How do we know when we pass?

This is all a fantasy. I have not yet seen ONE girl who 'passed' who was not transitioning (at least on hormones, had surgery, etc). Male and female bodies have thousands and thousands of subtle differences that everyone subconsciously just 'gets'. If someone is calling you a woman or 'maaming' you, likely it's actually out of respecting CDs/TVs, not that they actually are thinking you're GG. Not that such a thing is bad. I think acceptance is greatly needed, but don't confuse someone using specific gender references in an effort to respect their lifestyle from someone thinking they're a woman. My 2 cents...

P.S. If you are transitioning, it is possible to pass, absolutely, but it matters in terms of age, genetics, amount of time on HRT, surgery, etc. Regardless, it IS possible, and I've seen it plenty of times. Most of the subtle difference are corrected when people make that much of an effort, since it requires that much effort to be done.

I agree I don't think we ever know if we really pass, but who cares we are haveing fun,

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Originally Posted by jenna_woods

I agree I don't think we ever know if we really pass, but who cares we are haveing fun,

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And, that is a fantastic attitude. Accept yourself! Have fun! It doesn't matter what people think, and you'll find out that far more people will respect you when you just own up to what you are, without flinching and apologizing for it, one bit.

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Originally Posted by Sophie_C

This is all a fantasy. I have not yet seen ONE girl who 'passed' who was not transitioning (at least on hormones, had surgery, etc). Male and female bodies have thousands and thousands of subtle differences that everyone subconsciously just 'gets'. If someone is calling you a woman or 'maaming' you, likely it's actually out of respecting CDs/TVs, not that they actually are thinking you're GG. Not that such a thing is bad. I think acceptance is greatly needed, but don't confuse someone using specific gender references in an effort to respect their lifestyle from someone thinking they're a woman. My 2 cents...

P.S. If you are transitioning, it is possible to pass, absolutely, but it matters in terms of age, genetics, amount of time on HRT, surgery, etc. Regardless, it IS possible, and I've seen it plenty of times. Most of the subtle difference are corrected when people make that much of an effort, since it requires that much effort to be done.

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I agree with you in many ways. Since I started RLE, I always get "Ma'am" or "Miss" or "Young lady". But sometimes there is a greater sense of acceptance that is palpable. A sense of ease at which GGs are with each other and you start to get glimmers of that and it's wonderful...then you know...

Not attracting attention is what I call level 1 passing.

Having a young lady check you out in the coffee shop line and quickly return to her bored expression when she realizes that you're a couple age-groups above her is level 2 passing. Being addressed as "ladies" when when with GG's in a restaurant also rates a 2, in my book.

If you chat with a woman for a bit, and she says "Excuse me, you are a woman, right?", that's level 3 passing. Being referred to as "she" and "her" at the checkout stand or a sales situation is also level 3, in my book.

On a couple of occasions, I've chatted with women, and if they act shocked or surprised when you disclose that you're trans, that's level 4 passing, the black belt.

However, if you're in the ladies' room washing your hands and there's a long line behind you, and as you leave someone says "You know, I don't think that was a real girl..." You go straight back to level zero, baby!

(guilty of all of the above situations)

-- Diane

You get a C- or better until you are in Grad school and then its a B silly!

You rarely really know if you are passing. You only know when you are not passing.

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Originally Posted by Samantha Kelsey

I don't think you will ever know if you pass, just because nobody stares or says anything to you doesn't mean they haven't made you

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Originally Posted by ReineD

People have differing levels of gender radar sensitivity, independent of how well you present.

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I agree with both of these quotes. It's really difficult to truly know for sure what another person was really thinking to themselves about you.

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Originally Posted by CharleneM

I think you know when you pass, when you stand in a long line of women going to the ladies room, and they don't have a clue, and afterwood, at the sinks washing your hands, fixing your lipstick, and not getting any stares in the mirror.

