Have you CONVINCED yourself that you’re a woman?

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Originally Posted by ReineD

I think both are true. Some people know they are TS (women) either early on or later, and they never waiver from this. The gender dysphoria is so pronounced that they hate having a man's body, they hate conforming to a man's gender role, and they hate presenting as a man. What's more, they cannot live as a man.

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I pretty much agree with all of ReineD's post and this in particular. I hate my male body and always did even as a child when I no sense of why I did. I thought I was ugly. The photos of the time say otherwise.

In reference to the original premise of the thread. I think I see where you can convince yourself that you're a woman when in fact you are simply a crossdresser. The irony for me is that I spent years convincing myself I was a crossdresser when I was really transgender. As part of that I pursued a quixotic career dream and other displacement activities. Looking back now it was rather comic and it must be said sad.

But in terms of convincing yourself of being something you're not. Well the example is there in the entertainment industry. Many of the better known actors are method actors. They become the person they play. Daniel Day Lewis famously so. I think in many ways one of the catalysts of my own self realisation came when I began to work as an Extra and small acting roles on TV and movies. I found I was a natural, after all I was pretending to be a man all my life. But it was soon obvious that you could easily convince yourself you're the person you play. Dashing through a forest at night while been shot at was terrifying even though it wasn't real. I became angry at a lawyer who was cross examining me. It became real even in the midst of all the paraphernalia of movie sets.

But it was all illusory because I actually don't know what it's like to be shot at or have a lawyer cross examine me. I think I do but I don't and I do think many actors believe they have more of an insight into the lives of the people they play than they do in reality.

So I can see how a CD can take it to the point that they begin to believe they are in fact TG or actually female. There have been cases of people going all the way to transition and then regretting it. They convince themselves to the point where reality and imagination are hard to tell apart. This isn't just the case with CDs. It's there in the whole of society. People turning up on TV talent shows CONVINCED they can sing.

We all do it in one form or another in our lives. Maybe it's the human condition. How we cope with our lives. My life began to fall apart when I lost a lot of convictions and illusions about myself. When I faced into the reality of my TG state. I ended up like PaulaQ, in despair and suicidal. I actually got married as a way of avoiding it and convincing myself I wasn't really TG. Didn't work though.

Reality has a way of destroying conviction.

Until you've been born an actual female, no one here can understand the reality of our existence. No one. You can only assume the feelings you have are feminine but no genetic male will ever really know for sure. This fact alone means even the TS must have had a moment, even a small one, where they've needed to convince themselves that they are female. For how would any male ever really know? Seriously, how??

If you can do this, in my mind it doesn't matter where it comes from. If you can convince yourself you're a woman - convince yourself it's not just about pretty clothes or sex appeal or an easier life or whatever and truly BE one of us, then more power to you. My guess is you'd fast realize that aside from the hormones, we're no different than you are now. We're just humans with boobs and a better wardrobe. Do we FEEL like women? I'd bet most GGs, like me, wouldn't even know what that meant.

Either way, Fredrique asks a good question and each time I read a good question, I hope it makes people think. The less who suffer and struggle here (wives included) the better. :)

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Originally Posted by TheMissus

Either way, Fredrique asks a good question and each time I read a good question, I hope it makes people think.

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I appreciate that! :)

Here’s another “good” question (I hope): How many MtF crossdressers here BELIEVE they are women? :thinking:

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Originally Posted by TheMissus

. My guess is you'd fast realize that aside from the hormones, we're no different than you are now. We're just humans with boobs and a better wardrobe. Do we FEEL like women? I'd bet most GGs, like me, wouldn't even know what that meant.

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A glass of chocolate milk and a bowl of chocolate ice cream share many of the same ingredients, in fact they are mostly the same. Yet the experience of the two is totally different, and why is that? Process and an extra couple of ingredients work magic.

A little kid who's sick doesn't usually want Daddy, she wants Mommy. There is a magic to women, and it makes me sad that many seem to lose touch with this. I don't blame you - society shoves a LOT of BS and obligations and expectations on women. To be sure, the magic of womanhood shouldn't determine every goddanged thing about your lives and destinies - which is how it's been viewed in the past, and certainly how you've been (and often still are) treated. (Maybe the word should be MISTREATED?)

