Nature vs Nurture? Is CDing genetic, or learned (or both!)

It was so very confusing to me. I don't know if it was learned or genetics or inheritance. I do know that after a shower as young as 4 and 5, I would wrap the towel around my waist and I remember many times pretending that I was one of my attractive aunts. Then later on around the ages of 6 through 9, for halloween, I would always dress as a girl, and went to halloween parties as a girl. I would wear my sister's clothes and the feeling was awsome, but I never said anything about how it made me feel at that time. It all did seem so natural for me tho. The boys in school would always say, you look like a girl, or you throw like a girl, etc. I had to work hard at walking, and talking, more masculine things to be like my peers at the time. I knew I was supposed to be a guy, but why did I feel so different inside I wondered through all the years? And now, I understand that this is me, having to hide my feminine side from the world......love & respect....Tara

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Originally Posted by Sophie86

The other is that it made dressing up feel like an escape from the pressure of being male..

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That's an interesting concept. Not only with that scenario, but that may be applicable in a more general sense. Never really thought about it like that.

I read an article a while back about the increasing likelihood of boys being born into large families being gay. I am the youngest of 4, not a huge family, but 2 brothers and a sister. I have always believed I should have been a girl and my sister left some excess X chromosome that I have been growing into ever since. What I find weird is that in my genetic male persona I am heterosexual and am 100% attracted to women - just ask my gf, but as Sarah Jayne, I am 100% drawn to males and dream of being made love to - does anyone else experience this?

I believe that whole-life sex hormone exposure is the primary cause of all variations in sex, gender, and sexuality in the human population. This means that gender variation is natural and biological but not primarily or directly genetic. The sex hormones that our bodies produce are influenced by genetic factors, but the sex hormones that determine fetal development and mature growth often come from external sources.

It’s also true that people learn to perform their gender expressions to some extent, but I don’t believe that learned behavior is the primary cause of gender variation.

I was fortunate to see a presentation on Brain Gender Identity by Dr. Sidney W. Ecker, M.D., F.A.C.S.
Dr. Ecker believes that all gender-variant behavior is all part of a single transgender continuum.

The exact mechanism by which we become transgendered has yet to be found. Perhaps it is a genetic combination, perhaps epigenetics, maybe both. Reasearch IS being conducted.

http://aebrain.blogspot.com/2009/05/...tation-by.html

My opinion: NOPE. I won't play the "blame game". Everything in life is a matter of choice and while there may be factors both external and internal that cause a predispostion to a certain type of behavior the fact remains that the decison to endulge, or manifest it, is always our responsibility.
I am who I am because I want to be. Not because someone or something made me to be this way.
How can one accept who they are if they refuse to take responsibility for themselves?

Ah, the ol' "Nature vs Nurture" debate! I think both have something to do with it. Many crossdressers suggest that they have been this way since they can remember. And while this is somewhat unrelated in many ways, many gay people say they were born that way.

But I didn't start crossdressing until I was 12. So was I born this way, or did I learn it? I know that once I slipped on a pair of pantyhose, I was hooked. I remembe always being fascinated with the way women dressed as opposed to men. But until then I had not really considered dressing myself that way. And I learned a whole lot about crossdressing as time went on. So much of this behavior is learned.

But looking back on things, and considering that I'd always found myself drawn to skirts and dresses, lacy clothing, and all the rest, I have to conclude that I was born with a tendency to want to wear this stuff, and I learned more of this behavior as I grew older.

I vote for both.

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Originally Posted by Sophie86

The other is that it made dressing up feel like an escape from the pressure of being male.

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Had a chance to think about this some more. At first I thought it might be applicable in a more general sense, but as I think back, as a boy I never felt any pressure to be a male. I was just that way. I enjoyed being with my father and older brother. They were some of the happiest days of my life. The only pressure I can remember was when I was an adolescent and being attracted to girls and trying to talk to them. Then I think I felt some pressure to project some sort of inflated image of what I thought a man should be.

