We are not crossdressers.....and we get fed up of being told we are

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Originally Posted by Mary Morgan

Sandra is right on the mark from my point of view. I wear womens clothing, but I also wear makeup, breast forms, and other foundation enhancements because I want to appear to be a woman. I do not want to appear to be a man in clothing normally worn by women. This whole issue of being defined as a crossdresser confuses the issue. Crossdressing is what I do because I want to be seen as a woman. It is not about the clothes.

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Hi Mary, I'm not picking on you, I just want to use your sentence.
If what you state is correct (and applies to all Cds here) then we would all be dressing in jeans, flip-flops and t-shirts, no make-up, hair helter-skelter, and not in dresses, heels, wigs and make-up, because 95% of the women I see where I live don't wear anything resembling what a lot of cds wear, tobe seen as women. It IS about the clothes, but clothing worn by a very stylized male image of what women used to wear or wear in much different circumstances than the day-to-day stuff. That would be "being seen as a woman". Dressing as ordinary women, we would all be wearing a lot of "male-looking clothes, and therefore there wouldn't be much in the way of "crossdressing". . Emulating a woman is something else, something that any male over 6 or so is going to have difficulty doing simply because we a socialized so differently that it would be nearly impossible to do. I don't think any amount of hormones or surgery is going to have any material effect in the "head department".
Thanks for letting use your words to make a point.

I can't muster any sympathy.

If it was acceptable for me to simply wear whatever women's-style clothes I wanted, I might never have attempted to go the whole nine-yards dressing enfemme. The fact is, I grew up with the idea ingrained in my mind that the *only* way I could ever wear women's clothes in public is if I would not be perceived as a man. Passing was/is the only means by which it seemed I could ever be comfortable dressed in public.

For women it is the complete opposite. I'm not even talking about FtM's. Regular women can wear *any* item of men's clothing *anywhere*, and not raise a single eyebrow. I think FtM's have it a lot easier for that reason. They can wear whatever they want. They can even present completely as a man, and AFAIK be completely secure that they won't be hassled or looked down on. I say that based on my observations here in Podunk Indiana. I see women daily presenting almost entirely if not completely as a male. I'm not sure they even officially consider themselves transgendered or not, but the resulting appearance wouldn't be any different if they did.

One example. I work with a woman who wears guy jeans, a guy polo shirt, and hiking boots every day. She has a men's haircut and unisex wire framed glasses. She wears no makeup and no jewelry, not even earrings. While it's fairly obvious that she is a woman due to her slight frame, she displays no hint of femininity whatsoever, either in her appearance or actions.

I as a man could never do the same thing. That is, show up to work in women's clothes and shoes, but otherwise male in appearance. I'm not even talking a short skirt and high heels; anything remotely feminine would be rejected.

While I get the OP's point in general, I say if you wear something that came out of a men's department, you are indeed crossdressing. You just don't think of it that way because there is no stigma attached to it.

It could be said that if you are buying and dressing in jeans, flip flops and T shirts that were made for women and sold in ladies stores then you are cross dressing. Women who buy and wear the same items from the same stores are just buying clothes.

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Originally Posted by Mary Morgan

Sandra is right on the mark from my point of view. I wear womens clothing, but I also wear makeup, breast forms, and other foundation enhancements because I want to appear to be a woman. I do not want to appear to be a man in clothing normally worn by women. This whole issue of being defined as a crossdresser confuses the issue. Crossdressing is what I do because I want to be seen as a woman. It is not about the clothes.

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I'm a crossdresser because I want to be seen as a woman, NOT as a man in woman's clothing.
And, it IS all about the clothes!:D

Wow, interesting Sandra. My ex could wear pants and jeans well and she liked them because her work required modesty and she was relaxed whilst wearing them. I liked them because they hung beautifully on her and I never thought of her as a male. I also like a nice pair of loose wide legged pants as well as jeans because they allow me to feel free or hugged.
I just think that the public accepts a female dressed in pants more than a man dressed in a skirt but I must own up, I forgot about FtM and their problems. Honestly, I never thought about FtM being still treated as female, not male. Crikey, I feel a bit subdued now. Apologies to anyone If any of my replies appear or have been taken as condescending to FtM. Sincere apolgies.

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Originally Posted by Pythos

I will say again, I don't think most men that cross dress to pass as women would really have ventured into it if it was not for the fact we males ARE limited in what we can wear.

