It's not just crossdressing.

A thought I had this morning while driving to work...

We often say women wear all sorts of men's clothes and are not accused of being crossdressers, or rightfully should be called crossdressers as the are wearing the clothes traditionally meant for the opposite gender. However, when they cross dress, they don't shove something down their pants to pretend, nor do they tape down their breasts or slick back their hair. When we cross dress, we change our appearance as well by adding breasts, a wig, hips, etc. There is a difference.

So, the term crossdresser doesn't deem to really describe the act, or it would seem inappropriate to say that women are crossdressing when they put on their hubbies shirt and pants, as they are not pretending to be that person or another male, while for the most part, MTF crossdressers do seem to change their persona when they cross dress.

Obviously this thought excludes WTM crossdressers who do attempt to be the other gender.

Clear as mud?

Julia

So true, so true, that's why you'll never see me on the "but woman x-dress all the time bandwagon". I think to many CD'ers try to look for any justification they can find for what they're doing, why they feel the need for it, I don't understand. Perhaps they're still grasping at "issues" of it all, which causes them to grasp at straws in order to feel okay about themselves. Very good point and very good thread, Julia.

Karen

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Julia Cross

...When we cross dress, we change our appearance as well by adding breasts, a wig, hips, etc. There is a difference.

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I agree. The term "crossdresser," which defines things in terms of clothes seems inadequate.

So what defines us? It isn't the clothes. Is it the fantasy of being female? If so, where does that come from?

Does "being female" symbolize something? Are there certain, specific feelings and experiences we seek, and which we associate with being female. If so, can we define these things more clearly? Can we obtain them without the "surplus baggage" of actually dressing or interacting in public as women?

Cathy

Hi Julia!

Thanks for posting this thread. I hate to say but I do get really exhausted when I see that idea come up and it often does when guys get irrited at what they percieve as a double standard. Also, in case people forget women have only been able to wear pants without hassell in the last 45 years or so . I know my Mom {who is roughly around age 56} actually got sent home from school more than once for wearing jeans to school. They cited inapropriate attire. Of course this only made her even more determined to wear what she wanted.

I went through my baggy clothes phase around 1991-93 where it was fashionable to wear plaid shirts and the grunge look was eaiser to emulate with some guys stuff. But when I bought some guy shirt and shorts I never thought of myself as crossdressing. I certainly did not go out of my way to appear like a guy.

I can understand why the double standard feels like a term that should 'fit' but the reality is most women who do wear/shop and buiy mens clothing do not have interest in actually emulating a male or trying to be accepted as one.

Very interesting concept. I do agree with it. My wife sometimes wears a shirt or sweater of mine and I don't think she is crossdressing. I on the other hand am a crossdresser and do try to change my appearence to be feminine.

...so perhaps wearing an item of clothing of the opposite gender that is truly meant for that gender is more inline with crossdressing whereas wearing an item less obvious, say jeans is not. Then again, i can't think of an item of clothing that a woman would wear of men's typical clothing that wouldn't be totally acceptable on her, whereas there are numerous items she has that are considered unacceptable for us to wear. Perhaps our styles are so limited and already have all crossed over that women can wear any of them but many of theirs have yet to crossover to men's apparel. Oh how confusing and frustrating. i just want to wear what I want to wear.

Julia

I agree with this in the context of practical fashion. However as Kathy pointed out (and I come from her mother's genre) that it was unacceptable in the 50's for girls to dress in jeans. In the end it was the media and fashion gurus who did make it acceptable and women jumped on the bandwagon in droves. It became the end of the Ozzie and Harriet and Donna Reid age.

I think this is important in an historical context only, not as justification.

The question that begs to be asked now is; What would happen if suddenly boys started wearing girls skirts and dresses to school? What would be the result? Would it be crossdressing or fashion? Would the fashion world start producing pret a porte skirts and dresses for men? Would society accept it?

No, there is a double standard and it goes much deeper than fashion I am afraid. Think of the responses given in another thread about the attitudes of women GG's about us as cross dressers. Can we say Ewwwww?

Just my opinions.
Kimberley.

The point is well taken regarding certain aspects of cross dressing (bras, breast forms, gaffs) , however, I am pretty sure that if you remove those couple of things from the equation the prejudice and double standard would still exist. If men wear dresses, more feminine hair styles, clothing, accessories, make up, nails and shaved body, I am afraid that the response would still be the same and the double standard would still exist.

Certainly using a gaff, bra and breast forms take CDing beyond what a woman does now when she wears more traditionally male attire, but I think losing those CD behaviours is not enough. There is still great prejudice against males dressing in feminine style.

The answer is in Kathy's thread. She said her mom had trouble dressing the way she wanted to dress(wearing pants), but this made Kathy's mom more determined to dress the way she wanted to. This is the same for men today, especially the younger men. OK, I understand the hardships older guys have trying to dress the way they want. But todays young guys can do what Kathy's mom did and be determined to dress the way they want. I know some will say but society doesn't like it and guys will get beat up if they dress in fem. Maybe in some rough parts of the world yes this could happen. But goths and punks have been dressing different for years, some goth guys do wear dresses and skirts. They take heat for this but they stll go on dressing the way they want. I am not saying that everyone can dres the way they want, but GGs can't always dress the way they want either. I have known some girls to be afraid to dress in a short skirt because the neighborhood was too dangerous, not all women are free to dress the way they want, some have fears of violence just like CDs have.

My neice wears men's shirts and joking says she is a crossdresser. The real reason is it is cheaper to get mens shirts cleaned at a dry cleaners than it does for woman's blouses. Reason is the pressing machine that most of them use is desgined for men's shirts. She can get her men's shirts dry cleaned for < $1 a shirt. Her blouses will cost her $2-3 each to get cleaned.

