Thanks for letting me know I don't pass

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Originally Posted by Veronica75

So much for "the customer's always right". If that older guy is the owner or manager he should realize that, whatever his own prejudices, driving away business in this economy is just plain stupid.

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OK, I'm lost here. How was he driving away business (or, as others have said, being a jerk)? Did he spit on your food, call you an insulting name, snicker as he gave you the meal?

Lighten up, Francis. How many of us took 20 years, 30, even 40 to figure out what gender we think we are, and you're expecting him to figure it out in 30 seconds?

Jonianne: The OP didn't come across as that arrogant - he... she... whatever... was just expressing disappointment at the whole scene. What got me was the followup comments with everyone dogpiling on with "what a jerk" and "driving away business" nonsense.

ralph

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Originally Posted by Rachel Morley

it "could" be that they're doing on purpose, and letting you know, that they "read" you ... but I tend to think that they think they're being polite!

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Along the veins of the famous quote from Napoleon - Never ascribe to malice, that which can be explained by incompetence.

It's true that the general populace really doesn't know much about us (well, how could they, we barely know ourselves sometimes!). I would like to come up with a polite response that would gently let someone know the proper way to address me. Of course, many may not pick up on the subtlety, but at least I would have tried to help them.

Maybe I just lack imagination but nothing has ever come to mind.

-Gillian

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Originally Posted by Ralph

.......Jonianne: The OP didn't come across as that arrogant - he... she... whatever... was just expressing disappointment at the whole scene.......

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Ralph, I was responding to someone else's post that was calling the OP as having the "height of arrogance".

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Originally Posted by Rachel Morley

Hi Wendy,

You know .. it "could" be that they're doing on purpose, and letting you know, that they "read" you ... but I tend to think that they think they're being polite! Think about it, they aren't part of the TG community, they don't deal with TG people on a regular everyday basis and they see this person in front of them that is giving off apparently more male signals than female ones, what do they do? .... answer: They be polite and not mention the clothes, act like they haven't noticed a single thing, and call you "sir" because they read that you're biologically male and that you're the customer. :doh:

I think this is about the regular public not knowing what to say or do when they encounter a person who doesn't fit into either of the two boxes "male" or "female". It's happened to me too and it's a bit crushing as you think to yourself "can't they see what I'm trying to say? (be?)" ... I think it just means that these people need to be educated in how to address a TG person.

If we get a new bartender at our River City Gems TG socials who's never worked with a TG group before we always tell them that - "everyone here tonight is a lady" and to please address them as such. They're always happy to be guided on the etiquette. That's what this could be - ignorance.

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When you walk out that front door dress you are NOT in Crossdresser.com....you are in the real world call society, there are No forum administrators walking around with you to make sure that people treat you right.

At 6'5 shoulders like a line backers is one thing ...... but going there nervous is not good at all, that is the one thing that will get you read all the time.....quick.

I did not hear you say that the man was rude to you, even thou he read you I feel that he was just being polite like Rachel said, you can not take everything that people say to heart......they just do not know how to say it right.

MissConstrude brings up a very good point.

Prejudices, ignorance, jerk, moron, bigotry ,mental retort....a**hole......it is amazing how we can judge others for just being them-self.......hey is that what they do to us.

LA CINDY LOVE

Sorry, but if you refer to the original post, the word that the gentleman in question used is in caps, indicating that the word was specifically emphasized. Perhaps Wendy can clarify that, but to me the only reason for using undue emphasis is to put someone in their place. More to the point, why use any gender specific form of address at all? If they were uncertain what term to use, why not omit it completely rather than emphasize the word "SIR"?

Why not simply say, "Thanks for your business, have a great day. Next time try the maple bars." or something along those lines? For my money he was being intentionally rude and knew exactly what he was doing.

Hugs...Joni Mari

Nearly every cab driver that uses a gender-pronoun at all calls me "Sir", no matter how I am dressed -- and often before I've said a single word. "Where would you like to go, Sir"? Even when I'm tried extra-hard to look female. Very few of them have sounded like they were trying to make a "dig"... though I did get one a few weeks ago who tried several times to get me to say things... it felt like he was 95% sure I was male but wanted to get me to talk enough to confirm it through my voice... it wasn't even subtle.