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I agree very much. Male crossdressers are being singled out because societal prejudice forces many to emulate women because we dont feel right being seen as a man in a dress. Remove the prejudice and stigma and we would end up with new gnerations of men naturally integrating feminine clothing into their presentation just as women do with men's fashion.

Either all men and women are crossdressing and none of us are. I dont like how people want to distance women's use of male clothing and claim it is something completely different. It isn't, it the just the prejudice that creates the gap and resulting differing behaviors.

I also like the comment about venting. Why is it that men cannot vent their fustrations and not be called out on it? It is another double standard.

Now this is were unlike a lot i believe there is a difference in cross dressing and transgender and it is not necessarily right to put it all under the transgender category , technically speaking anyone who wears clothes designed for the opposite gender is cross dressing although these lines are becoming more blurred with modern fashions .
If you wish to dress to present as, or pass as, or want to, or you do feel like the opposite gender then you are into transgender, it is not so much as what you are wearing but why you are wearing it that counts in my opinion because you can now do away with the technicality of cross dressing if you are just enjoying wearing the clothes that was originally designed for the opposite gender as your intention is not to cross genders.

It is a good distinction Joanne - crossdressers and gendercrossers. They are not the same at all.

One more comment about clothes themselves. All clothes send out messages and statements about who you are, your status and which group you want to be associated with. Part of the message is gender. Saying that selling male clothing in a women's store changes the gender message is wrong, the assocaition remains intact. That is the whole point, it is a statement by women that they are on a par with men. If a department store began selling dresses in the men's section, even if the dresses were alterered to fit men's bodies, nobody would claim the female gender message inherent in the dress suddenly vanishes into thin air.

I get that women dont think about this when buying a pair of slacks, they dont have to since society allows women to express a degree of masculinity. It is a right of expression that women take for granted which does not exist for men so we do have to think about it.

So for those who are not gendercrossers, the difference in choosing to wear clothes of the opposite gender is in the inequality of social acceptance.

Sandra, for me the big gripe is the FREEDOM women have when it comes to dressing. They can wear what they want and present themselves as they please.

While I like playing the female role once in a while, truthfully, I just like the clothing. It's comfortable. But heading out the front door as a male in a skirt attracts a million times more attention than me getting fully dressed up to look female.

Well I got your attention, I've never known a thread of mine reach two pages :D

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Originally Posted by Sandra

Most of you on here

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Ok read the above comment I made in the opening post,see I didn't say all of you but most. I know that there is plenty of members here who just like to wear the clothing and have no intentions of trying to emulate a woman.

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Originally Posted by Jannine

Hey Sandra,
Just for my benefit, would you have any stats on FtMs? Like what is the incidence in the US. for example? I would think it not as prevalent as MtFs, especially so here in Australia. The number of boys that desire to be girls is overwhelming. Or is it ??
Jannine. x

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Jannine I don't have any stats for you....but one thing this forum used to have a lot of FtMs who posted regular, what happened to them...most stopped posting because they were called girls and not treated in the gender they portrayed and was not taken seriously.

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Originally Posted by Tricia Lee

I think FtM's have it a lot easier for that reason. They can wear whatever they want. They can even present completely as a man, and AFAIK be completely secure that they won't be hassled or looked down on.

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Really you should talk to some of the FtMs on this forum and see what they have to say about that.


Some (not all) of the members on this forum still have the impression that just because a woman wears trousers/pants and I mean those that are made for the female form are still crossdressing, when we're not and this seems a hard point to get across. I guess it's just something that some of us will just differ on no matter what is said.

Thanks for all your replies :)

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Originally Posted by Sandra

Some (not all) of the members on this forum still have the impression that just because a woman wears trousers/pants and I mean those that are made for the female form are still crossdressing, when we're not and this seems a hard point to get across. I guess it's just something that some of us will just differ on no matter what is said.

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Sandra, while I don't doubt what you are saying, I cannot fathom why anyone would think that a woman wearing pants is in any way, shape or form crossdressing. My wife wears pants often and there'd be heck to pay if anyone accused her of crossdressing. That would be ridiculous. Some things in life are givens. This is one of them.

And as has been said before, technically wearng clothing intended for the opposite gender is crossdressing. Throwing out underlying motivations (how one identifies, degree of feminine or masculine emulation, etc) and no matter how you slice it, a man in a dress is crossdressing. This is simply how society sees things, it is what it is. While styles in certain circles are starting to blur the line between masculine & feminine, until the day comes when a guy can pick up a dress in the same department as he could buy his suit, crossdressing will be an appropriate description.

