Terminology - TG and TS ARE NOT THE SAME THING

There are subtlelies of meaning which are not carved in stone and I think we need to accept that we may each choose whether to label ourselves and what we label ourselves. I very muchprefer the lable transgender because it speaks to me (that is me, not everyone) of gender roles and behavioural characteristics as well as just appearance.....Dee

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Originally Posted by t-girlxsophie

since I began dressing I have described myself as a Transvestite without any problem,only since coming on here,and similar sites have I been confronted by scores of ppl saying OMG thats wrong,well im sorry being defined as TV doesn't make me any less worthy than being defined as Crossdresser.I would suggest that the majority on here clearly know which label to attach to one another.we all know who is TS,and we all know the courage they possess to pursue their true self and we ALL respect and admire them for that but im afraid the non CDing world are not of a mind generally to give a rats **** what we call each other,to think any different is deluding ourselves.As a community whether TV,CD,TS etc we should be a strong,together community isn't that what we should all strive for :hugs:

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I always though of myself as a TV until I found this site and discovered all the other things I could be calling meself...

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Originally Posted by Lorileah

Labels are not important. Well except when they are needed to define something. In this case the term Transgendered needs to be defined and who it encompasses is important even if we do not like it. Let's put it into say a bill, like...oh I don't know...let's just call it ENDA for fun. If you write the bill to say it will prevent discrimination for transgendered individuals and then define TG as encompassing Transsexuals (who would have a definition) Gender Dysphoric people (another subset with its own definition) and so on and so on it makes it a lot harder for someone to line out certain subsets. If not as an umbrella term then the bill could pass for only drag queens let's say. Why? Because the people supporting the bill are afraid of transsexuals and crossdressers (who tend to hang out where they don't want them to) but DQ's because they are on stage and aren't really gender questioning but entertainers. See?

OK we don't like labels. I don't like labels in any day to day activity for the most part, but they do serve a purpose. We need to communicate with people every day. We all accept the word "human" as a set standard. There are subsets under that where people define themselves even more but as an umbrella term we are human. This is how we communicate to others. Say "dog" and people see in their minds a certain dog. Maybe the one they had when they were young. But under dog we can say German Shepherd and that makes it more specific. Does this make sense?

This subject is posted about every month I think. It always leads to "Don't call me Shirley" by someone who takes offense because they don't want to be put in a box. OK We get it. Sorry if we stepped on your toes. It always seems to be taken as someone poking a stick into a den of vipers (which are in fact a subset of snakes which is a subset of reptiles....But you immediately saw in your mind a viper not a Bull snake. Point made?)

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Thanks Lorileah, this is the best explanation of why we use (and frankly need...) lables I've heard yet. And yes, this subject does come up a lot, and always seams to make someone angry - a fact that has always puzzled me. I do not believe that anyone on these boards uses a label with any intention of insulting or degrading anyone. Without these labels, how will we be able to communicate with each other, let alone someone outside of our community?
Just my :2c:
:hugs:

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Originally Posted by TxKimberly

I think that a lot of you are missing the point.

Amanda has provided the formal definition of the word "Transgender". You may choose to use that term or you may not - that's entirely up to you. Amanda has only sought to make sure that we know it's definition and frankly I applaud her for it, given how many posts I've seen that made it clear that the poster had no clue what it meant.

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I got her point and it was good. My point was in "educating" the public. I don't feel that I have to ask anyone's permission to be me, and by educating them.. it seems like we are asking for their approval. Not gonna happen.:hugs:

Kel

Because to myself, whether I'm dressed as a boy or girl, I'm a girl :]

I did a survey at my old college to see if people knew the terms transgendered, transexual, tranvestite, and crossdresser. 70% saw them as the same definition...this was a liberal college and all responsants were in their 20s, mind you. Furthermore, the majority of the respondants associated homosexuality as synonymous with transvestite and transsexual. There's a bunch of other questions I asked, if you want to pm me. But, I just thought those results were pretty shocking.

I think that in order for people to become more tolerant and to move these issues "out of the closet," so to speak...you have to have more public awareness on gender issues. It's apparently lacking even with groups that you would think would know this stuff.

So, I think this is a good point. Even if you don't like being called TG...or, a transvestite (I know some people hate that too)...or, if you hate labels period...it's still important to raise awareness.

A semantic point.

