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Could be those reasons mask the self-denial that many have. It's often difficult for a male to admit he has female tendencies or feelings as he may relate those to sex (maybe I'm gay) rather than emotion and by using a superficial reason he doesn't have to face those emotions....Just guessing here, please don't pounce on me...lol
Interesting question. Speaking for myself, I believe the first set of reasons you mention are more superficial and serve as a quick answer to a difficult question. While, at least in my case, most of those are true (I like the feeling of the clothes, the fabrics, I enjoy it, etc) they are not the driving factors. Interestingly, just this weekend I had another of those difficult and heart wrenching discussions with my wife as she tries to cope and understand. Her question went something like this: "I really don't care if you want to wear anything around the house. It's in the end just rags that we use to cover ourselves. But why the need to fully transform yourself into a woman (wigs, make up, breast forms, etc)?"
The truth is, I don't have an answer. That is a question I've struggled to answer for most of my life. Yes I enjoy it, makes me feel at ease & relaxed, etc. Yet, while I do enjoy presenting this side of myself, more importantly it is that something in me that creates a need for me to do it.
Speaking for myself, I would describe it as GID to some degree. There, enough to create a need for me to dress, yet not strong enough to drive me to live 100% of the time en femme or to transition.
agreed! 100%Quote:
which by the way doesn't make sense if these are the only reasons, because men's clothes also come in silk, cashmere, fine woven soft wools, top grade cottons, and also in a wide array of colors.
We live in an age where mens clothing is changing, You can shop and buy mens clothing that is ridiculously femme. Skinny jeans that have pocket detailing.....off shoulder cowl necks....Scarves on men are in fashion.....even our shoes can be purchased in femme colors......
I believe wholeheartedly that we as "men who like womens clothes", have infinite options out there pertaining to what we have available for attire.
They have reasons Riene, They just dont want to admit them for some reason. If there were no femme identity within, it would be guys clothes and not girls clothes. I couldnt tell you why other people lie about their reasoning, other than what we already know about guilt and shame.Quote:
Can anyone tell me why some CDers don't give themselves deeper reasons than just "I think that women's clothes are nicer"?
Also Riene, This question would be have alot better answers if you were asking this from people who were out of the closet. (in any degree)
Most of the reasons like the ones you state above, all come from people who have little or no motivation to be out of the closet. So maybe thats the defining factor in your question.....they have no need to explain it to themselves because it just complicates the reasoning they have for hiding.....
Freddy, You do realize that your speaking to a woman who has been here for years, guiding in the sad and lost GG's of Crossdressers, Is MARRIED to a CD, and has an active open life with her spouse as a supportive SO.....But yet your taking a condescending tone with her because she doesnt agree with your illusions of truth. I think you could be more supportive as well....after all we accept your illusionsQuote:
[SIZE=2]consistent resistance to simple truths expressed on this site only clouds the CD mind and makes everything much more complicated[/SIZE]
We are who we are. We do what we do. Everything else belongs to someone else.
-Donni-
It seemed to me that it became a psychological addiction after I dressed. I have occasionally been fascinated by the reincarnation view (I may have been female in my previous life or may become female in my next life). Regardless presenting as a woman just seems a natural fit. Perhaps it is just cuz i can reject the parts of my personality into donot not like more easily when i look like someone else.
I think it's the same reason women like to wear pretty underwear even though no one will see it. It makes me feel pretty and feminine and I like that feeling. I like feeling more vulnerable and as an object of desire, to be pursued rather than have to do the pursuing.
This is a really interesting thread. I am not convinced that an attraction to wearing makeup, nail polish, jewelry, etc. is neccesarily feminine. I can not explain why I get tattooed either, honestly. I just like the way tattoos look, and I get tattooed because I like it. I crossdress for the same reason, I just really like the way it looks.
I remember having countless, pointless dicussions with my ex wife about 'why' I wanted to crossdress, and had to basically invent 'reasons' that made her feel better. At the end of it all, I only realized that there is no reason. As unsatisfying as it may be, I just feel that every justification I had to come up with was dishonest.
Sorry if this is unhelpful, I just wanted to express that my own answer of 'I don't know why I crossdress' is actually the result of YEARS of thought, questions, accusations and circular conversations.
Hi Reine,
"I just like womens' clothes", seems like an appropriate response to curious onlookers but certainly does not address the issue in any depth.
Carl jung dedicated much of life studied the "anima and the animus", the male and female sides to all persons. He concluded that gender was on a continuum and not just female and male.
