The man she married. Really?

I was the man she married , I dressed more prior to marriage then the whole 23 years of marriage, openly. Then I was asked to never do it again in which I did agree to..

But I found out the hard way , you can't surpress it.
But yes I was the guy she fell in love with, sometimes even without cding marriages fall apart and people grow away from one another. Someone is always going to be hurt but life does go on..If ever asked , "would I go back and relive it all" I would say just the first 10 years..BTW ...I have never been to a breast store:eek:

I am the man she married, but also I am not the man she married.

I am the same physical being, who, apart from a lot less hair on top, some missing teeth, failing eyesight, a few wrinkles & scars and less stamina in the bedroom, has not changed much. Hey, I still have clothes in my wardrobe from before we were married and they still fit perfectly - being a naturist means that clothes tend to have a much longer life!

Marriage or indeed any relationship has an effect on all those involved, which will inevitably lead to change.

I think the underlying issue here is really whether our wives knew everything about us before we were married. Indeed did we know everything about our wives before we were married. It's a two way street.

Skeletons in closets are OK so long as they stay locked away and have no chance of appearing now or in the future. Why rock the boat with things from the past if they have no bearing on the present.

However, I would be the first to say that lies and deception are not good for a marriage, but I am sure that some CD'ers think that their habits will change once they are married. (Not a chance really, as you have now gained access to a whole new wardrobe, assuming you are a similar size.) If secret habits do not change, then honesty is the only true way forward.

Seriously I'm not the same man I was a week ago, much less any number of years back.

Speaking of my long tern relationship, just ten years, we both changed beyond recognition over those ten years so no, by the time it was over... I cetainly was not the man she kicked it off with, but then... She was not th girl I met at 18.

People change, and for some of us it means moving on :/

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Originally Posted by Sarah Charles

He didn't use makeup, wear women's clothing, buy things from the Breastform Store and shop the makeup counter.

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So if I was to do anything different or buy anything different from before then I am a changed man? Don't think so. If our passion was say power tools and this was not a passion we showed before marriage, would we need this forum to exist because enjoying power tools is considered weird resulting in lots of unhappy SOs sweeping the issue under the carpet etc.

Did women stop being women when they began to wear pants and jeans?

I think you are missing the point.

Everyone changes but most of our core values and personality traits remain fairly constant. This is true of CDs.

It is because society believes men displaying femininity is perverted and thus taboo that this forum exists. (excluding TS issues). This is the one and only factor that matters. All the issues we deal with on this forum stem from this single fact and determine the paths that CDs and SOs follow.

Believing that you are not the same person just because you have changed your appearance is irrelevant. Appearance is only skin deep. You are the same person whether you wear pants or a skirt, with or without makeup. You are succumbing to the black and white mentality that society uses to discriminate against feminine males. Please snap out of it pronto:eek:

Either one works really :doh:

I was fully expecting to get flamed for this but I guess enough people realized this is just a cop out on our sugnifigannt others part. It is easy to play that card on us and make us feel guilty for it.

There is plenty we don't like about how our spouses turned out but we deal with it because we love the hell out of them. I love my wife so much it just does not matter to me. She feels the same about Christine and she shares in the shopping and many other issues. She is not yet comfortable enough to go to the SCC with me, I bet next year she will.

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Originally Posted by Sarah Charles

I see the phrase "I'm still the man she married." on a regular basis here. Okay, I'm admitting that I'm not the brightest candle on the birthday cake today. I've used it myself and just recently realized that since I didn't tell her before we were married that I am a crossdresser I'm NOT the man she agreed to marry.

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[SIZE="2"]But everyone has secrets that come out over time, true? You can be the man she agreed to marry and be a crossdresser, but I imagine explaining that idea is rather difficult, especially if the idea of someone else’s manifested desires bump into everyday life. I avoid it all by keeping my mouth shut, but I was ready to get married a few years ago, and my girlfriend had no idea of my CD nature. I didn’t really think about it, I mean whether it would return further down the road in our relationship, but I had suppressed my crossdressing in an attempt to embrace normalcy. My girlfriend wondered why I enjoyed shopping for women’s clothes with her, but I never even hinted at the truth behind the façade. So much was going on at the time, both inside and outside the relationship, that any spur-of-the-moment revelation would’ve been damaging. Years later, she still doesn’t know, but that’s beside the point. I think you can still be the man she married, albeit a more interesting and complicated human being in all ways – if she didn’t welcome this knowledge at first, I think she would over time. I know I would welcome such a disclosure, but I’m somewhat pre-disposed to…

BTW, aren’t all the candles relatively equal in brightness? I’ll get my light meter…[/SIZE]

I think a better phrase would be "you never were the man I married". The real problem is not that you have changed, but that you kept it a secret from before you were even married.

