another controversial attempt at tackling the label

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Originally Posted by Alexia Elliot

My thinking that this is more of a progression then a list of separate tendencies comes from observing others as well as me, and given time, seeing tendencies of progression. It isn't a learned progression, nor truly a progression at all but further stages of the same.
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Progression happens when slow deliberate want drives us to uncover yet another layer of our selves, the unconscious process hides our tendencies to protect our conscious ego and allows us to function well within programmed ways of the society.

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We must move in different circles, I have yet to meet a TS who did not know at a very early age that their body did not match their gender. Some of us have tried desperately for numerous years to suppress this knowledge and have therefore (wrongly) self-identified as non-TS cross-dresser, but in my experience eventually we can all identify signs from early childhood. In my own case, I fought the knowledge for roughly 47 years, but the Gender Dysphoria was present for the whole of that time.

I do not understand why someone who as a child cried themself to sleep every night wishing that she could wake up with the right body would not eventually want to "go as far" as SRS to use your term. I was loved for who I am, I just didn't know that I could talk to my parents about what was wrong at a time when virtually no-one had heard of transsexuals and anyway SRS certainly wasn't available unless you were rich.

To the best of my understanding a TS is born TS and does not progress from fetishist through cross-dresser to eventually become TS.

I am not trying to deny your experience and woul dbe interested to hear from some of the TS you have met who were not born that way, but developped from being a male cross-dresser to being a woman in a man's body.

My own experience might be covered by your statement about some people starting at stage 4, because there has never been anything remotely sexual about my Gender Dysphoria, but it has stopped me from assuming the role of a husband because I could not conceive how I, a woman, could be someone's husband with all that that entails.

Alexia

I think you have done a fair job of describing several states that many crossdressers would identify with. I also agree that there is a clear case of progression in the behavior, the more you think about it, the more you enact it, the more you become it. There is a strange amount of self prophecy about it.

I think you missed something important though. Stage 1 is the trigger point which is gender dysphoria. Whether that is gender identity in transsexuals, or gender confusion in transgenderists or, in most cases of crossdressers, feelings of inadequacy about male roles and responsibuilities. That triggers the interest in female clothes as a gateway to the need or fantasy of turning ourselves in females. Most crossdresser's triggers occur years before puberty during the tranistion from innocent young children into prototype gendered adults.

I want to highlight this point from Juno about crossdressing being described as a fetish. It is not!!! We need to stop accepting this wrong label. A fetish is when you direct your sexual attention onto an object. Crossdressers may love their clothes but the sexual drive is focussed on an image of ourselves as a woman whether in our heads or in the mirror. It is just directing our sexual drive onto an imaginary woman rather than a real one. How we relate to women will alter how that imaginary image will develop.

I ignore labels,when someone puts a labe on you,thats as bad as," bearing false witness",and "judging",one is a commandment,the other is a teaching by the son.

Don't let labels get to ya.

The problem with the word "stages" is that it implies an inevitable progress from one to the other. As NicoleScott said, one can always be a pleasure dresser and never take it further. "Type" or "Degrees" might be more accurate. (Even "degrees" might be problematic, since it assumes TV and TSism are on the same linear continuum.)

It is also important to remember, for every FT TS there are many, many (I have read anywhere from 1:100 - 1:1000) men who enjoy some form of occasional crossdressing as a fetish (and they can't all be inevitable TSs.)

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Originally Posted by Sue101

Alexia
I want to highlight this point from Juno about crossdressing being described as a fetish. It is not!!! We need to stop accepting this wrong label. A fetish is when you direct your sexual attention onto an object. Crossdressers may love their clothes but the sexual drive is focussed on an image of ourselves as a woman whether in our heads or in the mirror. It is just directing our sexual drive onto an imaginary woman rather than a real one. How we relate to women will alter how that imaginary image will develop.

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Hence I describe one set as Fetishistic crossdressing and other NON fetishistic.

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Originally posted by: Rianna Humble
We must move in different circles, I have yet to meet a TS who did not know at a very early age that their body did not match their gender. Some of us have tried desperately for numerous years to suppress this knowledge and have therefore (wrongly) self-identified as non-TS cross-dresser, but in my experience eventually we can all identify signs from early childhood. In my own case, I fought the knowledge for roughly 47 years, but the Gender Dysphoria was present for the whole of that time.