I think about how I feel now, and I don't feel any specific pressure to be a man. The pressure that I do feel is the general pressure of survival. But I think that would be there, even if I was a woman. For me, I think it can provide some release in that it's something that I find to be pleasurable.

Any rate, I said all that to say that after thinking about it, at this time, I can't see how it can be applied in a general sense.

When a person is worried about something they believe is unusual or even "bad" they start to rationalize why this happens. Nature and nurture surely have a place in some behaviors. Nature can give you abilities like being a pro-level athlete or musician but nurture would be needed to make these abilities work. On the flip side it is not common for someone to be "nurtured" in an ability that nature didn't have a strong influence on. So at best I would think your mother may have honed your style but not your desire. I have a very strong male role model in my father. Sometimes I envy the fact that he is so male. My younger brother followed that path. I went toward the effeminate and my middle brother is a masculine gay. I don't believe that we were nurtured any differently.

I will stick with you is what you is by nature and maybe directed a bit by nurture.

It certainly is not genetic as patterns could be easily traced within family trees. There are no patterns to crossdressing, it occurs on an individual level.

It is not nuture for TSs because they have a gender identity issue from the get-go. That does not necesarily mean they were born that way as this an identity issue and is most likely to develop during the first two years of development when self-awareness develops.

However most CDs develop in later childhood and some well into adulthood. This strongly implies it is a psychological need driven by gender dysphoria - a lack of connection and therefore contentment with your given physical gender. This leads CDs to explore the escapist fantasy that we could transform ourselves into girls thus relieving ourselves of the problems associated with being a boy.

Saying that, those who develop the dressing habit around or after puberty are quite likely just exploring sexual feelings, and with actual sexual encounters out of the question, use female undergarments for their highly symbolic sexual meaning and get hooked that way.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

I've often wondered if the majority male CDers (and not TSs) who did not experience any sexual gratification over the dressing as teenagers/young men, if there would have been as serious an interest to present as a woman going into the later phases of adulthood.

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I seriously doubt it for those who developed before puberty. Crossdressing is for the most part just a growing up difficulty which is solved by escapism into the opposite gender. Most people would get over those issues by adulthood and deal with it just like any other issues relating to skin color, religion, social-economic background etc. The sexual/emotional high CDs obtain from the fantasy creates a compulsive behavior which in time becomes an integral part of the personality. This is the main reason why tomboys and crossdressers turn out so differently as tomboys never develop a compulsive behavior.

In my case I don’t think my cross-dressing was nurtured. I remember my sister putting me in her dress once while I was very young, but other than that I lived in what I perceived as a very unaccepting environment. My father was a strong role model and, although loving, growing up I felt that he would not have accepted it at all. He has become more accepting as he has aged, but I still don’t know how he would react if he knew. I went to a Catholic school and received a large dose of the accompanying guilt that even if you think it, then it is a sin. So other than my family and kids at school, I had to worry about GOD disapproving.

I can’t think of any nurturing but can think of an enormous amount of guilt and fear that would prevent me from having any benefit to dressing. But I still would sneak into my sister’s room and dress up when no one was home. I don’t think it was the forbidden fruit as I avoided getting in trouble at all costs…I didn’t have the forbidden fruit personality.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

My personal opinion: both.

Speaking strictly of CDers here and not TSs, I think first there has to be a predisposition (nature) to explore it. Also I think that the method of exploration that is most significant, during the teenage years when it is intensely sexual (nurture) for most CDing males, causes some brain connections to be made that last a lifetime. It's almost like the intense connections that people make when they first fall in love. A bonding takes place that survives the test of time, even after all these intense sexual feelings about one another calm down after many years.

I've often wondered if the majority male CDers (and not TSs) who did not experience any sexual gratification over the dressing as teenagers/young men, if there would have been as serious an interest to present as a woman going into the later phases of adulthood.

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Not in my case. My older sister only grew to 4’10” so I quickly grew too big for her clothes. I also moved as a young teenager and was trying very hard to fit in, pretend I wasn’t a freak (no access to resources for a 13 year old in the late ‘70s, and a lot negative stereotypes) and tried to suppress the feelings. I thought about it a lot, but without access to clothing, and with a lot of denial, I don’t ever remember it being involved in sexual gratification. But as a teenage boy, the change in the wind direction can set you off so who knows.

