June is pride month. Does it or should it mean anything to the crossdresser.

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Originally Posted by reb.femme

It's always great to hear the opinions of the open minded. "The closet cases!" Couldn't you think of a more pejorative term for people who prefer to shun the limelight?

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Nope, I think closet case is pejorative enough to make the point.

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One of my sons, openly gay and currently working in America, has been on UK Pride since the age of 16 and is supported and loved by all of his family, so your generalising is off target.

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Your entire response doesn't seem to apply to my post at all. Your son sounds like a wonderful young man who deserves to feel proud of his courage to come out at such a young age and live his life openly, pride is not for closet cases to act proud while they remain anonymous. Pride celebrations are for people who are PROUD of who they are. How is this even an argument?

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Originally Posted by Badtranny

Nope, I think closet case is pejorative enough to make the point.

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You talk of acceptance, but only on your terms, ......makes you small minded then, which ever way you cut it!

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Originally Posted by reb.femme

You talk of acceptance, but only on your terms, ......makes you small minded then, which ever way you cut it!

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What are you even talking about?

Doesn't mean anything to me. The Confucian in me finds little to be proud of.

I will state though, that having IRL friends might change that.

As much as we are still considered deviants, here, try having a Pride parade in a Muslim country.

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Originally Posted by Badtranny

What are you even talking about?

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I think the point that she is making is the same one that I was making. I was very offended not just for myself, but for a whole group of people here by your comment below.

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Originally Posted by Badtranny

Pride Month is for people who are proud to be who they are. Not people who are ashamed and closeted. Most of the closet cases will be openly "disgusted" by pride parades and such, so that nobody would suspect that they are actually accepting of the LGBT community.

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You presume that people that are closeted should be disgusted and I don't know why you would say that or even know that fact. How can you possibly know what all these people are thinking? People come to this site for support and affirmation, not to get slammed.

I feel that the pride parades are only a symbol of a movement that everyone here should be able to support. This place is about tolerance and acceptance.

You say in your second post about me that we are in agreement - and we are about LGBT rights. My point is that you are doing a very bad job making that point and are alienating people in the process.

The original premise of this thread was whether crossdressers should care about Pride Parades and what they represent. I think the answer should be yes, you may not march or maybe not even attend, but you should be able to see that it is the right thing to do is be supportive especially at this time in history.

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Originally Posted by Badtranny

What are you even talking about?

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:yawn::yawn::yawn: Bored now!

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Originally Posted by darla_g

You presume that people that are closeted should be disgusted

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Holy moly, I don't presume they SHOULD be disgusted. I presumed they WOULD be openly disgusted so they could continue to shield themselves from suspicion. I don't know if you've been paying attention but there is a huge HUGE conservative contingent on this board and many of them have admitted over the years to acting like they're against "gay rights" so their friends don't ask any questions. Even more of them say one thing here but actually vote AGAINST us in the political arena. Isn't it reasonable to assume that at least some closeted people might be ashamed of who they are, or at the very least not proud of it? I'm almost shocked into submission (almost) that this is even arguable.

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I feel that the pride parades are only a symbol of a movement that everyone here should be able to support.

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well duh, but my whole point is there are some here who do NOT support things like pride parades. They want the fellowship (this forum) but won't publicly support our rights because they're afraid it would OUT them from where? ...yes the closet.

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My point is that you are doing a very bad job making that point and are alienating people in the process.

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well that's nothing new, good grief I call myself BadTranny, alienating people is practically my hobby

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The original premise of this thread was whether crossdressers should care about Pride Parades and what they represent. I think the answer should be yes, you may not march or maybe not even attend, but you should be able to see that it is the right thing to do is be supportive especially at this time in history.

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Hell I think the answer should be yes too. The sad reality is it isn't. I may or may not attend any of the gazillion pride events around the beautiful SF Bay, but I'm on the front lines everyday living my life right out in the open. I deal with people every single day who don't approve of my "lifestyle" and that's fine, but I would at least expect those that frequent a forum like this to be doing the right things and voting the right way out in the real world. Pride is not just a party, it's a celebration of the courage to live an authentic life and there are those on this very forum who would not openly support us because they are afraid of the association.

I don't know how much clearer I can be.

Keep it light! Great weather[usually],and many friends and new friends for a day outside.Seems like fun to me..What part of this sounds bad?

Pride is a big awesome fantastic party? Why not be involved? My grandma and I joined in the pride parade in Victoria once! You don't automatically end up gay because you were around gay people. It's not contagious or anything.

