Role reversal in marriage

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Hmm. :)

Well, now that so many women are in the workforce and the number of women who get college degrees are equal to or have surpassed the men getting degrees, in this economy it's not unheard of for the woman to be the only person in the relationship who is working. I don't know that I would call this gender role reversal though, since a woman working does not contradict her still being a woman, nor does a dad who is home with the kids while he is looking for a job contradict his still being a man.

Maybe a CDer in this situation would look at it differently though. :p

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Very good points! In todays world it is not unusual for the wife to be at least as qualified and capable of making a good income as the husband. Not based on any studies or data, but just judging by what I see of other couples, it seems to me that more couples than not have to have BOTH of them working in order to make ends meet these days.
I honestly dont know how I would deal with it if I were unemployed and my wife was bringing home the bacon. I know for certain that I would take good care of our home and children and be a good "house husband/wife" but I really dont know if I could stand it any longer than I had to. When it comes down to it, I guess I AM a product of my generation, and so while I know I would do a good job of it, I don't think I could stand it for too long.

Reine, the key here is that, from the age of four, I have had these fem feelings and have carried them around for 59 years. In that time I have seen the changes that have come with feminist philosophy and have embraced them in my work and in my marriage.

When I was married 40 years ago I did not want the traditional marriage and hoped for shared responsibility. It developed over time, first with major decisions and then with other aspects like cooking and eventually caring for the emotional support for the kids. I paid a price for that in the low opinion my family, my in-laws and others had of me as a man. We now have a reverse sort of situation where I shop and cook and have done the social networking as well as the touchy feely aspects of relationships and she cares for the cars, mows the grass and deals with the repair people.

When I was first married I expected these fem feelings to somehow go away but they didn't. As time moved on I got to value the expressions of traditionally female tasks as I developed my fem feelings and dressed often.

As a child I understood that men paid a price for their privilege and wanted to share the burdens and responsibilities of life. Being like my mom was a good thing in so many ways other than dressing and was always part of life for me.

Getting thrill out of the things June Cleaver did is something that I understand embraces a bit of sexism just as my interest in lingerie and lace also is a little anti feminist. Both my daughters in law enjoy professional careers but both get their nails done as a fun fem thing. Is it wrong for me to also want a few fem things as well?

This whole issue comes to us from the 70's btw when it became allowable for 2 incomes to count towards a mortgage and then suddenly it became required because the prices of the housing sky rocketed. Prior to that a single person's income was the sole allowable requirement, and a good job for one of the people was usually enough.

Two income families are now the norm meaning that there is no "Mom" at home to do the chores and take care of the kids etc. Sadly there is no Genie to put that back into the bottle.

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Originally Posted by TxKimberly

it seems to me that more couples than not have to have BOTH of them working in order to make ends meet these days.

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That depends on what they want in terms of material values, and what they want for their children in terms of having one parent home. I'll quickly add that I'm sure there are households where the family couldn't eat and pay bills on just what one parent makes. I think there are many, though, who have simply decided that having a particular type of house in a particular type of neighborhood with particular types of vehicles and perhaps a boat, expensive bikes, nice vacations, etc, etc, are essentials, when really they're not.

I think there's probably also a reluctance on the part of either parent to be the person who does not have a career. It's a rather vulnerable position to be in.

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Originally Posted by Abigail Evans

Not sure if that really matters or not. In a successful team the members complement one another's abilities and the resultls are additive. This is true both in a relationship and life in general.:)

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AHHHHRRRRRRR there's that "TEAM" Corporate BS word that I thought I left behind with retirement..... Choke, Gag Gag....

I'm fine now... sure glad I've got a Shrink appointment this morning!!

Kerry

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Originally Posted by Sophie86

So does gender identity have nothing to do with those roles? I would like to hear your explanation of gender identity. Is there something about it that is innate to the sexes, or is it all just socially constructed?

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I think it simply has to do with who we feel we are internally, male or female (or a combination of both), independent of career choice or home chore options.

There used to be a huge gender role separation between male/female which maybe made it easier for some CDers to feel more feminine if they were engaging in specific activities such as doing housework or "secretarial" work. But just the fact that many traditional gender roles no longer exist and CDers still enjoy dressing proves that gender identity is so much deeper than career choices, what activities people prefer engaging in (i.e. sports or attending classical concerts which are enjoyed by both men and women), who pays on dates, and what chores they perform at home.