Did the dinosaurs die 65,000,000 years ago or 64,000,000 years ago? Does it matter today? No, not unless your a paleontologist who's job it is to know.

Unless your a psychologist, an educator, or gender therapist, your defining labels have no merit anyway.

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Originally Posted by JodyCD

Unless your a psychologist, an educator, or gender therapist, your defining labels have no merit anyway.

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cool, so it's okay to go around saying trannie then ?

I have a great idea. We do like they do in cars and computer software. Just release different versions!


I think all these labels are destructive.

You don't have gay-light, gay-standard, and gay-professional so why have drossdresser, transvestite, drag(king/queen), transgender, transsexual, gender-queer, etc, etc, etc.

Why can't we just be transgender and shut up about it? If you want to live full time as a woman, great you're transgender. If you just want to wear women's clothes on tuesdays and sunday, you are transgender.

Yeah I know they have twinks and bears and all that crap but in the public eye it is gay period.

It should be transgender period end of story have a good life.

I've only been here a week or so, and 'dressing' for a couple of months. So, I may well be less informed than most people here, and I'm certainly less experienced regarding the subject, but try to think of that as something of an outside perspective - often useful.

When I realized that I liked the idea of dressing in women's clothes, it was upsetting. Part of what bothered me was what that 'made me'. What term(s) could suddenly be accurately applied to me? Terms that are often perceived as derogatory or pejorative.

I'm still trying to figure out which definition best fits me. I know I'm an individual, one of a kind in many ways. No problem with that, but I'll defer to much more eloquent explanations in this thread regarding the usefulness of labels at least some of the time. Maybe it's just a curious nature, or maybe it's just trying to fit in. I'm glad that definitions aside, most people here are accepting, kind, and helpful. I've done quite a bit of reading lately, and i've come to like the term transgender pretty well. I don't know that I'm ready to absolutely apply it to myself, but I think that the fact it is so broad makes it feel easier to fit into.

Therein lies part of the problem I think. My initial thought about applying the term to myself was that it was too broad. Heaped too many people together who covered such a spectrum. My perception had been that transgender meant basically transexual. Which is probably closer to the common usage when I first learned the term as a kid. Which is problem two. The term is evolving. No wonder people don't understand what it means - the meaning has changed.

I think SuperAmanda was suggesting that it might be beneficial to everyone that might fit under the transgender umbrella to identify as such. Despite the diversity there, common prejudices are often shared against - I'll go ahead and say - us. Makes sense. Unity has helped other groups gain acceptance. I don't think anyone wants to force anyone else to self-identify in any particular way. It seems like discussing it, suggesting it, or even encouraging it is reasonable though.

In my time here it's become clear to me that the future holds more of a continuum, a gradient, of gender than the black and white definitions that are currently prevalent. I'm sure I'm not the first person to recognize that - but it's a revelation for me. Seems inevitable, and pretty cool. But until we reach that point at least, I can see the usefulness of setting and owning a common, inclusive definition.

At any rate, Just my initial thoughts on the subject. As someone coming to grips with things, I certainly appreciate the opportunity to listen to and participate in the discussion.

The problem with Amanda's post is that she is using the Wikopedia definitions for TG and TS. Those are not the same as what is commonly found in Psychology textbooks!

A Male TG, using actual definitions, wants not only to dress as a female but also to look and act as femninine as possible. So that he can pass as a female! A Male TS, using the same type of definition, actually wants to become a woman, in every way possible, as Amanda has obviously done!

This informatiion is based on my numerous visits to both Psychologists and Psychiatrists over the 70 years I have been a CD! Yes, I am a CD, and nothing more! I am a man, but I do like to wear feminine clothing on occasion. I have NO desire to pass as a woman, or even to really look like a woman. Sure I wear feminine clothing, but no wig and no makeup! I look like a man in female clothing! That is not what a TG is, not by professional standards!!

But as long as I am called in a timely fashion for dinner, I don't care what you call me!!:heehee:

I'm a crossdresser that just happens to want to pass in public. By any definition that I've seen on this thread that makes me a TG; which by the way I'm damn proud of that title.:daydreaming:

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Originally Posted by Sheila

cool, so it's okay to go around saying trannie then ?

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Sure! Especially since if you use the word tranny, we already know that you don't mean it in an offensive way.

People focus too much on the word. It's the meaning people equate behind the words that should be important.

