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This is for anyone to answer, but if you do, please stick to my question and don't get into politics, religion, haters, bigots, backlash, etc. concerning "bathroom bills".
The setup: a state passes a law requiring people to use restrooms consistent with their birth sex.
Question: is it really enforceable? How?And who does the enforcing?
Have you heard or read (in the law or media) about the enforcement mechanism?
The enforcement would most likely result from a complaint by someone in the restroom that is that biological sex and subsequent security involvement. There will never be a "bathroom police", that would be too costly.
No idea, but if you have a sticker in your bag that declares it an ALL GENDER bathroom, and you stick it over the normal sign when no one was watching, surely that would make it okay?
Attachment 260362
I am of the opinion it would be enforced on a complaint basis. Maybe even if someone is lurking near a restroom, they may get checked out by security. Even after the HB2 was adopted here in NC I think it will be business as usual. If you were presenting as the opposite sex and used that restroom, and did not cause a stir I feel you would be fine. :2c:
I've not heard of any mechanism for enforcement. As Cheryl said the "potty police" would be too costly. Most likely someone would have to rat on you and file a complaint if they want to go that far. :)
I read an article that said the North Carolina law contains neither enforcement guidelines nor does it specify penalties -- I understand the police and universities are still trying to figure out what to do about it. I don't know about the other laws. It seems like in many cases the legislative action was to roll back regulations that allowed transgender people to use their bathroom of choice and didn't really replace them with anything.
(It'll be fun seeing how long this thread lasts.)
Well it's not meant to be enforced ... It's just there so when someone decides to make a stink, that the mall police have a reason to call the real police, and that the real police now have a justifiable reason to take you into custody.
Legalized harassment in other words. Just to make sure we know we're not welcome.
Also all the political stuff, which is the real impetus of course.
Just going to the bathroom at the mall not so much to worry about.
But say you have a job and the employer knows you transitioned.
Or you are in school and they know what your birth certificate says.
Or you use a gym where they know you transitioned.
Then it become a bit terrifying to think about.
if you hassle someone is a public rest room, it has alwyas been against the laws.
The new laws are just more fear mongering aimed at painting TS/TG people as people who should be feared.
It's blatant pandering to homophones.
As pointed out there is no way to enforce such laws.
Tell that to the transitioned women who are forced to use the men's room at work. Now there is law on the employers side.Quote:
As pointed out there is no way to enforce such laws.
lets say your red as a CD, squealed on and cited do you now have to register as a sex offender because if your cited youd be guilty for not having the correct part #,
id like to see it enforced and what consequently happens after but i would not wish to be that person, in my state they had cases where folks who simply could not hold it and got caught relieving themselves outside and cited for urinating in public had to register for the sex offender list, the way it is written lawyers are gonna have a field day with this....it just wont stand the test of time, but anyone who gets caught in its wake i feel for you....
There is no enforcement mechanism or penalties associated with the NC bathroom law. If a complaint was made to a police department, and if the police department responded to the complaint, and if the reported "offending" person is still in the "wrong" bathroom, there is no requirement to arrest or issue a summons.
I think this is the NC statute. Read it for yourself: http://www.ncleg.net/Sessions/2015E2...e/PDF/H2v0.pdf
I believe it will be very difficult to enforce but as have been said it's going to require someone to complain. I'm waiting for two things someone to complain that a man brought his young daughter into the bathroom with him, we know it happens and the first time a guy who's dressed as a women complys with the law and goes into the men's room and gets the crap beat out of him. Can you say lawsuit NC . This stuff is all so crazy
Let's not ignore that the recent restrictive NC bathroom law was a foolish reaction to Charlotte's transgender protection bathroom law which was also impossible to enforce. Because you simply pass a law, are you really going to be safer or more accepted? Bathroom laws generate a lot of ill will and accomplish little.
I spoke with a security guy at a Walmart and he said they have been told not to do anything at this point as far as he knows in N.C.
Here in Ky he said the cost to hire more security isn't the problem its more of a problem denying a persons civil rights.
He did mention since all this came to light not one GG has complained.