I believe in total honesty in a marriage. Your spouse should be the one person you can tell anything. Maybe I am just lucky, but it works for me.

In reality, I suspect that most crossdressers make better husbands. It should be an asset.

Juno

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Originally Posted by silhouette

Lol, I hope you meant scolded.
If your wife scalds you for insulting her weight gain then you've got an entirely different set of problems

:tongueout

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domestic abuse?

The husband may be the same in all other respects than presentation, taking into account changes brought about by normal aging and through life enriching experiences, but the thing that sources him, what sets off his passion has shifted significantly in ways that understandably cause a wife to feel as if her husband is not the man she married.

Apart from all the normal life changes, if it were just the presentation that is now altered, there would not be a significant difference in the husband now compared to years ago pre CD, or before he began to identify so solidly as a woman or as trans.

But the gender focus has changed significantly, and with it, some telling behaviors in the romance department. Where previously he might have been more guy-like in pursuing his wife (letting her know in no uncertain terms that she turns him on), he now is more passive, possibly preferring her to chase him (or to initiate), to the point where she wonders if he finds his femme self more attractive or more exciting than his wife. Where previously he would have loved to have seen his wife in sexy things and he would have enjoyed giving them to her, now he prefers these things for himself. Where he might have seen a beautiful piece of jewelry and like other guys he might have wanted to please her with it just to see her eyes light up, now he wants it for himself. Where before he loved to spend time with her, doing things with her, now nothing excites him more than to go out dressed and experience life with people whom he believes treat him like a woman.

I'm not writing these things as a put-down or as a way to imply that the husbands become lesser men through the CDing, as nothing can be further from the truth. But the focus does change in ways that many GGs find difficult to understand, since they fundamentally still want to be in relationships with men who believe themselves to be men and who treat their wives like women.

How does a wife change? Also through the usual life enriching experiences: maturation through aging and having had children, perhaps a few extra pounds, maybe now she is in a career after having spent more time at home with the kids, but fundamentally her romantic focus is the same. As is her gender. Except maybe she is more distant now through the self-protective measures she's taken after perceiving her husband's focus shift away from her through the years.

I'm sorry to be so harsh, and I know I'm not describing everyone here. But I attempted to describe the types of things that make a woman believe that her husband is not the man she married. He's much more a woman now.

well, I had this discussion with my wife a couple weeks back, and told her I felt bad that I didn't tell her earlier on, but that I didn't really understand and accept it myself, and that is why I didn't tell her. I said "I know I should have told you sooner, I mean, You didn't sign up for this, and I understand that" She turned it around on me, and said "So what? You didn't sign up for a sick wife, should I have disclosed that I was going to get sick in a few years even though I didn't know it? What the hell is wrong with you?"

The question is too general to answer. It would be like playing darts with the lights out.

As Les Mccann would say..."Compared to What?". That was a great jazz hit by the way...

"I'm still the man she married."

but..."Are you still the man she THOUGHT she married?"

If you waited until after you were married to make her aware of the CD interests...the answer is "no".

Just my opinion...:love:

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Originally Posted by ReineD

But the focus does change in ways that many GGs find difficult to understand, since they fundamentally still want to be in relationships with men who believe themselves to be men and who treat their wives like women.

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You make some interesting points Reine but if I can summarize you are pointing out that the traditional role of a man who is to adorn, romance and delight his wife and this is her expectation. Some CDs instead transfer the focus of their attention and treat themselves to these delights leaving the wife feeling ignored and unloved.

While no doubt true for many, I have an issue with the underlying assumptions that the duty is on the man to wine and dine his partner. This smacks of sexist inequality placing a duty to provide on the man for the women's enjoyment. Just as men had to allow women access to their privileges so women have to learn likewise. Womens' expectations need to change as equality is not a one way street.