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I identyfy with what you are describing, I am a victim of Dysphoria from age of 7. I too looked at how I differed from girls and wanted this difference to go away. We do not move in different circles, yet I had to suppress this pain because of fear, lack of understanding and need to perform as society and life around me demanded. There was however a sexual tone to dressing at later stages of my puberty. I think when I started being aware of sexuality I also wanted to express it in the feminine way, but had to hide it deep in the new imaginary closet we are so familiar with. Fetish surrounded feeling of guilt, wrongness about it and remorse I felt growing up in hyper catholic society. I never lost feeling of being a woman, I always felt it, but the "dirty" feeling that surrounded what I was doing made for me to describe it as fetish, which really it wasn't but mere feeling of femininity.

Alexia

I am saying that crossdressing is never a fetish period. A person with a clothes fetish has different behavior from a crossdresser. The motivation for using clothes is not the same. A shoe fetsisher for example collects shoes, he would display them and stare at them, cuddle them, kiss them , smell them, lick them....you get the point. Also a fetisher usually requests his partner to wear the articles in question during sex. A crosdresser loves clothes as clothes, in particular the gender attribute those clothes have which he uses on himself to alter his own gender image.

Sue (#27 and #31), I agree with your disctinction between one with a fetish and a crossdresser. But I don't think they are mutually exclusive. I can remember at around age 4 or 5 being attracted to and excited by certain things (high heels, lipstick). Over the years, I began to wear high heels and put on lipstick in private when I got the chance. Yes, as you said, I was excited by looking at and touching them, and of course, when I put them on. I began to collect articles of clothing in my early teen years and use progressively more makeup. I was making up and dressing completely in my twenties, still privately. I loved making up, and loved dressing up, and did it to fully transform my appearance as often as possible. Dressing up ALMOST always included and focused on those items for which I have a fetish. I say almost because a few times I went out to pass without the dark red lipstick and very high heels I prefer, in order to be more passable and comfortable. But as I said in other threads, I prefer to dress up the way it excites me most, and that means wearing those fetish items. In addition to dark red lipstick (and nails to match) and very high heels, which have always been strong fetishes for me, other items which can by themselves excite are long fake eyelashes with heavy eye makeup and certain wig styles, to a somewhat lesser intensity. I wear other items which are made for women (pantyhose, foundation & powder, jewelry, etc), but they don't have special arousal effects and are worn to complete the feminine appearance.
Without a doubt, I have fetishes. Without a doubt, I am a crossdresser.
Certainly, there can be fetishists who don't crossdress, and crossdressers without fetishes. But one can be both.
I agree with you - there isn't a fetish stage. But sexual excitement often accompanies crossdressing during the time of life when the hormone faucet is wide open.

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Originally Posted by Rianna Humble

My other concern with this being projected as a progression from A to D is that some could use this idea to treat those at a different "stage" as some kind of second class citizen.

The fact that I am transsexual does not make me any better or any less good than any other member of crossdressers.com

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Another important point that seems to have been overlooked.

[SIZE=4]I have never been a "label" person and can't quite understand the fascination with having to tack a label on everyone, but I do enjoy reading all the replies. Heck, I might even learn something. [/SIZE]

Labels give power, they also take it away.

When someone can identify with a definition, it gives them the opportunity to take a shortcut to understanding instead of a lot of introspection. A label can give a sense of identity and it can give a sense of community.

A label can be used to hurt or stereotype. It can be use to generalize. A person who agrees with 80% of a label may find themselves changing to reflect the other 20%.

I thought I could accept being called bi-gender. It's close, but not quite true.

I looked at the Benjamin Scale. Wow, do I not fit there.
I'm 0 on the Kinsey.
I generally feel Masculine, but sometimes there is a 180 switch (which is why I got into considering the bi-gender thing). There is nothing but Type 3 on the Benjamin Scale that seems to allow that.
I live as a man. I've never underdressed not counting leggings under my jeans for cold weather motorcycling.
Sex object is primarily hetero. It's been asexual. I'm "lesbian" when femme. Never been or attracted to a guy. I've purged before. I'm not turned on by the touch of the clothing or anything like that. It's part of the costume and expression of the female personality.
No desire to transition, medicate, or see a psych.
I don't despise my junk, I just wish I could switch it out like a wig. I do have something of a double personality for convenience.
I do experience dysphoria and have since I was a kid, but it's not like I know I'm in the wrong body.

So yeah, even this clinical labeling fails with me.
I cross dress. It defines that action, not the motivation or the person. I wish I knew more - whether to correct it, understand it, or take more advantage of it, but that answer will only come from the experiences, not the words.

Mikaela,

I saw those "official" scales and for lack of a better term felt annoyed. Not one of those describe me. The closest one was labeled with the word "fetishistic".

What you describe is very much how I am to. I live as a male, BUT I do wear fem styles, and prefer such. Like you have never been sexually attracted to a male.