But there is a magic in you as a woman, never lose that, however it manifests itself in you.

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Originally Posted by Frédérique

Here’s another “good” question (I hope): How many MtF crossdressers here BELIEVE they are women? :thinking:

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If you believe you are a woman you're not a crossdresser. You may wear women's clothes but that's only a reflection of your inner self. You are TS. Conventionally most men who cross dress are just that men who cross dress for all kinds of reasons.

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Originally Posted by TheMissus

Until you've been born an actual female, no one here can understand the reality of our existence. No one. You can only assume the feelings you have are feminine but no genetic male will ever really know for sure. This fact alone means even the TS must have had a moment, even a small one, where they've needed to convince themselves that they are female. For how would any male ever really know? Seriously, how??

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That's exactly the problem and it often exercised my mind and I'm sure others too. How can I really be sure? I can't be TS because........and there follows a list of reasons. But in the end you can't escape it. You just know in the context of your life that you are essentially female. But this is a quite different life experience to someone born female. Imagine if you will that you had to become a man. Act like a man, dress like a man and very carefully ignore your instincts as a woman. It would be hard work indeed. I may not know what it is to be born female. But neither do I know what it is to be a man despite years of working on it.

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If you can do this, in my mind it doesn't matter where it comes from. If you can convince yourself you're a woman - convince yourself it's not just about pretty clothes or sex appeal or an easier life or whatever and truly BE one of us, then more power to you. My guess is you'd fast realize that aside from the hormones, we're no different than you are now. We're just humans with boobs and a better wardrobe. Do we FEEL like women? I'd bet most GGs, like me, wouldn't even know what that meant.

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Agreed, it's the same for most people. Most people never have to consider their sexual identity. The know what they are and have no desire or interest in anything else. But if you do have to CONVINCE yourself you're a woman then you're probably not. I spent of a lot of time convincing myself I was anything but a woman. But as the saying goes 'When you have eliminated the impossible whatever remains however improbable must be the truth.' That's just my experience though.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

I think both are true. Some people know they are TS (women) either early on or later, and they never waiver from this. The gender dysphoria is so pronounced that they hate having a man's body, they hate conforming to a man's gender role, and they hate presenting as a man. What's more, they cannot live as a man.

Others know they are TS (woman), but manage to walk a fine line for the sake of family and kids.

While others say that they are women yet they are satisfied living in a man's body for part of the time, in other words their gender dysphoria is not great enough to stop living as a man ... if they do have gender dysphoria.

But I also think that some people get such a kick out of presenting as a woman that they eventually want to be a woman (depending on their personal circumstances), and they can easily convince themselves they can be women. Perhaps some of these people stay stuck there for years and years.

Some people know that they are gender non-conforming ... they live outside the gender binary.

Let's not forget all the different definitions of "a woman". Some people think that it means dressing like one. Others mistake the euphoric feelings they get when they dress, for "feeling like a woman". Still others think that being a woman is being beautiful, and if one cannot be beautiful then it's not worth it. While TSs know who they are, they do live on the female side of the gender boundary, and being a woman is not mostly about clothes, it's not mostly about feeling euphoric, and it's not mostly about feeling sexy, and it's not all about being beautiful.

There is not one answer that fits all and really, all of this can ONLY be self-assessed and self-reported. And only the self can do this, unless a person is in denial. And the denial can go both ways.

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You mention the definition of woman, but only describe what it is not, as opposed to what it is. Most dictionaries list the primary definition as being
1. the female human being (as opposed to the male human being),
2. an adult female person
Additional meanings refer to such things as status i.e as opposed to lady, and only lastly "feminine qualities" or "womanliness"

This, then leads to the definition of female.
1. of women: relating or belonging to women or girls
2. of the sex that produces offspring: relating or belonging to the sex that produces sex cells gametes that fuse with male sex cells during sexual reproduction
3. producing seeds: describes the part of a plant that produces the female sex cells, e.g. a carpel

Looking at it from a pragmatic viewpoint, you are a woman if you meet the physical requirements. How we feel or identify has nothing to do with whether or not we actually are a woman. Perhaps, the emphasis should be on the relative degree of our inner desire, wish or need to be a woman, rather than questioning whether or not we are a woman. The simple answer is that we are not. We can live as one if we choose, even going to the extreme of transition to enable this, but it does not change the biological fact that we are male. To convince yourself that you are a woman is to defy reality.