I asked him if he personally cared or if there was a store policy against trans people using the room they identified with and he said no of course not.
Short answer: enforcement of such laws would be largely based on vigilantism by cisgender people in or around the restroom.
My opinion, based on talking to my fiancé, who is a licensed police officer, is that a law enforcement action is unlikely. It's more likely to be enforced by your fellow citizens. It would have to go down like this:
1. Someone calls to complain
2. The police show up and somehow the trans person is still in the bathroom (most of us would leave once people start harassing us.)
3. They ask to see the person's ID
4. If the ID isn't consistent with the restroom they are in, they are asked to leave, ticketed, or arrested depending on the law in force at that time, until they provide their birth certificate, or whatever documentation is required by law to establish their birth sex. If their ID is consistent with the restroom they are in, nothing happens, because there would be no evidence they aren't who they say they are.
The reality is that unless this were a high level misdemeanor, the police would be unlikely to take any official action, and if they did anything, it would be to ask the trans person to leave the restroom. They would only be likely to show up in such a situation if they were already at the location by coincidence, or there were reports of a more serious disturbance or altercation.
So unless you are unlucky, it's probable the worst case in terms of law enforcement is you are asked to leave. You are likely to be humiliated by the whole thing.
The more likely enforcement mechanism is you are embarrassed, harangued, and possibly assaulted by one of the other occupants of the restroom, or someone just outside of it. This is MUCH more likely, and a whole lot more dangerous. This might also the be "more serious disturbance or altercation" I mentioned above - the trans person getting the hell beaten out of them by other occupants of the restroom.
On a happy fun note - these types of assaults on trans people by others in the restroom happen quite frequently. Even in places where there are laws protecting the trans person's right to be in the restroom. When the law says we don't have a right to be in those places, it is more or less saying "open season on trans people in restrooms." This is reinforced in versions of these laws by offering a bounty or reward for turning in a trans person who is using a restroom not corresponding to their birth sex.
Exactly because using the bathroom you identify with has never been a problem in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tracii G
Public Facilities- Laws are basically not enforceable.
Private Owned Facilities i.e. small office less than say 25 employees- varies state to state but likely these will be sticky wickets to deal with.
Texas allows the building owner to create their own policies if they so desire to, reason I know this is that there is a C-Store that has posted a sign on the Women's room door saying NO MEN ALLOWED IN WOMEN'S ROOM. (Didn't slow Lauri down, I went on in and and guess what no problems, the clerk even thanked me on my way out of the store and I did not purchase anything) Technically I broke the law, but short of someone complaining, the law getting called, it's all just noise they are making about nothing.
I think that hits the nail on the head. No retailer is going to want the legal headache involved with this. I predict that if someone complains to security, it will be handled quietly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tracii G
I have a question that's a little out of left field, how does this legislation effect cleaning staff? I used to have a job as a cleaner on a caravan park and never had any issues with regard to cleaning the ladies restrooms, though I did have the standard policy of knocking on the door before I went in and left a sign outside saying "male cleaner inside". Will cleaning staff have to abide by their birth gender when it comes to their job? What about law enforcement for that matter? It would seem an odd irony sending male law enforcement officers into female toilets to arrest a someone with a different birth sex. I find it funny that some European countries have unisex toilets, it makes me wonder if there is legislation that specifies the requirement for separate facilities for men and women.
Francesca - Bathroom laws that exist provide for cleaning, helping someone who needs assistance, maintenance and emergencies.
It will be enforced by women's big, protective husbands outside the washroom.
I assure you every encounter like this will end badly.
If some lady assaults me in a ladies room thats an assault charge I will get away from her call the store security and file charges.
If its some male watching a ladies room with intent to harm me out of some sick twisted idea he has in his head I have no problem dealing with him at all.
What a lot of these bubbas think is we are sissies if I have to use a word for it and forget we are still guys and still able to stomp a mud hole in somebody.
Thats why I really don't worry too much about some guys because they can rarely back up their big mouths.