The MBTI, Myers Briggs personality inventory was based on his work and helps people identify their personality traits. It analyses introversion/ extroversion, intuition/sensing, feeling/ thinking and how we evaluate. quick judging or gathering info.
The results of these tests tend help to determine where you might fit on the continuum of gender.
I have used this test a lot in my personal life, with friends, clients, and in the workplace. It helps people understand how they perceive the world and they express themselves.
My tets have consistently shown much more feminine like expression and personality, so it is part of who I am and not just something "I like".
its much deeper an precious for me.
I have met and appreciate an important part of myself. What better gift?
Monica
That's easy. They are in denial that they are a cross dresser. "Cross dresser" is a label associated with shame, freakishness, and perversion. Who would want to be that? Simple denial.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
i thought and thought about this a lot before. all i can come up with it just feels right to dress up and look like a girl
But Amber, we are not women, we are projecting as a woman or something feminine. I agree, no one wants the crap you mentioned but being a cross dresser is really about being the "idealized" woman. That why we tend to over dress (wearing a dress when the typical woman would wear pants), and are as overtly feminine as possible. It's not real life but a cross dressers version for a time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambergold43
Yep I totally agree. I agree it's all about the illusion, the temporary assuming of a different gender role... the moving from one social status (a man) to another (a woman). That's why I think the appeal of Crossdressing, if not just for the fun of it (which I know too well), is better explained not in terms of expressing some sort of "inner woman," but of the relief of not having to "be a man" or act masculine for a while.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenniferathome
Since gender performance is judged, accepted or denied by society, then the above can only be accomplished by creating the most feminine "character" possible. In order to shrug off the demands of masculinity, there is a need to be as believable ("passable") as possible, not only to ourselves but to our society and culture which ultimately judges who and/or what is feminine and what is not.
I mistakenly ran across a hunting channel (direct tv 605) where two guys hiding in a camouflaged box, dressed from head to toe in camouflaged gear,
holding camouflaged colored guns and whispering in some chilly woods, totally ambushed some unsuspecting dear as it walked into the open. And after
the animal was down, stood over it in total excitement, their voices quivering. Does the mind print out incorrect or false accounts of what is happyness?
I think your asking an inquisitive question but looking for a philosophical answer. An answer nor more (or less) miscreant that finding joy in bringing down
a dear or plowing an airplane into a large office building or collecting coins. Some things, crossdressing included, are those divinely natural phenomenon
experienced humanly as the fulfillment of spiritual law. Call it a miricle if you want to, but here in Detroit, I call it having one hell of a good time...dana
i love you reine/
Sorry to keep it oh so simple but it is a pleasure. Yes, I am that shallow :)
Its not really the clothes by themselves that provide the satisfaction for crossdressing.
I can't speak from some journal or somebody else, only for myself; but I think CDing provides a bit of a sexual rush. Over the years this sexual rush has existed but to a lesser degree at times. It is supplanted by a need to improve one's appearance and emulation of an attractive woman.
So the reward that you are asking about is a bit of that sexual rush, but also the satisfaction of providing a credible emulation of a woman.
I think most of the reasons have to do with the admittedly nebulous "feeling comfortable in one's own skin" concept. That's enough for me.
I would have thought that you had grasped that by now, Reine. Kind of a surprising question, as you always seemed to have pretty much understood what's going on with us here.
Carol
I think there could be more than a few factors on why at least I started and still dress. First I would say curiosity may have started the journey. Next I would go with jealousy, " Why can't I wear those clothes?". Which leads into selfishness " I'm going to wear the clothes anyways( most of the time not our clothes but a relative)". With each step along the way there was an adrenaline packed rush trying on these clothes. Which released all the chemicals in the brain associated with pleasure. I believe it becomes a little addicting. As I got older the less the rush but the need was still just as strong.
I agree with it is not that the clothes feel better but that the are indeed women's clothes. I have had silk boxers and pajama pants but the just don't do it for me. Now put a little lace and sell them in the women's section and all of the sudden they do it for me. I think the taboo aspect has a lot to do with it. I can wear my levi jeans and they just don't give as big as a thrill as when I put on a pair of women's levi jeans. They look about the same feel the same but in my mind they are not.
Hi, Reine! Excellent question, one I've often pondered. Like you, I'm somewhat dissatisfied with explanations such as "I like the clothing", or "It's a stress reliever."
"I like the clothing (because of the colors, texture, etc.)" doesn't explain why someone likes them. The vast majority of men in this world don't like women's clothes, would be disgusted by the idea of putting them on. So what makes CDers different? Where does that liking come from?
