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Moderator Note: The thread was being diverted by discussion of a particular GG's perspective of DADT. There were some interesting thoughts in that diversion, however, so I split them into their own thread: "This is why I find DADT so frustrating...(a GG perspective)"
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...erspecitive%29
Leslie ... honestly I don't know what to say anymore. It's difficult without also hearing your wife's perspective as well. Would she be able to agree to not pick a fight or give you the silent treatment when you do go out, and not make you feel as if she is guilt-tripping you, in return for your agreement that you should not seek her participation with the CDing?
I feel really bad for you both and I hope that somehow there'll be a breakthrough, and you can meet somewhere in the middle. Please try to keep the lines of communication open.
:hugs:
I'm sorry Leslie, I can't really take your side on this. You knew your "day as Leslie out on the town" would upset your wife but you pretty much said "the hell with you" and did it anyway. That's not really showing respect for someone you love. By doing this, you are destroying her love for you (assuming there is love) and driving her away. How would you feel if while you are out on the town as Leslie, she went out on the town cruising bars and meeting men?Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Langford
A good marriage (the only kind worth having) includes both parties trying to please each other. Trying as hard as possible. If you aren't willing and able to do this, it's time for the marriage to end. You only get one chance at life and it's a shame to live it in an unhappy relationship.
You used the term "transgendered" in one of your posts. I'm sure your wife thought she was marrying a "male". If you now feel "transgendered", not "male", it's bound to be upsetting to your wife. Some of our wives love us enough to accept the fact that we may no longer feel fully male and will accept our changed ways. Others may not be able to accept anything less than a 100% macho male for a husband.
In the end, it's you and your wife who must either work it out or set each other free. Give it some long hard thought, this is a serious decision that will affect the rest of your life.
I'm looking forward to an update on the situation from Leslie.
How are things going, my friend?
Again, ladies, my sincere thanks for all the additional input, and it has given me much food for thought, even though some of you have chastised me for appearing to have taken a hard line with my wife and just gone ahead with my "Leslie" outing last week despite her disapproval.
But this is not typical of me, and was born out of frustration at simply hitting a brick wall in trying to get her to acknowledge my needs, even if she doesn't quite understand them. But by way of an analogy, I also don't need to understand the intricacies of nuclear fusion to still appreciate the fact that this is what makes the sun shine and allows life on Earth to exist...
And please remember - the whole thrust of my original thread was that my situation appeared to go beyond simply trying to live within the confines of a DADT relationship - it was the sense that my wife's controlling nature was starting to make this unbearable for me as she seemed intent on sabotaging every bit of solace and pleasure that I found in my crossdressing activities - and just because they didn't sit well with her.
Most of you ladies who took me to task for that seem to have achieved a true DADT relationship with your wives and SO's where the partners have tacitly accepted the essence of the Star Trek Prime Directive -
"As the right of each sentient species to live in accordance with its normal cultural evolution is considered sacred, no Star Fleet personnel may interfere with the healthy development of alien life and culture. Such interference includes the introduction of superior knowledge, strength, or technology to a world whose society is incapable of handling such advantages wisely. Star Fleet personnel may not violate this Prime Directive, even to save their lives and/or their ship unless they are acting to right an earlier violation or an accidental contamination of said culture. This directive takes precedence over any and all other considerations, and carries with it the highest moral obligation."
But that was not my situation, and as the old Native American adage puts it: "Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his moccasins"...or in our case, pumps ;).
That said - and long story short - after a couple of days of the air being so thick that one could cut it with a dull butter knife, a thaw gradually set in and we resumed communications. No mention was made of "Leslie's" outing, but we did ultimately have a good heart-to-heart where a number of frustrations on both our parts were brought to the surface (most non-crossdressing-related), and which had become festering wounds. We spoke calmly and rationally, having both become totally exhausted by the recent head-butting, and much progress was made. We are both in a good place for the moment (I hope it lasts!), and the intimacy between us that had suffered along the way is slowly coming back.