Its only enforceable with a complaint and the other issue is if you are Stealth you won't get a complaint unless you show your privates are do something that attracts attention. I know of stealth CD's and TS that do not cause any attention but if you look like a man in a dress and a wig you will likely get cited are and a complaint.
Its unforunate that looks will dictate this but its real.
Nicole,
I can't see it being enforceable , UK police don't have the resources , I'm sure US police are the same. The problem is if someone does make a fuss and makes a call, I would still think most people will ignore it as a stupid rule. Some people play safe and use the disabled facility which has to be unisex, so will you be breaking any laws then ?
I have seen people arrested for using the restroom.
Depends on call priority of the police.
In west Hollywood the police won't enforce that but it certain areas and places its strictly enforced.
Paula, those supposed "big protective husbands" wouldn't care about laws or lack of laws. If your scenario were realistic you'd already hear of TG people encountering these situations regularly. They aren't. You're just spreading groundless fear.Quote:
Originally Posted by I Am Paula
Consider the number of GGs who have masculine features. Do they get challenged? Of course not, because challenging them would be be embarrassing for an individual and lawsuit-inviting for a business.
I'm 6'2". I stand out. People remember me months after a single encounter. I have some hard-to-hide male features. I use restrooms in a wide variety of situations. I stand in line when I have to, chatting with the other women because they want to chat. How they perceive me I cannot say, but I have never had anyone question my presence in the least, either directly or via a "big protective husband."
Now, I'm just one person, but it's logical that if there were a serious problem I'd have encountered it at least once in five years of being out and about.
Thats right Eryn.
I have waited in line too and never had one lady complain but have had ladies ask me questions which I was happy to answer.
Had one ask me to help get her hair untangled from an earring.
Had them compliment me on an outfit as well. All have been very nice.
I have been out and about often over the past several years. I have never encountered a problem using the the ladies room. But the recent spate of bathroom bills and the accompanying rhetoric makes me concerned. As the saying goes, the profit or loss is in the margins. My concern is that there are a few more that will complain, confront or, even, enforce because they are now backed by a specific law that confirms their viewpoint where in the past they had no such official backing. It will only take the marginal few to change their behavior in a marginal way to make life significantly worse for some of us.
I fully expect these legal setbacks to be challenged and overturned, eventually. In the mean time, we have been put at increased risk of running afoul of the law and vigilante type justice.
Stephanie
There will be an male bathroom officer at the entrance of every girls bathroom looking up dresses and skirts!
Speaking of bathroom attendants, who checks your gender? If a male attendant checks in the ladies room I imagine there would be a few complaints from GGs. If a female attendant checks and the customer turns out to be male there might be a complaint about groping.
The thing that people seem to forget is that ANYONE can be challenged. What that means is that a genetic woman who looks a bit androgynous and is wearing male-leaning clothes could possibly be challenged. Remember that there isn't anything necessarily logical about this and it has already happened.
DeeAnn
This is really borderline because there is a specific thread for the law in NC. That said, keeps it general (no specific states or laws after this post) and stay in the rules.
So do what the OP asks, OK?
If anybody has not read this on Facebook:
A post from Steve Runden of Texas:
"I'm the father of a 21 year old daughter.
There are lots of things I worry about:
I worry about her being sexually assaulted, because that happens a lot.
I worry about her being the victim of a drunk driver, because that happens a lot.
I worry about her being the victim of gun violence, because lots of people die from gun-related injuries.
Here's what I do not worry about:
I don't worry about her being attacked in a restroom by a trans woman because
(a) it has never happened; and
(b) trans women are the most victimized group of people I've ever met, and the least likely to commit a crime of indecency in a restroom, because they are afraid of getting beat up when all they want to do is pee.
And here is something else I don't worry about:
I don't worry about my daughter being cruel and inhumane to trans men, women or kids, because my wife and I have raised her to have values and because she is a kind person.
There are things to worry about. and then there are things people want you to worry about to conceal their agenda of discrimination and hate.
Wake up."
Awesome...
(Modified for ease of reading)
How to enforce it .. hmmm ... let's see ...