The cab driver I had last night tried for conversation several times, even though he could see I was busy trying to put on my heels. I could barely understand what he was trying to say... what-ever it was was so far away from my internal state and my pop-culture experience that his paragraphs literally sounded like a foreign language.Then at the destination, he kept me, trying to talk me into arranging to have him drive me home afterwards. I got the impression that he was making a clumsy attempt to "pick me up". I don't know if he "read" me or not... probably did, since everyone else seems to.

I get called "M'am" very seldom. The only place that is good about it is the GLBT club that hosts our monthly meetings. (Well, there are a small number of other places that are good about it, a couple of restaurants that have dealt with us before.) If I'm gender-bending I don't mind, but if I've taken the trouble to Dress completely and I'm in heels and carrying a purse, getting called "Sir" is... well, it's a disappointment.

What I can say, though, is that when I visibly gender-bend, or dress completely, that even though many people "read" me in a fraction of a second, that there are an awful lot of people who are pleasant and completely welcoming and go out of their way to be nice to me, and very few people who are openly critical; I may not "pass" to very many people at all, and yet to the great majority of people, when I am cross-dressed, somehow I am completely "normal", as if it is the way I am "supposed to be".

Well, you said this was an older guy....maybe his inner dialogue was along the lines of Geez, these crazy kids and their wacky fashions these days....this guy almost looks like a girl! I should call him "Ma'am" and embarrass him. No, no, that would be rude....just call him "Sir" like any other guy. These silly kids!

Then again, sure, he might've just been trying to be a jerk. Oh well. If you told me that I could go out dressed and the worst that would ever happen is that I'd get called "Sir" from time to time, I'd be strolling the aisles at Target tomorrow in the biggest, poofiest ballgown you could possibly imagine. :)

Good on you for having more cojones than I, and if there's anyone who 's got a problem with you, just let them choke on their own bile. :)

The reality is very very few pass or are convincing as women.

I have to agree with Rachel, I will assume it was ignorance on the server's part. It was spur of the moment and he probably really had not had contact with "our kind" before.

I really don't see what the OP's ability to pass had to do with anything (in regard to all those who want to see pictures). I have said before that in most cases I would not "pass" and look <-----. Passing is not the issue here. It is ignorance or arrogance. Which one was the man showing? Who knows. I hope ignorance because we can educate. Arrogance however is something else and karma will bite you.

Just to add my 2 cents

At 6'5" you won't pass sorry you are at the 99.8 percentile of female height and you will stand out. Does not matter how confident you are.

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Originally Posted by TSchapes

You could have said, "I prefer to be called ma'm."

-Tracy

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I agree with Tracy and I certainly don't agree with all the aggressiveness in other posts...

It happened to me as well and I have made a point out of it to stop this kind of thing right in its tracks by saying: "Excuse me... when I dress like a woman, I prefer to be addressed as one"... This has always resulted in an apology from the offending person... In the discussion that follows, you can make a friend by telling him/her, now that you know that your cover is blown anyway, that it is very hard being a girl, but that you are doing the best you can... This is almost a guarantee to break the ice...

At least that is my experience...

:love:
Dita.

Well when I went to the liquor store to get some pepermint schnaps fror a friend I was called a worse name. The store clerk had the nerve to refer to me as sweetheart! Not a Maaam or a sir just a deragatory term. How dare he refer to me as a "Sweetheart" Whats next will I be refered to as Honey , or Babe or Doll. Where will it all end!!!

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Originally Posted by MissConstrued

I don't understand all the hubbub. You are a male, are you not?

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Yes, but that doesn't mean she wants to be addressed as one en femme. Let me tell you something, I live as a guy day to day and being addressed as "Sir" hurts every time, like a dagger. But I have to let it go. But if I was addressed as "Sir" en femme, I would be perturbed and annoyed to say the least. And if it was obviously done out of malice, with an emphasized "Sir", the person involved would find out just how cold and scornful I can be.

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What right do you have to demand anyone call you exactly what you like? Most people do not read minds. It's the height of arrogance to expect anything different.

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No, people can't read minds, but I since it is, after all the 21st freeking century, I'd expect them to have been paying attention and know at least this one basic rule:

"You address CD/TG/TS people as the gender their presenting as, it's polite."

We're not that uncommon for people to know that.