The problem here is that we have taken something one does (crossdressing) and and turned it into something one is (a crossdresser). We talk not about 'crossdressing' the activity, but about dentifying ourselves - and others - as 'a crossdresser'. No longer a means to an end, crossdressing has become the end in itself.

There are many reasons why someone might crossdress. That single activity, however, is not the sum total of what someone is. Technically, if a woman puts on a pair of men's boxers or BWBs, one could say she is 'crossdressing' - we would not, however, consider her a 'crossdresser'. If a man wears a blouse simply because he likes the colors, he is 'crossdressing' but not necessarily a 'crossdresser'. Why is that?

And yet, if one of us puts on a pair of panties, we are a 'crossdresser'. Why? What is it that makes the distinction?

It is the intent behind the action that makes the difference. As a rule, we do what we do not for comfort, practicality, or even sartorial creativity. We have an agenda, a purpose. We crossdress to present ourselves as women - or to express what we like to call our 'feminine' side - or simply because whatever we want to call ourselves, crossdressing allows us to express that.

Rather than say, for example, "I'm transgendered and I crossdress as a way to express that aspect of my persona." - we will say "I'm a crossdresser." The implication here being that the signifier 'crossdresser' carries with a set of culturally defines assumptions - much as 'man & 'woman' do - applicable only to a specific group of individuals - those gendered at birth as 'men' but who present themselves in a way traditionally associated with women. It is for this reason that women 'crossdressing' are not 'crossdressers'. It is not an appropriate label as it incorrectly signifies menbership in a group to which they do not belong.

Of course, this all works the same (in reverse kinda-sorta) for our F2M brothers.

In the end, it had very little to do with the actual clothes and everything to do with the message one trying to send.

Love & Stuff,
Donna

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Julia Cross

When we cross dress, we change our appearance as well by adding breasts, a wig, hips, etc. There is a difference.

Clear as mud?

Julia

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Nope, sorry Julia, myth busted. Lets say I don't have the time to "get all dolled up" as my wife likes to say. So, I just put on a nice feeling dress, maybe some earrings, other jewelry and perhaps a spritz of perfume on the wrists. No wig, no makeup, no breast forms, no padding, it's built in anyway. Am I not crossdressing? But, if I did want to go out and present myself nicely as a woman, I would include all of the above, except padding, again, and I would be crossdressed?

Where do you draw the line on what is and is not crossdressing?


All muddied up, for sure!

I think that we are trying to bercome the woman within and that includes wearing a wig false breasts and what ever to accomplish the image in our heads of the woman we want to be.

The more I dress and and try to find the perfect image I want the more I look like my Mother,sounds crazy but true.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Julia Cross

A thought I had this morning while driving to work...

We often say women wear all sorts of men's clothes and are not accused of being crossdressers, or rightfully should be called crossdressers as the are wearing the clothes traditionally meant for the opposite gender. However, when they cross dress, they don't shove something down their pants to pretend, nor do they tape down their breasts or slick back their hair. When we cross dress, we change our appearance as well by adding breasts, a wig, hips, etc. There is a difference.

So, the term crossdresser doesn't deem to really describe the act, or it would seem inappropriate to say that women are crossdressing when they put on their hubbies shirt and pants, as they are not pretending to be that person or another male, while for the most part, MTF crossdressers do seem to change their persona when they cross dress.

Obviously this thought excludes WTM crossdressers who do attempt to be the other gender.

Clear as mud?

Julia

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Bravo Julia. Very good points!!

Nice post, and can start a big debate. I for one, have been one of the people that posted that "women can wear mens clothes and not be ridiculed by society" and its a double standard.
I am not a full fledged dresser. I don't wear wigs, I don't wear gaffs, I don't pad, I don't shave my body or legs, and I don't wear make up.
I love to wear skirts because I like the "freedom" my legs feel rather then the constraining pants. But I only wear this in my house, and not when people are over. With them, I wear panties, again this is just a comfort thing as I have become used to the feel of them and not mens underwear.
With the skirt, I wear a mans shirt of any kind. Sometimes a "mans" sweater too. I'm often found with my hair a mess, and a days worth of facial growth.
So what am I?
One thing for sure, I don't fit into the full dressing category as most posters here... I feel like a black sheep in this forum because of that! :(

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kimberley

No, there is a double standard and it goes much deeper than fashion I am afraid. Think of the responses given in another thread about the attitudes of women GG's about us as cross dressers. Can we say Ewwwww?

Just my opinions.
Kimberley.

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Much deeper indeed. It's not so much the clothes that bothers people. It's the motivation behind the clothes. From my experience, people are much more accepting of crossdressing men when they think it's just a sexual fetish or done for entertainment. Plenty of high profile men in Hollywood have worn dresses and aside from the initial shock, no one has been bothered by it. Drag queens are privy to the same treatment. No one really thinks anything of them. They're just fun to look at.

That changes with crossdressers like us. We're not doing it to entertain others, so that pretty much baffles society. So many people are convinced that men have it so good in society, that "lowering" himself to the level of a woman is either just for entertainment or he has serious issues.

Now comes the real double standard. The standard is not in the clothes, but in the meaning for which the clothes had (or still have). For a woman, doning masculine attire (not imitating a male, but just wearing the clothes) is seen by society as an ascention up the social ladder. Something we as a whole usually applaud.

When a male dons feminine attire, society sees someone willfully giving up a high social position. They see a man debasing himself. And the fact we go through so much to be extra feminine, it just furthur proves to them that this goes beyond simple entertainment into the realm of deliberacy. And society doesn't like that. Especially in American society where many people have fought and died for the same rights and privileges of the prototypical American man.

