick a side' when it comes to gender presentation, and people like me, and the average gay dude can spot the genuine article a mile away. You can be 'closeted' and still be an ally who likes to party on the DL.
My enmity is reserved for those who are openly NOT supportive and who may in fact even be openly hostile to my people (queers and dykes), yet still want to be accepted and protected in our safe spaces.
This forum is populated by CD's who will punch you in the face if you call them gay. That's not a person I want to let into my circle of naughty irreverent nutcases.
This makes so much sense, thank you for this perspective! As hetero-identifying men, many of us CD'ers still hold heteronormative and homophobic ideas, and I can see why some gay men are reluctant to welcome that into their safe places.Quote:
Originally Posted by Badtranny
Whoa...! Really... Gross generalisations are not entirely the province of bigots and haters then...??? :doh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Badtranny
I don't think you really meant that - Melissa - because while I have encountered pockets of intolerance here (and not just from CDers) I actually believe that most folk here, regardless of their nature (CD or TG/trans) or sexual orientation are accepting and tolerant. Probably not dissimilar to most gay folk that I've had the fortune to meet.
You have the opportunity to rephrase or retract... :waiting:
As to the OP - I think she's made it clear that ANY generalisation is fraught with the same issues as your own - they only reflect the instantaneous reality of the individual, not necessarily the broad experience of the whole...
:)
Katey x
You are wrong Natasha V, or at least your statement is incomplete. It should be, "Everybody hates crossdressers". A sad fact, and the answer is simple, people is stupid, that's all.
Can't retract because I've read the comments myself. I didn't say all or even most but we're all fooling ourselves if we want to pretend that there aren't closeted CD's on this board that get very unhappy with the idea that people may think they are gay. Are they in the minority? Not in my opinion. The fact is that MOST crossdressers are closeted for one reason or another. MOST of them are straight or profess to be. MOST of them don't identify as gay or as part of the gay community.Quote:
Originally Posted by Katey888
In my view, any man that dresses like a woman and wants to be addressed as one is as queer as folk, and I don't mean that as an insult. Queers are my favorite people, but the queers I know, are proud to be who they are. People outside of the community think being called queer or dyke or fag is an insult but that's only because they use those words as insults. It's quite telling really.
I stand by my submission that the gay community doesn't appreciate those that eschew us during the day but want to party with us at night. Nobody enjoys being someone else's dirty little secret.
I agree with you. Most of the folks on this forum could quite accurately be described as heterosexual queers. (Most of the ones I know really are straight. I know, right?) Many, but not all, are too afraid of losing cis / het privilege to be out. It's understandable they are afraid, coming out is fraught with risk and loss. Coming out is hard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Badtranny
Although I don't judge anyone here because I understand all too well the fears they face, and the losses they risk, I believe the closeted nature of this community harms it greatly. And I can certainly understand people who've stood up to oppression and risked all not appreciating someone who is too afraid to make a stand for themselves, but chooses instead to ride on their coattails.
A lot of that goes on here, and in the broader crossdressing community. And it needs to stop.
There are CDs here who are out, and brave, and who've risked quite a lot really. But they are notable because they are rare. I respect them.
And it isn't that I lack respect for everyone else - it's just that I've met so many CDs who seem so freaking miserable because of their double lives. Believe me, I know that pain. They are only hurting themselves.
Don't feel totally bad about this. There are gay / lesbian folks who just hate transgender people on general principles. And believe me, there are a fair number of homophobic transgender people. I spend a good amount of time pointing out to homophobic trans women that most of them are, in fact, lesbians. Boy are they surprised!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tristessa
Part of the reason this stuff happens is because we internalize our fears about gender / sexuality, turning them inwards on ourselves, and that often results in doing rather negative things to others to prove "oh I'm not like them at all!"
I am in a 12 step group very Friday which is a LGBT meeting. Most members are gay men. At first I felt some tension from some of the men. I started going early in my journey and I had not decided to fully transition. I also disclosed I was bi but was monogamous with my wife. I am not sure which fact, being TG or bi, caused some tension.
What I found was that as I shared my story and listened to their stories, we found common ground. I truly feel that almost all of the men there are in my corner pulling for me to live an authentic life. Yes gay men may empathize with our struggle to be us but not fully understand our plight. It is up to us to love and educate them as we try to form a community with them.
I agree with Bad Tranny that it doesn't help when closeted straight identifying CDs only interact with the gay community at night in a dark bar. I too used to be a straight identifying man that only interacted with gay men in a sordid dark way outside my regular life. I don't want to be that person anymore. The shame is harmful for everyone, me and the entire LGBT community.
One final point. I realized at SF Pride on Sunday that I am on the verge of becoming a member of the L part of LGBT. I was walking hand in hand with my wife celebrating the Marriage Equality ruling when it hit me that we will legally be 2 women who are married soon! I had a big smile on my face !
Suzanne
Perhaps the generalization that gay men hate crossdressers is a product of your own internal transphobia