any other "sensative" guys guestioned for not being like "normal" guys?

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Originally Posted by trappedNhere

But, she often accused me of being not normal. This is usually when she is mad. She also says I'm gay (as a slap). I've told her I am but that she is my soul mate and in love with her. Which I am. Anyway, she always uses this to demean me. Feel attacked. So coming out is very hard.

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[SIZE="2"]A true soul mate wouldn’t “accuse” you of anything, nor would she “slap” you with the gay card. If you feel attacked, you are, but love is love, I suppose. I don’t think anybody is truly normal, but we, as crossdressers, are more un-normal by degree. If you’re sensitive, you’re a good person. I’m sorry you are having this difficulty. Sometimes I think men and women aren’t meant to be together, but I would, anyway. I’m not heterosexual. I’m beginning to think that only another male crossdresser could fully understand why a male would want to crossdress in the first place. That opinion is based on the anguished posts I read here each and every day.
:sad:[/SIZE]

Interesting experience. I, personally, love the fact that people notice I'm different. That way, when they find out things like that I cross-dress they are not surprised and I don't have to explain myself. My wife's pretty understanding, though. It would be hard if my wife used it against me.

I recently discovered this book by Dr Robert Glover that speaks to this subject and really got me thinking...

http://www.nomoremrniceguy.com/

There is also an online support group here...

http://www.nomoremrniceguy.com/forums/index.php

I have been single all my 56 yrs, and was different, and bullied through schools. I was afraid of girls, even though i adored them. In my 30's I dated a good amount, but, the women i wanted to court, i can tell, found me too weak, and passive, or not as manly as their fathers, or ex mated. One lady would have married me, if I had the means to support her and her two kids. I did not. I have been ridiculed by my older brothers for being weak and sensitive, and I currently am helping care for my passive aggressive, controlling father, who does not respect me, does not think i am a real man. And, I am about to give up on dating, as dozens of gg's have rejected noce guy me, and I cannot meet their wants. I am ok looking as a guy, but lack confidence. I don't have an ice cream cone's chance in death valley, anymore. I feel i cannot be the real me, and be wanted or respected by a GG, especially the baby boomers my age, who are so spoiled! I had to make the lady in the mirror, because I could never win a real one. Is this mainly an American problem!?

And, one more thing, as one other poster said, all my life, I have seen the gg's go after the aggressive men, and jerks, mostly, while many nice guy, sensitive guys, can only be friends, with gg's. Most gg's go for the hard guys.

I lost a partner many years ago. She basically told me to go. The biggest loss to me, I lost a very close friend. Now I regret having lost our friendship. She told me she wanted to be friends, I said no way. Now I suffer because she understood me better than anyone. Sensitivity is something I think lies within most males. When one has a child, the sensitive caring part evolves. When someone needs to confide, the sensitive side takes the time to listen. I think that currently many are after the dollar and sensitivity stands in the way. Many men fear showing this side as it may mean weakness. Some women may seek the "man" to protect them and be strong. Funny, now I see sensitivity as a way to understand oneself. Crossdressing to me allows me to develop my sensitivity to others: human, animal or insect.

There are several deep issues here. First off, we have to accept that most GGs simply don't get crossdressing. It crosses wires in their brains and messes with their self-image and their life-long, culturally reinforced ideas about masculinity. Straight women feel their femininity in contrast to masculinity, so a sensitive guy leaves them flat. It feels too much like a girlfriend, without passion. Tima put it very well:

"I’m beginning to think that only another male crossdresser could fully understand why a male would want to crossdress in the first place."

She is being mean to you and demeaning your "masculinity" because, in her experience of you, her "needs" aren't being met, that is, her need for masculine energy to fuel her feminine energy. She's not getting off on your femme side, so she's unconsciously pushing you away.

The 800 pound gorilla in the room is the fact that you are gay and openly admit that to her. It sounds like she doesn't want to be partnered with a gay crossdresser; just not her thing; doesn't turn her on; wouldn't have hooked up with you if she had known this was coming, etc. But the pampering is nice .... and convenient. Her friends think you are priceless. But she feels she is paying a high price.

