Don't Be One

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Originally Posted by JackieInPA

I think a big problem here is the fact that women can NOW wear pants/shorts/skirts whatever they want, but many people who make this argument fail to realize that women had to FIGHT for the ability to do so without social stigma, like we are doing now. Their battle just came earlier in history. Most societies have had 60or 70 years to come to terms with women not being forced to wear nothing but skirts/dresses. People now see the fruits of their labor but have forgotten that labor. Just in the last century have women fought their way up the societal ladder from being thought of as nothing more than breeders and servants to men, and actually still have some ways to go.

Part of what we need to do is not to tear women down...but to build them up. We need to truly as a society embrace the concept that men and women are equals. Until this happens men doing anything 'womanly' will be looked at as demeaning themselves, and worthy of ridicule.

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That last line speaks volumes!! Well put!
Before you take aim at me let me explain where I'm at. I'm not in a position to lead this battle. I go out dressed and get my wig atyled. I shop enmale and enfemme for clothes but I'm not looking to make the news, quite the contrary. The reasons are mine and no one here knows them well enough to judge them.
I agree that this is the ultimate underlying problem. Women had a huge struggle to have society accept them wearing pants but I think the difference was that society at the time could appreciate the motivation. I think most of society hasn't or can't see the motivation yet so that first needs to change. Not an easy thing when society is currently focused on encouraging/accepting females in more amd more traditionally male roles. It is kind of tough to fight for and gain acceptance of wearing pantyhose, when both those who can and those who can't generally don't want to.
To the OP, I appreciate you and your mate putting yourselves out there to the degree you feel comfortable and that is the best any of us can do, to help make the change we generally want. Some can scream from the mountain top, others can meerly whisper, and some need to stay quiet. The pace of change may be agonizingly slow but as another post mentioned the younger generation now routinely have 2 ears pierced, get eyebrow waxing, chest wax and wear skinny jeans. I doubt I'll be around when we hit paydirt but it is improving, thanks to all who help!

Ok this topic is very intresting some of the post are so long tho , apparently you've struck a nerve , I am a crossdresser and I live in Alabama , my wife ( which knows I'm a crossdresser and accepts me ) wears jeans and tshirts all the time , I don't feel it makes her a crossdresser in my opinion that's just a silly point of view. I do know even here in Alabama if you shop some where besides Walmart the mens department has some really nice clothes. I guess I just like to look and feel good about myself whether I'm wearing mens or women's clothes , I do have to admit girls jeans fit me better than mens but that's just my body type. I will admit that instead of guys whining about there clothing choices they should show clothing manufacturers that there is a demand for a change and have the balls to go out and by the stuff not just get on here and whin. I'm not to a point yet to go out dressed as a female so I've begain to buy more more male clothes that fit my inner feelings more. I love purple shirts I think that color looks good on me , my wife just recently bought my a black peacoat and I live it , yes I have taken some snide comments from some of my friends about my wardrobe change but that's thier issue not mine
Just my 2 cents for what it's worth.

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Originally Posted by Shananigans

And, with that I also pose the challenge that you don't be one...don't be That CD...*insert visual of angry CD in a skirt pointing at a confused GG in jeans and telling her that you are one and the same* Did it really move you toward what you want? Or, were you just guilty of being one?

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Well, I never pay any attention to women wearing men’s clothes, or female clothes based on a male prototype. I mean, let’s be practical! I’m contained in my own little world, happy to a fault, confident in the fact that I don’t have to engage in any sartorial arguments with the other gender. In any event, I’m not out there, on the front line, seeking conflict for its own sake – that would only deflate my enjoyment of CD’ing and make me hate my beloved “self.” I can assure you I won’t be one of them – I’d much rather mind my own business…
:straightface:

You are really up to your shenanigans this time Shananigans.

Too many questions and analysis for someone with the attention span of a clothesline.

Women CD'ing for me is a Female to Male transsexual, or someone of that ilk.

I am using the F to M as an illustration only.