But what I learned to my surprise during our discussions was that for my wife, the main issue the last time was not her objection to me going out as "Leslie" per se - it was more her on-going fear that something bad might happen to me, especially if it was the result of being unexpectedly (and inadvertently) "outed". This puts a whole new spin on my perception of her objection to my crossdressing, and gives us something new to work with.
I was also heartened to discover yet again how deeply she cares for me despite the signals to the contrary that she often sends out, and which are perhaps nothing more in the end than a sub-conscious defence mechanism. This has made a huge difference to me in how I feel towards her now, and how sad to realize that much of what we had to endure recently was due to miscommunication. Men truly are from Mars, and women are from Venus - and this applies even to us crossdressers, despite our allegedly well-developed feminine sides...
For my part, I have now committed to becoming a better "man" for my wife, even as I accept my "Leslie" side more and more. I believe that there is room for both, and that this simply represents a duality, and not a dichotomy. The burden of proof now rests with me to demonstrate to my wife in both actions and deeds that she and "Leslie" can live in a state of mutual co-existence and acceptance if she is willing, even if there is no great affection for her.
This may also be a good opportunity to close this portion of the original thread, and turn our attention to the spin-off that Moderator Eryn has created in order to focus on the separate dialog that opened up with the enlightening comments DoorMat (how I hate that term!) introduced into the discussion.
Enough of my navel-gazing! ;) - the subject that she has brought up is far more relevant to most of us, especially as it introduces a much-needed GG perspective that we sometimes lose sight of, and which has become quite an eye-opener for some of us here.
Leslie, my heart goes out to you. You deserve better than this; to live a single life in which Leslie is respected and fulfilled. I hope you can find that someday.
I like that. I like that very much.Quote:
For my part, I have now committed to becoming a better "man" for my wife, even as I accept my "Leslie" side more and more. I believe that there is room for both, and that this simply represents a duality, and not a dichotomy.
:hugs:Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Langford
..............
:o
Merci, ma belle!
Sometimes, a gentle smack upside the head and a reality check work wonders. ;)
Hi Leslie, It's like a dud firecracker you don't know if it's going to fizzle or explode.
Originally, it was supposed to be a court martial offence to "out" another soldier to a commander or officer. The biggest problem came 17-19 years later when commanders would start asking peers about someone they thought might be gay until they got a confirmation. Once they got the confirmation indirectly, they could start the process for a dishonorable discharge and screw someone out of their military pension. Nearly all of the "outings" were financially motivated.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikiarata
So you went out and had a really good time AS the other woman.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Langford
Quote:
But then reality hit...
My wife knew that I was going out as "Leslie" (I no longer make any bones about that, her disapproval notwithstanding) and she made it very clear that she was unhappy about it. She also tried to pick a fight with me on numerous occasions the preceding evening with lots of guilt and manipulation thrown in for good measure to try to put me in a bad mood and make sure that I wouldn't enjoy my day out, but I just let it roll off my back like water off a duck's @ss.
Simply put, you stopped being the man that she loved, and probably could have manipulated and became "the other woman" competing for her male companion. You spent money that she may have thought was partly hers - on the other woman. YouQuote:
And for the record, it's not that I don't understand her ambivalence about all this, and I am already doing the best I can to address my needs in this area while still respecting hers - it's the controlling an manipulative tactics that she uses to try to keep me on a short leash as opposed to being more amenable to compromise that really get my back up.
And so it was last night. I came home to a dark house, she was already in bed, and this morning, only a few short, curt words were exchanged before she went off to work. I can't wait to get my usual earful when she gets home tonight...
spent the whole night out, with the other woman, rather than doing the things on her honey-do list, taking HER out shopping for more clothes, or for a nice dinner. You also admitted that when shopping for her, you acted like the bored and frustrated husband who "had" to be there. You don't think that your wife might have loved to hear you tell her how beautiful she looked in at least a few of those outfits? You like being called ma'am, getting compliments on your looks and clothes, and in general getting affirmations. Consider how much your wife might want that same kind of attention - from the most important man in her life - her husband. Next chance you get, you take her shopping like she was shopping for you. Help find things in her sizes, compliment her on every outfit you like, and have the other sales reps join in. Even if she doesn't buy the outfit, she will love that you loved seeing HER wear it.