I always thought labels were for canned vegetables...

Does it really matter whether we see ourselves as CD, TV, TG, or TS? The important thing is that we treat ourselves AND each other with kindness and dignity. We're all seeking the same thing, no matter what path we're following. To be ourselves, and to be treated fairly and and without prejudice, just like anyone else desires.

It matters because it limits confusion and bias. Many SOs wouldn't have the trouble with acceptance that they do if they knew about things like the transgender spectrum and that just because a guy dresses in women's clothes, it doesn't mean he is gay. This has been synonymous in our culture. It causes confusion for SOs and for anyone who is associated with the person who is coming out purely because of ignorance. Sorry, you can say it's apples and oranges...but, I think education on gender issues is extremely lacking and to say that we should just continue with the ignorance and say it's okay is just feeding into it. I hope not to see any of you posting threads about how you were misunderstood then, because it's just apples and oranges...right?

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Originally Posted by Shananigans

It matters because it limits confusion and bias. Many SOs wouldn't have the trouble with acceptance that they do if they knew about things like the transgender spectrum and that just because a guy dresses in women's clothes, it doesn't mean he is gay. This has been synonymous in our culture. It causes confusion for SOs and for anyone who is associated with the person who is coming out purely because of ignorance. Sorry, you can say it's apples and oranges...but, I think education on gender issues is extremely lacking and to say that we should just continue with the ignorance and say it's okay is just feeding into it. I hope not to see any of you posting threads about how you were misunderstood then, because it's just apples and oranges...right?

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It's not about "not educating" Its about using the terminology as a way to divide us.

Ultimately I'm pretty sure we all want the same thing, for the world (and ourselves) to understand us, and accept us. The difference is more in how to go about it. While some wish to categorize us into different groups, I feel we need to take a bigger look at the big picture. If we had a better understanding of our commonalities, it would give us a better understanding of where we fit into the picture.

Educating people is extremely important IMHO, but when we dwell on the differences, and focus on specific little categories of people, we divide ourselves into our own class structure. I've seen numerous examples on this forum, and out in the real world, where someone will say, "there are too many whiny crossdressers" Or they don't understand, "they're just crossdressers"

Things like that sadden me, because it points out the seeming truth that I don't like to see, we are a disjointed group that will have severe difficulty coming together, which (I think) is necessary to advance our equality, and understanding as well as acceptance by the public.

I fully understand the medical necessity of trying to sub-categorize so as to understand our needs better, but while we focus on crossdressing differences and transexual differences, and develop our own little class system, we miss the obvious similarities between the groups.

It would be one thing, if as a whole we celebrated these differences between us all. As we would gain a HUGE insight into different peoples experiences. But we don't, we go on with our own self-pretentiousness, and use the differences as a way to demean other "groups" and justify our own ego.:2c:

The argument is not a focus on differences, but the knowledge that a crossdresser is not synonymous with a transsexual. Furthermore, homsexuality is neither synonymous with crossdresser or transsexual. There is a HUGE misconception surrounding the community at large, and you need only scroll the first few pages of threads to see just that: men trying to explain to their SO that they do not want to be a woman and that they do not want to have sex with a man. I realize that there is more of a spectrum, that everyone is an individual...that people discriminate. However, ignorance is not bliss. I wasn't argusing that the terminology should be used to discriminate, only that it should be more understood. And, when a man tries to explain to his wife, "No, I'm a not going to become a woman...I am not a transsexual...I'm a crossdresser," what do you think that is? There are differences and they are used to explain certain circumstances all of the time. However, the general public is vastly ignorant on this subject all together. Furthermore, to embrace something (to reach that community of understanding) you have to UNDERSTAND. The general public has NO idea. I find it frustrating that I have to worry about my boyfriend being hit on by men when he is dressed because people automatically assume he is gay. Or, that if I were to talk to my family about him being a CD, they would automatically assume he was undergoing surgery. There HAS to be more understanding.

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Originally Posted by JodyCD

It's not about "not educating" Its about using the terminology as a way to divide us.

Educating people is extremely important IMHO, but when we dwell on the differences, and focus on specific little categories of people, we divide ourselves into our own class structure. I've seen numerous examples on this forum, and out in the real world, where someone will say, "there are too many whiny crossdressers" Or they don't understand, "they're just crossdressers"

Things like that sadden me, because it points out the seeming truth that I don't like to see, we are a disjointed group that will have severe difficulty coming together, which (I think) is necessary to advance our equality, and understanding as well as acceptance by the public.