In another thread I wrote that I don't believe gender is socially constructed simply because of the narrowed gender gap in just about every life area (except wearing clothes), and the fact that it doesn't make a dad who was awarded custody of his children (which is the epitome of past female roles) want to begin presenting as a woman.

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Originally Posted by lynnmcarthur

Is it wrong for me to also want a few fem things as well?

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No, of course not! :hugs:

But, if you say the things that you DO (such as housework or taking care of the kids) are what make you feel more femme, I would challenge you and suggest that you would feel femme even if you did not do these things, since your gender identity is much deeper than that. I would also say again, that non-TG men who do housework and who take care of the kids, or who enjoy the arts & theater do not feel more feminine. They're just doing what needs to be done and enjoying what they enjoy.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

I think it simply has to do with who we feel we are internally, male or female (or a combination of both)

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So what does it mean to you to feel like a woman?

As crossdressers, I think we're very wrapped up in stereotypes of womanhood and manhood. The things that fall under womanhood are the things we feel like we've been denied experiencing, whether they're externals or internals, and for whatever reason we want them. I don't think the externals are necessarily a trigger for the internals. I think to some degree they are experiences that we want to have for their own sake, or rather for the sake of the pleasure that we get from them.

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Originally Posted by Sophie86

So what does it mean to you to feel like a woman?

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I don't know how to answer this other than I just feel like I am. I've never questioned it. I probably have a lot of stereotypical male traits (I'm analytical and very competitive in some areas), but this never made me feel "masculine". lol

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Originally Posted by Sophie86

As crossdressers, I think we're very wrapped up in stereotypes of womanhood and manhood.

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I'll agree with you there, and I'll further suggest that as CDs, you've felt you had to insulate your inner femme selves pretty heavily while growing up, which resulted in perhaps a stricter definition of what a man should be. Hence there is a much sharper difference in your gender definitions than other, non-TG folks?

So, if you go ahead and do the things you've denied yourselves (other than presenting as a woman which IMO requires a separate discussion), such as redecorate a room, having a day's spa experience with body & facial massage, knitting a scarf, baking a cake, crying at a sad movie, etc, then by all means do so! :) People will not think you "odd" for doing these things. In fact, I think they would be good exercises in integration, which I believe is a good goal to have for many CDers. :)

I'll further clarify and suggest that gender identity has little, if anything, to do with what we do and has everything to do with who we see ourselves as. And to further confuse the issue, we all define gender based on our own perceptions and models. Some may choose the June Cleaver model, others Katie Couric, still others Paris Hilton, and so on. And on top of this, many of us will combine traits for several different models to construct our own definition of gender. This modeling is not unique to the trans community... cis males and females do exactly the same thing. Some guys go for the Charles Atlas model and others the Donald Trump power model. Ladies have choices ranging business baroness Carley Fiorina to domestic diva Martha Stewart.

The flaw in all this is that most of us seem to think we can only model our behavior on the gender we identify with (in the case of trans gender persons) or our birth sex (in the case of cis males and females). No outward act can define us. And gender, in particular, is an essence that radiates from deep within ourselves. for the non-dysphoric, the passage from internal to external is easy. For the gender dysphoric it often involves having to turn ourselves literally inside out (putting on clothing and/or make-up) so that others can see in a physical way what is being felt inside. Maybe there is a better way to do it, but in 64 years, I have yet to discover it.

Thanks Holly, you say it so well

Interesting thread. In my view, tasks, whether child rearing, cooking or housekeeping, are not gender roles. They are just things that need to get done. I understand that women traditionally performed these tasks, but now days most women work and even a majority of children are raised in female-headed, single parent households.

Do I feel feminine when I'm vacuuming or making a salad? Only if I'm wearing stockings, skirt and heels while I'm doing it! My gender identification isn't really defined by the tasks I am doing or the clothes I'm wearing; but rather by the way I feel about and see myself.

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Originally Posted by kimdl93

Interesting thread. In my view, tasks, whether child rearing, cooking or housekeeping, are not gender roles. They are just things that need to get done. I understand that women traditionally performed these tasks, but now days most women work and even a majority of children are raised in female-headed, single parent households.