All the talk about our inner woman, or that our gender is female, is essentially meaningless as everybody's concepts of womanhood are different and completely subjective. Most women would have difficulty explaining what it is like to be a woman. TheMissus and docrobbysherry explained this well in their replies. When we crossdress, and do so as completely as we possibly can, we are portraying a woman, not being one or becoming one. It is primarily superficial and an illusion. You are able to experience what one small aspect of a woman's life might occasionally be like; her appearance. Are you experiencing this the same way with the same emotions and feelings as a woman? How can we answer that question? Again, mariehart's reply explains this in more detail from an actor's perspective.

Looking at it this way might sound dismissive of those who have real identity issues, but it is not. In fact, the attempt to attribute all cross sexual activity as being somehow an identity issue is what tends to marginalize their concerns.

One other interesting side issue that has emerged in this thread, is who is attempting to be more convincing; those who say they are women, or those who say they are men? Marleena appears to feel that it is the latter who are attempting to convince themselves, but I would counter with the argument that it is the former as evidenced by the greater number of threads discussing how womanly various members feel, especially when dressed. These threads are accepted as being the norm, whereas the threads that deny this are always in response to those who project their opinions as being universal (i.e.the umbrella approach) or are dismissive of those who feel otherwise. I cannot recall a thread where the OP was about how manly the writer was feeling that day.

Veronica

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Originally Posted by Veronica27

One other interesting side issue that has emerged in this thread, is who is attempting to be more convincing; those who say they are women, or those who say they are men? Marleena appears to feel that it is the latter who are attempting to convince themselves, but I would counter with the argument that it is the former as evidenced by the greater number of threads discussing how womanly various members feel, especially when dressed. These threads are accepted as being the norm, whereas the threads that deny this are always in response to those who project their opinions as being universal (i.e.the umbrella approach) or are dismissive of those who feel otherwise. I cannot recall a thread where the OP was about how manly the writer was feeling that day.

Veronica

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Yes, I just put a bit of a spin on convincing. I agree the MTF's here post mostly about wanting to feel, appear, emulate, whatever, women.:)

However some feel threatened by certain threads and that's where the reversal comes into play. If supporting the LGBT comes into play for example many will distance themselves from it because the "G' means gay. Or we have the people that are questioning their sexuality threads and we see the same people reminding us they are straight. Then some others will be offended by the term "transgender" and that's where we hear the "I'm a guy" responses.

If you're here long enough you can expect the same people to reply in a certain way to those types of threads. That's all I was saying and I guess it's more about feeling mislabeled about what they believe themselves to be. I don't really care, just pointing it out.:) It might make a good thread too.

Veronica, you made some good points, but unfortunately many are wrong. Gender and sex are not the same thing. Your definitions are ok for the sex of a person but you miss the point completely on gender.

Gender is in the head, sex is below the head.

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Originally Posted by TheMissus

Until you've been born an actual female, no one here can understand the reality of our existence. No one. You can only assume the feelings you have are feminine but no genetic male will ever really know for sure. This fact alone means even the TS must have had a moment, even a small one, where they've needed to convince themselves that they are female. For how would any male ever really know? Seriously, how??

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Your right I will never know how any other person feels, or what I would have felt if I had been born with a female body and was raised as female. I'll never know.
But I do know that being a woman today feels right to me.

There was not so much a point of having to convince myself I was a woman, it was more a about letting go of trying to be a man.

It was not about the cloths or fantasies.

I am not, nor ever though of myself as being a woman. I am a man.

I am, however, transgender. Transgender being that unexplainable urge to crossdress when I was 6 (didn't do it) and again when I was 9 (did it and have been ever since).

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Originally Posted by almostalady

Veronica, you made some good points, but unfortunately many are wrong. Gender and sex are not the same thing. Your definitions are ok for the sex of a person but you miss the point completely on gender.

Gender is in the head, sex is below the head.

