Not sure what to make of all this...(Warning - long post!)

I think it takes another crossdresser, or a GG who's familiar with crossdressers (perhaps has a relative or friend or associate who is one) to refer to a crossdresser as "she" or "her". I find that if I am discussing with my daughter about something I read on here that one of us said, I always refer to that member in feminine terms. I have never met any of us out there that I knew was a CDer, but I would never disrespect her by referring to her as "he". Perhaps it's just something built in to all of us.

Congratulations on a successful shopping day! You'll have to post pics of yourself wearing all your new clothes. :)

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Originally Posted by Leslie Langford

I guess what I am saying here is that the "bad" thing about this incident was that I was obviously "read", but the "good" thing is that it seemed to make no difference whatsoever to them, and they treated me just like any other customer- no sense of surprise, snickering, negative comments, eye-rolls etc. In other words, almost as if they saw crossdressers every day and that it was no big deal to them.

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This has been my SO's experience as well, when she interacts extensively with people (as opposed to sitting quietly at a Starbucks reading for example). Over time she has become friends with the people who work at the places that she frequents on a regular basis. They do know that she is a genetic male who presents as a female and they respect this. They likely are not aware of any differences between CDers or TSs, and so they probably take it for granted that she presents like this all the time.

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Originally Posted by Leslie Langford

As I said in my intro to this post, I have very mixed feelings about what happened to me on that day. On one hand, I should feel crushed that I was "read" so easily - especially considering that I had achieved a very polished look between the outfit I had chosen to wear, my wig, and the great care I had taken in applying my make up (or so I had thought). I was also a little bothered by the fact that I see so many masculine looking GG's out there these days, and I thought that I looked at least as good as - if not better than - many of them, yet I was readily pegged for what I really was. Clearly, I now need to go back and re-examine the other aspects of the way in which I present myself to see what tipped them off - whether it was my voice, my body language, or some other, less tangible marker...

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I see women daily who are all over the spectrum in terms of style, polish, sophistication, and grooming perfection. Some are professionals who wear beautifully expensive business suits with the hair, makeup, and jewelry to match. Others put on their well worn skirt-suits and no-nonsense shoes as a sort of uniform, and rush out the door ready to tackle 10 hour days at the accounting office, not even thinking about hair or makeup. Others are harried, blue-jean clad moms with kids in tow who barely manage to put their hair in a ponytail before leaving the house. And I see the young, leggy college girls on Saturday nights in clubs, with perfect hair & makeup, perfect bodies, wearing their stilettos and snazzy clubbing outfits, yet these same girls show up on campus wearing flannel pants, sneakers, and comfy sweaters. All of these women, no matter what they wear, run the gamut in terms of facial beauty, body proportion, and age.

I mention this to point out that passing as a woman really has nothing to do with the clothes or how well applied is the makeup, or how well-styled is the hair. I think it has to do with just basic physiognomy. There are basic, even if subtle differences between male and female faces, necks, etc, that cannot be completely masked by makeup, especially when a person in interacting closely with someone else for more than a brief period of time. There are many studies, if you care to look them up, finding that people are 97% accurate in determining the gender of faces, and this is with makeup-less women with their hair pulled back mixed in among the men. I suppose this is why TSs have FFS. Unless a CDer has a physiognomy like Andrej Pevic with a small stature and small hands and feet, or possibly very young, there just isn't a way to not be read.

The voice may have something to do with it, although there are men who don't have strong manly voices. I don't think body language would give you away. Really, some men carry themselves like apes but I think most people walk and move somewhere in the middle of the spectrum. Not all women have a graceful sway when they walk yet we still know they are women.

I don't say this to be mean or dismissive. It just is the way it is for most people.

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Originally Posted by Leslie Langford

As many have pointed out here, true "passing" is a Holy Grail that few of us can realistically expect to achieve - even sporadically. Instead, we should focus simply on "blending in", feeling comfortable in our skins, and projecting that serenity and confidence onto those whom we interact with who will then invariably reflect that back on us.

I believe that this is exactly what happened to me on Friday, and if I ever had any remaining misgivings about going out en femme for fear of attracting both negative or unwanted attention, then I think that this experience has put those to bed once and for all.

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I completely agree, especially when dealing with restaurant personnel and SAs. Not one has been impolite to us and as I mentioned earlier, some have even become friends. Things are just so much more relaxed now that my SO feels free to be herself, and has acquired the confidence to know that people will respect her for who she is.

I enjoyed reading your story.

And had I been these SAs, I would not have referred to you as "he". I don't think it would be out of place for you to correct them nicely next time. :hugs:

"Dude, you're gorgeous!"