Now I know that gender equality for men is nowhere near as advanced as that for women so I realize that such progressive thinking is not commonplace. Still if a wife accepts her CD partner, she should also realize that her traditional female expectations need to change and privileges shared. I wonder how much this aspect is discussed amongst couples. Probably not much. Getting past the physical change and the emotional/sexual impacts is usually more than enough without discussing how the wife should share things she previously thought were her sole preserve.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

fundamentally her romantic focus is the same. As is her gender.

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I am not sure that is the case. While she may think she has not changed, women's societal roles have changed dramatically over the years. So if she is keeping up with recent trends then her gender and relationship ideals almost certainly have altered significantly just not driven by individual needs like a CD.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

But I attempted to describe the types of things that make a woman believe that her husband is not the man she married. He's much more a woman now.

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Again following from my points above, a woman who was married decades ago is much more "manly" now because of changing social values. So many men can point to their wives and say she is not the woman I married, she is more like a man now. Men adjusted, so can women.

My points illuminate the contrast in the changing gender roles for men and women. Women still expect to hang onto their privileges because society teaches them that men have no feminine side. Whereas women now demand full access to all male privileges and take this for granted.

The important difference is that womens' gender roles changed society-wide and are condoned. Every male CD has to negotiate his rights to female privileges individually in the privacy of a one-on-one relationship where his wife is making compromises other women are not being asked to make. That makes it much tougher for wives of CDs since there is no societal support or "fairness" in giving up traditional expectations like adoration.

20 minutes before you tell her, and 20 minutes after, you are of course, the same person. Just ask yourself. She, on the other hand, can't agree. Won't agree. Couldn't possibly agree. She hasn't seen you in a dress in 30 years, and now you say it's what you do in your spare time? It's all perception. You don't or won't see it for whatever reason. Your perception of you hasn't changed from 20 minutes before to 20 minutes after. How can you possibly think she's going to be the same?

Expectations - Realisations = Disappointments. It's basic math.

It's not like an expanding waistline, or receeding hairline. These things happen gradually over a long period of time, and most importantly, they're expected (1-1=0). You think your wife expected this? Do you think that when you sit down with her and say, "Honey, there's something I have to tell you," you being a CD even hits the top 10? Coming out to an unprepared wife all at once is 10-0=10. A big disappointment.

Coming out after so long hiding away just doesn't compare to a few extra pounds. It's not a gradual change. Her perception is a complete 180. It's not the same as coming out early - there's heavy investment, there's long term commitments. It's not the same as always having been "a little extra" feminine and growing into it. It's you taking away her ability to choose for herself - perhaps one of the best definitions of selfishness in a relationship there is.

It's the difference between coming to a stop by letting your foot of the pedal or running into a wall. You've stopped in both cases - but one's done some damage. Use your brakes right, and you can minimise the damage done.

Yes and yes to both. I'm am the transgender she has always known from the start. I made a promise to my self if I ever got in a relationship ever again they would know from the start. They have a right to know. She had the option to accept it or not. She understood there was no comprise on Carrieann going away. She knew my goals to go on hormones and go all the way. I changed my goals after counseling. As far as i want to go is a TV. My choice she has supported me sll the way as long as I'm happy with myself. Because if your not happy with yourself you can't be happy with your S/O.

We are not talking about the natural changes people face over years. We are calling about a big, big feature of us that some of us did not disclose to our wives.

Maybe we are the same man, but we purposely hid part of this man to our wives. And this is deception.

A different story it would be if we turn into a crossdressers after marriage, but this is a very rare case (although possible, I guess)

Satrana, thanks for your comments. :)

My post was based on my interactions with the GGs in this forum over the years. Their feelings may be justified, or they may be completely irrational. But the feelings do exist and I was attempting to explain why some of the GGs feel the way they do. I may not have used the best examples, since each couple has their own issues.

The importance is that GGs do feel a shift of attention or focus when a husband explores the CDing, and the GGs who say their husbands are not the men they married say this in part because they feel left out of the picture, compared to the way it was before they knew about the CDing and before it has progressed. I've no doubt that a GG who has become a golf widow would say the same thing. She feels that her priority in her husband's life has also changed and it is just as difficult for her.