Too put it simply, blacks, gays, and women all fought for the same position that the average American male was granted with. They look at the male crossdresser and think, "He has to be crazy to throw that away!" No one will admit to it, but that's what's really going on.

I remember one time about 23 years ago, I was at the enlisted mens club on a navy base wearing a pinpoint oxford pastel pink mens dress shirt. I thought the shirt looked very good on me. One of my shipmates joined me for a beer. During our conversation he interupted with "can I ask you a personal question?". I said, "of course you can". He then looked me in the eye and ask me why I was wearing a pink shirt. I was shocked. I did not know how to respond to this. I did not even believe that a person could view what I was wearing as feminine. I thought for a moment and replied, "it is a mans shirt and I thought it looked good on me when I bought it.

As for wearing womens clothes without hip pads and forms etc..., I just don't think I look good in a dress without my forms.:cheeky:

Perhaps if we were having this discussion 40-50 years ago the idea of women wearing pants, boxers, short hair etc would have been very different. Women were acused of being manly if they wore those things. Perhaps women choose to wear pants because they felt more powerful or capable or more protected. Could have been more comfortable or warmer. Anyway, I'm guessing they may have felt more masculine in a way.
Women wearing men's clothing has become normalized over the last 50 years and it doesn't shock anyone anymore. So, I'm not quite sure that it wasn't cross dressing of some sort.
I think there may a double standard in a way. Over all most cultures are for more repressive to men that cross the gender barrier than women. From what I understand about this, it's because a man giving up power and first class citizenship to become women or women like is a big issue to the MEN that make and govern the laws.
Most all countries have bigger penalties for gay men then lesbian for breaking laws. Gay men having sex may go to jail for 20 years and lesbian having sex go to jaif for 5 years...just an example.
I know many of you will say that is about homosexuality not cross dressing..but to most of the world the are in the same arena.
Just my opnion
Love to you all and thanks for the thoughtful posts..this is a great site
Rikki

I can see from this thread that many Crossdressers think of themselves as all the same. I am greatly offended by Karen's comment:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GypsyKaren

...I think to many CD'ers try to look for any justification they can find for what they're doing, why they feel the need for it, I don't understand. Perhaps they're still grasping at "issues" of it all, which causes them to grasp at straws in order to feel okay about themselves.
Karen

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I don't still have internal issues about my cross dressing that I'm still trying to resolve. It is no more and no less a matter of taste and "there is no accounting for taste," period. But here's the hitch. The only thing Crossdressers have in common is the fact that we cross dress. Even how each of us is motivated to cross dress is as different as a fingerprint. While there are similarities we are still all different.

I for one put on women's clothes when I get home from work. I find the change refreshing and relaxing. I have observed the same behavior in GGs. They come home and change from their dress into pants, etc. to relax and breath. The difference is GGs can wear the pants into public without giving it a thought. If I wear a skirt into public I'm a sissy and a Crossdresser and I must be gay. There clearly is a double standard in our society. Sorry to disagree with you on this one Kathy. But let me add, there are some CDers who are motivated to take their crossdressing to a point of "passing." The idea of that is fascinating and the fact is that there are both men and women who attempt cross dressing at this extreme.

The point I'm attempting to illustrate is that one cannot say that all Crossdressers are the same in their motivation and then exclude women who where men's shirts as not being crossdressers. To cross dress is to wear the clothes of the opposite sex whatever their motivation. If a GG wants to distinguish that they are not ever personnally motivated to pass as a man and some men they know are at times motivated to pass as a woman then I can agree but to group GGs and CDs into general catagories and then to make specific conclusions about that information is poor reasoning and it is hurtful. Noone can rationally deny that there is a double standard in our society.

I for one kind of enjoy that this is an important rule in our society. For a man to cross dress is one of societies best kept secrets. For that reason much is risked if a man cross dresses. Catch a woman in men's clothes - who cares. Catch a man in a dress - what risk! That makes cross dressing exciting for a man. While I envy women for being able to freely switch between men's or women's clothes in public I feel sorry for women that they can't experience the excitement men do crossing that line and pushing our emotional limit. Wow, exciting!

-Gwen

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gwen

...

I for one kind of enjoy that this is an important rule in our society. For a man to cross dress is one of societies best kept secrets. For that reason much is risked if a man cross dresses. Catch a woman in men's clothes - who cares. Catch a man in a dress - what risk! That makes cross dressing exciting for a man. While I envy women for being able to freely switch between men's or women's clothes in public I feel sorry for women that they can't experience the excitement men do crossing that line and pushing our emotional limit. Wow, exciting!

-Gwen

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My approach to crossdressing is a lot like this. What I enjoy is not passing for a female, but still trying to look good in female attire.

Perhaps if we were having this discussion 40-50 years ago the idea of women wearing pants, boxers, short hair etc would have been very different. Women were acused of being manly if they wore those things. Perhaps women choose to wear pants because they felt more powerful or capable or more protected. Could have been more comfortable or warmer. Anyway, I'm guessing they may have felt more masculine in a way.
Women wearing men's clothing has become normalized over the last 50 years and it doesn't shock anyone anymore. So, I'm not quite sure that it wasn't cross dressing of some sort.
I think there may a double standard in a way. Over all most cultures are for more repressive to men that cross the gender barrier than women. From what I understand about this, it's because a man giving up power and first class citizenship to become women or women like is a big issue to the MEN that make and govern the laws.
Most all countries have bigger penalties for gay men then lesbian for breaking laws. Gay men having sex may go to jail for 20 years and lesbian having sex go to jail for 5 years...just an example.
I know many of you will say that is about homosexuality not cross dressing..but to most of the world they are in the same arena.
Just my opnion
Love to you all and thanks for the thoughtful posts..this is a great site
Rikki

why do womens boyleg briefs (the ones that have the opening at the front and everything) look so good. Why do women even want to wear replicas of boys underwear. Why is there no male equivalent of this.