Take it a step further. There are differences between genders that not only are embraced by society but are hard-wired in terms of what most men and women find attractive in the opposite gender. Just because if it were up to me that I'd be on the other team doesn't mean I reject the differences in the sexes. This is why I'd be shocked if the day comes any time soon where fashion choices broaden signficantly into what is typically reserved for women.

I said it already, but I will say it again! If you wear any clothing made for the opposite sex, you are crossdressing. That is true whether you are male or female! And the reason for wearing the clothes makes no difference! Yes, some women do wear mens pants and shirts. They are crossdressing, but they get away with it because the public is used to that. Women started wearing pants more during World War II because they were working at jobs that pretty much required it. The public is not used to seeing men wearing skirts or dresses, so they don't accept that from men!

Well I have to disagree with you Sandra. I agree if you wear a pair of pants from the womens section, that is sill to call it crossdressing. But if you wear your boy friends shirt, or pants, then you are cross dressing, not that you are a cross dresser, but you are cross dressing. The words cross dresser has nothing in it's name that speaks of intent, only the action of wearing a garment of the opposite sex.
Tina B.

Right on Sandra. I agree with you 100%. When a person wears the clothing that is gender specific for the other gender then they are crossrdressing. Therfore when I wear womens jeans cut for women I am crossdressing. Unfortunately In my mind, and through out my life I have felt that I should have been born a female and as much as I tried to be a man and bury it it always comes back. Thus said, I don't think that If I had been able to wear anything for example dresses or other female clothes without repriasal from those that know me and tohse that don't know me it still would have not made a difference in my thinking that I should have or wish I was born a female. Clothes don't make the person but without the clothes i feel lost.

As I read many of these responses, I am made keenly aware of the injustices we have inflicted upon each other, intended or not. Expressions such as " not allowed to wear pants", and "fighting for the right to ..." As a society we have spent so much time judging and being judged, limited and constrained and to what end? The world didn't end when women started dressing the way they wanted to, and they shouldn't have had to fight to do so. How anyone dresses, or more accurately as in my case, how anyone presents themselves, is a personal choice that does no harm to anyone. We are a diverse lot because we are by nature. It is hard for me to understand why anyone would want to constrain anyone else unless some harm is being done. So what is the harm?

^ I second that!!^

Very well stated. But it is a two way street. GGs have got to stop judging men as less than men if they are not wearing slacks, tuxs, or three piece suits (once again not all do that)

Also, here is another question.

Why are you reacting so badly to the term crossdressing? What is so bad about that term? Hmmmm?

Me thinks there is an underlying tone here that may be that there is indeed something wrong with crossdressing.

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Originally Posted by Pythos

^ I second that!!^

Very well stated. But it is a two way street. GGs have got to stop judging men as less than men if they are not wearing slacks, tuxs, or three piece suits (once again not all do that)

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No, they don't, Pythos! Women, and ALL of us for that matter, like to see folks we find ATTRACTIVE! I believe that's been proven in a number of studies. So, if MOST women find men attractive in jeans, T shirt, and work boots, or a 3 piece suit, that's just the way things r.
However, that DOESN'T mean by dressing more and more fem in public, like u and others here do, that won't CHANGE. Because, it IS! Unfortunately, not fast enuff to suit many of us!

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Originally Posted by Pythos

Why are you reacting so badly to the term crossdressing? What is so bad about that term? Hmmmm?

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If that is point at me then I'll answer, I am not reacting to the term just being judged as a crossdresser when I'm not.

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Originally Posted by Pythos

Me thinks there is an underlying tone here that may be that there is indeed something wrong with crossdressing.

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Again if this is pointed at me...WTF do you mean? I have supported not only my SO but many members on this and other sites, not only through the web but in real life. Don't judge me unless you know me which you don't.

Whoa Sandra.

In the technical aspect women that wear pants ARE crossdressing. Pants from the get go were for men. They were from riding breeches, and were for horse riding, a thing that for the most part only men did.

The "WTF do you mean?" was really uncalled for. I was not tearing into you. But your post makes it seem you don't want women that wear the clothing of men to be subject to the same thing as men that wear the clothing of women. Have you not seen how girls and women can indeed wear stuff from the men's aisles, and yet not face ridicule, laughter, and a possible trip to the house of pain? Look at the ridicule that one male clothing designer who IS trying to make skirt for men (marc Jacobs), just read what some have said about him. Would a female designer making a rather masculine looking female pantsuit face the same? I think not.

