Printable View
The reason this causes so much debate is because the reason people dress is different. And as a consequence they have their own views as to what is right or wrong. People who crossdress are NOT a community. They are a huge diverse group who use women's clothing to express different ideas for their own reasons.. You are all showing your diversity.
I voted I don't see anything wrong with it but I would never do it. I dont think I should condem someone for what they wear, or what they look like. I have seen a lot of strangely dressed people, and I suppose anyone who sees one of us would think the same. If a guy wants to wear a skirt or a dress, who happens to be unshaven then so be it. However I would'nt go out that way. I prefer to look and feel as feminine and sexy as I can, although I am sure no one would mistake me for a woman, but at least I try.
When I dress I want to feel [size=2]feminine[/size], look [size=2]feminine[/size] and be treated like a lady....but thats just me, Someone who goes out in a dress with a beard is no less valid than me they are just doing it for different reasons. It makes me sad that there are people here so willing to condem someone for doing what obviously feels right for them. after all who are we to judge anyone.
I read one reply on the IG website said:
I do not believe that anyone that has any serious desires to go out enfemme with male facial hair has any consideration for the transgendered community. Such a person would only reinforce the negative images that mainstream america gets bombarded with on show like Jerry Springer
There is some truth to that. Sure, it's nice to think a person should be accepted for who they are and not how they dress but we all know the world doesn't work this way at this point in time. Maybe someday though....
If something hurts the eventual acceptance of crossdressing, I'm against it. If someone shows up in public at a CD/TG/TS event, especially when media might be there, sporting a beard or other obvious facial hair, they won't get my support. I see that as potentially harmful to advancing the understanding of gender diversification. If you are that attached to your facial hair, find a less public place or stay home.
Im hardly "intolerant' only stating a FACT of life. My point was that there IS nothing really wrong with cross gender behaviour or even acting like a fool in public----but, society and mainstream culture being what it is, one should EXPECT to be laughed at or scorned when one DOES things publicly that are KNOWN to evoke such reactions from "main streamers".Quote:
Originally Posted by Amelie
One needs to accept that FACT and live with it, if one insists on those forms of public behaviour or appearence. Either you put up with the negative fallout OR you refrain from those behaviours (and dont get laughed at) They are both half of the same inseperable equasion. THAT is REALITY, no matter how much we wish it wasnt so. For all of us who are a bit 'strange' and want to show it--"if you cant take the heat, stay out of the kitchen". Being CD, TS, etc. shouldnt make us stupid. Some of us CAN and do take the heat--it may be worth it to do what we wanna do. :D
Like Im saying, you dont jump into a Lion cage with a steak tied around your neck--and complain about being eaten. Either you use some personal discresion and dont wear the steak at all when you jump into the cage, or wear the steak, knowing what to expect.--- :D
How will that someday ever occur if their not allowed out?Quote:
Originally Posted by Julie Marie
There is a TV in England that runs around in little girl dress, who has met the Queen. Her being out there brings attention to TVs and respect along with it. And yes there is ridicule, even from fellow TGs, but many that will ridicule will ridicule no matter what she is wearing. Getting some respect for TVs, as she does, is the goal. One she has achieved countless times.
England is far more advanced, politically than most places in the US with regard to the gender variant.
If the gender queer don't have the right to the opportunity to find that respect, then neither should any other TG have that opportunity.
And I do not believe that the gender queer reinforce the negatives perceived of TVs by society. Their dress is much more acceptable than fully, if not outrageously, made-up TVs out in skirts so short their ass is hanging out.
I look to a persons actions before passing judgement, before I look at how they look.
Wonderful post. Julie did raise a good question, didn't she. tari
Actually I'd disagree. I'm not sure I'd consider it cross-dressing as much as conscious gender bending. But here in the SF Bay Area -- which is admittedly political -- there are "genderqueers" who are interested in arguing that gender is a social construct. Some go as far as denying gender exists, even to the extent of using invented gender-neutral pronouns (such as "sie" and "hir").Quote:
Originally Posted by Julie Marie
Not my cup of tea personally (strikes me as a bit twee). But while admittedly most people will think it's weird, it may prompt them to be a bit more open-minded. Plus, we look comparatively "normal" next to them. :D
Thank you, Donna, Darla - it pleases me, the reassurance that some of us (I don't mean just CDs, either) recognize what's always been essential in the fight for equal rights. It wasn't the Uncle Toms and people emulating Stepin Fetchit or Amos 'n Andy who got civil rights for blacks... There's a vague parallel w/ the well known First Amendment argument, about how it's offensive speech that we must protect in order to be free, because inoffensive speech doesn't need protection. Likewise, the people who blatantly, brazenly violate repressive gender 'norms' are our front line; those of us who are already 'respectable' have little to fight for.