I've tried staying out of this because it's potentially a minefield, but I agree with Melissa. Part of the point is pride itself, the other is hypocrisy.

Pride events can be supported, whatever that means, but the real point is celebrating actually living what you are, openly, without fear, with assertion. There are degrees of this, including degrees of legitimate privacy very applicable to many people's lives. But the fact is that most in the forum are deeply closeted out of fear, excluding even their spouses. There's no pride in that - none at all, except a false pride in protecting an image of what you are not. And that's the source of the syndrome Melissa described that *some* do indeed have. The separation from the LGBT community is even represented in institutionalized form in organizations like Tri-Ess.

I've lived my share of this hypocrisy and I've felt the shame at what I am that kept me in the closet for decades. I have yet to fully reveal who I am to the minimum necessary for me to claim authenticity. Happily, I can claim support for rights through most of my life, and I do speak up, often quickly and sharply, when hateful speech aimed at LGBT people starts.

Compartmentalized thinking, self-defensive behavior, and exaggerated compensating mechanisms characterize people across the entire transgender spectrum. The fact that it OFTEN manifests as anti-gay or anti-trans attitudes really shouldn't surprise anyone or be controversial - it's commented on sufficiently in the psych literature.

It doesn't have to be overt, either. Most of the transsexuals here can attest to the fact that part of the psychological struggle in coming to accept their transsexuality is dealing with their own transphobia ... even though they thought of themselves as tolerant and supportive. In turn, many crossdressers are deeply disturbed by any discussion of bi or homosexual thinking in connection with crossdressing because of internalized homophobia.

Pride is open pride. Support is genuine support, not assent, not lip service. The real-world support implications from the psychological fallout seriously affects people's lives. I know everyone reading this knows that. I wonder if they realize how their (and my) justifications contribute to that.

Pride indeed.

I may be living an inauthentic life, but I openly support LGBT rights AND I always vote NDP.

:)

Does that count?

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Originally Posted by drushin703

To me it's acceptance, even though true acceptance seems light years away.
Crossdressers are the little t. in LGBT. Enjoy this thrill ride anyway....dana

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Acceptance is not light years away. I can say that being one of the "older" ladies and having seen the changes over decades. We are so much more accepted than we were in the 70's and 80's and much of that is thanks to the TS ladies who paved the way for acceptance by being strong and not fearing society's ire.
Pride, someone said is for all of us. Pride in who we are, not because we are gay or bi or Lesbian or T, but because we are human and should be proud of ourselves. It should be celebrated by all.

For those that haven't gone to a Pride Festival, try it. You don't have to go dressed if that isn't in your comfort zone. But if you do, look around at the people that are attending. Given the types of dress and the items being sold at booths, you probably aren't getting too many close minded people attending. But you will see all variations of dress among mainly the younger crowd. You will see older couples who have come to learn and enjoy themselves. Basically, you can see anything. And there are a fair percentage of people who aren't LGBT attending. So are we getting through? Just look around a little.

Now I am not saying this to push anyone to go out in the name of "support". Just a statement that it is possible and the support from the general public is growing. I believe that the example Cheryl gives about acceptance getting better is true. We will see a lot of changes because I firmly believe that the younger generation is far more accepting and that will make changes happen more as the years pass and their attitudes become the majority.

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Originally Posted by Bree_K

But if you are just a closet cross dresser and want to live the rest of your life that way, you probably have no reason to help members of the LGBT community, since to the rest the world you are a normal guy. But you might go anyway just to show your support for others who need it.

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While I don't think it was your intent to convey this message, "just a crossdresser" implies a hierarchy, and that those who enjoy crossdressing without being "burdened" by gender issues are somehow inferior to those who are. Hopefully it is just a bad choice of words.

Veronica

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Originally Posted by reb.femme

It's always great to hear the opinions of the open minded. "The closet cases!" Couldn't you think of a more pejorative term for people who prefer to shun the limelight? I thought Pride was about people being free to be who they are and show if they wish, not as an obligation. Such comments as these clearly show the author does not embrace fully the message they purport to espouse. Maybe you too, have issues to consider? :straightface:

One of my sons, openly gay and currently working in America, has been on UK Pride since the age of 16 and is supported and loved by all of his family, so your generalising is off target.

Dana, have a great time, but as you say, true acceptance seems light years away. Sadly, even amongst our own forum.

Rebecca

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Rebecca,

I get from your post that you openly support LGBT rights, despite the fact that as a crossdresser you remain entirely private?