Boys (not men) often look feminine , a girl dressed in mens clothing , often looks like a young boy. Yet a man in womens clothing?

Who's to say in the next 100 years it wont change , it allready is . Moisterizing , having nice nails , hair products , hair dye and even make-up has become quite acceptable for men in the last 20 years.

This topic is bottomless , and i agree everyone is different.

As I get older and find myself dressing more, I've come to conclusion that its a non-ending argument to compare myself wearing a dress to a girl wearing jeans. The fact of the matter is I am who I am. I enjoy wearing a dress, and I enjoy being a feminine person. It's not an act of doing that makes me feel good, its an act of "being". For me it is a part of me that wants and needs to come out. If it doesn't I get quite frustrated.

So... I don't ponder the question anymore. I dress when I can, I keep it private except for sharing with my wife, and I've developed myself to the point where I can feel comfortable going out in public as a woman.

Victoria

As a bit of a dill,i swim in simpliity,therefore,,
I feel crossdressing is exclusive to men,there is very little fantasy or stress/confusion relief in fems wearing mens clothing.
As for for my desire to frock up,Iwas mean,t to be born female,I wasn,t so I make do...simple and honest.
cheers,falxx

Excellent points. I guess I crossdress as that is part of my who I am. I think that it may have something to do with both genetics and environment.

Gwen...

You say you are offended by my comments, but you don't bother to explain exactly why, so I'll take a stab and guess. I'm so glad that you don't have issues about your crossdressing, I never said everyone did. I also didn't just throw out something as a blanket statement, I said "perhaps", because I certainly don't know everything, it was something to ponder.

One of the most commonly used excuses I here about CD'ing is "but women wear men's clothes all the time." You haven't been here that long, so maybe you haven't seen it as much as I have. The point I was making is that I see no reason for cd'ers to have to justify their behavior, because I don't think they're doing anything wrong. While it doesn't seem to bother you, many, many do have issues with it, and I think this is just one of the things they grasp onto to make it seem okay.

You think that women crossdress because they wear pants? I really don't buy that at all. All of the clothes that women wear, be it tops, jeans, whatever, are women's clothes that are made and tailored for women. The few times that a woman does put on a "mans" shirt, well I guess you can say she's crossdressing, but I really think you're splitting hairs on this.

Yes, there is a double standard in society concerning trannies, why can women wear pants but men can't wear skirts and such...I'll give you that. But you know, it just seems to me that life is built on double standards and things that make no sense, it's a real shame and all, but that's just the way it is. It's one of those things that's just out there, who knows why or what for, it just is. We could spend alot of time debating that subject, perhaps another day.

Karen

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gwen

I can see from this thread that many Crossdressers think of themselves as all the same. I am greatly offended by Karen's comment:



I don't still have internal issues about my cross dressing that I'm still trying to resolve.


I for one kind of enjoy that this is an important rule in our society. For a man to cross dress is one of societies best kept secrets. For that reason much is risked if a man cross dresses. Catch a woman in men's clothes - who cares. Catch a man in a dress - what risk! That makes cross dressing exciting for a man. While I envy women for being able to freely switch between men's or women's clothes in public I feel sorry for women that they can't experience the excitement men do crossing that line and pushing our emotional limit. Wow, exciting!

-Gwen

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Gwen,
I'm sorry I have to agree with Karen. She was not describing a this or that kind of statement. She did say, "most and perhaps".

Good for you, that you don't have internal issues regarding your crossdressing. Many do. Some don't. Perhaps some lie somewhere in the middle.

What an interesting take on the best kept secret, I like that. The question this raises for me is, what if mtf crossdressing was totally accepted? Would you rather enjoy the feeling of relaxation or excitement from dressing enfemme? Would you ever lose the excitement feeling? I liked the excitement that was associated with the early sexual experiences in my life. Today, I still get excited!

This is a topic which I have hammered upon for a long time. As with many debates, the truth lies somewhere in between the extremes. Whereas a double standard does indeed exist, the argument breaks down and becomes moot when one takes into account the reality that most of us, when we crossdress, attempt to emulate women by wearing false breasts, wigs, and the like. Women, on the other hand, do not attempt to emulate men when they toss on a pair of pants. Personally, whereas I love the clothing, the styles, the soft materials, etc, I don't like the way they look on me without all the accoutrements. And then, I like all the accoutrements as well. When crossdressing, I like having breasts and long hair for instance. I like looking like a woman. It becomes more than the clothing.

And like it or not, there are a lot of crossdressers who bemoan the double standard and use it as some kind of justification for their actions. And many of these are still searching for that elusive inner peace with themselves, grasping for reasons to normalize their crossdressing activities. When one achieves this peace with himself, and stops trying to justify his crossdressing, one also stop crying about a double standard that really doesn't exist in the terms by which he defines it. So you can get offended all you want, it still doesn't change the truth. If you were really comfortable about yourself as a crossdresser, this shaky and unbalanced double standard wouldn't bother you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TGMarla

This is a topic which I have hammered upon for a long time. As with many debates, the truth lies somewhere in between the extremes. Whereas a double standard does indeed exist, the argument breaks down and becomes moot when one takes into account the reality that most of us, when we crossdress, attempt to emulate women by wearing false breasts, wigs, and the like. Women, on the other hand, do not attempt to emulate men when they toss on a pair of pants. Personally, whereas I love the clothing, the styles, the soft materials, etc, I don't like the way they look on me without all the accoutrements. And then, I like all the accoutrements as well. When crossdressing, I like having breasts and long hair for instance. I like looking like a woman. It becomes more than the clothing.