What I'm saying is, winning acceptance for the most extreme of us wins acceptance for all of us - 'Uncle Tom'ming it reaps rewards only for those who promise to 'stay in line.'
As someone who has decided that androgyny is best (for myself, of course), I still couldn't do something like wear makeup with a moustache - but I support those who do, because if they buy themselves 25% acceptance, those of us are one fourth as radical in appearance become fully acceptable.
I know some of you see exactly where I'm comin' from on this...! :thumbsup:
I voted "I'd never do it, but it doesn't bother me".
To be honest, to me, being "en femme" means presenting yourself (as best you can) as a female. If you're going to sport a beard then you're not doing that.
Having said that, cding can be all things to all people, and I'm certainly not going to say to someone that they can't do it. Each to their own. But if you do keep the facial hair when en femme in public, just be prepared for the consequences.
If ever I saw a guy with a beard in public, when completely en femme, I would think he was letting the side down a little, in as far as presenting a positive image of crossdressers in society.
Amelie,Quote:
Originally Posted by Amelie
Although I personally wouldn't mix femme clothes with facial hair (though having easily concealable white, slow growth), your post is a reminder that right of individual expression supercedes perceived social conventions. Very righteous view.
Recently, I was listening to three (young male) Libertarian broadcasters arguing about allowing a (quite passable) TS to be included in an internet photo roster of female supporters...and in the debate, one of the Libertarians repeatedly described the TS as a freak, giving various flimsy status-quo arguments against her inclusion. That broadcaster is usually pro-individual rights (often railing against an increasingly repressive environment)... Unfortunately, not much difference between her and the proverbial bearded circus lady (or even a clown) in that broadcast incident... Just a reminder that there is no safe zone perceptually...and "open minds" are always relative.
J.
Negative image and hurting crossdressing acceptance have been mentioned as reasons to go against the bearded CD.
Now, this is my opinion on what really hurts the acceptance and gives a negative image of CDs.
Now, this is my opinion:
There are others Cds who are a lot more damaging to CDs than the guy with the beard. There are CDs(a lot of them on this forum), straight Cds who, when they go out, frequent gay establishments yes even the male lesbian kind. To me this is a lot more damaging for acceptance than the guy with a beard. When people(society) see CDs coming out of a known gay club, people(society) can't tell the difference between gay, drag queen types and straight CDs, they only see men in dresses leaving the club. So these straight Cds are reinforcing the stereotype that all CDs are gay, it is these CDs who are giving more of a negative image that the guy in the beard.
I read many posts on this forum and one of the main themes is how terrible it is that society considers all CDs gay. Read the threads this is mentioned quite often on this forum. Yet there are many Cds here who reinforce this stereotype, it is they who are doing more damage, it is they who are keeping most of you in the closet. These stright CDs are strong enough to go out, then they should be strong enough to go to straight or mainly straight clubs.
What do we say to these straight CDs who frequent gay clubs? Do we laugh at them? Do we insult them? As one member said up above do they deserve what they get because of what they are doing?
To me, these straight CDs are part of the tg umbrella, they should go where ever they want without being made fun of. In fact to me. I like straight CDs that go to gay clubs, they are making my life all that much better. As long as society thinks all Cds are gay, then I don't have to explain myself to others it it is already being done by these straight CDs.
Also many here on the forum totally agree with the concept that straight CDs reinforcing this image are wrong in doing so. Read all the threads that gay is mentioned, most members are constintly crying how bad it is to be percieved as gay. So, these CDs that don't like being called gay, should focus their anger, and their words to the Cds here at the form who frequent gay clubs, for keeping the stereotype alive.
I feel that the straight CDs on this forum,,including the moderators, that frequent gay clubs are doing much more damage and giving a greater negative image than the guy with the beard, who is rarely ever seen.
Most here on the forum are at a much higher educated level than what I am, surely you must be able to see right from wrong. if you don't, then have fun in the closet, because these straight Cds are going to keep you there that much longer.