Do I feel feminine when I'm vacuuming or making a salad? Only if I'm wearing stockings, skirt and heels while I'm doing it! My gender identification isn't really defined by the tasks I am doing or the clothes I'm wearing; but rather by the way I feel about and see myself.

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I think this really hits the nail on the head. These days, it is more about division of labor. In my household, we share most of the responsibilities jointly. I typically do most of the parenting and most of the 'breadwinning' (we run our own home based business). My wife works for the business too, and cleaning, cooking, etc are generally shared. The only real exception is laundry - if I do laundry, we'll end up needing a new wardrobe! So we try to take on the jobs that we are each best at. Gender really doesn't come into play. I think the reason the terms 'mens work/womens work' are still used is simply as an easy way to communicatr what tasks are being spoken of, instead of trying to force people into those jobs by gender.

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Originally Posted by suchacutie

In fact, role reversal is exactly what is NOT a part of what we do. We absolutely agreed that the "him" and "her" in me were to be kept separate so our roles would not change. What that means is that we added a girlfriend for my wife. Extrapolated out that meant we added a new set of roles and Tina is not a husband, and, frankly, has no capacity to be one!

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Thats somehow very arousing...

I understand all of your opinions and can agree but for me it seems to be a little bit different: when in male mood i prefer shared tasks and responsibilities but when in female mood (and that was is becoming more and more often) i prefer the old traditional role sharing. then i want to be the housewife who is responsible only for the clean house, laundry etc. Then i want my wife (wishing her to be my husband) to be the absolute power and authority in our relation.
How would we call me then: a 50's traditional housewife crossdresser (crossdreamer)? or what? any suggestions?

Dunno about role reversal ...... but in our case I just realised she's the boss , and I do as I'm told . :)

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Originally Posted by Shelly67

Dunno about role reversal ...... but in our case I just realised she's the boss , and I do as I'm told . :)

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Shelly, this is it! You are lucky. I like this, not in a kinky way but because i am convinced it's the best for the two parties.

Rather an interesting thread, as are the varied responses. I'll add my $.02 worth......

I was raised to believe we ALL helped out around the house, regardless of sex, sexuality, gender or what ever you want to call it. I've cooked, cleaned, cut the grass, shopped, built a house, plumbed it, ran electrical wires and mortared the fireplace. I've also painted the bedroom pink (my favorite color), wallpapered, poured wine when friends were visiting, etc. All while wearing panties (either briefs or longline) and hose with my toenails painted. I've worn a bra while shopping and 'skinny jeans' while visiting friends. I've never noticed any different attitude when doing so from anyone, either family or friends or, to be quite honest, strangers. Of course I've never cared what strangers think.

Years ago, my Dad told me, half jokingly, half seriously, that if I couldn't wash my own clothes, darn my own socks, cook my own meals, iron my own trousers and shirts and in general clean up after myself, I'd never make any woman a good WIFE.

I ALWAYS ironed my own clothes from the time I was about 11 as no one else could satisfy my way of wanting things done. The Marine Corps enforced these personal responsibility ideals. Now that I am retired from both the Marine Corps and law enforcement and my wife has her own career, I have no problem picking up the broom and cleaning house or cooking a nice meal for her. It just makes things easier for her. The fact that I usually do so enfemme is an added bonus for me as I never know if she will bring one of her female coworkers home with her until just before she gets home. She'll call me about 5 minutes before she opens the door wearing the cutest, innocent pixy smile on her face.

Oh, almost forgot. When I retired the second time, my SO said that I could 'run things at home'. When I asked her what I could run, she said, "The dishwasher and the vacuum cleaner". Of course, she was joking, but she already had her own career so I took it seriously........

Yeah, we're both avid gardners and I still do the 'man things' that need doing...............sigh..............

It is rather sad, I was always told the original goal of the woman's movement was to allow greater choice for men and women in terms of traditional gender role; eg. women could have a career and men could be stay at home fathers. For whatever reason, in most cases nowadays both parents have to be slaves to the grind just to survive (they have no choice) and keep their families fed and being a stay at home parent is no longer an option.

Those who can be stay at home moms are sometimes looked down upon by other women, and stay at home dads always seem to be looked down upon by everyone (they are lazy, being a stay at home dad is not considered "work" for men, etc.)