1. You have to present your original birth certificate, then
2. They do an on the spot chromosomal smear, so every rest room has to have a microscope
I'm sure they thought of that ....
To be fair, the NC law does not apply to businesses -- apologists for the law frequently point out businesses can set whatever policy they choose. The law only applies to government-owned places -- schools, universities, court houses, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tracii G
Transsexual goes to restroom.woman has daughter in restroom see this complains and the transsexual is beat up badly. It was on every news outlet.it was once a mc donalds and the TS had a birth certifcate change and doctors letter.did not matter to the mother of the daughter.
Even GG women with a few prominent masculine features have more feminine features usually that people mostly don't question them.
There are so many bathroom incidences with transsexuals in the paper i could post them for weeks.it happens regularly but its just now being brought to discussion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eryn
meanwhile while waiting for the permit to use the facility ,you of course can no longer hold it any longer -------Quote:
Originally Posted by Claire Cook
[SIZE=1]- - - Updated - - -[/SIZE]
well said .
Quote:
Originally Posted by elita
Elita, ignoring the OP request and mod warning, your post mentions gun violence, getting beat up, hate, etc. And nothing on topic- enforcement. Head-scratcher.
I asked the question because after thinking about it, I couldn't imagine how enforcement is possible short of bathroom monitors using the Crocodile Dundee method. As DeeAnn pointed out, when someone is wrongly accused of breaking the law, bad things will happen. The more vigorous the attempt to enforce, whether "official" or vigilante, the greater likelihood of trouble.
I suspect there will be intentional civil disobedience (sounds redundant, sorry) in order to challenge the law. Given that there isn't really an enforcement mechanism, I wonder how hard someone will have to try to get arrested. We'll see.
Thanks for your comments.
You posed a good question. From reading articles concerning the law the local law enforcement agencies and attorney generals of municipalities really do not know what to do either. I haven't located the actual article, but, it appears the law in North Carolina is a civil law, not a criminal law. The law contains not civil penalties. There is a lot of head scratching. I know in my municipality, if a person is unruly in a mall and the police are called, the police can issue a citation barring the person from the property. The short coming of the North Carolina is there is no penalty for violating the law or so it appears.
Under a normal law that is written with some forethought in order to enforce the law first the police would have to witness the crime, such has stopping a DUI driver and administering a blood alcohol test, etc. Or, if the police are not present to witness the crime, then a police report would have to be routed to the local district attorney for review for prosecution which normally requires assigning a detective to the case to interview witnesses and gather evidence. Depending upon the nature of the crime and the jurisdiction an order to appear in court to answer the charges would be issued. Or an arrest warrant would be issued. Some jurisdictions based upon the severity of the crime would have to convene a grand jury in order to establish probable cause to issue an arrest warrant.
In Washington State when laws are passed it is stated whether the violation of the law is some level of misdemeanor or felony or civil in nature. And, the law establishes the penalty. Drive a certain number of miles above or below the speed limit and you get hit with a civil traffic citation. Drive way over the speed limit and you are driving into a criminal violation.
From the articles I read the local police departments are scratching their collective heads. The police cannot really arrest a person if it is not a criminal offense. Will the proprietor of a store take a person to court for using the incorrect bathroom and obtain an order barring you from entering the business?
The law is a knee jerk reaction to some perceived non existent problem.
Jennie is correct in as much as the NC law applies only to government facilities. The law annotates which classes of people are protected from discrimination and discriminates against classes by omitting them in the list. As to a violation of the NC law, what would be the consequences of a government employee using the "wrong" restroom in a government office? And, what would the consequences be for a visitor using the "wrong" restroom while at a government office on official business? We'll have to wait and see if a transwoman or transman is evicted from the stall by an onsite security guard or an employee is dismissed?
Lori, it's hard to not mention specific states because I do have an article from a reporter who did ask specific police departments how they would enforce the law (the OP topic) and this happens to be in NC. This reporter called police departments in four different NC cities.