As for stress relievers, most men in this world would never dream of putting on women's clothing to relieve stress. There are so many other stress relievers: you can get drunk, run a few miles, go the ball game, watch a good film, etc. So what makes some men turn to women's clothing?
Or a statement like this:
This doesn't explain why a guy might find putting on women's clothing a turn-on in the first place. Most men wouldn't find it such.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildaboutheels
So I, too, am dissatisfied with these explanations because I don't feel they go deep enough. Here's my current working theory:
My dad's family is/was a musical one. I know of five people in his family who were quite gifted. My sister, however, would only have qualified as competent at the piano until she eventually gave it up. My dad and I both tried playing instruments for a while until we gave them up for lack of any real talent. My son enjoys music tremendously, though he's never even considered trying to play any himself.
In other words, my dad's family got bitten by the "music bug", but we got bitten to varying degrees. I believe that TGism is like that: you can get bitten by the "TG bug", but some people get bitten worse than others.
We all know the degrees of TGism: you have those who transition, those who live full-time in their preferred gender without transitioning, those who live a great deal of time in their preferred gender but will revert to their role assigned at birth when necessary, those who get out and about often enough in their preferred gender but live primarily in their role assigned at birth, those who dress in private for varying amounts of time, and so on.
What I've learned from this forum, however, is that there is a big divide between MTF's who identify as female (at least to a certain extent) and those who identify as male. All of us feel an attraction to things female. That's the common bond among us. But whereas some feel so strong an attraction as to wish to transition, in others the attraction is relatively weak--so weak that they still identify as men. From what I've seen on this forum, I think we might use this as a tentative definition of a CDer: one who dresses as a woman, but identifies as male. (This definition might have to be tweaked a bit, but I think perhaps in the main it will hold good.)
So in order to explain CDers, you have to explain transpeople in general, and scientific research is taking some steps in that direction these days. But when a cause (or causes) is/are identified, a remaining task will be to explain why trans tendencies are more pronounced in some people than in others. I'm not sure that will be easy. How do you explain why one member of a musical family has (sadly) so much less talent than others?
I'd be interested to know if you have any evidence to support this assertion. I personally would be extremely surprised if this were true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildaboutheels
This is part of your "visual theory" of man/CDing, which also leads you to claim that there aren't any blind CDers, which, besides being rather cruel, is also unsupported by any evidence, as far as I know.
That's because those of us who dress more modestly don't post photos. I don't wear granny dresses myself, but I do tend to wear fairly long skirts and flats. My clothes aren't just clothes: they're part of me and my life. Just like my bathrobe and decidedly un-sexy nightie and slacks I wear on a walk: who's interested?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildaboutheels
Best wishes, Annabelle
You make a pretty compelling argument, BUT... I'll pay the bills when dressed, I'll have business calls when dressed, basically, my male obligations exist and I see them even when I am dressed. That does not obviate your position but I think it shows that we all have some different underlying reasons or the same combination of reasons at differing percentages.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambergold43
To Reine's original submission: it's not because the clothes are nicer.
I've never accepted the premises that a man would dress up entirely en femme, from wig and makeup down to hosiery and heels and everything in between, because he likes the feel, color choices, styles of women's clothing. The ongoing non acceptance by family and society, potential loss of job, basically everything a man wants in his life is inherent to cross dressing. Although I have accepted myself I still will affirm life would have been in the past and will be easier in the future, if I was not a cross dresser.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
Do I think the clothes women wear are nicer, sexier, etc, than men's clothing? Yes and No! When I was working I always did my best to present myself as a well dressed and groomed man. Dressed as a woman I try to do the same. Women's undergarments, especially slips, are sexier than anything a man can find available in men's wear. My wife just shook her head when she found one of my red bras. Try to explain to yourself or your wife that you like wearing a bra because you like the feel of women's clothing. Pure BS in my opinion. I know some have disagreed with my affirmation that I consider wearing panties only as a fetish and not true cross dressing. Trying to emulate a woman by just wearing panties? To me it does not compute!
I think saying as a cross dresser I just like the feel or look of the clothing is some sort of self denial. Now, I do not really have a clue why I like to emulate women. I never was 'feminized' by an older sister or cousin or aunt or my mother. I have no excuse. I have no reason. I don't know why.
Years ago my wife did buy me men's underpants and lounging pants in sensuous fabrics. It is not work. It's not the same as women's clothing. She bought a length of lingerie fabric to rub over my body in bed in lieu of a nylon gown. It did not work. It wasn't the same.