But getting back to the CDing, not all GGs will feel the shift to the same degree. The severity of it depends on the degree of pink fog and the quality of communication between them, and yes, a GGs own difficulty in adjusting her expectations of her changed position as the one and only woman in the relationship. Some (if not most?) GGs want to be married to men who identify as men, no matter how either gender roles have changed in the last century.

I disagree that the changing of societal roles has made men and women more androgynous, or has approached the gender gap in significantly deeper ways than the ability to earn income or vote. It wasn't too many centuries ago that no one could vote, not even men. This is a very sketchy example, but I have in mind a picture of a family on a farm generations ago. The man had his work in the fields, and the woman had hers in the kitchen garden and in the home, which was just as physically taxing for her as his work was for him. They both contributed to the best of their abilities to the family's welfare. I don't think women feel more masculine just because they earn a salary now, or that men feel more feminine when they do more around the house in a two-income family. I don't know that any of this has significantly altered their dynamics in the bedroom. But, I could be wrong. It's a difficult thing to analyze and quantify.

I think the main thing to realize is it doesn't matter. IT REALLY DOESNT MATTER! You told her, she now has to face it. And whatever happens happens. YOU have to be simpathetic. If she doesn't want to see it, and you want to remain married, then only dress when she isn't around, and keep your stuff hidden. If it's more than you can bear, then tell her that, and see where it goes from there. If it leads to divorce it leads to divorce. If it doesn't it doesn't. Stop analyzing and dicing up your life and everyone elses lives simply to try to justify yourself. You need no justification for being a crossdresser, you just are. And your wife needs no justification for not liking it. She just dont. End of story, time for bed. Now turn that light off and get to sleep. Sweet dreams.

Oh, and as for the comment that you should ALWAYS tell before you get married unless you became a crossdresser AFTER you got married, which you said you doubted. Well, I myself started dressing at age 6, but I tried to write it off as young curiosity. Then I did again, with a previous girlfriend, wrote it off as sexy play. then after I got married, I got the urge again, I didn't know why. Thought maybe I was going through a stressful period, and reverting back to childhood fantasies, or whatever, but I enjoyed it allot. ANd kept going back to it, trying to deny it, I had even gone about 11 years without having dressed. But guess what, it came back, and this time it wasn't going to be dismissed. So, now here I am, a crossdresser, like it or not, for better or worse, till death do us part. No way I can stop. I have tried, it actually makes me ill, and VERY depressed. So, in a way, I have been this way all my life, yet in a way, I became a crossdresser AFTER I got maried. I dunno... Hard one.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

The importance is that GGs do feel a shift of attention or focus when a husband explores the CDing

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For sure anyone exploring a new exciting aspect of their lives will be somewhat consumed and will leave their partner wanting for more attention. But the examples you listed, which I presume are typical GG comments, are more than just wanting more attention, they are centered upon women "wanting to be treated as women" ie the traditional role where the woman is the center of attention and is complimented, adored, receives gifts to add to her beauty etc ie the husband does things to enhance his wife's sense of femininity. This is not an issue for most males since they have been programmed to ignore their own feminine side but obviously CDs are likely to be different. They want their own sense of femininity enhanced and this is something which I would suspect most GGs feel threatened by at least on a subconscious level just as men were reported to feel threatened when women entered the workplace.

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GGs want to be married to men who identify as men, no matter how either gender roles have changed in the last century.

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But that statement is loaded with traditional expectations. Aside from those who are TS, the men here do still identify as male but with a feminine side. This is like saying a woman who only wears pants, plays competitive sports, chases after a career and is not interested in being a housewife or mother does not identify as a woman. We know that is not true yet the same understanding is not extended to CD males. Most CDs spend 95%+ as a male.

I think this disconnect happens as I mentioned in my last post because this is not a societal movement but a private issue. The GG is being tasked to alter her gender concepts with regard to a single man rather than all men. The fact that the other men she meets daily still follow the traditional male role will only exaggerate any discomfort she feels having the share the feminine limelight with her husband.

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I disagree that the changing of societal roles has made men and women more androgynous, or has approached the gender gap in significantly deeper ways than the ability to earn income or vote.