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I think we are on the same page, but you may have misread what I wrote. I was emphasizing that the word woman, by definition, is about the sex of the individual. No matter what is going on in our mind, that basic fact does not change. When threads such as this discuss a man either "being" or "becoming" a woman and expressing that by means of crossdressing, it is somewhat of a fallacy. I suggested that what we are experiencing is a desire, wish or need to be a woman, and not actually being a woman because of something called gender which is incapable of a finite definition. I gave my viewpoint on the difference between sex and gender in post #32 in the thread "Perhaps it is about the clothing"

Thanks for giving me an opportunity to clarify my response.

Veronica

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Originally Posted by Frédérique

I appreciate that! :)

Here’s another “good” question (I hope): How many MtF crossdressers here BELIEVE they are women? :thinking:

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sort of would make them transsexuals then wouldn't it? If they make believe they are women that is another story. But who is to say that mentally they are not women? I know there are some who think of women is a stereotypic sense, but that is how the mind works

Fact is that no one can ever feel what it is like to be anyone else. remember the line in Beetlejuice? "That is what happens when you die...THAT is what happens when they die...it is all very personal." I try and never say "I know how you feel" because I don't know how YOU feel. I can empathize, I can sympathize, I can commiserate. I can only know what I feel and what in my life brought me to this point. I can share that I can try and have people understand so they can either follow my lead or avoid my mistakes.

And as far as saying "you will never be a woman" I say Bull. You will never be FEMALE that is genetics, but you can become a "woman". That is presentation. Exactly when does a girl become a woman? I know in horses when a filly becomes a mare but it is less distinct in humans. If one cannot become a woman, what does a TS become? Go ahead...try and answer that and not be insulting.

I don't believe myself to be a female. If I did not to some degree want to make myself feel as 'womanly' as I possibly could even know how to try to feel, then I wouldn't even dress I guess.

No, but what I wouldn't give to know what it really felt like just ONCE. To have all the anatomical mechanics a girl is born with. Which is of course, impossible. But I do want to know what its like. I might not even like it but still would like to know. Alot of us might think at times this is what we really want. But once we got it, may see the grass not to be any greener on the other side. It can be a fluid feeling. Coming and going at times and stronger or less prevalent at others.

My wife will tell me sometimes you have NO IDEA what it's like, it ain't the glam and the glitz y'all think it is. You want that part of it but not the realness of it.

I am sorry. I opened this thread after work and the responses are long. My head hurts. I like the red wig or I think we need to be honest. What's the question again?

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Originally Posted by Lorileah

And as far as saying "you will never be a woman" I say Bull. You will never be FEMALE that is genetics, but you can become a "woman". That is presentation.

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Lori this is what I find confusing. Maybe it's because different people mean different things when they say "becoming a woman". I know that for a TS this means changing the male body to eventually have a female body, so "becoming" only in a physical sense, like having corrective surgery (which is actually what it is). Obviously many CDers believe that the clothes (the presentation) is what transforms a man into a woman. But to me, this is just appearance. It doesn't change gender.

My basic belief is that no one ever "becomes" a woman. MtF TSs are already born AS a woman internally, and the rest is realizing it and then taking steps to change the body to match the internal self.

When someone says they are becoming a woman, it implies they are a man. And I don't think that a person can change gender in their lifetime.

In what way did you mean "becoming a woman"?

I think I understood Lori with that one. I think anyone can 'become' a woman as gender is a fairly subjective concept so anyone can take their personal idea of 'womanhood' and become that if they wish. This might mean appearance for some while for others it's a deep feeling inside them that drives them to surgery etc. Given I can't know how they feel I have to assume what they experience is very real to them.

But Lori is also right that no one here can become female. That takes having the XX chromosome and as far as I'm aware changing this isn't possible yet. So the true 'feminine' experience, so to speak, will never be fully possible for those with the XY chromosome and this is where we're left taking each others word over what being a 'woman' means. Funny, but I'd bet women themselves know less what this means than the members here, lol.

That said, going back to the original question, I also think humans can convince themselves of anything, given enough time and motivation, and it wouldn't be unexpected that some CD could lead themselves to TS despite never having a deep need in earlier life. I don't think this is a problem unless they regret it later. But I'd also assume this scenario is rare?