I just like appearing as a woman. Why? I suspect to escape the world of a man. No, I would not really want to bear and rear children. I would not want to be paid less than a man for equal work. Yada, yada, yada. When a woman says she would have like to be a man in a man's world, she really is not talking about taking the garbage out, mowing the lawn, crawling under the house to defrost the pipes, shovel snow, etc.
there is something to this, but in my view it points to something deeper (as ReineD suggests). Female clothes are different in terms of intention than men's clothes, and Frédérique is completely right to point that out. Women's clothes celebrate the wearer's form, while men's clothes don't ... more than don't ... one might say the actively go in the opposite direction except in very rare edge cases.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frédérique
Brains are complicated things ... we live in a world of symbols, in fact symbols are at the core of human intelligence.
I can only speak from my personal experience, but I strongly suspect that my desire to emulate the appearance and mannerisms of females is linked to the symbolism of the objects involved. For instance this wonderful little black dress I'm wearing right now is designed to show off curves. I don't have too many to start with, but it certainly amplifies what few I have in a flattering way.
Feminine curves are a symbol. We humans understand them as an alias for other things commonly associated with females ... softness, empathy, nurturing, emotional awareness, sexuality, etc, etc.
So I wear these kinds of things, when I want to celebrate those aspects of my personality. Because at a real basic level I seem to tend toward those stereotypically feminine traits no matter how I'm dressed.
That's as much of an understanding of this as I've managed to muster so far anyhow ...
Shallow or deep, does it really matter?
An aspect that I think Ambergold43 hit on is that for some it is a form of escapism giving pleasure and control over the things we have no control over. I'm not sure I 100% agree with Amber about the power thing, but all the same I think there is something to it for some.
The biggest thing I have learned from reading the different threads of discussion and support on this site is that there are as many different reasons, deep or shallow, as there are people here.
So, I do not think your questions can be answered to your satisfaction, ReineD.
Starts a topic the never responds not sure why the op'er posted it.
Seems she has a problem taking an answer at face value for what it is.
No one answer is the same for everyone.
I think the deal is as the expression goes "your mileage may vary".Quote:
Originally Posted by Tracii G
No one's reason or corresponding resultant satisfaction for dressing is the same. Yet it is always interesting to discuss and I know for me the original reason I came on here.
The deep psychological reason...
I identified with my mom more than any male figure and wanted to be like her. Not having a dad probably is part of it but I'm not really sure about that one. Freud thinks we need to be rejected by our mom's or better put, have our dad take mom away from us in order to identify with the aggressor and want his characteristics. I never knew this reality. In fact, half of the men in my life weren't trustworthy. The others were well meaning but not interesting as role models.
I knew I was CD at 3 years-old too and had already tried on mom's clothes when I was learning to talk. That was discouraged but not punished. It was never encouraged.
An even simpler explanation is that to me, women have it better in everything--they get to express their gender without reprisal, they get to be emotional without judgement, they are pampered and cared for, they are into dialog instead of competition (typically), they get to be taken sexually, their sexuality is more holistic than focused, they are softer. The list goes on and on.
OK, now the real reason: Men are caught up in maintaining balance (X vs Y) all the time and it's wearying to me. Women don't have to deal with any of that because they have a double portion of X. Their gender life is way simpler. It's ironic because people say that women are complex but I don't experience it that way. They are simply more nuanced. Men are boring to me generally on every level because their focus is too narrow.
I always appreciate Reine's thoughts and experience. Annabelle also always has given deep thought to issues. I also agree with Ambergold43. Many don't want to look deeply into why. They enjoy it and don't want to overanalyze themseleves. But others do and this forum is a place where people can offer their thoughts to see who has good arguements for or against the suggestion. It may not apply to all. I am in the group who tries to understand why I desire this and agree that it is creating, in our own minds, the transition to a state where inner aspects we are labelling feminine can be expressed, when dressed as men, we are coerced to not display. This allowance of our natural state puts us into a better internal enjoyment of life. You can call it relieving stress ( I do), but continuing to do normal male-job chores when dressed still is less stressful as the mind does not accept all the burdens despite the body managing them. I don't think we need mirrors or cameras, but the direct sight and sensations is part of it. And yes, early in the path of most (but not all) CDers is the sexual release but many move past that. I do wonder what other forms of activity might allow this same release - does alcohol do the same or does it not last as long as CDing? Does spending time with friends do the same? Hobbies? From the forum, it does not appear to be the same, but we are the select ones who it does not work for - the ones who it does work for would not be here much. THere is no answer for everyone, but worthwhile to let each have their polite say.