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This has actually happened to me at a Chevy's. I was scared stiff standing in line but later washing my hands at the sink I was thinking crazy thoughts about how I really might be passing after all. :)

I know i passed when the report card came in :D

[SIZE="2"]When its third down and ten! I would guess, when we here a wolf whistle, or a car toots horn as they pass by, or when no one seems to notice, or when someone says she, or ma'm.[/SIZE]

I "knew" that I was "passing" when my nail tech asked me if I would be cooking Thanksgiving dinner!

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Originally Posted by dilane

Not attracting attention is what I call level 1 passing.

Having a young lady check you out in the coffee shop line and quickly return to her bored expression when she realizes that you're a couple age-groups above her is level 2 passing. Being addressed as "ladies" when when with GG's in a restaurant also rates a 2, in my book.

If you chat with a woman for a bit, and she says "Excuse me, you are a woman, right?", that's level 3 passing. Being referred to as "she" and "her" at the checkout stand or a sales situation is also level 3, in my book.

On a couple of occasions, I've chatted with women, and if they act shocked or surprised when you disclose that you're trans, that's level 4 passing, the black belt.

However, if you're in the ladies' room washing your hands and there's a long line behind you, and as you leave someone says "You know, I don't think that was a real girl..." You go straight back to level zero, baby!

(guilty of all of the above situations)

-- Diane

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I think Dilane captures the essence of passing...:thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Sophie_C

This is all a fantasy. I have not yet seen ONE girl who 'passed' who was not transitioning (at least on hormones, had surgery, etc).

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There are examples of non-transitioning girls who pass well on this very site. I've been known to pass in public, and there are prettier girls here than me!

I went shopping at the mall yesterday. School must still be out in that town because the mall was full of teenagers. As I was walking to another store I passed a group of three or four high school girls that were just hanging out. I smiled at them and one or two of them smiled back and then they went on with their conversation. That is my definition of passing. Leanne

I hate that P word more than any word! I have come to realize that if someone worries about the P word they have already failed. They get an F.

I know that for me there is a great anxiety if I pass or not. I probably don't pass very well. But what should be the point is that there should come a time when we don't care if someone makes us. We just enjoy being who we are and whether we pass or not should not be a measurement of how happy we are with ourselves.

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Originally Posted by Katesback

I hate that P word more than any word! I have come to realize that if someone worries about the P word they have already failed. They get an F.

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In a previous thread you mentioned that you were getting FFS. You said that you already looked good,and fit it, but people could still tell and that after your FFS they probably wouldn't be able to. I take it that what you mean is that before you had FFS you may or may not have (p word), but you didn't care one way or the other. But you still opted to have FFS. Maybe something that you didn't "worry" about, but obviously it was important for you that people "didn't" know. Wouldn't that be "worrying" about it in a sense?

Kelly

Thanks for all the replies, more than I expected :)

Well, I like to (try to?) pass when I'm out because it's easier, and because it's affirming to have the way I feel translate to how I'm perceived. Besides, I'm planning on going full-time when I start law school and I don't want to be known in law school as "that tranny." At this point I'd really like to be me and blend in.

I totally agree, the people we interact with are generally polite enough to treat us well, whether or not we've been clocked. It just feels impossible to know, because even if you hear rude comments 1% of the time and see honest surprise at an ID check 50% of the time, you still can't infer how often you're passing because not every time you get clocked will a comment be made. Never knowing is probably true... but it's also frustrating. I almost want to interview people who've clocked me to get a tally of what I can fix, or what I need to work around. I can just imagine interviewing some redneck who read me, lol. The cues ReineD was talking about seem right, and I appreciate your scale dilane :). Thank you for all of your stories. I know a lot of you have much, much more experience at this than I do.

PS: I'm on HRT and some of the CDs on here look way better and pass way better than I do. I'm sure some CDs pass flawlessly.

Good question Kelly!

I will say what I said to a friend who asked me why I was getting FFS. I said that even though I am well accepted in the general world I know that I had telling features that some could pick out which made me different to some. Getting FFS often erases those features and opens the door to many to walking out of that slightly different catagory.