Veronica
Rondelle (Ron) Rogers Jr.

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Originally Posted by wendy360

An older man walks out asks me what I wanted and I gave him my order. As he was putting the doughnuts in the bag he says..."do you want anything else...SIR"

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Seriously, don't take crap off of an adult working in a donut shop. If he is not the owner, then he is pathetic, and if he is the owner, then leaving the store without the donuts you had him pull from the case will get your message across in the only language he understands.

Him:"do you want anything else...SIR?"

Me: "Not from you." Then just the sound of my heels walking out of the door.

or: "What do you charge for a bit of respect?"

But then I think batty has an even better idea...

It's obvious to Me that the salesclerk was making a "statement" that he did not approve---you were presenting yourself in femme mode and even the most dim people in the public sector would have the wit to address you in the feminine. I would chalk it up to the clerk being rude, ignorant or both and forget about it.

And BTW most of us don't pass all the time--although some may occasionally go unnoticed in a crowd or in certain types of venue, sooner or later even the most femme of us will be "read". It's no big deal--it kind of goes with the territory--I remember the biggest thrill I ever had was being all femmed up in a gay bar--one of the other patrons approached me and asked if I was a "real" women or a CD. It made my evening.

Finally I have to tell you one of the most attractive CDs I ever knew on a personal basis was your height---did she pass? Not really--Was she HOT?? very definatly. And one final thing--some of the posters above have suggested that you post a picture to tell whether you pass or not---if you feel like posting fine but you really can't tell from a photo whether you pass---I've seen dozens of pics which show a very femme person but once I met them it was clear given body height/weight and other factors that they were not passable--which is fine---just that you can't tell from a pic.

Sometimes, we (crossdressers), as a section of society, tend to get upset over a minor event such as being addressed as "Sir". I can't ever recall being called "sir" but if I were to be, then I'd probably just blush and never go to that store again.

In the bigger picture, it's a small thing, but to some of us it really is a big deal and some may become upset about it.

I tend to always try to see a nicer side to people and perhaps the sales clerk in this instance just didn't know how to handle the situation. Of course there is also the possibility that he might have been being rude, but when all said and done, if it really bothers you, let your feet do the talking and don't go back.
I doubt whether the clerk shall worry and neither should you. Don't let it stop you doing what you want to. For every piece of ignorance there is also a piece of understanding.

I think this is more likely to be ignorance than actice bigotry, as some have suggested - but you won't know until you push it further...:devil:

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Originally Posted by Phyliss

..."do you want anything else...SIR"

Mental retort, "Yeah, ... How about you drop into a big hole, jerk"

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When it'ever happened to me in the past, my standard response was always 'Do you really think I go to the effort of dressing like this, to be called SIR??

I think we ALL need to confront such attitudes, and emphasise there is more in this world than cis-men and women? :)

Plus, if you act like a lady, IME you are far more likely to get treated like one.. Act hurt in a feminine way and just watch that male conditioning kick in... :gorgeous:

The vast majority of crossdressers can't pass... Hell, most people on HRT can't pass. I say to hell with passing and conformity. They're entirely overrated. I stopped caring what others thought of my attire long ago. Just wear whatever you want anytime you want.

Those who make the point about typical folk not knowing "CD ettiquette" make a good point, my own background of going out dressed was only in NYC where the culture is more enlightened, or at least more obsessed with not stepping on anyone's toes... in New York, if they didn't know whether to use "sir" or "ma'am" they'd just say, "So you want anything else?" and forget the pronoun for fear of an unpleasant reaction or, yes, driving away business.

Also, as others said, the delivery and attitude have to be taken into account, and no one who wasn't there has any idea of what that really was. Was the server just trying to be polite to a guy in a dress? Or did he look down his nose and sneer as he ridiculed someone different from himself? Who knows.

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Originally Posted by Ralph

OK, I'm lost here. How was he driving away business (or, as others have said, being a jerk)? Did he spit on your food, call you an insulting name, snicker as he gave you the meal?

Lighten up, Francis. How many of us took 20 years, 30, even 40 to figure out what gender we think we are, and you're expecting him to figure it out in 30 seconds?