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The issue is not about androgyny but about how gender roles have changed. You cannot say that a typical woman who lived 50 years ago had a totally different life to one living today today. Almost every aspect of her life is different and the behavior that she was expected to display. Even the fact that a woman can now be financially independent has massive knock-on effects on every other aspect of gender relations. Little though has been said about how this affected men. Because these changes were being pushed by the feminist movement's drive for equality, men were told to deal with it or be labeled a chauvinist. I am sure some men did feel devalued and insecure about these changes as they took place.

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I don't think women feel more masculine just because they earn a salary now, or that men feel more feminine when they do more around the house in a two-income family. I don't know that any of this has significantly altered their dynamics in the bedroom.

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No I dont think women do feel more masculine but men (not just CDs) have noted women are less feminine. Gender places great emphasis on expectations - men show look and act this way, women should look and act that way. When one gender changes their behavior (for the better) the other gender is left scratching their heads and feeling left out.

I think the CD cause tends to get a raw deal. There are obvious comparisons to be made with women challenging their gender barriers but they are rarely made. This is because the CD cause is never framed as a quest for equality but rather the private needs of TG individuals. Yet the issues and feelings generated are fundamentally the same.

no and no again
but then again she is not the woman I married either

she is now the MAN I'm going to marry and I'm
the WOMAN he will marry

all things end
but the fun begins again for some :devil:

Danni :hugs:

Some deep stuff here.

"Am I the man she married?" There's not really an easy answer.

Although everyone evolves and develops over the years does the basis of who we are remain unchanged?

The Johari Window, developed at the University of California in the 1950s, represents the four parts of Self. Lots of links on the web. In the quadrant "Known to Self" / "Unknown to Others" is "My Hidden Self". Guess where CDing would be for most of us.........

So even if it's there, it is a part of who we are. Coming out just moves it into another quadrant.

Or maybe the real question should be "Am I the man she thought she married?".

That moves into a whole different arena.

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Originally Posted by Susan Dee

Or maybe the real question should be "Am I the man she thought she married?".

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I agree.

[SIZE="3"]This is deep stuff! There are valid points made by all, Reine has some. Satrana, and all do. I agree with Satrana, though, about how the feminist almost totally changed society, and sadly, men HAVE become devalued, "down in the ashes", and generally not needed or desired by women anymore. I have definitely noticed how boys and girls both are crass, cussing brats, these days. I have noticed that almost all grade school, and high school, and college girls wear ONLY jeans. Girls first started being allowed to wear pants to high school, in 1971. I noticed a change in attitudes after that. As a bachelor, for 56 yrs, I have about written off any chance for marriage. I told a single lady counselor, on the personals, the honest truth about me, includung CDing. I though as a counsellor, she might be more open, but, I got an e-mail, telling me, "good look in your search". Reine, I respect you a lot, and your honesty, but, dear, there is a HUGE DOUBLE STANDARD. GG's have a FREE PASS, to basically do anything they want, and wear anything they desire, and it's ok. Men, and CD's are cruelly stifled! No wonder we die earlier, except in my tyrannical dad's case! But, even he has been conditioned wrongly. We live in a crass, dangerous, heard-hearted time, despite all the talk. Women largely pull the strings of our society, and rule it, by default. Single women make up 60% of college and university students! 60% of degees go to women now. Single women, as a average greatly out earn single men. There needs to be respect and mercy between GG's and mates, knowing we all fall short of perfection. I do remember, as a kid, when ladies wore mostly dresses and skirts, they did seem more femine, ladylike. One reason I dress, is to resemble that, when dressed.[/SIZE]

It is a dilema. When I came out to my girlfriend after 2 years of going out, I felt the same way, that I wasnt the guy she agreed to go out with and fell in love with. But after 2 years and loving each other she said its too late now and she will accept me because she already loves me. But she admitted if I would have told her closer to the beginning of our relationship she would have broken up with me. She is not really looking for a cross dresser, but we accept our SO's for who they are. She has her own issues, that I didnt know about either.