Bottom line, she doesn't appreciate you or understand you. If you want this relationship to succeed, you will have to find a very good, trans-friendly counselor or therapist to help the two of you work it out. You both deserve a life that is fulfilling.

Again thanks to all of you.

I am responding specifically to kay tho (as I tried the link, but think Blackberry on fritz). I want to clear up any confusion I may have caused.

From the very first (actually during our first phone conversation) I told her I was Gay or maybe even bi-sexual, but just found men to be "dreamy", actually used that word, and increadably sexy. But at that point (and still to this day) had only experemented once in high school (lost THAT friend as a result). She laughed and stated she couldn't understand that cause males bodys are "icky". She loves the womans form (don't we all)!

Now funny part is she is repulsed by the idea of touching a woman, or so she says Teven herself). I always comment positivly on her form (am soooo envious) shapely, sensual, sexy.

I'm rambling, I think what was once ok may have changed as she has progressed with age. Maybe, she needs to feel those things I've told her. I do get arousal from her (and share that too). But she may not be able to seperate needing a "real" man from how she views me.

Just so sad.

Btw: did any of you hear that Barbara Billingsly (June Cleaver of LLeave it to Beaver fame) passed away yesterday. I will post comments on that in another string.

Again to all. Thank you and sisterly love.

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Originally Posted by trappedNhere

I know, I know, what the heck is normal anyway. But here is the situation. My wife often comments, and her friends too, that I'm just to "sweet" and not like normal men.

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[SIZE="3"]I'm not sure "normal" is necessarily a positive attribute anyway.[/SIZE]

We are of same mind & heart Danielle! My sentiments EXACTLY! It is my opinion that...too many GG women are so hung-up on the most superficial aspects of men, to the point of making it the prime criteria of who they choose to dedicate themselves to. A mans 'looks' for instance. Does he have that certain kind of smile, lovely blue eyes or Hollywood profile? Or is what captivates that don't give a damn distance, emotional resistance, remoteness, indefinable cuteness? Is he a tough, inarticulate & rough, bold & barking ruff ruff... manly man? Or does a simple dimpled, all out attractive pet fit the plan? Is he very handsome this way his way or that? Oh poor naieve GG friend, are you swallowing what they've been feeding you? Those guy from Madison Avenue. Advertising execs who dream up whats next, define the good, the bad and ugly among us. Then they wonder why oh why - I wanna die - what's wrong with me, why did he leave, why does he treat me so callous and cruel. What did I do oh boo hoo. Sad.

Actually, I adore most women!!! By contrast to the men they bed, I'm very sensitive to a womans needs. Am well-equipped, well-intentioned, and quite selflessly motivated to give myself, to sacrifice, to strive to do what needs done to have to hold to love...to keep her safe, pour her wine, to make her entire lovely world shine. What I've discovered is this is NOT considered attractive, manly or desirable. In fact, it's considered 'gay' for a guy to feel too much. Well...so much of that kind of rejection is hard to take for a guy - irrelevant for a girl. Which is why calmness ensues when I rise to express even more, instead of repress, that sensitivity so big a part of me, and while I'm at it, so many other things in me that are satiny, not tacky; soft not aggressive; quiet & calm not invasive & disruptive - and the list goes on and on.

It's easy to work to please them because most GG women simply are..adorable. Like you, as a bonus, I have an extra insight into the details of day to day living for GG women. All the more equiped then to appreciaate the why's and wherefores of what might bother, delight or offend. I have so much more to offer than say, some handsome guy who by his great looks can be selfish and uncaring yet always manages to have served him a late night snack. While I suffer on and on until, as you so well describe, both I and my inside 'guy' are both awake, aware enthralled - each by the other. And in some mysterious hard to describe way...they play, tease, touch and squeeze - side by side divided now, then in surrender, comingled... With cautious discretion I won't describe what follows. Suffice it to say the result is okay - much better than having it my way or his! Umm.. not just 'ok' - much more intense! It's Grrreat!