They do have a harder road to go and need our support.

If you talk about a Female CD'er you are not talking about women wearing a pair of trousers.

I can wear women jeans and not get noticed.

If I wear a skirt I do leave myself open to ridicule because it is not considered the norm YET!

Frédérique,
I just read your post, I think we were both composing at the same time.
Well I am pinhead no 1 today.

Paying attention to women in mens clothes,
they wear them better than men do.
For a man to wear a dress he has to look at least presentable.
Some women whether for a joke or whatever can look drop dead gorgeous in mens clothes.
There is the boiler suit brigade that I do not care for.

Fashion.

At the end of the day that is what this, Thesis that Shannan has written, is really about...even if the topic has been derailed by the fact that CD's use excuses as to why they dont have Femme styles within their Male wardrobe.

I agree with everything Shannan has said here. Aside from the statement that there aren't femme or androgynous fashions available to men in their "department"
The reason i dont agree with it is because, i have a closet full of androgynous attire.

Skinny jeans(like 10 pairs)...fitted shirts....racer back Tees...Tight fitted shirts (we have a joke here in my family..."Donni likes his Baby Gap T-shirts)...Converse Black on black Chucks....Fitted button ups......Cardigans....Nomad Scarves

And dont get me started on how to layer with mens fashion.....You can take simple wardrobe items you probably already own and make something awesome happen.....

If your wondering how to find all this "femme" stuff in the stores...Open your eyes....its there, its just hard to see it with all the bad fashion choices your bombarded with when walking into the mens department.

I think that the main reason that CD's want to play the blame game is that they are just unhappy with their male attire. I see MtF threads that show their femme selves dressed and presented awesome and then their guy photos look like they have lost hope in life. I have never understood why CD's dont take care to present themselves as well dressed or fashionable men in their daily lives....but yet they go through so much effort for their femme selves....

The fashion industry is changing with the trends that are already here... I wanted to post a few pics from this years Mens fashion trends that are on the rise.

This shirt is fitted and has a slimming line on the sides of the torso that mimic boning and has a 3/4 sleeve. Not to mention the fabric is glimmering satin
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This hoodie is also 3/4 sleeve and has really cool cowl neck design
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How about this jacket! This style is fitted and looks incredibly like the Ladies cut leather jackets from the 80's
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How about these jeans....I love them!
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Shoes and boy capris....
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So if your unhappy with your male attire then change it, but dont blame the women in the world for your poor fashion choices or the inability to make your "everyday look" feel less "Drab".

Many here would rather blame society than themselves...or in this case the "GG's In Jeans"

Great post Shan,

-Donni-

PS

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I guess I just like to look and feel good about myself whether I'm wearing mens or women's clothes , I do have to admit girls jeans fit me better than mens but that's just my body type. I will admit that instead of guys whining about there clothing choices they should show clothing manufacturers that there is a demand for a change and have the balls to go out and by the stuff not just get on here and whin.

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SEE! Ms. Nikki Rich has the right idea! Props and high fives! Inspiring to see other CD's making active and positive choices! GJ

Nice post and many good points to think on

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Originally Posted by DonniDarkness

Fashion.

At the end of the day that is what this, Thesis that Shannan has written, is really about...even if the topic has been derailed by the fact that CD's use excuses as to why they dont have Femme styles within their Male wardrobe.

I agree with everything Shannan has said here. Aside from the statement that there aren't femme or androgynous fashions available to men in their "department"
The reason i dont agree with it is because, i have a closet full of androgynous attire.

And dont get me started on how to layer with mens fashion.....You can take simple wardrobe items you probably already own and make something awesome happen.....

If your wondering how to find all this "femme" stuff in the stores...Open your eyes....its there, its just hard to see

So if your unhappy with your male attire then change it, but dont blame the women in the world for your poor fashion choices or the inability to make your "everyday look" feel less "Drab".