Well a couple of weeks ago I was at the the therapist with my wife. The therapist practically lead my wife to the fountain on "Not the Man she Married" thing. My wife shares and has even gone out with me a few times dressed and really enjoyed it. But I think when I want to take the next step with HRT she kind of has to think a lot about that. Right now she is fundamentally against it and wants me to stay in the mode I am in now. But I hear ya on the not the same man thing.
I like a few others who have responded, have a tough time with this one. She knew about me before and my CD. I think she is just apprehensive that I will change too much. The therapist also did a good job of describing in detail how much I would change once on HRT. Physically and mentally but all I read about is everyone is different when undergoing HRT.

Needless to say I have taken a break from this therapist and am working on myself not trying to get too depressed over it. Since I have gotten to the point I have it seems ever so unnatural I am not traveling down the path I hoped to be right now. I have chosen to take it day to day and tell myself as long as I can still dress and be myself at home I will take it slow. I am keeping the lines of communication with my wife open and hope she understands some time later on. Regardless I know in side I will always be the same kind, nurturing, understanding, and loving person she married. My two cents worth anyway.
Huggs Everyone
Sharee

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Originally Posted by juno

I believe in total honesty in a marriage. Your spouse should be the one person you can tell anything. Maybe I am just lucky, but it works for me.

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Yes, you're just lucky. But most often, if we told them before marriage, most of them would never have married us. That was what I found out when I went for marriage counseling. Most women, when asked about it, would not marry a crossdresser. Once the deed is done, some of them try to adjust, but often that doesn't work either. The attraction is gone.
People fall in love with an image, an image they create of what they think we are based on the knowledge they have at the time. The 'rose colored glasses' also conveniently ignore any negative things they might notice. While there is room for new information, that often precludes anything that disturbs their sexual attraction to us. Most women find feminine things about their husbands/boyfriends uncomfortable; when it reaches the point where we appear female, it's often the kiss of death for the relationship.

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Originally Posted by Treetop Louise

there is a HUGE DOUBLE STANDARD. GG's have a FREE PASS, to basically do anything they want, and wear anything they desire, and it's ok.

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That's because for them, they don't try to be or feel or act like men when they wear male clothing. All too often, we seek more than just the clothes, no matter what we say. See all the threads about how to act like a woman, how to talk like a woman, how to walk like a woman, how to do all the little mannerisms like a woman, the list goes on forever. Look at all the men who go so far as to write tee hee or giggle giggle in their posts here. Women don't do that when they wear male clothes. They just act normal. I can't remember the last time I saw a woman grab her crotch, lower her voice, or walk with a swagger when wearing what are stereotypically male clothing. They're not doing it to embrace masculinity. Basically, they do it because it's less trouble to wear loose, comfortable male clothing than it is to have to be an attractive female. It's a lot of work to be pretty, and when you have to do it every waking moment, it becomes exhausting after a while. Sometimes, they just want to opt out for a while. THAT'S nearly always the reason why women wear mens clothing. It's a very, very different reason from why we wear female clothing.
All the typically male traits that women find attractive basically disappear when we dress up and act female. Women depend on us for protection; stability is one of those things they expect of us. Suddenly finding out we're crossdressers makes that stable trait disappear as well. Displaying femininity makes them question if they are secure or not. It also makes them question their marriage, because most people believe feminine men are all gay or transexuals, and no matter how much you protest that you are the same as when you got married, they feel differently. They worry that you will eventually leave them anyway, and then the love is lost. After all, you fooled them once, so they no longer trust you either.
Also, they have to deal with their own self worth. Women, whether they want to admit it or not, judge how well they've done in life by how good a husband they 'cought'. Yes, this is the 21st century, but if you listen to the discussions women have amongst themselves, you will still hear phrases like 'look how well she's done for herself' or 'she cought a good one', when referring to who someone has become engaged to or married. The goal is still to marry a financially, professionally successful, physically imposing if possible, masculine man. Not a guy in a dress who likes to put on make up and heels. When's the last time you heard a woman brag about her man " You should see how he fills out a demi-bra, his cleavage is amazing! And what great legs, he can wear miniskirts anytime. I swear, I wish I had beautiful long hair like his, and he hardly has to wear any make up to look hot!". Never. That's how often.
We may still be the man she married. But we're not the man she thought she married. And that's the only man she wants. And when she realizes she can't get him back, she doesn't want him at all.