In my very uneducated opinion, I don’t think that it is genetic in the way that we have cross dressing DNA, and that it would be passed on to future generations, but more that it is likely produced while the brain is developing in the womb. There are a lot of hormones involved which affect how the brain and body develop. Nature doesn’t always produce as planned so the wrong hormones at the wrong time could produce a whole variety of results.

I have also seen that there are many members of this forum who didn’t have the desire until later in their life, so I think that just as we are all very different, there are probably several different causes that have the same end result. A type of convergent evolution, like bats and birds. Both ended up with wings, but both evolved in a completely different manner.

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Originally Posted by Sue101

However most CDs develop in later childhood and some well into adulthood. This strongly implies it is a psychological need driven by gender dysphoria - a lack of connection and therefore contentment with your given physical gender.

Crossdressing is for the most part just a growing up difficulty which is solved by escapism into the opposite gender.

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Hmmm...

Interesting

Could you please expound upon these concepts in more detail. Specifically, exactly what do you mean by a "lack of connection". Also could you explain just exactly what is this "growing up difficulty" and provide an example of what you mean.

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Originally Posted by Sue101

It certainly is not genetic as patterns could be easily traced within family trees. There are no patterns to crossdressing, it occurs on an individual level.

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In a overly simplistic way that may be true. It is probably more correct to say it isn't heritable and even then with the number of TG's who are hiding you don't have a good base line. It c an also be a latent genetic trait expressed under certain conditions. There may be a genome that isn't mapped yet. So you cannot rule out genetics.

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Originally Posted by Sue101

I seriously doubt it for those who developed before puberty. Crossdressing is for the most part just a growing up difficulty which is solved by escapism into the opposite gender. Most people would get over those issues by adulthood and deal with it just like any other issues relating to skin color, religion, social-economic background etc. The sexual/emotional high CDs obtain from the fantasy creates a compulsive behavior which in time becomes an integral part of the personality. This is the main reason why tomboys and crossdressers turn out so differently as tomboys never develop a compulsive behavior.

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This, again is overly simplistic and probably very wrong. If this were true it would be a reinforced behavior which other that the "risk" factor really has no reinforcement. I think if you talk to many of us here you will find as many or more who had no difficulties growing up. It wasn't a Princess escape. You totally over look the people like me who some how knew that the clothes and the actions were correct at a very young age. We didn't hate being boys. Many of us liked both genders. You would then suggest that being a super hero would lead to dressing as one later in life?

I am sticking with nature and then reinforced by nurture and/or deriving pleasure in some form

Is there any experimental evidence to support the notion that it is a latent genetic trait or are you merely saying that it's possible?

The idea that crossdressing is genetic brings up some interesting questions. Where did my paleolithic crossdressing ancestors get their fishnet stockings? Did they weave them out of straw or draw them directly on their legs using charcoal from the fire? Did they underdress with fig leaf thongs and little sabertooth tiger fur panties under their loin cloths? Imagine the work it took to carve wooden 6” stiletto heels using only stone tools. They would have had to create their own make-up from crushed rocks and vegetable dyes.

Another question is: why? Persistant genetic traits tend to help a species survive in some way. So how does crossdressing help the human species survive and reproduce? One theory might be this: The average cave gal spent her entire adult life (which began at age 12) digging up and crushing roots while she suckled one child and was pregnant with another. After a while she would naturally tend to “let herself go.” The more she let herself go, the more time the cave guys spent out hunting mastodons and giant sloths. If this were allowed to continue, the human race would have eventually died out.

So Darwin, in his infinite wisdom, invented the crossdresser gene. When the women saw how sexy those paleolithic CDs were in their tight leather skirts, grass wigs, coconut shell bras and tarty make-up, they were full of envy and tried to compete by gussying themselves up a little. That gave the cave dudes an incentive to stay at home and spear a different sort of game. And so, thanks to the crossdresser gene, the human race survived to create the Malthusian nightmare we all now live in.