My opinion
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marina Twelve
Marina,,no one and I mean no one deserves to be made fun of while out in public. How far can society go in insulting proplr who are different? Can we make fun of a handicapped person? Why not? they are different, they should be fair game. OK, one might say the handicap person can not help the way they are, they were born that way. Yet read the threads on this forum, you'll find a lot of CDs here also feel that they were born this way. They feel that they have no control on CDing, it is something inside them that they can't stop, no matter how many times they purge.
So why should a CD, any Cd be made fun of, or insulted? They should be treated fairly as any other citizen. While we can't stop idiots from laughing, but any harm done to these Cds should be met with the law, and the perpertrators arrested.
As far as saying if one can't take the heat then stay out of the kitchen is totally wrong. If you read the posts on this forum, most CDs can't stop themselves from dressing. For most, this is not a hobby, it is a life-style that they need to fullfill. CDing is not something that can easily be given up, even if there are idiots in the world.
As far as saying one should be laughed at if they are different from the mainstream, is totally ridiculous. Let's say straight conservitive type people come into my neighborhood, dressed in their conservitive clothes. Can they be laughed at because they look totally different from all the other people in the neighborhood? Maybe in your area, people are laughed at bacause they are different, but not in my area. This just makes me so glad that I don't live in the stupid areas of this country.
Wow Julie.. I'm shocked by this statement. Is there now a right way to crossdress?? I mean is there now a 'circle' you must fit into before being accepted for who you really are? This is so wrong on so many scales. I agree with Amelie, you are all under one umbrella and it doesn't matter whether you totally emulate a GG or you just like wearing the clothes. It is wrong to say that a CD who still has facial hair should stay out of the lime light because it is going to be harmful to the advancement of CDs being accepted... that in itself is like I said earlier... double standards. If you can't accept a person in a dress and doning a beard, then you are no better than those that will not accept CD's in general.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julie Marie
If I wanted to keep my legs hairy all the time, should society then not accept me as a GG and should I stay somewhere less public?? Is it not my right as a person to keep something that naturally grows just because a certain part of the public wouldn't like it??
On that I have to disagree Amelie. Being gay is something that has already made a foothold toward acceptance in this world. Bearded women have not. You know I understand your views on those who act as though gay people give us a bad name. I think they're wrong. But this bearded lady thing is like asking society to accept 'seriously' some flasher who wears panties under his trench coat. Oh they'll accept him alright. But not the way we want to be. What we ourselves think or feel seems irrelevant when it comes to the rest of the world. It is their views we are trying to change or at least 'open'. We have to start somewhere. If we ask for all or nothing that will set us back even futher. And yes I do see things as you see them as well, whether or not we agree. So this is also just 'my' opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amelie
And sure we, including us moderators may be in disagreement sometimes, but that's how the world is too. We're not much different really. If we all were the same there would be no labels, no need for acceptance etc etc... But here we are. Diversly discussing things that we may or may not be able to do elsewhere
Good Post, Dear Amelie. Basicly I do agree with you, it's not the best "advertising" for CD's to be seen in Gay Clubs.
On the other hand you must consider this: Society is not accepting CD at this time so there is realy not many other places were one can go and doesn't been looked on.
To be honest with you when I will be ready one day to go out - well a safe place would be a gay club to start with, what others think about it?
For the Vote of facial hair my answer would be then, I would never be in CD mode without the full body shaved, which I do now, even in drab.
But I do accept others right of self expression, if they feel happy to go out fem. dressed with hair on face - well who am I to tell them what to do.
Thanks for a very interesting post,
Norbie
Amelie, I won't have time until later today to address most of your points - much of which I agree with in principle, mind, but I do want to address one of them here and now, because it relies on a totally faulty premise.
Leaving aside the rest for now, your argument is not valid, because one of your fundamental premises you base it on is invalid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amelie
The fatal flaw consists of how you have defined 'people.' Twice, (and therefore we must assume it's not a typo or other error) you equate 'people' with 'society.' False. Not the same thing at all. What you are ignoring is number.
By way of an illustrative counterexample, let me ask this: you've seen a lot of gay bars; most of us have, right?
So tell me, do the local TV stations have 24-hour cameras set up across the street, televising the comings and goings to hundreds of thousands or millions of people, i.e. 'society'? Are there bleachers set up in front of any gay bars you're aware of, filled with people sitting, watching who goes in and out? Of course not. Those ideas, of course, are ludicrous.