I guess some call this "progress" :doh:

it hapens before you realize it. then one day you are doing the dishes and running to the ladies room in the middle of a date

It's a very sexy idea to me. My new gal-pal (not really my girlfriend yet I guess) does present kind of butch. I would love it if we could switch roles.

Our wives must be related.She have a twin sister?

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Originally Posted by Vickie_CDTV

It is rather sad, I was always told the original goal of the woman's movement was to allow greater choice for men and women in terms of traditional gender role; eg. women could have a career and men could be stay at home fathers. For whatever reason, in most cases nowadays both parents have to be slaves to the grind just to survive (they have no choice) and keep their families fed and being a stay at home parent is no longer an option.

Those who can be stay at home moms are sometimes looked down upon by other women, and stay at home dads always seem to be looked down upon by everyone (they are lazy, being a stay at home dad is not considered "work" for men, etc.)

I guess some call this "progress" :doh:

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In my opinion, this is also why we have seen a rise in middle class income of just a little over 3% (adjusted for inflation) since 1970. Since both parents are out to work, employers figure that the two incomes are able to support the household.

I wouldn't say we are the typical role reversed marriage. I do stay home with our young child (and do quite a bit of the cooking/cleaning). Of course this is only due to my losing my job and not being able to find another. My wife does work and supports us both.

I've never thought of Housework as "womens work" Everybody in our home (me,wife and 2 stepsons) shares the responsibilities of Cleaning up,dishes etc,I mean we all dont wanna live in a pigsty so we all should help out.Mind you cant call D.I.Y. Mans work in my house as I'm bloody awful at it lol

Sophie

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Originally Posted by Sophie86

First, go back and look at your age stats for members of the forum. :p

Second, consider that even though housework is shared in a modern family, the stay-at-home role is still primarily held by women. Trust me. I would love it if there were more stay-at-home dads doing the homeschool thing, because I feel a bit uncomfortable hanging out with married women. I'm definitely the rare exception around here though. So when we talk about role-reversal, we're not talking about doing "women's work," we're talking about taking on the role that is still primarily filled--when it's filled at all--by women. Women are free to go out and work and earn money for the family, but for the man to stay home and take care of the kids while his wife works is still a bit of a thing.

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Sophie, I think you make a good point - for many of the members on here who are over the age of say, 35, it IS quite a bit more unusual to have the man be the stay-at-home parent. However, we've been talking about this where I work - there are a lot more men who come with the kids for family programs than ever before. There are a LOT of dads who come down with school field trips to help out with their kids' classes, especially in the younger grades. I think this trend will only increase. Will phrases like 'mothers know best' adjust with the times? I don't know.

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Originally Posted by Sophie86

So does gender identity have nothing to do with those roles? I would like to hear your explanation of gender identity. Is there something about it that is innate to the sexes, or is it all just socially constructed?

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I think a lot of what gender identity DOES do is affect the social processes but not necessarily the roles, customary jobs, and interests of a gender. I think that gender roles are all very complex and based on culture, history, economics, and personal life experiences as well as the niches each of us carve out in our own lives. Men OR women can cook. Men OR women can change diapers and sing bedtime lullabies. Men OR women can mend broken things; the difference is the processes in thought and function that get us to the completion of those tasks. Maybe the important thing about clothes is their symbolic nature for that 'other', for that mystique that is feminine? Many of the transwomen on here note that once they start to live fulltime with those female processes that the clothing becomes less important.

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Originally Posted by pinto

Shelly, this is it! You are lucky. I like this, not in a kinky way but because i am convinced it's the best for the two parties.

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I think that for everyone, and every relationship, there are different 'bests.' I know that if I had a relationship where I was the boss of everything, it wouldn't last forever. Don't get me wrong, I'm a very bossy person and I enjoy making decisions and organizing things - but I need a partner who will push back once in a while, or isn't afraid of making a decision or doing their own thing and taking initiative on stuff that's important to them and to our relationship. I would not fare well with EITHER of us being an absolute authority, we are truly partners.

Pinto, it sounds to me like your feminine self is one which feels liberated from responsibilities, that you need that time where you don't have to worry about other pressures, decisions and life issues more and more than you used to. Is there something that is triggering this craving to shed responsibilities? Sometimes a response this strong is in regards to a strongly stressful trigger that is happening in your life somewhere, and it might be better for your mental health in the long run to discover what that is and deal with it directly rather than just the symptoms?