Here's how I see it - if dressing is something that you are happiest just doing at home, and that it doesn't make you feel ashamed to think of someone else seeing you, if you accept who you yourself are and that dressing makes you feel happy, not guilty - that's totally okay. Just because a 'closet' is in a 'bedroom' doesn't mean someone who stays in the bedroom (or, heck, the living room?) is going to have to stay in the ashamed little closet. In fact, if a person's cross dressing is entirely sexual in nature, or all they want to do is wear panties, I don't need/want to know about it because I expect you to respect my privacy and in turn I respect yours.

However, if you're ashamed of who you are and can't accept yourself, you are more likely to try and hide it (and go overboard in hiding it by being openly homophobic or transphobic.) It's those people who are ashamed of who they are, who are so stuck inside their tiny, "OMG, everyone will judge me and hate me and I'm a horrible person and not a real man because I like to be feminine sometimes! No one must suspect!" closets who are not free to acknowledge their true selves whom I think Melissa is referring to as "closet cases."

FWIW, I think that absolutely everyone can - and SHOULD - go to Pride, be out there, be happy and learn that it's not a big, scary, judging-other-people event. Far from it. It's a big, sparkly, fun, open-minded party and the more people out physically showing their support for openess in the community (however they are dressed), the better!

Like I had posted before, I went with my Grandma once. She's a spunky and awesome 84 year old who dresses a bit like the Queen and is spry like she was fifteen or twenty years younger, although the last time my brother and his wife visited she had a little bit of trouble with getting in and out of their lifted Jeep. She's also a conservative old British Northerner who can be kind of racist sometimes, and kind of prudish sometimes - so when she suggested that we go to Pride (I had been kind of planning to go on my own, and was trying to figure out how to let her know I was going to leave her on her own for the day) I was a little surprised, and worried that the sort of PDA that I'd seen at my hometown Pride festival would happen and totally disgust her. It didn't, though, and we had an absolute blast watching the parade! Every. Single. political candidate in the region had a float and was handing out stuff, as was every big touristy destination, like Butchardt's Gardens and the local castle - clearly they think openly accepting the GLBT dollar is good for business!) we joined in the end of it and danced to the festival grounds where we wandered around the booths, which were a mixture between vendors, local businesses like the radio station giving out freebies and information - there was a really great booth on opting in to sexual acts and the 'yes means yes' movement that I can remember, and a couple of booths where there was information about the legal status of homosexuality around the world - including the places where being openly gay is a crime punishable by death. It was really moving - because NO ONE should be put to death because of who they love.

When we were wandering (and not just giggling at the rainbow coloured penis shaped lollipops) I got a picture of my grandma with a burlesque group. There was a hairy leather biker guy in a skirt who we kept seeing, and although I wanted to go and say hi and start talking to that fellow, he kind of freaked out my grandma because she thought he looked dangerous and talking to him might get him mad. We watched a drag queen and a drag king (both of whom my grandma was CONVINCED were actually the gender they were presenting, and I had to explain that it wasn't the case and they didn't just have really slickly dressed up performers - I'm not sure she ever really believed me about the drag king), then a stripping burlesque show where we got a bit more of an eyeful than I think they had intended, as one of the girls' pasties fell off! (The burlesque and drag performers where in a beer garden, so minors weren't exposed to the exposures.)

Anyway, my point is that it was a lot of fun, I learned stuff as did my Grandma, and nothing bad or ugly happened because we were there and we got to see how really integrated into the whole fabric of the city the GLBTTQQIA community really is - and that the Pride community truly is a part of the best of the whole community.

Even if you're not openly dressing, or running a booth, or marching in the parade - if you are able to, please do go to a Pride event. Even just to see what it's all about. These events are big, they're more stable every year, and if you have to tell your family that you're just curious and you want to see what the big deal all is because you heard they were expecting XXXXX people this year and surely there aren't THAT many gays in your city so let's go to this family friendly bit in the park, well, getting there is half the fun, right?

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Originally Posted by Veronica27

While I don't think it was your intent to convey this message, "just a crossdresser" implies a hierarchy, and that those who enjoy crossdressing without being "burdened" by gender issues are somehow inferior to those who are. Hopefully it is just a bad choice of words.

Veronica

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It only implies a hierarchy if you have some sort of self esteem problem. Seeing as how you changed my words, that's probably what's going on... I said if you are just a CLOSET cross dresser (as in... not OUT). You're in the closet, not out in public being yourself and being proud of it. So there wasn't even any comparison of cross dressers vs transgender vs transsexual. It is closeted vs not closeted and if supporting LGBT rights would benefit them personally.