---------------------------
LOL, I love it! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachelakld
This is what NC police departments told Mother Jones reporter, Samantha Michaels, when she asked:
Raleigh Police Department: "That's a very interesting question. We don't have police officers sitting at public bathrooms all day long," a spokesman said with a laugh.
Greensboro Police Department: "We would respond if we received a complaint. It's not like we would be standing guard at bathrooms," said Susan Danielsen, a spokeswoman for the local police department, also suppressing a laugh.
Wilmington Police Department: spokeswoman Linda Rawley said the law struck her as strange. "So that means people have to go to the bathroom with birth certificates? Yeah, that was curious to me."
Asheville Police Department: spokeswoman Christina Hallingse noted, "We're not checking birth certificates. We just don't have the police power to be able to do that in bathrooms."
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/...b2-enforcement
I think you're spreading groundless fear too. First of all, there are so few TGs compared to all the people out there who aren't TG, that it is outside of most people's radar. People just don't think about it. And GGs in this country are not in the habit of bringing husbands with them wherever they go like in the Middle East, so it's not going to happen! And also because people are not on a witch hunt for TGs, GGs aren't going to be constantly vigilant and stare down everyone who is in the bathroom, looking for the slightest clue this person is XY. The TGs and CDers that I know who do go out in public dress to blend and are not out there looking like drag queens. And last but most important, a lot of women truly don't care! You don't seem to realize this and you think that everyone is on a witch hunt.Quote:
Originally Posted by I Am Paula
Besides ... these laws affects government offices and schools and not the private sector so the victims here are TG students while they're at school and TG government employees while they're at work. But even so, check out the Media section for the latest ruling by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 4th Circuit, which ruled in favor of a TG student under Title IX. This affects several states including one that has just passed a bathroom law.
and this proves the stupidity of the law makers to create a law that can't actually be enforced. These "laws" are for grandstanding politicians.
If the police were actually called AND they responded in time to actually meet the trans person exiting the bathroom, I promise all that wold happen to the accused is that they will be asked if they are ok and to have a nice day. No police force wants to waste their manpower on this kind of crap. I'm guessing that reposes time by police will be measured in hours not seconds.
From what I have seen over the years, law enforcement is a bit of give and take and a lot of common sense on the part of the police.
If you are doing nothing objectionable but the letter of the law says otherwise then character analysis and any previous convictions come into play.
The laww is an ass but those who have to enforce it are human beings, just like us.
Here is what I have been thinking on this subject. What if someone goes into a restroom in one of these states where they have this law and someone in there thinks they were born the opposite gender. They go and report that person then who is going to actually check and see what gender that person is? What if it was reported that a man was dressed as woman and in the women's restroom and the police came and then checked and it really was a woman? The wouldn't the police be open to being sued for a violation? Before you say they could have a woman police officer check then what if the person really was a biological male? The same thing applies I would think. I don't know maybe I'm way off base but my wife and were thinking about that.
The enforcement of laws like this is extremely problematic. It brings to mind a recent article discussing the multidimensional issues surrounding enforcement of "no cis men" at certain gatherings.
http://the-toast.net/2016/04/18/ever...or-lgbt-people
Actually Sarah Beth, this has happened. I can't remember which state it was in, but a masculine looking woman was harassed for using the women's bathroom. Maybe someone else will remember the story and provide a link. I can't remember if law enforcement was called.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarah Beth
But I dare say that that people are falsely arrested occasionally, for all kinds of reasons not just gender-bathroom related. It does happen but for the most part, it doesn't.
As it appears that a citizen's complaint is needed to initiate things, my guess is that most people would probably choose not to get involved UNLESS there is something really suspicious looking going on or they are a zealot wishing to make waves and draw attention. In effect, in their minds they would be reinforcing the notion that the law was right all along.
Earlier I mentioned a scenario where a genetic woman could inadvertently be caught up in all of this. However, another variation came to me.
Suppose you're a trans woman who transitioned in place. When you transition was mostly completed, you transferred to a different division of your employer at the other end of the country. No one at the new location knows of your former life and you've been well accepted into the group as One Of The Girls. HR has vowed to be on lock down regarding the details of your former life, so you feel pretty confident that you are firmly entrenched in your new life. However, one significant thing that your documents still say M. This is next on your list of things to do, but it hasn't happened just yet.