I fully understand the medical necessity of trying to sub-categorize so as to understand our needs better, but while we focus on crossdressing differences and transexual differences, and develop our own little class system, we miss the obvious similarities between the groups.

It would be one thing, if as a whole we celebrated these differences between us all. As we would gain a HUGE insight into different peoples experiences. But we don't, we go on with our own self-pretentiousness, and use the differences as a way to demean other "groups" and justify our own ego.:2c:

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Originally Posted by Lorileah

This subject is posted about every month I think. It always leads to "Don't call me Shirley" by someone who takes offense
... It always seems to be taken as someone poking a stick into a den of vipers (which are in fact a subset of snakes which is a subset of reptiles....But you immediately saw in your mind a viper not a Bull snake. Point made?)

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Surely you're joking about the vipers?:heehee:

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Originally Posted by JodyCD

It's not about "not educating" Its about using the terminology as a way to divide us.

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If used appropriately, terminology can be descriptive and educational rather than devisive.

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Originally Posted by Shananigans

It matters because it limits confusion and bias. Many SOs wouldn't have the trouble with acceptance that they do if they knew about things like the transgender spectrum and that just because a guy dresses in women's clothes, it doesn't mean he is gay. This has been synonymous in our culture. It causes confusion for SOs and for anyone who is associated with the person who is coming out purely because of ignorance. Sorry, you can say it's apples and oranges...but, I think education on gender issues is extremely lacking and to say that we should just continue with the ignorance and say it's okay is just feeding into it. I hope not to see any of you posting threads about how you were misunderstood then, because it's just apples and oranges...right?

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Well said!!!

[SIZE="2"]“The meaning of a word is its use in language” (Wittgenstein)[/SIZE]

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Originally Posted by Jessica Britton

I always thought labels were for canned vegetables...
Does it really matter whether we see ourselves as CD, TV, TG, or TS? The important thing is that we treat ourselves AND each other with kindness and dignity. We're all seeking the same thing, no matter what path we're following. To be ourselves, and to be treated fairly and without prejudice, just like anyone else desires.

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[SIZE="2"]You don’t think we’re canned vegetables? Welcome to the pantry! :heehee:

Yes, I agree we are all seeking the same thing, meeting other “pilgrims” along this formless path we are following. Treating each other with kindness and dignity is what it’s all about, an exercise in humility and understanding that transcends the prejudice on display in everyday life. I liken this place to an oasis of ultra gender-unspecific exploration, where members from all sorts of backgrounds meet to discuss their “findings.” If you are CD, TV, TG, or TS, I naturally like you, and I welcome you as my long-lost friend. I only disagree with one’s sensibilities that clash with the transgendered expression one may embrace, or be at odds with, but that is trivial and rare….[/SIZE]

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Originally Posted by JodyCD

I fully understand the medical necessity of trying to sub-categorize so as to understand our needs better, but while we focus on crossdressing differences and transexual differences, and develop our own little class system, we miss the obvious similarities between the groups.
It would be one thing, if as a whole we celebrated these differences between us all. As we would gain a HUGE insight into different peoples experiences. But we don't, we go on with our own self-pretentiousness, and use the differences as a way to demean other "groups" and justify our own ego.

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[SIZE="2"]Well, I agree there are “obvious similarities” between the groups, since we are all lumped together on this site for better or worse, but I don’t perceive the “class system” you’re talking about. Labels and categorizations don’t bother me at all, because we are living in a language-conscious period of time – it is consistently amusing to me that some crossdressers have such problems with identifiable names, medical necessity notwithstanding. Once you come HERE you will come up against the barrier of labels, but what of it? Is it so terrible to find out what you are, and that there are others who don’t share your particular take on the indefinable lifestyle you are engaged in? Since I’ve been here I have gained the aforesaid “huge insight” into experiences within the transgendered world – all variations therein are my sisters and brothers, no matter what my particular “take” on things may be. I came here to learn, period. Transgender is a curious word thought up by others (did I miss a meeting?), but I suppose it has to be called something. My preferred word for this cherished, magical “world” is beautiful…:) [/SIZE]

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Originally Posted by Shananigans