I think the issue should be about LGBT rights and not whether it benefits or doesn't benefit someone else. It's about basic rights that people should have and not whats in it for me.

I think there are some that feel that if something is gained by one group then its taking away from someone else. Gay Marriage is case in point.

oh sweet, i didn't even know it was pride month, but i did hear that this weekend in indianapolis its a pride parade. I wish i'd realized it sooner, then i may have seen if my friend who isn't yet comfortable with the idea i like to dress wanted to go down to Indy with me and me be dressed. I'm closeted to my family but my close friends know and I've been to Pride festivals in August every year now and plan to this August in Lafayette, Indiana. but i kind of hope when i'm in las vegas in 3 weeks that maybe they'll have something going on for pride month. It's a great day to feel proud that i'm a crossdresser and out to my friends.

Kendra

I would love to participate, but many of the media that will be shooting the event are friends. Too big a risk.

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Originally Posted by Babeba

Pride is a big awesome fantastic party? Why not be involved? My grandma and I joined in the pride parade in Victoria once! You don't automatically end up gay because you were around gay people. It's not contagious or anything.

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I remember a dad of one of the girls on my daughter's softball team. The girls must have been about 8 or 9 and mine had been playing for a few years. He said this was her last year in softball. He was taking her out because, "--everyone knows all them older softball girls r gay". And, he didn't want his daughter to be gay! I bit my tongue real hard during that remark!

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Originally Posted by Bree_K

It only implies a hierarchy if you have some sort of self esteem problem. Seeing as how you changed my words, that's probably what's going on... I said if you are just a CLOSET cross dresser (as in... not OUT). You're in the closet, not out in public being yourself and being proud of it. So there wasn't even any comparison of cross dressers vs transgender vs transsexual. It is closeted vs not closeted and if supporting LGBT rights would benefit them personally.

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Dropping the word "closet" was purely an unintentional oversight, as the point of my response was the use of the word "just" to describe any subgroup of the larger community. In fact by including "closet" in your statement, you reinforce the point I was making. Again, I don't think that it was your intention to be condescending to any specific group, as I have read many of your postings, but the word "just" implies a form of inferiority.

Veronica

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Originally Posted by docrobbysherry

He was taking her out because, "--everyone knows all them older softball girls r gay". And, he didn't want his daughter to be gay! I bit my tongue real hard during that remark!

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I think this is one of the points here. When someone says something that stupid, and concerning the kids they are raising, I will not be little polite pc Dad and keep my mouth shut. That type of bigotry and stupidity from a parent is dangerous to that child. I'm not out to everyone but my views are the same whether I'm a CD or some random straight guy. I don't keep them to myself and I won't let the close minded spout off in public and expect to get treated like "normal" people. Hate in any form should be confronted so that they know that it's wrong.

And I have to agree with most everything Melissa has posted. Yeah...you can be private, and closeted, and not OUT all you want. Her point was that it was hypocritical to not find a way to support the rights for others. Attend the parade or don't. Try correcting some friend when they make a bigoted comment. Vote for someone who is for ALL people and not just the people who look, act, and talk like them. It's not always about YOU. Sometimes it's about everyone else.

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Originally Posted by drushin703

June is pride month. Does it or should it mean anything to the crossdresser.

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[SIZE="2"]I have a lot of problems with the word “pride,” so I never use it in conversation. Everyone is proud of something these days, and pride, once a deadly sin, is now seen in an entirely new light. Pride implies a high opinion of oneself, as if you’re speaking from a position of superiority. It can also mean dignity, self-respect, or satisfaction. I can maintain my dignity without being prideful, I have plenty of self-respect, and I am reasonably satisfied with what I have accomplished as a MtF crossdresser, but I wouldn’t dream of being PROUD about something as natural as being transgendered...

The thing is, I had nothing to do with being a crossdresser, a sub-variation of the “T” in GLBT. I might as well say something like “I’m proud to be an air-breather,” or “I’m proud to be a human being.” I had nothing to do with it! Oh, I had the courage to dress up as a form of expression, but the desire to do so was already in place – how can I be proud of a blessed accident? I’m HAPPY to be a MtF crossdresser, I’m HAPPY to be different, and I’m HAPPY to have met many other pilgrims along this twisting transgendered path, but don’t expect me to express "pride" about it. In any event, I see pride as a masculine thing, which, under the queer circumstances I find myself, would be sorely out of place and out of step with effeminacy...

Since PRIDE goeth before a fall, I wish to remain upright at all times... :straightface: [/SIZE]

I don't need a special day or month to be proud of myself.