Many here would rather blame society than themselves...or in this case the "GG's In Jeans"

Great post Shan,

-Donni-

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Wow Donni, as I have been reading through this thread I couldn't help but think very much what you have said. I think men's fashion has taken a more feminine look... If you look. I think you can find many options. You have shown nice examples. In order to foster it we have to buy! They will only make what sells. I like to wear pastel shirts and T's and more feminine cuts, they are in style.

Thanks for the post Shananigans!

Thanks Inge.

I like pastel shirts too. I was just reminded that last week my wifes brother came over to visit, hes a hunter and a country guy....he walks in our front door wearing a Bright Pink Tee with black and Magenta tribal artwork on it.... i think it was a liquor brand Tee shirt.

I commented on his shirt and said if he wanted to give it a nice home i would pimp it out for him. He declined and said "You know how many compliments from girls i get for wearing this shirt, no way im getting rid of it" We laughed and the conversation moved on.

The next day my daughter and were talking about something(cant remember what it was now) and she spouts off "Real men wear pink Dad."

Shes 11 years old.....Times are changing....and i smiled proudly at her, thanked her for the compliment and gave her a hug.

-Donni-

There have always been more fashionable men's clothes that come in a full spectrum of colors and fabrics. These styles have also looked more on the androgonious or feminine side. but the problem I see for these fashions to become more maistream are many.

1. Fashionable men's clothes like fashionable women's clothes seem to be desigen for and produced in sizes for people who are built and look like fashion models.

2. Alot of men don't care to be on the cutting edge of fashion. Most men I know don't care to spend alot on new clothes. They'll save and get a new truck or car every few years but purchash on really nice expensive jacket or shoes and wear it till it falls apart.

3. Despite the arguement for more clothing chioces. For CDer's it is about the clothing being women's clothes. Men's clothes no matter how "feminized" will not be that appealing.

Stores will only put on the shelves what the majority of men will buy. CDer's and Fashionalbe males are a niche market nothing wrong with being a niche.

Something people actually don't realize that I just thought of...

The most literal definition of "crossdressing" is a person of one sex (going with between the legs here) wearing clothing made with the intent that it will be worn by a person of the other sex (once again, going with the between the legs here). A guy just wearing a dress or his girlfriends jacket as a joke has crossdressed. Same with a girl who wears pants sold in the men's department. I remember being at school and seeing a girl with a pair of tighty whities hanging out of the waistband of her jeans. Was she crossdressing? By the simplest definition, yes. She was wearing a pair of male underwear. Now, American Appearal designs feminine cut underwear that looks like men's briefs, and even sales their men's brief in both sections of their website. Does that mean that a girl wearing that is crossdressing? That's where the gray area comes into play. Something that is actually a men's shirt or pant or underwear that the manufacturer and stores market as unisex can be argued as not crossdressing and result in as many hung juries as you can assemble.

According to this page (http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-boyfriend-jeans.htm) the boyfriend jeans are women's jeans that are just made a bit looser than typical loose fitting women's jeans and sometimes a bit longer than most women's jeans. They aren't just smaller sized men's jeans. I did hear about there being "ex-girlfriend jeans" but this site (http://www.thefrisky.com/2011-02-09/...friends-jeans/) call them a blow to masculinity. That article was only written a couple years ago...it shows that there still are people who think a guy who wants to do something that is typically girly (skinny jeans in this case) is seen as something that is not desirable.