And like it or not, there are a lot of crossdressers who bemoan the double standard and use it as some kind of justification for their actions. And many of these are still searching for that elusive inner peace with themselves, grasping for reasons to normalize their crossdressing activities. When one achieves this peace with himself, and stops trying to justify his crossdressing, one also stop crying about a double standard that really doesn't exist in the terms by which he defines it. So you can get offended all you want, it still doesn't change the truth. If you were really comfortable about yourself as a crossdresser, this shaky and unbalanced double standard wouldn't bother you.

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I like your words, I agree with what you say. Nicely said.

Perhaps crossdressing simply comes down to intent.

The great majority of women who wear what many here seem to feel are men's clothing, are simply wearing pants or whatever. They still consider themselves one-hundred percent women, with no thoughts whatever in wanting to be viewed as anything but what they are.

We, however, whether we dress because of assorted gender identification issues or just to get our rocks off, dress fem for entirely different reasons. We intend to appear feminine.

WOW, WOW, WOW! Thank you everyone for such amazing responses. I am amazed at the variety of reasons why we individually chosse to crossdress as well as what it means to each of us. Clearly, crossdressing is a loose term, there are so many reasons why we each of us do it and so many degrees of dressing each of chooses to experience.

For those who don't understand what motivates us, who we really are, what we like to do, etc. the term CROSSDRESSER may seem like a simple enough word to sum it up. It would appear that society has done a good job of neatly packaging all of us into one nice category. But if you analyze the word and those that do it, then the word is not accurate.

Anyhow, I am really enjoying the responses. I am learning as read along. Thank you.

Julia

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kitty Sue

Excellent points. I guess I crossdress as that is part of my who I am. I think that it may have something to do with both genetics and environment.

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I believe the fact that we crossdress is a direct result of both of those. We are who we are and we like what we like( in my case my female brain gender strong and my male brain sex strong and this is unusual when compared to most people who are born with both entities stronger and parallel to the physical sex. MTF crossdressers are beautiful men but there is no such thing
(I'm sure all you GG's would agree with that considering all the dumb things that we do)lol. There are only attractive men, great guys or rugged men ect.; conversely, there is no such thing a a rugged woman. This the power of the vocabulary we created which has words that define masulinity and feminithy. The beautiful man who wares womens closes either to reinforce
or publicly expose his beauty does so believing this socially unacceptable.
He may then justify his behavor by envoking the double stanard thing.

I am what I am
I do what I do
If you don't like it
then fooie on you

But let me say this
before I am done
It gives me no right
to hurt anyone

[SIZE="4"]Wow, Marla! Take the rest of the day off, you're done! Need a nap now? Whew! Great job![/SIZE]

It seems that a distinction is being made that men are cross dressers and women aren't because some men wear breast forms in an attempt to pass as a woman. One might argue that this behavior is exclusive of men but they would be wrong. It occurs to me that there are GGs who wear breast forms as well. In fact if I don't miss my guess the dang things were made for GGs before men started getting into them (pun intended). The first time I went in public with breast forms there was something that seemed over the edge and kind of weird about a guy wearing breast forms until I realized it was no less weird that a GG would wear them. Frankly they're fake boobs. When you think about it pasting fake boobs or boob enhancers on your chest is no less extreme for men or GGs. But the bottom line is we all do it because is makes the feminine clothes look better on all of us.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GypsyKaren

…that's why you'll never see me on the "but woman x-dress all the time bandwagon". I think to many CD'ers try to look for any justification they can find for what they're doing, why they feel the need for it, I don't understand. Perhaps they're still grasping at "issues" of it all, which causes them to grasp at straws in order to feel okay about themselves.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by GypsyKaren

Gwen...

You say you are offended by my comments, but you don't bother to explain exactly why, so I'll take a stab and guess.

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Hi Karen,
Sorry, I did kind of leave that hanging. You see, I make the argument all the time that there is a double standard for men and women. I don’t need to use it to justify my cross dressing. I don’t need to justify my cross dressing. I use it to illustrate the differing attitudes between men and women (GGs). This is really an interesting thread because it goes right to the core of the “battle” between men that cross dress and their GGs. If you are speaking in generalizations you are right in saying that there is a need among CDers to explain why we cross dress. But I would argue that we are driven to this in our attempt to gain acceptance by our female partners and friends. If we all understood that cross dressing, for whatever reason we do it, is merely a matter of taste and that “there is no accounting for taste” we wouldn’t keep trying to explain CDing like it was a disease. My argument that there is a double standard is not bad on GGs (this is for you Kathy). This is an imposition of society as a whole. Men are at least as responsible for this and CDers bear the greater part of the blame for hiding themselves in shame. But to our defense we do it because we think we are alone. And that’s because male cross dressing is the best kept secret in the world. This is an endless loop and the only way to break it is to educate people about cross dressing. So Karen to sum up, I was offended because there is an implication in your words that there is something I need to explain about my taste for cross dressing and the implication of this is that there is something I should be ashamed of. I know it is the opposite point you are trying to make but I also believe it is our own attitude about this that traps us in our guilt. To be free to be true to ourselves it is important that we see the world for what it is. The more complicated we make the definition of cross dressing the further we get from that clarity. The fact is that both men and women cross dress and the rules of society for men that wear dresses are different than they are for women who wear pants. The only thing that makes it acceptable for women to wear pants in public is how long they’ve been doing it. It is so accepted now that it’s even been incorporated into their fashion. Today women don’t even think of themselves as cross dressers. Men, we are way behind on this... chickens! :cheeky:

The issue that women also cross dress is important to Crossdressers because is puts us on equal ground with our female partners. This is important in that it frees us to focus on the real issues in our relationships. Well, in so much as our partners will allow us this. One of the issues we have to deal with is that while we have a taste for cross dressing our partners may not have a taste for us cross dressing.