I've known I was transsexual LONG before I knew what transsexual was. I didn't like playing with boys by the time I was 2. I preferred to play with girls, and we did the things girls did, until I was about 6 1/2. Then they told me I COULDN'T be a girl, I COULDN'T play with the girls anymore, and that I HAD to play with the boys. Predictably, that didn't go well, and after getting stoned (pelted with rocks ranging from golf-ball to tennis ball size) and clubbed (beat with sticks 2-3 inches in diameter), I pretty much refused to play with boys. I refused to participate at school. I could read well above my grade level, but refused to read aloud.

I still wanted to be a girl, but I also had to survive. When I was 10, by dad tried to give me the "birds & bees" talk, telling me about puberty and all the changes that would take place. To me, turning into a man was like turning into a monster, like a werewolf. My one hope was that, according to Dad, other boys had testes, and I didn't. Dad drew a picture, explaining that mine were still up inside me, like ovaries. That gave me hope!

When the testes finally dropped down, I was devastated, and everything I could to prevent them from turning me into a monster. I would take baths in water so hot it caused second degree burns in hope of "poaching" them, like hard boiled eggs. I tried crushing them with a sledge-hammer and a 2x4. I tied them in rubber bands to strangle them. I tried other things I won't even try to describe here. I'd told both my parents, a psychologist, a doctor, and my grandmother that I wanted to be a girl, that I hated being a boy and never wanted to be a man. The refused to even discuss it. My dad DID tell me that he had taken a test and was told that he was 75% female, and I told him "I bet I'm at least 90%".

Puberty hit anyway, and I was in hell. I wanted to die. I kept hoping that I could still become a girl somehow. As I started growing hair, I became more despondent. When I was 14, I was ordered to audition for the choir. As a child, I sang soprano, and hoped maybe I could sing alto. She started me at about Middle C and started working her way down. I had no trouble matching the pitches for two octaves. By the time I got to the low B, it sounded more like a bad case of gas than singing. She smiled and said "WOW, you have the most amazing voice I've ever heard in a boy your age". She meant it to be a compliment, but to me, it was like I had been sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole.

I immediately became suicidal, getting hooked up with drug users, drinking, smoking, using recreational drugs. I would use until I "blacked out", often losing track of 4-8 hours at a time. Often, I would be regaled by funny stories of the things I had done during these blackouts. Often, they were very dangerous, like insulting bikers in a biker bar, flirting with cowboys, or kissing the girl standing next to the shortest guy. Sometimes I would wake up with bruises. The only consolation was that I would be turning 16 before my other classmates, and would be among the first to drive. That was until a neurologist misdiagnosed my drug detox as epilepsy. I would eventually be the LAST to drive, when I was almost 18 years old.

My parents knew I was suicidal, but even for them, it was hard to tell how much was the drugs, how much was not being able to drive, and how much was gender dysphoria. My only hint that they knew or even thought about it was when I had red blood in my stool. Mom asked my dad "Do you think he's having a period?", and Dad said "no, that would be darker". Apparently I had HAD a few "periods" already, (blood coming out of my stools), but after a sigmoidoscopy in front of about 25 interns, they found a fissure. The did do some interesting exploring, and did mention some anomalies. Given the number of OTHER medical procedures I had endured without anesthetic, this one was almost enjoyable.

I was still transsexual, and I knew it, but I figured it was "too late". Meanwhile, two of my cousins, including one who had tried to kiss me on the lips, had killed themselves. The had gotten around the mortal sin of suicide by doing something irreversible that gave them enough time to repent and be forgiven before they lost consciousness and then died. This was beginning to look more and more attractive, and I tried harder and harder to have an "accidental overdose". A typical "party" for me, was a pint of brandy, 2 quarts of wine, 1/2 oz of pot, 2 antihistamines, and 3 10 milligram Valium (for my epilepsy). THEN I'd pop any kind of downers I could find in the pill bowl (other kids at the party would bring pills of whatever, and pour them into a big bowl).

What I didn't know is that I had a genetic trait that caused my body to be able to detox itself from almost any kind of toxic substance. The one consolation was that I DID get the release of black-outs. My antics became more and more interesting, and it became apparent to me that when Rex was really loaded, he would "go to sleep" and Debbie would come out to play.