I dont see GG's as crossdressing because they are wearing pants of any kind, I am old enough to remember when women were scorned for not wearing a dress or skirts.
The GG's of that era just wore what they wanted and finally it has become mainstream for GG's to wear what they want to wear. Personally I like seeing curvy women in pants, it is sexy just the same as they are when wearing a dress.
As I have said before I dont consider GG's as crossdressers. as for me I like to wear feminine clothing such as dresses or skirts, and yes I do consider myself as a crossdresser. I came out to the world 7 yrs ago, and since then life for me has changed for the better, and I believe that society has been more accepting of crossdressing males, I have been in small towns wearing a dress, and so far everybody has been very accepting. However those same peaple are not as accepting if a crossdressing male is wearing ****ty clothes.
I do agree with Shananagans and others on this topic, that we need to stop whining and pointing fingers of shame at GG's because they are not wearing a dress.
We as crossdressing males need to buck up with courage and go out dressed in dresses or skirts of our choosing out in public, and have confidence, peaple will respond positively to you. I am living proof that you can go out in society crossdressed without any repercussion.
As for making mens clothes more feminine I am not too hip on that idea, I personally prefer that feminine clothing and masculine clothing styles be separate. I prefer to wear dresses, and the feminine look that goes with it, I wear a wig, makeup, and breastforms when crossdressed because I want to be accepted as a woman when wearing a dress. I never go out crossressed without a wig, makup, and breastfoms, because I dont want to be seen as just a man in a dress. I dont pass 100% but how I carry myself when crossdressed goes along way in helping me to blend in and be treated with respect by those peaple I encounter when out and about. I find that GG's show me great respect when I am crossdressed, so we need to show them respect also. We need to show respect if we want it in return.
And to the GG's out there, I have nothing but admiration for you no matter what you are wearing.

Two additional points:

In the 1970s young (heterosexual) men like me wore high heeled shoes. They were not feminine,. but had heels of two inches or more - and a few more extreme guys actually wore Bowie type platforms.

I thoroughly enjoy Shenanigans' posts and am glad she is a contributor to this Forum. The more literate members should not complain about poor grammar or spelling, but likewise there should be no criticism of those who develop a longer story. There is room for all of us here - no need for words like 'pinheads'. Let's all get on, people.Tolerance in writing styles as well as clothing styles.

Yeah, and least she isn't posting something that's already been posted that week, seventeen times, in five languages (you get the point).

I have never thought that women were cding and still do not .I wear womens clothing because it's just that .If there was more femine mens clothing i would still go right to the womens department and buy what i liked :).I like to wear womens clothing not girly mens clothes (good post !)

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In the 1970s young men like me wore high heeled shoes.

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Attachment 198564Attachment 198566Attachment 198565Attachment 198567

You can still buy them...Brand new.

ReluctantDebutant, i borrowed this series of points. Please dont take this as me picking your post apart. It was just more concise than some of the other responses.

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1. Fashionable men's clothes like fashionable women's clothes seem to be desigen for and produced in sizes for people who are built and look like fashion models.

Anyone can be fashionable, regardless of size, gender, or age

2. Alot of men don't care to be on the cutting edge of fashion. Most men I know don't care to spend alot on new clothes. They'll save and get a new truck or car every few years but purchash on really nice expensive jacket or shoes and wear it till it falls apart.

But we are talking about a crossdressers' fashion choices. We are not most men.

3. Despite the arguement for more clothing chioces. For CDer's it is about the clothing being women's clothes. Men's clothes no matter how "feminized" will not be that appealing.

I understand and i have seen this response many times in this forum. The reason i bring up Mens fashion is because it is something we as individuals have control of. However we do not have control over what other people in the world wear on a daily basis. Instead of whining about what we cant do, i would say challenge yourself with what you CAN do....Make a statement about yourself that doesnt tear down the actions of others.

Womens jeans are designed for women...they have styles for men that are similar...
And thats the point, If you want to Crossdress then by all means do so. Dont lay blame or whine about what you cant do.

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-Donni-

I have no wish for mens clothes to be more feminine. I enjoy dressing as a woman. If it were accepted for men to wear feminine clothes it would become the norm as I am sure most men and women feel about the clothes they wear every day going to work washing the car picking up the kids etc. The sparkle would be gone.

I do not in any way blame GGs for this situation. I believe that CDers find it hard to understand why a GG would prefer to wear trousers, sweat shirt and trainers rather than skirt, blouse and high heels that were designed to compliment the beautiful figure of a woman.