I thought about all of it and since I had the monies to get the work done I decided to go for it. I can now say that if I could have gone back and done it all over again I would have had FFS before SRS. It made that much of a difference.

Katie

For me, one sure sign that I'm passing is when a man flirts with me, which I love in so many ways. I believe that most men would not willingly flirt with a transgendered girl. When it happens, I just smile at them and walk on.

Only one time did I have trouble. I went to a movie alone, and a few minutes after I sat down, I had a man come and sit right next to me in a fairly empty theater. I was nervous as he kept looking at me and smiling, trying to talk to me and move even closer. I just said in a polite voice that if he didn't move, I was going to complain to the theater manager. Luckily, that did the trick.

The next time I went there alone, I didn't wear such a short skirt.

Karen

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Originally Posted by Katesback

Good question Kelly!

I will say what I said to a friend who asked me why I was getting FFS. I said that even though I am well accepted in the general world I know that I had telling features that some could pick out which made me different to some. Getting FFS often erases those features and opens the door to many to walking out of that slightly different catagory.

I thought about all of it and since I had the monies to get the work done I decided to go for it. I can now say that if I could have gone back and done it all over again I would have had FFS before SRS. It made that much of a difference.

Katie

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Wouldn't attempting to pass be basically the same thing...Someone doing their best to "fit in"? Wouldn't it make quite a bit of difference in much the same way FFS made it so much of a difference for you? I know that not eveybody cares if they pass or not, but for those who wish to.

1. First, take a hard look at yourself in the mirror, if your reflection honestly looks like a female (not necessarily a hot chick) you've got a shot. If you're super tall and wear heels, your odds go way down. If you honestly think you've got the look down,

2. Take your act outside and see what happens to you. If nobody pays attention to you, you're passing...wearing sunglasses (on a sunny day outdoors) let's you study people's reactions without calling attention to yourself . If you're not getting any second glances or double-takes,

3. Try interacting with people in safe situations, like a cashier or a waitress. Perfecting a female voice takes hundreds of hours of practice and training, even now I can only do it it short spurts but if I stick to short phrases I can pull it off.

Remember that nobody fools all of the people all of the time, I haven't been clocked in a long time but it can be a devastating experience, so stick to safe places where you won't get your ass kicked if you cross the wrong person. As one of the other girls observed, teenage girls have amazing radar, if you can walk through a bevy of them at the mall without hearing any giggles or "oh my God, that's a guy" you're on your way.

Of course Kelly. My issue with the "P" word lies deep and also very basic. If you look up the word in the dictionary you will find a series of definitions and the one that really hits the mark is the definition that says something like "presenting something that is not true or accurate". Now I dont know about how you see it but I have never seen a trans person to be anything but what they are. I dont see cds or ts girls as presenting something that is not true.

I could go on and on but I have a feeling you are looking up the definition, there are better words like presentation and assimilation. I have no issues with these.

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Originally Posted by Katesback

Of course Kelly. My issue with the "P" word lies deep and also very basic. If you look up the word in the dictionary you will find a series of definitions and the one that really hits the mark is the definition that says something like "presenting something that is not true or accurate". Now I dont know about how you see it but I have never seen a trans person to be anything but what they are. I dont see cds or ts girls as presenting something that is not true.

I could go on and on but I have a feeling you are looking up the definition, there are better words like presentation and assimilation. I have no issues with these.

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Maybe if you use the word in the literal. I think that most of us agree that for the purpose of these type threads passing is just used more as generic term, a descriptive if you will. Passing as a woman to the casual observer.
Just the basic.

Kelly

For me passing used to be my main focus and I was always concerned, worried even. Over the years I've learned to not worry so much about passing, but to focus on being natural and dressing appropriately for the place, season and time of day.

I focus on shopping, the menu, the surroundings and I try tobe interested in people. I try to be geninue.