Oddly enough - this came from a slightly tipsy party-goer this past Halloween. Now, I know darn well I'm not really gorgeous, but this really felt good. Let's dissect it a bit. "Dude" He obviously figured out I was a guy, but despite that, thought I looked good. And felt comfortable interacting with me, whatever I was. I think this made me feel better than actually fooling some other folks who didn't interact with me enough to read me.

I'll venture a guess that you had something similar going on.

Thanks for sharing your experience and launching this discussion.

Sounds like a great day and I'm sorry you were ID'ed. One of the things I truly believe is the general public is not that educated on how to refer to us. Heck, even in these forums we have had people who dress but want to be referred to as he. So all it takes is one well intentioned person saying "He" and the rest around that person follow in suit as the tone has been set.

Thanks, again, ladies, for all the additional comments and insights on this vexing subject.

I guess the consensus here is really the same as the conclusion that I had already reached previously - namely that it is essentially pointless to worry about "passing", as success in that regard can be so random and so difficult to predict. Some observers - especially many GG's - seem to have a certain intuition or "sixth sense" that allows them to spot a crossdresser from a mile away, and it often has less to do with appearance than overall comportment, body language, and the subtle and subconscious clues that we all give off as to the gender that we were socialized as, even if we now realize that it doesn't represent our true birth gender.

A special shout-out goes to GG's SweetPea_GG and Reine who added some very valuable inputs from a GG's perspective, and pretty much confirmed what we all suspected. Still, as Reine pointed out, if we go to the trouble of affecting as feminine an appearance as possible and still get referred to with male pronouns, we have an implied right to be "ma'am"-ed and shouldn't be shy to point that out to whoever is addressing us in a manner we find discourteous - even if it is not meant to be so.

Some people just lack the proper social graces, and it behooves us to correct them when we feel that the way in which we are being spoken to is inappropriate. This is not unlike the annoying habit of wait staff or the people who serve us in stores or similar establishments (especially the younger ones), who have a tendency to address their customers as "you guys", "hun", "sweetie", or even by their first names in situations where this is clearly unwarranted. Friendliness I "get"; inappropriate informality and familiarity I don't, and I've become less and less shy about pointing this out to the guilty parties lately. And having been encouraged by the above responses, I will continue to go out and about, enjoy myself, cease worrying so much about actually "passing", and insist on receiving the respect that I am due as a person - whether transgendered or not, or whether or not I conform to generally expected dress codes (no pun intended - LOL!) for the male of my species.

In that vein, here's a link to an episode called Who Makes the Most Convincing Woman from the "Kenny vs. Spenny" show, which ran on Canadian cable television channels for a number of years up until recently. While most of their competitions are puerile and frat boy in nature and not unlike the infamous "Jackass" series, this one is quite humourous, insightful, and touches on a nerve that we can all identify with:

http://www.sidereel.com/Kenny_vs_Spe...n-1/episode-18

Interestingly enough, the GG's who were called upon to judge who was the more "womanly" of the two competitors were unanimous in their choices, and it was attitude, not looks, which proved to be the overriding consideration. Pretty much what we established here as well, and food for thought...

My thought when reading your post is that sometimes we CDs can look too good----most GGs don't dress as well as you did to shop at the mall---usually its jeans, sensible shoes (for walking) and little or no makeup---so by looking your best you tend to attract attention---the second is speaking---I can have a fairly femme voice when I concentrate on it but when I get excited or distracted, My voice tends to revert to male mode---but like you said, what really matters is that we are excepted for who we are, and besides I would rather be perceived as a gorgeous CD than a plain GG

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Originally Posted by MsJanessa

My thought when reading your post is that sometimes we CDs can look too good----most GGs don't dress as well as you did to shop at the mall---usually its jeans, sensible shoes (for walking) and little or no makeup---so by looking your best you tend to attract attention

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Honestly, there are many women who dress well and who aren't taken for males. Maybe not so much in small towns during the day time (I live in such a town :p), but certainly in urban areas where women work in offices, plus there are well dressed women who go out all the time on dates to better restaurants, shows, or concerts, etc. :)

When birth males are read, it is because of their physiognomy, not their clothes, unless they are dressed like drag queens, in which case they are read all the sooner. TSs are aware of the subtle differences between male and female facial physiognomy and this is why they seek Facial Feminization Surgery.

But, someone like Leslie (who looks incredible) will not be read by the casual bystander who is busy going about his own life. It is only when there is extended personal contact with someone that the more subtle gender cues cannot be hidden. But the nice part about this is, once there is direct contact with someone, a CDer's personality shines through and unless the other person has a severe bias (most people don't when it comes to strangers), the stereotypes begin to melt. At least this has been my SO's experience. :)