-Gwen

I have dwelled on the "its not fair" argument for many years. The insight about that argument presented here is very interesting and insightful. Whether GG's are tired of the argument or whether it has some multi-dimentional purpose, you can't deny it, current protocol is:

They can, we can't.

Love you all.
Hog hugs.
Jerry

Gwen

There is no implication in any of my words that anyone needs to explain anything to anybody about anything. I don't feel that CD'ers have to explain a thing because I don't see where they're doing anything wrong. I'm merely stating a simple fact, that many do feel a need to "justify" what they are doing, for whatever reason. I also don't see where I'm saying or implying that you or anyone should feel ashamed of anything, so please don't put words in my mouth.

As far as double standards go, they're a part of life, they're here to stay, so get over it and get used to it. It sure ain't fair, we can go on and on forever on that, but that's just how it is. Society is built on a network of double standards, there are plenty that are a lot worse than the woman/pants, man/skirt issue. Personally, I'd like to see work being done on equality of the races and sexes a lot more than the dressing issue, to me it's a non issue...it's simply not important.

You will never get me to believe or accept that a woman wearing pants is a crossdresser. I've never been able to find the part in the fashion laws that state woman have to wear a skirt or dress at all times, and since they've been doing it for generations without any lynchings or public floggings, then to me it's all right. Ah ha, you say, but where does it say in the fashion laws that men are restricted only to pants, that skirts aren't allowed? There is a sub-section that states since 99% of men who try to wear a dress look absolutely ridiculous, it's strictly forbidden...not really, gotcha! This is where you can insert a "double standard" sign, read it and weep, cause it ain't coming down, at least not in my lifetime.

Karen

Karen,
A double standard isn't something to get over or deal with. It just is. As far as the rule that men wear pants and women wear dresses. Look at virtually every public bathroom door. Our society still remembers that rule.

If cross dressing is to you about getting yourself off, physicially or figuratively (take your pick), I will agree with you. Women don't generally do this. But if you take the literal translation, we both cross dress, men and women alike. Mostly women...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gwen

Karen,
If cross dressing is to you about getting yourself off, physicially or figuratively (take your pick), I will agree with you. Women don't generally do this. But if you take the literal translation, we both cross dress, men and women alike. Mostly women...

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You know, you keep putting words in my mouth, where exactly am I talking about "getting myself off"? Quite frankly, I'm getting insulted from your accusations and tone, and I suggest you put a stop to it real fast.

Karen

I'm sorry but the arguments about women "crossdressing" & double standards seem fatuous.

If you are under 25, live in a big city or a University town, and like to party then dress codes are there to be challenged and played around with. It's called making a "fashion statement" and relates (if it relates to anything beyond making an idiot of yourself:) ) to discovering sexual preference & presenting as an intersting potential partner. It's all about fun and self-discovery. You are probably also stick thin and can frankly get away with anything!

BUT - Older genetic males who dress in female clothes in private or in public and hope to in some way convey their identity as female or feminised are not just doing it it to make fashion statements. They are expressing their identity.

Genetic women wear trousers & t-shirts etc. for a number of entirely practical reasons. Trousers are warm in winter, they mean you don't have to shave your legs so often & you can look nice in them without neccesarily becoming a sex-object. It also means if you want to glam up & look especially nice you can put on a dress & feel special. There is a very obvious line beyond which so called "male type" clothng on women stops looking attractive & starts looking "butch". Unless the wearer has zero fashion sense (always a possibility :) ) then this starts to get into the area of crossdressing and it is being done for reasons of sexual or gender orientation and I'm sure anyone from the FtM community can elucidate about that more - BUT by far the majority of women in trousers are just wearing clothes!

The idea that there is some kind of battle going on between crossdressed men & their genetic female partners over this issue sounds a bit like the good old "battle of the sexes" only in drag :) - I personally don't see how you can be a cross dresser and not be a feminist!!

My wife never wears dresses and never looks butch. If I look around in London, anywhere I go, most women don't wear dresses & skirts most of the time. It is truly a non issue. Ask a 16 year old girl why she dosn't want to wear a dress and she'll call you a pervert!

My understanding (shared by my wife) is that I like to wear dresses & skirts to make up for what nature didn't give me. It also makes me feel special as generally I dress very similarly to my wife.

x

claudia

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Claudia5

I personally don't see how you can be a cross dresser and not be a feminist!!

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Me either (i'm a feminist), but there's plenty of CD's who aren't, and some who are actively in opposition to the feminist movement. I have a hard time understanding why and it does anger me a little sometimes.


Veronica

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gwen

if you take the literal translation, we both cross dress, men and women alike. Mostly women...

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Mostly women? what planet are you living on? You crossdress to FEEL like a woman, or emulate a woman, WOMEN wear male clothes or clothes that look manly because they are comfortable (unless they are a ftm cd) that isn't really crossdressing IS IT.