Be really honest with yourself and have your wife be really honest with you ... are you REALLY that much of a man? Did you wife date you and marry you because she loved how strong, macho, and virile you were? Did she love it when you made mad passionate love to her and brought her to extacy as you made love to her for as long as she wanted? Did she tell you her fantasies - which may have involved romantic as well as sexual fantasies, including romantic places, special people, and special activities? How did you respond? Did you make it a priority to find some way to imaginative way to fulfill both the romantic and sexual fantasies?Quote:
So my point is - I appear to live in two different worlds. "Leslie" is a "persona non grata" at home, my wife and I have a DADT relationship which has its ups and downs (more downs than ups lately), and there seems to be a continuing, underlying tension in our household over this, no matter how much I bend over backwards to accommodate her needs just to keep things in balance.
How does she react when you give her genuine and heart-felt compliments? Do you know HOW she wants to be acknowledged? Maybe she wants you to appreciate how smart she is, how much you LIKE it when she takes control!
I'd strongly recommend the Landmark Forum - from Landmark Education - which would address 99% of the issues you are dealing with, just by giving you a new way of looking at things, including you wife.
If you really want power in your marriage, to create a marriage where you wife might event WANT to go out with Leslie - then you need to take 100% responsibility for the marriage, and be grateful and happy for ANYTHING you get back! Not because that's the "Truth" - but because living that way gives you power in the relationship, the power to cause love and affection as much as you want as often as you want.
Tell you wife how much you love her - at least 10 times a day. Tell her how beautiful she is - at least 12 times a day, and tell her how much you love being married to her - at least 12 times a day. Be genuine, if it's her smile and her laugh that are beautiful, then tell her that. If she gets powerful and strong, let her know you love that.
You have been given an incredible gift! You have been able to experience the most wonderful parts of being a woman, WITHOUT the drama of the first period, the friends who suddenly shut you out, the horrors of being betrayed by your best friend, and the terror of being publicly humiliated by the "mean girls" in front of your entire class, or even just the boy your liked.Quote:
The other world is the one that "Leslie" inhabits, where she is universally liked and appreciated, treated with dignity and respect, and where people are intrigued by her and enjoy her company, rather than being put off by her.
It's truly a schizophrenic situation, and I can't help but wonder if there will ever come a point where the twain shall meet?
You've been able to enjoy and appreciate having people see you, admire you, compliment you, respect you, and be wonderful to you. But you forgot that this is EXACTLY what you wife wants more than anything else in the world, and she wants it most - from YOU!
If, after giving her all those compliments and expressing all that love, and she really begins to appreciated it, and THEN she asks what's up, you can share that you remembered how much you loved being treated that way as Leslie, and realized that she might want to be treated in a similar way.
If you start letting her know that being Leslie has given you new insights into HER needs, and you express a genuine interest in her happiness, and letting her know that LESLIE Loves her too, there is the chance that she might actually want to meet Leslie, perhaps in a neutral place, where she can walk away if she starts to feel embarrassed. She may see that you can pass, she might see how happy you are, and she might want you to be as happy as you have made her.
At the moment, it's quite possible that your wife may see Leslie as the kind of girl she totally hated in school, the self absorbed, vain, selfish little b*tch that thinks the world should revolve around her as the center of the universe, and if your wife can't handle it - then too bad for her!
If ANYTHING, you want you wife to feel as if SHE were the center of YOUR Universe - and that LESLIE wants to be caught in that orbit TOO! Let her tell you how to dress, help you with make-up, and even tell you how to sit, walk, talk, and manners. It will give her a sense of power, and you might even find that you really LIKE having your wife take an active role in your feminization.
Thank you, Debbie, for the time and effort you took to write such a lengthy and well thought-out reply. And while I don't necessarily agree with everything you said in it, there is much food for thought there, and much valuable relationship counselling.