As far as wearing skirts fitted for men. For most cases skirts fit men the same as women. There is no inseam as there are on pants that is one of the main factors, along with the extra area for hips when it comes to women's pants. Leather skirts are also in need of some alterations when it comes to reducing the area of hip, when worn by men.

If a man, wears a dress that HE MADE HIMSELF, which means it was meant from the get go as a male garment, oooo, great example, my Mana Cosplay. IT IS A GARMENT MEANT FOR A MALE. A) it is based off the stage costume of a male rock artist B) that male artists has NEVER identified as something other than androgynous male C) this dress was meant from the get go as a male outfit, it was never meant to be worn by a female. It is a very formal outfit. Does that mean I could wear it as a male to a formal event without drawing ridicule? Perhaps some events, but certainly not all. Would I be called a cross dresser, EVEN if the hosiery, and footwear that I wore was bought from the male section?

I think there is a high chance of that. Why? Because I am wearing a dress, hosiery, and heeled boots. Every item I would be in would be made for and marketed for men, and yet I would still be labeled crossdressing. Reason? Because I am wearing a dress, hosiery and heels. I am not even considering how my face and hair would be done, most likely natural hair with light makeup.

If a woman wore an outfit consisting of pants, dress shoes, and socks, and presented as a female, would she be called a crossdresser? Nope, in fact our secretary of state does that everyday. But she is wearing pants, dress shoes and socks (well not sure about the socks).

What we all need to get away from is the negative connotation of the word "crossdresser" and just accept it. There is nothing wrong with it, it hurts no one, and can be very stylish.

Now, now....let's all simmer down a bit here.

Viva le difference!

I am a crossdresser. There's no way around it. What I do isn't even blurring the lines between the sexes. When I dress, I'm not trying to present as a male even a little bit. I wear prosthetic breasts, and hip/butt enhancers, a wig, makeup..... My wife wore a pair of pants to work today, and she's not crossdressing. The tired argument that some of the members here keep on beating to death about women technically being crossdressers is invalid and nonsensical.
:dh:

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Originally Posted by Sara Jessica

There are differences between genders that not only are embraced by society but are hard-wired in terms of what most men and women find attractive in the opposite gender. Just because if it were up to me that I'd be on the other team doesn't mean I reject the differences in the sexes.

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Well-put, Sara. Although I love wearing pretty dresses and high heels, etc., I'm still thrilled about the differences between the genders that we grew up accepting as societal norms. In fact, I don't want there to come a time when it's considered okay for men to wear some of this stuff. I'm fine if crossdressing becomes accepted, but I don't want us to all melt into some androgynous society where the gender lines are so blurred, one can no longer tell the difference between men and women.

When I dress, I'm emulating women, not just dressing like them. And should there come a day when crossdressing is accepted at large (not holding my breath here!), I'd wear all my stuff out and about in public without fear of reprisal. But I'd still be a crossdresser.

My wife doesn't try to hide her breasts (good luck with that!), or place a prosthetic in her pants. She doesn't hide her hair, wear false moustaches, or hide her pretty fingernails. She's all woman, and never attempts to crossdress. Me? Different story.

Think about it. It's the attraction we feel towards these lovely feminine garments that brought many of us to this point. And those of us who feel that we're females on the inside still opt to wear the pretty clothes. Do you really want to live in a society where the traditional gender presentation is gone? What would be the fun in that? As a man, I don't really want to go out somewhere wearing a frilly blouse or a skirt. I greatly enjoy wearing such things, but I want to keep these things reserved for women. If I feel like wearing them (which I do!), I'll pop in the breasts, break out the wig, and do the whole female emulation thing. I like those things just as much anyway. Let's keep our gender differences, and retain the fun in getting all dolled up. Once it's mainstream, and everyone is wearing the same thing, I think the attraction to it will be gone.

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My wife wore a pair of pants to work today, and she's not crossdressing. The tired argument that some of the members here keep on beating to death about women technically being crossdressers is invalid and nonsensical.

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No, what is nonsensical is the idea that there is something wrong with being labled a crossdresser. That is what makes no sense.

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I greatly enjoy wearing such things, but I want to keep these things reserved for women

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I could not disagree with someone more. Great maker You sound just like those women out there that say "leave the dresses to the women" or "leave the skinny jeans to the girls". Much like the men long ago said "leave the work to the men" or "leave the trouser wearing to the gentlement".