Sometimes, as Debbie, I was a ****, flirting shamelessly with boys and girls, especially girls who were dressed the way I wanted to be dressed. Often I'd end up in the coat room with my head between someone's legs, usually female, or would have fallen asleep on my knees with my head resting on the bed. I often wondered what would happen if I went to a party dressed and got that loaded. Would I be going after guys?

I tried playing with a couple of guys, thinking maybe this would let me address my gender conflict. It back-fired. I not only did NOT enjoy myself, I got sick, and being touched down there was PAINFUL! I had many gay friends, and they knew SOMETHING was up, but they didn't know anything about transsexuals, and I had learned the hard way that telling ANYONE could start the whole cycle of beatings, harassment, and terror, all over again, so I guarded my secret like I was an undercover spy in enemy territory.

By 21, my drinking and drugs had taken their toll, and I ended up in a psychiatric ward. I went to group therapy daily for 3 months, 6 hours a day, and ended up trying to kill myself several times. Once, I was ready to do a back-flip into I-25 in front of a Semi. Had I not been wearing my brother's watch, I would probably have done it. I tried to OD a few more times. Tried walking in front of traffic a few times. Then, when my car broke down, and I had to walk 10 miles through some rough neighborhoods, I started eating pieces of broken glass from the street, broken beer bottles, soda bottles, or shatterproof glass. Having taken pills my whole life I could even swallow a Kosher Dill Pickle whole (Only did it once though, wouldn't want to do it again). Swallowing a few pieces every block, washing it down with beer. After midnight, I switched to Dr Pepper to wash them down. When I finally got home, I ground up several shards I had put in my pocket, mixed them with a large snifter of wine (port i believe), and slammed that down - it was only a little harder to swallow. I figure I had at least 1/4 lb of ground glass by then. I went to sleep assuming that I would never wake up.

When I woke up the next day, I was pissed. I decided not to tell anybody, and didn't for 4 days. When I finally let it slip, I was pulled into a private session with 2 therapists, a psychologist, and a psychiatrist. When they asked what was going on, what was I not talking about that would make me want to kill myself, I told them that I wanted to be a girl! The refused to even allow me to speak of it any further. I was told that it was not an appropriate subject for group therapy, and that I would need to just have to accept being a man. This was the FIRST TIME in 10 years that I had told anyone other than my mother, and the last time I had discussed it with her was 6 years earlier. They had the keys to my condition, and refused to even discuss it with me.

I guess it was at about that point that I tried to accept that I would just have to settle for being a cross-dresser. I could dress up at home, have it be my little secret, and do my best to muddle through life as best as I could. I started dressing up every night. Miraculously, my mental health started to improve, and 3 months later I was discharged. I had also quit the drugs and alcohol at the same time. The combination of the two seemed to have silenced the girl screaming to get out, but she was always there, sabotaging dates, making comments on how nice the women's outfits were, how many female friends I had, and how few male friends I had. I had a few minor relapses, each lasting only a few minutes, where I picked up, but there were always horrible consequences. Things like getting robbed at gunpoint, losing a job, or getting into an accident, usually a week or so after the actual using event. It was like God was trying to tell me "Don't do that anymore". For about 2 years I was known as the "90 day wonder", I'd get 90 days without any trouble at all, but usually just before 6 months, I'd pick up again, for that one minor slip. Usually a 3 oz glass of champagne, a 12 oz can of beer, or a single toke off a joint. Then the sh*t would hit the fan, and I'd start racking up another almost 6 months.

I finally took my last drink in May of 1980, but by then I knew I needed to actually WORK the steps. I knew that meant I would have to tell a sponsor about wanting to be a girl, and I was willing to do that.

I moved in with a girl after I got past my 6 month point, and hoped I could give up the dressing now that I was going to have a live-in lover. I'd only had 2 partners before that, each 18 months apart, and the first was a lesbian relationship, and the second involved a lot of different kinks but ended when she found out that I wanted to dress up. I threw out all my clothes and moved in with L.

Three weeks later, I realized it wasn't working, and told her I was a cross-dresser. She told me she could accept doing it privately, in the apartment, but didn't want me going out in public. Obviously I wasn't going to tell her that I REALLY wanted to transition, but at that time I didn't think that transition was possible.