The only reason I would see a therapist is to deal with the bigotry. Possibly also to show I am not crazy. I simply have a different eye for fashion, and have an interest in "fem" styles for myself, as well as would like to encourage other males to do it. When it comes to junk, I wish it was retractable :). LOL.

At present I too am asexual, sick and tired of dealing with silly notions. But when enfem I am lesbian for lack of a better term.

Hello to all... I think that this is a good attempt by Alexia to define and describe what she is going through , and by extension , what we each may have gone through (at least in part ) .
I like how she has repeatedly added the disclaimer that it is her idea, how it may be flawed , and how it is open for comment and criticism .
I hope that all will remember this point.
I can relate to some of what she posted , but not all of it . Not the details , and not the sequence . But I can still relate.

I think that it is this type of curiosity is what keeps a forum like this interesting , relevant , and useful. each of us must have our own experience . We all have our own reasons for seeking some (or more) feminine self. I think that we each probably have different starting points and different endpoints where and how we transform ourselves . We each have different limits and goals. But we all have so much in common too. It is nice to be able to define oneself , even though no complete definition is possible. I knew from a very young age that I had a difference in my gender !dentity . I am so happy to have all of the info from you all so that I can understand my own experience better.

This Label system is not new. I believe it was Harry Benjamin who developed it first and it actually had 10 stages.
Labels are inherently bad...but unfortunately sometimes necessary.

My problem with Alexei's scale is that it's one-dimensional. It's as if someone were assuming that "travel" necessarily means going from New York City to Washington, DC on I-95. It leaves out those who want to go to Boston or Oneonta or Hudson Bay, not to mention those who just like to drive around at random and see the countryside.

I'm not sure whether she meant to come up with labels for everyone here, or just for a subset. She uses the term "transgender condition," which I've seen used to mean anything from serious transsexuality to guys who like pink. So maybe she is only talking about those people to whom her labels apply.

They definitely don't apply to me. I'm someone who is definitely gender non-conformant -- for starters, I like to wear skirts and dresses -- but on the other hand, I don't feel like I have a "female self" (or a male one, either.) In fact, I have never been able to figure out what gender even means beyond anatomy and the mishegoss that society tries to brainwash you with. I'm incorporating more "for women only" things into my life, but I don't see that as "expressing femaleness." I'm just no longer limiting myself to what society deems acceptable for males. I have no interest in progressing towards "true femininity" because "true femininity" seems just as limiting and alien to me as "true masculinity." I feel like I would be just exchanging one set of chains for another.

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Originally Posted by Asche

My problem with Alexei's scale is that it's one-dimensional. It's as if someone were assuming that "travel" necessarily means going from New York City to Washington, DC on I-95. It leaves out those who want to go to Boston or Oneonta or Hudson Bay, not to mention those who just like to drive around at random and see the countryside.

I'm not sure whether she meant to come up with labels for everyone here, or just for a subset. She uses the term "transgender condition," which I've seen used to mean anything from serious transsexuality to guys who like pink. So maybe she is only talking about those people to whom her labels apply.

They definitely don't apply to me. I'm someone who is definitely gender non-conformant -- for starters, I like to wear skirts and dresses -- but on the other hand, I don't feel like I have a "female self" (or a male one, either.) In fact, I have never been able to figure out what gender even means beyond anatomy and the mishegoss that society tries to brainwash you with. I'm incorporating more "for women only" things into my life, but I don't see that as "expressing femaleness." I'm just no longer limiting myself to what society deems acceptable for males. I have no interest in progressing towards "true femininity" because "true femininity" seems just as limiting and alien to me as "true masculinity." I feel like I would be just exchanging one set of chains for another.

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I certainty like your point and I believe, a lot of our community can identify with your vision of the world. Transgenderism if a fluid condition, and gender it self is in a flux, where mix of masculinity and femininity can occur at any proportion to each other. I also believe that every human being is made up of such mixture of characteristics. Some have more masculinity, some more femininity. Hence manly females feminine males and so on. Of course I am not attempting to make up a "one fits all" definition but it would be nice to get closer to the true understanding. I am studying psychology at this time, not scholastically, but am considering such, it is both fascinating and scary. I am discovering that what we consider conscious and fixed is only a tip of an iceberg. Under small tip of this enormous self lies subconscious, an autopilot which has its own self protection mode and will often control and disallow direct knowledge of what really makes us tick.

Often our view of the world and ourselves within is skewed and clouded. I often heard some girls here describe them selves quite categorically as one way or the other to then 1 or 2 years later admit to feel a much grander scope of their gender continuum. Often fear, guilt, self dissatisfaction, and so on, contribute to trying to put a lid on the feelings and lead to limited description and self understanding. But this shall remain as long as bigotry and non acceptance surrounds us.

Love, Inna.