I believe that I had already addressed a number of the issues that you allude to in my last post above, where I did offer my mea culpas for those areas where I was clearly out of line with my wife based on some additional revelations (epiphanies?) that I subsequently had.
I do want to clarify one thing, though. Despite the hard line I appear to have taken with my wife over the last "Leslie" outing, this was the product of sheer frustration over her intransigent position in this instance, and what I saw as an attempt to control me - almost to the point of bullying. And considering that I have zero tolerance for bullying of any kind, my knee-jerk response, as usual, was to stand up to that...
The truth is, I do try to make up for my crossdressing in so many other ways in our relationship to compensate for it, and our marriage wouldn't have lasted as long as it has had I consistently been the selfish pig that some of my own words perhaps inadvertently portrayed me as.
One of the problems I struggle with is that my wife has some self-esteem issues that predate my first meeting her - problems that include an inability to accept praise or compliments (or criticism, for that matter), as well as a tendency to be a bit of a martyr. Conversely, she seems to over-compensate for that by acting like a control freak at times. Long-standing anxiety issues that she exhibits at times are likely at the root of all this.
Case in point - when I talk about the original shopping trip to Jones New York and feigning disinterest in the goings-on while there - that was just me playing the expected "male" role, which consists of acting totally bored, making it appear that I was dragged there under extreme duress, and looking as if someone had just shot my dog. After all, isn't that what "real" men are supposed to do when their wives or SO's take them clothes shopping, and to do otherwise would raise "suspicions" in the eyes of the other shoppers and the SA's? So, more of a CYA move on my part for both her benefit and mine...
That said, I did compliment my wife on some of her choices, and did surreptitiously make some suggestions as to other items that might look good on her. But in her usual self-deprecating way, she shrugged these off, and found a million reasons why certain items wouldn't look good on her (sleeves too short exposing alleged "bat-wings", too baggy for her petite frame, color makes her face look pale, just doesn't "feel" right etc., etc.).
I realize that this is fairly typical with GG's, who invariably have body image issues no matter how good they look to the outside world. And my wife is an attractive woman who has managed to maintain a trim and youthful figure despite the ravages of time, and can easily hold her own against a woman half her age in that department. And yes, I let her know that all the time, and how much I admire and appreciate it. So all the more reason for me to be frustrated by this poor self-image which has no basis in fact. In the end, all she bought was another pair of utilitarian black pants that she can wear to work with a number of different tops she owns. Borrringgg...
My failed attempts at compliments aside, I long ago gave up trying to buy things for my wife that I thought might look good on her when I would come across them during my own shopping excursions. This was mainly because she somehow got it into her head that I was buying the exact same things for myself because I liked them so much, and that just made her feel creepy, used, and second-rate. Nothing could be further from the truth, as "Leslie" always had her own sense of style, and what looks good on her doesn't necessarily look good on my wife - and vice versa. Funny thing is, though - back in the days when I was still "allowed" to buy my wife clothes for Christmas, birthdays etc., her friends and co-workers invariably raved about those items and complimented her on "her" excellent fashion sense. Sigh...
So, the truth is, I do encourage my wife to spend money on herself, be it on clothes, spa visits, mani/pedis, or just plain "fun" events, but for some reason, she just hates to do this, and always seems to put others first.
So yes, I do get flak occasionally for the money I spend on "Leslie", but given the circumstances, I feel that this is also highly unfair and somewhat manipulative - and again, something which adds to my frustration surrounding our particular DADT situation.
Leslie, in your last two posts you have mentioned several things that you are doing to help ease the situation. Has your wife said anything about taking a step toward you. For you to continue to feel good about taking some steps toward her, you also need to know she is commited to taking steps toward you. That doesn't mean she ever has to see the cd'ing or participate, but to eventually come to a point of being OK, just knowing you are a cd, even without involvement. Like Reine said, she has to come to a place where she no longer punishes you mentally or emotionally. That is going to require a willingness to talk and compromise on both parts, probably with a professional third person. That is what is going to be required for you two to come to an understanding and live in peace.