Now, some may say that you can change gender markers earlier in the process, but anecdotally what I've seen here is that people tend to do it late or at the end of the transition process. Also, aren't there places that you can only make those changes when you are essentially finished with transition and places where changes are not done under any circumstances?
Anyway, you and 3-4 genetic women from your work group are sent to a conference in a state that has the kind of laws that are under discussion here. At a restaurant during a potty break, for whatever reason (and there's nothing that really suggests the circumstances of your birth), another customer decides to challenge your usage of the women's restroom. Remember that there is nothing logical about any of this, so thinking that you'll never get challenged is just not useful. So, the result is that in addition to non-matching information, you are now busted with respect to your co-workers. All the effort put into stealth has gone for naught. And, as is said about the coming out process, once you lose the narrative, you won't get it back...
The one that I had in mind when I mentioned this happened in a restaurant in downtown Detroit. As I remember, the woman didn't look particularly masculine, but her hair was fairly short. I believe she was wearing jeans and a flannel shirt.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
PS: You CANNOT change the gender marker on your birth certificate in Idaho, Ohio, Tennessee and Kansas.
DeeAnn
Nicole's basic question is about enforcement is not addressed in either the bathroom rights law or the bathroom restriction law which sparked debate. If there are no provisions for violations or arrests, there is no enforcement intent or ability. As already stated, these laws are symbolic and political, and don't accomplish much except controversy. Most of the anecdotes stated are hearsay and inaccurate. There are no mass toilet arrests being made. Unfounded fears and treats of vigilantism and bathroom attacks promote more fear. Lack of toilet paper and cleanliness are more important to public bathroom users than the attire of people using the facilities. Crossdressers will continue to use the bathroom they need to use and will more than likely only be limited by their own sense of discretion for others and fear of any personal embarrassment they may have regardless of the sign on the door.
Here is a real world example of a recent man in bathroom-related arrest:
A 6 year old girl enters a public bathroom and a man follows her in. She panics and screams. The man grabs her and tries unsuccessfully to silence her. He exits. Police are called. They identify him on surveillance cameras. He is subsequently arrested - for assault.
http://www.fox13news.com/news/local-news/86762439-story
People will continue to be arrested for crimes committed in public bathrooms - vandalism, loitering, drug sales - not for the attire they wear.
There was a transman who looked like a man but had womens hidden parts still that went into the woman's restroom and woman complained there was a man in the restroom. Police responded and verified that it was a FTM transman.
So the women were uncomfortable and had to deal with it.
There was a TS in the news that looked like a woman but in the women's stall would standup to do the duty like a man and a complaint was filed and they were arrested several times for the same thing and as a result is on probation.
The young Turks talks very thoroughly about this issue and gives a great response.
How Police Will Enforce Transgender Bathroom Ban
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...om-enforcement
Arbon, thirty years ago in Western culture, just about everyone would have been fired for transitioning. It is taking time for companies to change their policies and now, most Fortune 500 companies have comprehensive policies that do support transition.Quote:
Originally Posted by arbon
Smaller companies are following suit (according to the stories I've head in the TS section of people who are successfully transitioning on the job), but it is taking time. If a company fires someone for using the women's bathroom it is not because of bathroom laws but because they disapprove of transitioning, period. But increasingly, there is more and more protection:
http://transgenderlawcenter.org/wp-c...inal012414.pdf
https://www.aclu.org/know-your-right...people-and-law
It's just a question of time before these anti-TG bathroom laws are found to be unconstitutional. And we are still increasingly in better shape than it ever has been.
Reading this thread, a curious thought occurred to me.
How many GGs have had to use the men's room at some stage or other, because either
1. The queue in the ladies was way too long or
2. The state of hygiene in the ladies was not acceptable, for some reason?
I have often seen this, and the guys understood and were always respectful.
(Why is it that my take on a topic is always off-beat? Beats me!)