The argument is not a focus on differences, but the knowledge that a crossdresser is not synonymous with a transsexual. Furthermore, homsexuality is neither synonymous with crossdresser or transsexual. There is a HUGE misconception surrounding the community at large, and you need only scroll the first few pages of threads to see just that: men trying to explain to their SO that they do not want to be a woman and that they do not want to have sex with a man. I realize that there is more of a spectrum, that everyone is an individual...that people discriminate. However, ignorance is not bliss. I wasn't argusing that the terminology should be used to discriminate, only that it should be more understood. And, when a man tries to explain to his wife, "No, I'm a not going to become a woman...I am not a transsexual...I'm a crossdresser," what do you think that is? There are differences and they are used to explain certain circumstances all of the time. However, the general public is vastly ignorant on this subject all together. Furthermore, to embrace something (to reach that community of understanding) you have to UNDERSTAND. The general public has NO idea. I find it frustrating that I have to worry about my boyfriend being hit on by men when he is dressed because people automatically assume he is gay. Or, that if I were to talk to my family about him being a CD, they would automatically assume he was undergoing surgery. There HAS to be more understanding.

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The positive side is, we both have the same ultimate goal, we just differ on the way to achieve it.:)

I do believe a lot of the people have missed the point I'm trying to make, but I'm at a loss of how to explain my thoughts better. I'll dwell on it, and beat the dead horse till I come up with a better way to express it.

In the mean time have a drink on me! :drink: coz I am! :hugs:

Wow..... this is deep.....

"What is the meaning of "is"?" W.J Clinton

I humbly suggest we all go back and read Tamara"s post (#11)

Renee
"Just a Tranny"

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I have a great idea. We do like they do in cars and computer software. Just release different versions!


I think all these labels are destructive.

You don't have gay-light, gay-standard, and gay-professional so why have drossdresser, transvestite, drag(king/queen), transgender, transsexual, gender-queer, etc, etc, etc.

Why can't we just be transgender and shut up about it? If you want to live full time as a woman, great you're transgender. If you just want to wear women's clothes on tuesdays and sunday, you are transgender.

Yeah I know they have twinks and bears and all that crap but in the public eye it is gay period.

It should be transgender period end of story have a good life.

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Agreed! We are who we are. We're different. Who gives a flying you-know-what what the terminology is?

I'm sorry, but one of the most hysterical groups posting here are the CDers who talk all macho and het. You CD, you ain't macho, ok? I have, up until this time, never had a gay or bi experience, but I realize my CDing puts me into another category of theoretical straights. I am open to ALL possibilities and am not in way shamed to admit it.

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Originally Posted by Sheila

cool, so it's okay to go around saying trannie then ?

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Sure
As long as your talking about your car to your mechanic :lol2:

Having an umbrella term is a good thing. The members here don't specify their gender IDs, either in their posts or under their names. So it's handy to have a generalized term to use in posts if you don't want to insult anyone. If I'm using an example of a relationship in a response, I'd hate to say to an OP who is a married CD and who identifies as a man, *a TS, or a woman, and her wife*. And I don't think an OP who is a transwoman married to a GG would appreciate reading, *a CD, or a man, and her wife* either. And not everyone has representational avatars. Plus, the likenesses in avatars are so small that it is hard to tell many times who is who. Especially if I'm not wearing my glasses. lol.

*TG* is just a safe term to use if you haven't read many posts by a person and you don't know their details. So it does confuse things even further when people equate TG with TS, while others equate TG with CD. And it is maddening when the members of a community refuse to accept what are widely accepted definitions, and stubbornly insist on using their own. [EDIT - or none! It makes it difficult to use descriptive language.]

Honestly, it reminds me of my kids, each insisting on having their very own branch to decorate on the Christmas tree, when there was the entire tree to think of. This is acceptable behavior among children, but not in adults.

:2c:

Shakespeare wrote,"A rose is a rose, is a rose. By any other name would smell as sweet." OR in some opinions here would stink. There are some here who just don't like to be labeled and that in it self becomes a label. As for me, I have been in my life, labeled unjustly for other things than my girly ways. But I have found ways to live with it and made it a positive factor for good in my life. Right now I will answer to anything that seems to please you or anyone else. After all it is not the label that I hang on me that's important, it is the label that others hang on me that defines me to the world. The trick it seems is to somehow convince people that we are just people and not all those other labels that don't mean much more than another way of saying your different. And different in this case is not a compliment.