"A girls night in"... that's just so well put Danielle! I love your way with words, girlfriend! Lately it occured to me, I couldn't help but notice... as difficult as it is to meet and 'keep' the right GG girl for me, is as easy as can be to meet a suitable M2F lezzie friend like me. We are an honest, genuine, gentle lot. Sensitive & smart, sultry & alluring. Here there everywhere, the lovely lezzies among us (such as me, teehee :o), there is an ever present playfulness & willingness to please. So here I go, my proclamation: if GG's reject me very much more, there are M2F lezships to explore. At 1st I had to pause & think what now seems just so natural to me: that girls are girls whatever the form; however packaged their precious pink ;)

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Originally Posted by Danielle.N

No one has ever said anything to me about it, but i figured out on my own that was not like the 'normal' guys during the short time I played football in high school. In hearing the usual locker room chatter, I was appalled at the offensive and demeaning way some guys would talk about their girlfriends or attractive girls in the school and what they'd like to 'do to them.' I've spent a lot of time wondering why jerks like this have girls throwing themselves at them, and a nice guy like me never had a snowball's chance in hell of getting a date.

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I know exactly how you feel, Danielle. It's really hard to figure out why so many women always seem to go for the "bad boys", knowing full well that they will only be hurt and mistreated by them in the long run. And yet, even when one such relationship ends because of these issues, they invariably go back for more and take up with another, equally abusive jerk.

And yes, back in high school, I was always the guy that the girls turned to in order to complain endlessly about their callous and obnoxious boyfriends. Somehow, they never seemed to twig into all of my positive traits when it came to relationships, and I was rarely seen as "boyfriend" material, and instead - only the "big brother" type. But what comes 'round, goes 'round, and many of these women are now divorced, bitter, disillusioned with men, and in many ways older and wiser. And as I have discovered, also far more open to accepting a crossdresser as a friend (or more), since they have finally come to realize that with us, they can have the best of both worlds - a guy whose brain doesn't reside solely in his penis, as well as a "girlfriend" - all rolled up into one.

Of course, the flip side to all those women falling for the macho biker-type dudes is the young teen-aged girls practically throwing themselves at the feet at the likes of cuddly, wimpy, effeminate, and non-threatening performers and celebrities like Justin Bieber and the Jonas Brothers. What's up with that?

There is so much going on in this thread! Firstly, trappedNhere, your situation sounds very complicated. It's great that you were open about your orientation early on. In my opinion, the kind of person we are attracted to is deeply linked to brain chemistry, which is mostly genetic, but also influenced by early life experiences. You are attracted to males. She is attracted to females and thinks male bodies are "icky", but is phobic about touching a woman, even herself. Do I have that right? It sounds to me like she might have some sexual dysfunction going on. If she can't love her own body, she will have trouble being loving and intimate with anyone, especially you. We all change over time, but even if she has changed with age and now finds herself desiring a more manly-man, there is no excuse for treating you unkindly. I truly wish you the best.

Annaliese, I loved your last post. You are pointing at some very important issues that many of us struggle with. For many of us, the awakening of the inner feminine moves us more and more out of the conventional male mindset, and thus further and further away from the conventional male-female dynamic. We are drawn to the feminine out of adoration and respect. It is essentially a spiritual experience. Most GGs simply don't understand that. They are confused by our nurturing and our kindred spirit, unless they are one of the truly rare women who can step out of the norm and glimpse a more complete union.

To progress on our path, we have to let go of the expectation that we will be understood or fully appreciated by GGs. If we are, we are blessed. But in truth, we have only ourselves and our CD/TG sisters to help us in the integration of the inner masculine and feminine. As my sexuality has become more and more feminized, I find that my inner woman is my favorite sex partner. She teaches me how to make love like a woman. She joins with me in lesbian ecstasy. In some ways, another CD/TG can go there more easily than a GG.

I'm fortunate to be partnered with a GG lesbian. She accepts me and lets me be her girlfriend. she allows me to enter her special lesbian ecstasy. But it can only go so far because I'm anatomically challenged :) Ultimately, I have to rely on myself for fulfillment. A trans-lez sister who can go there too is also a joy!