We should all demand the government redirect the funds it spends on wars and bailing out bankers into research for locating the crossdresser gene. It should be right there next to the gay gene and the transsexual gene. Hopefully it will not be anywhere near the genes that cause serial killers, child molesters and politicians. We know the gene exists! Our theory proves it!

:brolleyes::tongueout

Im really confused about this. I started dressing at a very early age, 4. I didn't really know male and female norms at that time. I had male and female influences in my life, so I'm not sure where my cding came from. I think I was born with the urge to cd. I don't know. Oh well, I do now and i don't think there'll be any turning back. :)

Great post LilSissy!

I definitely think it is how we are wired. I have read a lot about the subject and found that it is very common for young boys to explore and try on something feminine. It either clicks and and the boy continues to do it, or it doesn't click and the exploration stops. There has to be something in our wiring that makes it click or feel good that very first time and want to continue. Those of use that did start at age 4 or 5 didn't have the rational reasoning process to make a choice at such a young age. It either felt good or it didn't.

it is how we are wired together. some things are learned but if you were not hard wired to cross dress then you would not do so. you would not have more womens things then mens things.

I think it should be cleared up that nature/genetic does not necessarily mean an inherited family trait. Also nature includes external influences while you are still in the womb.
And with science, for every compelling study that strongly points towards a genetic cause, there is an equally compelling study that strongly points towards nurture. One of my psychology teachers (who has a Ph.D. in psychology and has counseled people who fall under various levels of transgenderism) in most cases genetics will lay down the potential for what we can be, and a nurturing environment is required to achieve that. There is most definitely a genetic cause as it has been noted that the brains of a transsexual developed more like the brains of the sex they identified as, rather than the sex of their birth. But it takes forces outside of our genetics to live as or embrace the gender we identify as. Whether it be a loving and supportive family that just knows, or our own will power to live as who we should be, it takes a degree of the nurture side of the debate to make it so.

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Originally Posted by Schatten Lupus

There is most definitely a genetic cause as it has been noted that the brains of a transsexual developed more like the brains of the sex they identified as, rather than the sex of their birth.

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Let's suppose that the brain does develop as you say. How does that prove that there is a genetic cause?

Furthermore, can you provide a specific source to back your claim on the brain development?

If you ever get it figured out please let the rest of us know what you've found out.

Orchid

People are generally born with mental predisposition toward some form of gender in the male/female continuum. However, it is more due to the environment of your mothers womb. Third sons are significantly are likely to be gay than first sons. You could argue that the womb environment is both nature and nurture, but nurture usually refers to upbringing after birth.

I think that the way children are raised has more to do with their willingness to express their true self rather than conform to a societal standard. My parents always encouraged self expression is far more important than conformance.

Of three sons (I am the middle), I am the only one with feminine tendencies, which were there from a very early age. I was also born with an undescended testicle, which is an indication that I had low testosterone at some point in early development. So, I can confidently say that I was born this way.

Remember, we also start out genderless. I am amazed that divergence to male or female succeeds as often as it does. The brain is far more complex, and has a difficult task. Men are supposed to like masculine things, but choose completely opposite in a sex partner. Correctly developing those conflicting interests seems like a difficult task. It is no surprise that there can be significant variations.

Even more important: Who cares why people are the way they are?

I think it's both.

I believe that for Non-TS crossdressers, the desire to feel "girly" (for lack of a better term) is a natural impulse amongst many men, and then the desire to create and present as a female persona is a learned/nutured behavior developed by the suppression of such desires via the "real men don't do that" type of socialization.

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Originally Posted by juno

Of three sons (I am the middle), I am the only one with feminine tendencies, which were there from a very early age. I was also born with an undescended testicle, which is an indication that I had low testosterone at some point in early development. So, I can confidently say that I was born this way.

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That's interesting Juno, I was born with undescended testicles but I had never heard that it was an indication of low testosterone. I hadn't even given it a thought.