ALL of those statements are sexist at their very heart.

At one time men also dressed very very elegantly, heels, stocking, and all. But somehow those styles are now forbidden to men.

I think most here could really benefit from a little research into style history. Many here would be amazed at how far down the dull road male fashion went.

Now, looking like a woman by wearing things that change your body shape, and taking on feminine voice and mannerisms, that should be for the ladies, though if someone crosses those lines they still SHOULD not have their well being threatened.

You do know Viva La Differance was a cry by men who wanted women to remain property right? Take a look at the history of that statement. It was also one of the mottos used against women that wanted to wear pants, in France. A country that still has a law on the books forbidding women from wearing pants....that is largely ignored.

OMG...what an amazing thread! Thank you Sandra. We needed to get this out into the open, no matter how much we will assuredly not understand each other (what else is new? ROFL). So here goes:

This thread has no answer because a) no one will agree what "crossdresser" means, b) society is not commutative in dressing norms (meaning that while it is acceptable, currently, for women to wear what they will, men (usually) cannot do the same without ridicule. Grousing about it won't change that, activism will), c) for those who are truly crossing the gender barrier and present themselves as feminine because that's who they truly feel they are, the word crossdresser is somehow lacking in conveying the depth of their transition.

The overwhelming majority of us on this site are transgendered, and we occupy every part of the spectrum of transgenderism. Let's face it, that existence is a struggle, no matter what part of the spectrum you occupy. When a non-transgendered GG wears "male" clothing it has absolutely nothing to do with transgenderism. The word "crossdressing", for all it's lack of clarity, has always been associated with what we now call transgenderism. Thus, logically, when a non-transgendered GG wears "male" clothing, it's a fashion choice and that's all. So, my fellow genetic males, we can't do that. Let's get the chip off our shoulders, embrace the GGs who are helping us make the transition that we need, and move on. If we want society to change, then work to change it, and let's not harass the GGs who DID work hard to change social norms. They deserve the results that they worked very hard to obtain.

Is it going to be harder for us to effect a change? Maybe, but it won't happen by simply complaining.

Just my 2 cents.

me and Tina

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Originally Posted by Pythos

You do know Viva La Differance was a cry by men who wanted women to remain property right?

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No, that saying was conjured up by French men to let the world know why they were considered among the most amorous people in the world, and meant to convey that what men found so alluring about women was the fact that they are women, part and parcel, and that was the great delight in all of it. Do not attempt to teach me your narrow social history. I know history quite well already, as it has been one of my life's pursuits to study it. Yes, men for eons did attempt (and still do) to subjugate women. But they didn't stuff women into dresses simply because they felt that that would keep them down. Women opted to wear them because they were women. Society, until the 20th century, did not require women to wear anything else. It was only the advent of the industrial revolution, and the driving of women into the workforce (especially in America and England during WWII), that brought about the necessity of women wearing pants to begin with. Viva le Differance simply means that there are differences between men and women, and that these differences are wonderful.

And yeah, there's still a law against women wearing pants in France, but no one enforces it. Take any state in the U.S. and you'll find archaic laws on the books that no one pays any attention to. So what?

If you want to run around as a man wearing clothing that is traditionally reserved for women, more power to you. My opinions are not meant to try and take that from you. I choose not to, preferring myself to look like a woman when I wear this stuff.

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Originally Posted by Pythos

Great maker You sound just like those women out there that say "leave the dresses to the women" or "leave the skinny jeans to the girls".

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How 'bout we leave the dresses to the women and the crossdressers? And why would I want to leave the shape-changing stuff for the women? They (for the most part) already have the shape they need. I don't.

Marla -- your response is just how I feel !! I think it's all about how we "present" our self, I am a crossdresser -- want to present as female. Women can wear anything and not be labled as a crossdresser but they can emulate and present as male and the label fits. A truly feminine GG can wear anything and still present as female; we as male, on the other hand are not so well up to the task!

Clearly, there are two or more schools of thought going on here. One group wears feminine attire, and attempts to actually look like a female when doing so. The other wears feminine attire and makes no attempt to hide the fact that they are males. I'm good with both, but I opt for the former over the latter.

Like I stated before, I like the fact that there are differences between the genders. I don't much care for androgyny, and I prefer it that boys and girls look different, act differently, and usually dress differently. I know there are those here who do like androgyny, and see it as the wave of the future. I don't subscribe to that point of view, that's all.