Jonianne: The OP didn't come across as that arrogant - he... she... whatever... was just expressing disappointment at the whole scene. What got me was the followup comments with everyone dogpiling on with "what a jerk" and "driving away business" nonsense.

ralph

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Originally Posted by MissConstrued

I don't understand all the hubbub. You are a male, are you not?

What right do you have to demand anyone call you exactly what you like? Most people do not read minds. It's the height of arrogance to expect anything different.

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you ARE kidding, right??? "What right do you have to be adressed as you wish to be adressed?"??? That's EVERYONE'S right, sweetie. People can and do make mistakes, and some don't mean any harm. Especially those in retail businesses. They aren't there to give you affirmation, of course, but they do want your business, and insulting you purposely ain't the way to build repeat customers.

But back to the quote. I am sorry, but that is about the most backwards statement I have ever seen. I think you need to look up the meaning of arrogance. Asking to be addressed as you pretty obviously wish to be adressed is not asking alot of people. It doesnt ruin their day, or cost them anything. If ANYthing is arrogant, it's assuming you have any business going out of your way to insult someone because their existence somehow offends you.

Sheesh...
I'm dumbfounded, I really am.

Hugs,


Melissa:)

It's worth remembering that much of the gains Women, African Americans, Indiginous Australians and many others made came from the way they chose to respond directly to discrimination regarding shops and services. From where they could sit on the bus, drink at the pub or whether they got let into the swimming pool or how they were treated at them.

Whether public acts of defiance or court cases this is how others won rights and acceptance.

Regarding my previous suggestion, you could follow the 'kill them with kindness' option my Grandmother was fond of.

Get a bunch more CDs and TSs and make a point of regularly going in there dressed. No matter how rude he is. Behaving well and defying his rudeness with politeness but not meekness. The violence of good manners.

If he wasn't so happy serving you then make him less happy by going in again, and again. Eventually he may get over his problems, even become an ally. But even if not it's refusing to be driven away by his poor behaviour.

Filling his whole shop with CDs and TSs every last saturday for Sex and the City style girl-talk over coffee and donuts would be spectacular revenge would it not?

It is aggrivating as hell when someone goes out of their way to belittle us.
Of course after the incident you always think of all these good come-backs, sucks that in the heat of the moment they don't come to mind.

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Originally Posted by KateSpade83

You should post your pics here for constructive criticism on passing!

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Kate think about that -
Posting photos on a TG forum and asking if they pass. Especially when some of the posters on this forum have NO clue what the OP looks like at all, yet say "Oh you don't pass, most of us don't"
Yeah I made that mistake once - posting photos and asking about how I pass or whatever.

One would be better off covering themselves in fresh blood and walking into a lion's cage. A lot of TG have all these bad feelings and want everyone else to feel bad too... Asking TG's if anything passes is a bad idea.

[QUOTE=Nicole Erin;1741728]It is aggrivating as hell when someone goes out of their way to belittle us.
Of course after the incident you always think of all these good come-backs, sucks that in the heat of the moment they don't come to mind.[QUOTE]


THINGS TO SAY WHEN YOU ARE MALICIOUSLY MIS-GENDERED

1. "Exactly what part of this told you I wish to be called sir?"
2. "Thank YOU, sir/ma'am" (whichever is wrong)
3. Look over your shoulder for the "sir"
4. "Thank you(name on tag), Where can I find the manager?"
5. HUH? YOU GET OFF WORK WHEN? YOU WANT TO MEET ME WHERE? (Loudly!)
6. Just smile politely and say, "That's ma'am/miss, please" but dont walk away-patiently wait for a response, looking them directly in the eyes. (always give someone a chance to do the right thing, or hang themselves!)

I strongly recomend #6, unless you are being treated exceptionally rudely. You are, after all, an ambassador for many others to come after you.

Hugs,

Melissa :)

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Originally Posted by wendy360

....... he says..."do you want anything else...SIR" ..........

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No Miss, I think you've had too much of my business already.

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Originally Posted by wendy360

Thanks everyone for the incourageing words.
I'm 6'5 and wear 2xl tops, I'm not fat I wear size 9 jeans . . .

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[SIZE=4]Size 9 jeans would seem to be out of proportion to 2X tops. I wonder if hip pads would make any difference.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=4]Good for you for perseverance.[/SIZE]
:)
[SIZE=4]Marie-Claire[/SIZE]