I do partly blame CDers who are completely in the closet. The ones who buy their clothes online or go to a shop and make out they are buying for a GG as a present or a GG that goes out and buy their clothes for them. This causes a misrepresentation of who requires what to the market place.

Sorry if this is a bit garbled. This is the 4th time today I've tried to write my reply to Shannigan's in depth post but have always been interupted and had to start again.

Maria

Shanagans, the big problem isn't what we're 'allowed' to wear, but that so many crossdressers think that they feel they have the right to insist that other people (most often, we want WOMEN) to LIKE it and be attracted to us that way. And that isn't something that you can legislate.
If I can give a really good analogy, in america fat women have been insisting that 'real women have curves' when what they mean is 'real women are fat', and that all men should just accept it and learn to like it. Not gonna happen. You can't change what turns someone on anymore than you can change what turns them off. And if a woman is turned off by a guy who dresses in girl attire, there's no way you're going to make that guy 'hot' to her (other than perhaps having the guy become a billionaire, which might make her willing to overlook the crossdressing and 'close her eyes and do it for king and country' as they used to say). If you start having 95% of men dress and act like girls, then most women are going to be interested in 5% of the men who don't. Sure, some will 'settle', when they realize no other men are available, but you still can't force them to like it.

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Originally Posted by sometimes_miss

If I can give a really good analogy, in america fat women have been insisting that 'real women have curves' when what they mean is 'real women are fat'

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Not even a semi-fair analogy and very rude. But you do prove that your prejudices do set a tone. I think you have proven a part of the OPs point. CDs don't think when they say things and they make broad poorly based arguments

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Originally Posted by Shananigans

For example, Chic Fil A... Oh, wait, even the big Bible thumping homophobes will still gladly serve you your overpriced chicken sandwich with a smile. I wasn't the least bit bothered by the owner saying he didn't support gay marriage...he's a businessman and not really much of an authority on morality/any valid opinion. As long as he doesn't slap a sign on the door that says No Homos allowed, I'll eat his chicken and call him backwards. And, he'll gladly take my big, gay money.

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Just have to interject here. This is the version of the story that was being spun by the defenders of Chik-Fil-A on a freedom of speech argument and
had it been the only issue involved, I'd have agreed with it too. But the case wasn't really what he said, but rather that it gave equal rights group an opportunity to shine a light on the fact that CFA as a company had a "charity" wing that was donating company profits to organizations that were actively lobbying top ban gay marriages. He's allowed to think how he wants, and he's also allowed to do whatever he wants with his own personal profits that come from his business as a private citizen. But CFA was, as a company, taking your big gay money, and donating it to anti-gay groups. That's more than a businessman running his dumb mouth, and considering that they actually stopped doing it, the brouhaha was actually effective. As was the similar incident with Target a few years back, in fact Target has reversed their position so far that they're now advocates for equality.

To get back to the real subject at hand though, the fundamental problem whenever someone is being one, to borrow your phrase, is that they're not actually making a proper comparison. I constantly get comments whenever I post pictures of myself as a man in a skirt or dress about how I'm only going halfway or how I'm not finishing the look, because I don't try to pass. If the end game is to pass or to be convincing as a woman, then you're not simply expanding your wardrobe, you're not doing the same thing as a woman putting on jeans.

Dressing as a woman in women's clothes is great if that's who you are and what you want to be doing. But if you're actually of the mindset that men should have the same freedom to dress in a broader range of clothes like women do, then when you "pass" you're actively working against your own self-stated position. You're saying, "I have to dress like a woman to wear these things because they are only for women."

Also, Shan, I don't think you're being one for returning shoes that make your feet look big. Yes, it's not the shoe's fault because they are inanimate objects and your feet are the size they are, but clothes can draw attention or accentuate things, and so it's not irrational to feel a particular style of shoe is unflattering where others are not. That's not being one, that's coming to terms with limits of your own shape.

Hey Shan!

I'm only replying to this because it was your OP! Miss you and hope that you and CamilleLeon are doing fine and having fun!