For the next 8 years, I tried to convince myself that I could be content with just being a cross-dresser. I stopped trying to overtly kill myself, but I smoked like a chimney, ate terribly, and barely slept. I'd go to meetings to maintain some level of sanity, and went through 4 sponsors, telling each about the gender issues, and getting a sympathetic ear and little else.

In 1988, I guy asked me to sponsor him. I took him through the steps, and after seeing how well he did, I asked him to take me through a set of steps as my sponsor. When I showed him the inventory, with so many of the details included here, and even more, he seemed to realize that this was the ROOT of my issues. He asked me to do another inventory, but I could only write when I was dressed. He also asked me to give the girl a name. I thought about using "Rekkie", a nickname that my best friend used because he couldn't make the "X" sound, also used by my wife to indicate that she wanted to play with me sexually. I realized that it was too close, and since I already had an unusual name, an unusual femme name would make it clear that I was talking about myself. I thought about a more common name, one used by a number of women I liked a lot. It came down to "Cathy" or "Debbie", and I opted for Debbie.

The inventory written by Debbie was VERY different! I began to see how much conflict there was. I could see how dishonest and deceptive I was. I could see that I could never let anyone know the real me. I could see how I had turned used my male identity to hide my true self. It was like Clark Kent and Superman (or in this case, Wonder Woman), and "Rex" was like Clark Kent, a clumsy, shy, and accidental clown, someone you laughed AT rather than with. I'd learned to deflect any REAL conversations about REAL feelings, wants, needs, desires, or accomplishments, by becoming so intellectual that I was a "Know it All". My father used to call me "Mr Know-it-All" by the time I was 8. I spent most of my free time, including time in hospital beds (admitted over 60 times with asthma) reading non-fiction books because I hated books about boys and books about girls made me feel really sad and lonely.

My sponsor suggested that I come to some meetings as Debbie. I went to a Halloween dance, then they were having a Halloween costume contest at work, so I wore the same costume there. It was a maid's uniform, made out of black bridal satin, that I had made myself. That night, I wore a regular street outfit, skirt, heels, and blouse, to an AA meeting. The change in my personality was amazing. I had danced more at the dance, I shared more "from the heart" in that meeting than I ever had, and at work, I felt free for the first time in my entire life. It was like I had been given a "day pass" from my life with no parole sentence.

Of course, my wife was less than thrilled, and after about 18 months of no sex, getting cutting remarks, and hearing how she told all the women at a Lingerie party that her least favorite chore was sex with me, even worse than cleaning the bathroom floor around the toilet, we started couple's counseling. It took about 2 weeks for him to realize that I wasn't just a cross-dresser, I was a transsexual. After a few private sessions to confirm his diagnosis, including confirmation of my numerous suicide attempts as a teenager, and some sessions with my wife to confirm that the was NOT bisexual, he hit us with the cold hard truth.

He said "Rex is a transsexual. His mind is female, and his body is barely male. If he doesn't transition, he will probably kill himself. Every time he tried to kill Debbie, Debbie tried to kill him. Eventually, she will succeed". I remember thinking at the time "WHY COULDN'T THEY FIGURE THIS OUT 20 YEARS AGO!!". I was 33 years old. He also explained that Leslie was NOT a bisexual and wouldn't accept Debbie as a lover. We could be roommates and raise the kids together, but she'd probably want a lover on the side. Strangely, I was OK with that. I knew she had suffered, and I wanted her to be happy too. Eventually we would be divorced, but it was an act of love for both of us.

The couple's counselor sent me to a gender therapist. He diagnosed me with "battered spouse syndrome" (an accurate diagnosis) for insurance purposes, but he made it clear that we were going to address the transsexual issue head on. He gave me homework assignments, telling me to go different places as Debbie. He told me to dress as often as I could. He told me to get out as Debbie as much as I could. This was part of "Real Life Experience". He told me that once I was living "128" - meaning every hour but the hours at work - as Debbie, he would recommend me for hormones. The voice was a struggle for me, but it only took a few months to reach "128".

What was clear to EVERYBODY, including me, as they saw me out as Debbie more and more, was that I was happier, healthier, more authentic, more honest, more able to share from the heart. I had people coming out of the woodwork asking me to sponsor them. At one point I was taking 6-8 people at a time through the steps, going to coffee together. When they completed a set, I'd have them sponsor someone, having me sit with them and giving them support and coaching. I did have to move to Denver, which was more friendly to transsexuals and made it easier to find work that would cover child support.