So, now I'm a crossdresser because I wear trousers and baggy tops....... I DON'T THINK SO!!!!!!! They are FEMALE clothes, male clothes are made differently, different shape, style, size etc... I wouldn't wear male clothes because they wouldn't fit. All my male 'looking' clothes are made for females..... :OMG: I'm going to stop now, because I'm probably just beating a dead horse :Angry3:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tamara GG

You crossdress to FEEL like a woman, or emulate a woman, WOMEN wear male clothes or clothes that look manly because they are comfortable...

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I'm a guy. I don't dress to look like or feel like a women. I wear my skirts becasue I like the "open" feeling without the restricted feel of pants. I admit to wearing panties, but that is for comfort too. Beyond this, I am male. I have my lousy hair, 2 day old beard, mans shirt and shoes. I don't use make up, I don't wear a wig, I don't wear a bra, I don't wear padding..... I don't try to be what I am not. It is only for comfort that I wear what I wear.

I've always thought that the issue of cross dressing lacks an historical view.

When looked at in a global context over the past few hundred years there is not a single article of clothing that has been exclusively worn by one gender or the other.

In the 1700's all of the Founding Fathers, who are so applauded as being brave and tough were, by today's standards, full on cross dressers.

After all they were the ones wearing high heels, a man of wealth was even called "well-heeled" due to his ability to afford, and his wearing of higher heels the others. In those heels were stockings, often made of silk, covering their legs. They often wore corset or bra like garments to smooth and shape the upper body while improving posture. The shirts often had lots of lace about the neck and wrists. The head was clean shaved so they could wear a hot powered wig all day. Not to mention the rouge and powder makeup so they could have that "I'm so above working that I've become deathly pale from lack of sun exposure" look.

That being said, they were NOT in fact cross dressing. They were just wearing the popular style of clothes for well-to-do men of the time.

Did what the were wearing at the time have any impact on their bravery in battle or the validity of their thoughts on how to form a more perfect union?

Nope.

I think that the point here is that wearing of cross-gender clothing does not make that person a cross dresser. A cross dresser is someone who expresses their cross-gender personality by wearing clothes to match that personality (at that point in history), speaks in a femme/butch voice, and often wishes to go about at least some of their daily lives presenting that personality.

I don't see the double standard as most people on the street are just as shocked by a man-in-a-dress trying, but not quite passing, as a woman as they are by a woman-in-a-man's-suit trying, but not quite passing, as a man.

It is only "Okay" for a woman to wear pants or a man's shirt if she is still presenting herself as femme. Just as it is "Okay" for a man to wear silky underpants or stockings (essentially really long nylon dress socks) under their pants so long as he presents himself as manly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ellie

In the 1700's all of the Founding Fathers, who are so applauded as being brave and tough were, by today's standards, full on cross dressers.

After all they were the ones wearing high heels, a man of wealth was even called "well-heeled" due to his ability to afford, and his wearing of higher heels the others. In those heels were stockings, often made of silk, covering their legs. They often wore corset or bra like garments to smooth and shape the upper body while improving posture. The shirts often had lots of lace about the neck and wrists. The head was clean shaved so they could wear a hot powered wig all day. Not to mention the rouge and powder makeup so they could have that "I'm so above working that I've become deathly pale from lack of sun exposure" look.

That being said, they were NOT in fact cross dressing. They were just wearing the popular style of clothes for well-to-do men of the time.

Did what the were wearing at the time have any impact on their bravery in battle or the validity of their thoughts on how to form a more perfect union?

Nope.

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LOL, Bravo Ellie.

Tamara and Karen,
Forgive me because I'm not looking for a fight. Tamara, I especially have the greatest respect for you because you are a GG who loves her husband and who is supportive of cross dressers. I look forward to all of your thoughts on these threads. But I am having a hard time understanding where the two of you are drawing the line between cross dressing and not cross dressing. Karen, I misspoke when I used the term "getting off." I was having trouble even then understanding where you are drawing the line between what is cross dressing and what is not. Tamarar better stated the distinction when you said:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tamara GG

You crossdress to FEEL like a woman, or emulate a woman, WOMEN wear male clothes or clothes that look manly because they are comfortable (unless they are a ftm cd) that isn't really crossdressing IS IT.

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Here’s the thing, I don’t… wear women's clothes to feel like a woman? I'm not trying to be or feel like I'm a woman. I do like to feel what women feel and I believe the wearing of women’s clothes give me a lot of insight that I wouldn’t otherwise have but I can never feel like a woman because I’m not a woman. Nor do I want to be one. No offense - If God made me a women I'm sure I would enjoy that. But he didn't - he made me a man so I make the best of that. Now if I could finally lose all of those unwanted pounds… I might be able to fool a few people when I dress as a woman in public. That would be fun. But I can never be in a woman’s skin and know what it is truly like to be a woman because every cell in my body will always have the encoding of a heterosexual man. The bottom line is I just like to wear women's clothes. I find them relaxing to wear when I come home and they feel good to wear out. I especially like the feel of a GG sliding her hand... oops, family channel.

Karen,
I don't thing I'm putting words in your mouth when I say that the implication of what you and Tamara are saying is that I'm not really a cross dresser either because my motivation is more like Tamara's. Based on that perspective I should be able to wear dresses anywhere I want and nobody will hassle me about it because I won't really be a cross dresser. I like the implication of that but I can't agree with it. I don't think our motivation for wearing the garments of the opposite sex can be the determining factor in whether we are a cross dresser or not.

I think we all just have to realize that cross dressers cannot be lumped into a group. We are all very different by our motivations and by the degree of our public acceptance but like it or not women; you are part of this group in the strictest sense of the definition. The only thing this means in the real world is that your cross dressing SO isn’t really all that far out there. He is more like you than he is different. GGs that may not mean much to you but it is important to your cross dressing partner to understand this so that he can finally know that there isn’t something wrong with him.