I wear women's clothes because I want to "be" one, at least to the greatest extent I can. As others have said, GG's wearing pants are generally not wearing them because they want to be men.

The one thing I DO lament is the abysmal lack of colors that men can wear! I looking at my male wardrobe in the morning and get depressed. Green. gray, navy blue, and black suits. Hey, I can wear a colorful tie though! :sad:

Debby

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Originally Posted by JiveTurkeyOnRye

Dressing as a woman in women's clothes is great if that's who you are and what you want to be doing. But if you're actually of the mindset that men should have the same freedom to dress in a broader range of clothes like women do, then when you "pass" you're actively working against your own self-stated position. You're saying, "I have to dress like a woman to wear these things because they are only for women."

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Amen!! Thank you Jive for stating this fact. Most of the folks on this site believe that they need to completely dress as a woman to wear women's clothing and many also believe that the need to "pass". When women wear men's clothing they are doing it as women and not attempting to pass as a man. For example the Tomboy look. I believe that folks like myself and Jive that incorporate femme items into our otherwise male presentation have a much better chance of acceptance than a person that attempts to pass as a woman. If more men start incorporate women's clothing/items into their everyday look as feminine men, then crossdressing will be more accepted. On the other hand, crossdressers that attempt to pass as women and don't pass will have a much more difficult time because they are more shunned by society. Therefore the odds are in favor of the male the incorporates feminine items and still presents as a male (opposite of a Tomboy), and the crossdresser that completely passes because everyone believes that she is a GG.

There are women who will dress in a very "butch" manner (short hair, very minimal if non-existent makeup, extremely masculine, if not actual men's clothing, and will probably wear sports bras and such to make their boobs look smaller, if they don't already have smaller boobs) who get criticized. Heck, part of the reason why someone like an Ellen DeGeneres type doesn't face much public criticism on her looks is that she "owns" the look. Also, it's part of the women who came before her who helped pave the road she walks. Also, she's very successful in her career and keeps a level head about her so that it is hard to criticize her without seeming like a jealous jerk.

Now, take the opposite approach that one Kanye West tried in December of last year, and Axl Rose from the early 90s, both are known for being very eccentric and not really known for being the most level headed off stage, so despite their successes, people find it easy to criticize them for wearing skirts, cause it's just "another crazy thing they did." If a person like a Regis Philbin type or a Simon Cowell or Ryan Seacrest type wore skirts all the time on stage then perhaps more men would accept them, cause level headed successful men who are pretty well known for having pretty good judgment about things would be a voice of reason speaking for the male skirt wearing, as opposed to a person who is not really known for being of sound mind.

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Originally Posted by Debglam

Hey Shan!

I'm only replying to this because it was your OP! Miss you and hope that you and CamilleLeon are doing fine and having fun!

I wear women's clothes because I want to "be" one, at least to the greatest extent I can. As others have said, GG's wearing pants are generally not wearing them because they want to be men.

The one thing I DO lament is the abysmal lack of colors that men can wear! I looking at my male wardrobe in the morning and get depressed. Green. gray, navy blue, and black suits. Hey, I can wear a colorful tie though! :sad:

Debby

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Something that doesn't come up here is that there is always the tailored suit in any color one chooses, in any material one chooses. I recently watched a Hindi film and one character was wearing what appeared to be a suit of black satin. I think that guys here wouldn't be caught dead wearing black satin.
female clothing isn't always feminine looking, and if men want to feminize their guywear, they can add bling, lace or whatever. That isn't going to happen either.
The other thing that isn't often mentioned is that for the most part women wear just about the same drab colors that men do. I've recently checked and blue (jeans) black pants and shoes, lots of grays, some browns, black leggings (recently saw some wide back and white striped ones), some green and saw for the first time a woman in red cords. Those colors are inexpensive, abundant and common.

This is such a good read :)

My only thoughts is that if we wish to change the world views on CD'rs, we all need to come out of the closet and embrace the streets!