Kay

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" Wine is sunlight, held together by water " -*Galileo Gallilei

I've never claimed to understand how my own mind works, let alone the minds of others. All I can do is relate my own experience and see if it fits. After my wife had come to accept my crossdressing she explained to me that it was my softer, supportive, nurturing behaviors and attitudes that she really liked. It was that side of my personality that her friends wished their husbands (and ex's) had a little more of. She told me that if it took crossdressing to bring that out and into our relationship, it was all worth it.

I agree with what Leslie has to say about how so many of these women have changed their expectations after years of dealing with the stereotypical macho type who can't find the ability to use those softer traits. I still have plenty of traditional masculine behaviors that make me difficult, but it seems apparent to others that I am just a little different. I'm trying to cultivate that where I can.

I guess I should elaborate on my prior post. I've been wrestling with this issue quite a bit lately (ever since I stumbled upon Dr. Glover's book). The post in this thread are a good description of the type of guy he describes in his book. When I listened to it, it really struck home. Thing is, my desire to crossdress goes back to my earliest memories. So, it's hard for me to say if my crossdressing is a symptom of me being a "nice guy" or being a "nice guy" is a symptom of my crossdressing. My solution is to give Dr. Glover's program an honest try while also giving Josie as much freedom as my schedule allows.

Dr. Glover's program tries to teach us to get the past the "typical male" stereotype and see what is good about being male. Still, if I lose Josie as a result of all of this, I will miss her, and I will regret that it took so long for me to accept that part of me and that I always kept her on such a short leash.

I'm in an interesting place right now, and this thread has a lot to do with it.

Wow Danielle:

Just don't know how you do it girl. So do you listen or just hang up? Reason I ask is while she was engaging in her extra relationship (with who I thought was just a friend) she would come home or call me crying about something he said dir did. (Always edited of course, lest ahe be found out). I, as is my nature, would comfort, hold, listen, bitch with and give advice. What a fool I was.

She really had it good. Her manly man at the office/car/bed/ everywhere else, and muah at home.

Wonder if any F2M brothers have similar delimmas. Wonder if that may be the relationship answer for both.

Another question? If I'm gay and under go SRS, and still like/want men. Am I gay or strait? God why do we even put lables on ourselves?

sounds like the only support you get at home is from your pantyhose, lol.

It is a painful life trying to live with a partner who views a relationship as a competition rather than mutual support. There are no winners in that scenario.

I am curious to know if your SO has the same type of personality as your father or mother? (emotionally distant or “vacant”?)

Suggestions for a name? Well, how about Dora Matt? Or maybe Ima Dormat? Cya Later? Ms Herabal Life. Stephonme Sommore. Tara Bullife? Liv Inalie?
lol, jus' kidd'n ya...

I had a similar ex-wife. There are probably dysfunctional histories in both of your pasts, which caused you to attach to each other when you crossed paths in life. Both trying to take "another shot" at something left unresolved in a parental relationship. (like an emotional absent parent). You try and earn that "love" you never got as a kid, by picking a similar cold personality in an SO.
It is hard to recognize the unconscious attempt at correcting past wounds through relationships with toxic partners.

It took a divorce from a golddigger ex, $100K + losing everything for me to learn that lesson. It was the best investment I ever made...now....not at the time...lol.

Not saying it is your case...hope not...but one option as an explanation to understand it.

It is never too late to choose freedom and happiness...it is out there someplace...

good luck!

OK< so your wife is ok with you underdressing and admitting to being gay ( or do you really mean bi?) She obviously knows everything about you and still she chose to marry you. I can't see that its a big step for you to express your desire to dress openly.

The larger question is what is at the basis of your arguements. Sometimes people say hurtful things as a tactic in arguements. Its not a good way to resolve issues, since it leave lots of residual hurt. So, try to learn to discuss issues, rather than argue...and if she has some underlying problem with your sexuality, your cross dressing or general femininity...learn to discuss this in a non confrontational way. Your lives will be better and you'll be able to stop worrying about being manly!