-Gwen

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tamara GG

Mostly women? what planet are you living on? You crossdress to FEEL like a woman, or emulate a woman, WOMEN wear male clothes or clothes that look manly because they are comfortable (unless they are a ftm cd) that isn't really crossdressing IS IT.

So, now I'm a crossdresser because I wear trousers and baggy tops....... I DON'T THINK SO!!!!!!! They are FEMALE clothes, male clothes are made differently, different shape, style, size etc... I wouldn't wear male clothes because they wouldn't fit. All my male 'looking' clothes are made for females..... :OMG: I'm going to stop now, because I'm probably just beating a dead horse :Angry3:

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What's up with this??? Is someone having a bad day?

Okay...

Wow, this is such a complex topic - and an interesting one. Lets look at the following reasons MEN crossdress..

1. Sexual (turn on)
2. They feel they are women and want to look the part
3. They like the comfort of the clothing (strictly fit and comfort)

Those are probably the 3 main ingredients. Now, there are of course many levels and mixtures of all 3! You might fall under 1 or all of these categories, and in varying amounts.. now, that said...

Women, on the other hand probably fall under these same categories and could be deemed crossdressers if society were wired that way.. and we're not. The following are (I believe) true statements that demonstrate this.

1. There is a multitude of clothing that is deemed "For Women Only"
2. There is only a very tiny amount of clothing deemed "For Men Only", and I can't even think of 1 item at the moment. Even necties are allowed for women - I've seen it, granted not much, but it is somewhat accepted.

Now.. MOST women out there don't attempt to look masculine while wearing these clothes. Now, here's an interesting question - since they are generally allowed to wear whatever they want - Is the thrill gone? I have found myself that the more I dress, the less of an effect it has on me - i.e. not as much of a turn on. So, had I been allowed to dress in womens clothes since birth - who knows how much I'd really want to? I don't know. But since I'm only rarely able to - it's exciting, something to look forward to, and a nice change of pace. Am I on to something here?

Then of course there's this aspect: Women like their mates (generally) to appear masculine, and Men like their mates to appear feminine (we're talking about the straight ones here). I am a CD, and I'll be the first to admit - I don't like it when my wife dresses like a guy, and she likes to. I don't think I'd call her a crossdresser, but the label society would use is a Tomboy. Again, I think the term crossdresser is just for guys - because of the huge skew in male vs. female only attire.

Okay, so why the fake hips and breasts and makeup and all? I can only answer that question for myself. Honestly it's this: it makes me look more like a woman, looking like a woman is a turn-on, so therefore it's more of a turn-on. I can't answer that question for anyone else, but there you have it.

I've always wondered - why does it turn me on? I wish I knew the answer to that question. I wish it DIDN'T turn me on. Then I could just get on with life and be a normal dude - but hey.. that's life and it's who I am. Is there a cure? I wish. Do I still enjoy it? You bet. Do I feel guilty? You bet! It's not exactly all fun and games - and I hope I just get tired of it before it gets me into some real trouble with the woman I love, and who doesn't know. But being realistic - I've been this way since as far back as I can remember - so it's not likely to change anytime soon.

There's my 5 bucks worth. :D

You're more or less describing being transgender to varying degrees. Crossdressing is just crossdressing. Wearing clothes of the opposite gender, regardless of reason.

As for the issue of women's pants...

Some places actually do sell dresses and skirts made exclusively for men, as men's clothing. It's for the goth crowd and more eccentric circles of modern fashion. But is this crossdressing? They're designed and made for men. In theory, it shouldn't be crossdressing either.

Women's pants on women isn't crossdressing. Most people agree on that to some degree. It may have originally stemmed originally from some sort of crossdressing, and perhaps certain gender issues, but it has become accepted, whereas men wearing a skirt, is not, no matter for whom the skirt was made.

Perhaps crossdressing is more defined by the social stigma associated with it?

*Reading some of the latter posts* Before someone tears off my head here, either of them, perhaps I should clarify. Crossdressing really has two definitions. One, a person who wears clothes of the opposite gender, and two, a person not accepted by society. If the person is accepted by society within their gender role, they aren't a crossdresser, even if they wear women's clothes. To step away from the touch subject of women in pants, i'll use the example of the metrosexual. Metrosexuals periodically wear some bits of women's clothing, like maybe pants or jackets, and adopt what could be called feminine hygenic practices (an improvement, given the hygene of most college males here in cowtown) but are still considered masculine, albeit in somewhat a different way. Albeit, metrosexual may carry a stigma in certain circles, but it doesn't approach the stigma of a crossdresser. It carries an air of class and respect about it perhaps?

Not to make it too simple, because I believe that there are MANY shades of grey here.......but if it doesn't hurt anyone why do we get so fascinated with the label that we feel the need to put on ourselves.

I am me......and that person likes to feel pretty from time to time, which is fine. If my wife wants to feel tough from time to time....that's fine too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by calliekat

I'm a guy. I don't dress to look like or feel like a women. I wear my skirts becasue I like the "open" feeling without the restricted feel of pants. I admit to wearing panties, but that is for comfort too. Beyond this, I am male. I have my lousy hair, 2 day old beard, mans shirt and shoes. I don't use make up, I don't wear a wig, I don't wear a bra, I don't wear padding..... I don't try to be what I am not. It is only for comfort that I wear what I wear.

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Yet society will still lump you into the "crossdresser" category along with the ones who go all out to look as feminine as possible even though your reaons for "crossdressing" are no different than most women's. Isn't it interesting how that works?