But they illustrate the gaping hole in your argument. Almost no one at all sees anyone at all enter or leave a gay bar! And, of the tiny, utterly insignificant number of people (who are in relation to 'society' what a grain of sand is in relation to Waikiki Beach...) who do happen to see a CD coming or going from such a place - why, most of them are gay!
So, the net content of your argument is this: A teeny-tiny handful of (usually gay) people who happen to be in eyeshot, at that exact, uncommon moment that a CD happens to be entering or leaving a gay bar - what you've said is that those couple of people somehow determine the attitude of all of Western society toward CDs!
As we logicians say, I don't think so... :eek: :p
Well, I read a few posts, and pondered the question, then voted. It seems to me that if someone wants to get dressed up and go out, they should go the "whole 9 yards", and do it right. However, that is me. I don't want people deciding what I can/can't do, so I don't think that it is up to me to do that to other people. Fair is fair, treat others the way that you want to be treated.
Hugs
Ariel
Well I woudnt go out en-femme with a beard, but if anyone wants to it really doesnt bother me. Somthing about glass houses and stones comes to mind :)
First of all. how do you know for sure that it is only a few people who see Cds coming out of a gay bar or club? Second there are many gay clubs and bars so the numbers could be added together. Third, there is word of mouth, when one person sees a CD coming out of a gay club they in turn tell others.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lauren_T
Then there are gay people themselves, they see these Cds in the gay clubs they in turn tell others that Cds frequent their clubs they might even tell straight people this, then others can assume that CDs are gay.
I can tell that you have never been to a big city. A lot of gay clubs are in very busy tourist areas. You will even see CDs hanging outside of these clubs, talking. Many people can see this and then when word of mouth goes around, many more will know.
Look at the Pride day parade, there were many straight Cds at these events, read back on some threads here and you will see some members here at these events. And at these events are cameras.
My point is, if straight CDs don't want to be percieved as gay, why ruin this by going to a gay club. Go to a straight club. Straight CDs will do more good for their cause if they go to straight clubs. So, stop being cowards and go to a straight club or event and clean up your image to what standard you want this to be.
Quit hiding in gay clubs, this is all that you are doing, that is if you do go out.
Also my other point was if a CD can condem another CD for their actions, then those condeming CDs can be condemed for their actions. Like someone said above about throwing stones in a glass house.
Stubble because you slept over at someones place and really don't have any drab to wear seems OK.
If you're a "bearded crossdresser" I guess that's OK, but I would think it means you like the clothes more, or see no distincition between male and female clothing that makes sense so you just wear what is comfortable and looks nice without wanting to pretend to be female.
I knew a "bearded crossdresser" once (her term for herself, not mine). She would not shave because her wife, "would not let her". It seemed an odd thing at the time because she would go out in public like that, but it did not bug me, even if I was in drab and with her. I didn't buy the, "wife would not let her," story, but figured we all go through some confusion of some form. I cannot imagine what is like to have a beard for years and then shave it.
I've never wanted a beard. Growing facial hair in my teens saddened me greatly, and I shaved often. Even body hair bugged me, I just never wanted it. I used to get teased for having very little leg hair in my early teens compared to other boys, but I was happy about it, and that saddened me when it grew too. Even as a guy now I'm not that hirsuite, but I'm glad about that now, even though in comparison to a GG there is a lot more.
If a crossdresser is supposed to be a part-time female, then I guess facial hair doesn't really go with that, but considering who I am and that I've accepted myself, this sort of diversity does not bug me in the slightest. I just would never do it.
Go to a straight club and get your head kicked in - yeah good idea!Quote:
Originally Posted by Amelie
I agree with a lot you've said on this thread Amelie, but unless a CD is extremely passable and feminine then here in the UK the CD out to prove your point would more than likely end up in casualty.
I am TS, and should I ever get round to transitioning there will be times I'll have to sport facial hair pending electrolysis/laser, but then this thread asked about CDs not TSs.
It would never work for me, but we're not all the same. I think it's interesting that so far no bearded TVs have posted on this thread. There is at least one bearded tranny over at Rose's, and judging by her pictures she dresses well and could be very convincing if she chose to shave. She just doesn't seem to feel the need.
When I'm enfemme, I don't want to have any trace of facial hair on me. I don't care if somebody wants to do it differently but when I'm fully enfemme, especially in public, I want to be able to "pass" as much as possible. I don't really care for my facial hair much anyway and prefer to be clean-shaven all the time. In fact, if I could permanently remove it without going through a painful and/or expensive process I probably would.