Quite simply, I had EXISTED, struggling to settle as a cross-dresser. I had staved off the suicidal urges by under-dressing, fantasy, semi-annual sex with my wife, and several women friends.

It would be another 20 years before I would finally re-start transition, and eventually start hormones. Each time I tried to abort the transition, I would become depressed, irritable, and "Mr Know-it-All". I would even become suicidal. There was a 6 month period when I was told "Be Debbie in a Suit" I had to put the wardrobe in storage, but was encouraged to keep Debbie's personality. Not only did I break all records, I supported the others in my group and several of us broke records, and the class broke a record for having the highest success rate ever. However, when I had to make verbal presentations to groups, it became obvious that I could not come of as being authentic as Rex. The fundamental lie, the elephant in the room, was that I was trying to pretend to be a man in a suit, when it was the woman who was doing the talking. It almost looked like a "Drag Show in Reverse". Very bizarre.

I have observed that there seem to be several transsexuals on this site who have tried to CONVINCE THEMSELVES THAT THEY ARE ONLY CROSS-DRESSERS! The real cross-dressers ENJOY BEING MEN and would never want to give up the privileges of being a man.

Transsexuals have usually wanted to be girls for a long time, at latest in their early teens (onset of puberty?).
They often struggle to make it in life as men.
They seem to be more needy of their wife's acceptance of their dressing.
They seem to become depressed, even dysfunctional when forced to stop dressing.
They often talk about wanting to be accepted as female.
They tend to be less confrontational, more eager to work out a solution that supports everybody.
They tend to be very "Nice" - rarely bursting out in anger, when they do, the rage quickly subsides, and they feel shame and guilt for getting upset.
They tend to be "Eager to please" - especially their wives and children.

Many of these traits are actually medical conditions caused by having a "Female Brain".
The traits of such a brain don't change - ever. No amount of testosterone, psychiatry, therapy, incentives, or medications could change their brain composition, any more than you could grow a 6th finger.

The struggle that many of us who are transgender but were betrayed by our bodies at puberty have to struggle with, is thinking that we have to accept that we have a body that seems impossible to turn into a girl's body. When you're 6 foot tall, have dark thick hair on your face, arms, legs, and so on, have a big barrel chest, it's going to take A LOT of surgery to become an even moderately pretty woman.

Often, cross-dressing provides symptomatic relief. But the self-destructive nature may manifest itself in smoking, drinking, overeating, and over-working.

The big difference between a young transsexual stuck in a boy's body and and old transsexual trapped in a man's body - is that the older transsexual doesn't have to work too hard to leave a heart condition untreated, or a blood pressure problem ignored, or even type 2 diabetes - and when the heart attack or stroke hits, they just have to make sure that nobody calls 911 before it's too late to save them.

I tried very very hard to convince myself that I was only a masculine male. I tried to convince myself that if I tried hard enough I could get rid of any feminine desires. I think that male and female are genetic.... you can be a womanly or a girly, regardless of what you are born as genetically, and not always have to be that way all the time. You can be both. Personally, I like to use masculine and feminine. I know some very masculine women, a couple that I can say that I am more feminine than. And then of course there are feminine men. And, people that carry both masculine and feminine traits. Actually all of us carry both to some degree. What I believe we consider cisgender people are ones who have a majority of either masculinity or femininity that matches the gender they are born as.

I can't say that I know what it feels like to be a woman, but I do know what it feel like to be feminine.

When I was in my teens, I was almost sure that I was really supposed to be a girl; everything up to that point suggested it to me, I only felt normal in girls clothes, I hated fighting and any real contact sports, and wanted love way more than I wanted sex. I was completely convinced that I was TS, even though I had no sexual attraction to males at all, and I loved feeling pretty. So, I think I was all of 14 when I discovered that sexual identity and sexual orientation were completely separate things, many years before I ever read about it in books. Figuring out why I was not a TS female, on the other hand, took decades. The clinker was, that knowing why and how you're screwed up doesn't stop you from continuing to be screwed up; I think that's why psychiatrists and psychologists are said to have a higher suicide rate than other medical professionals.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

My basic belief is that no one ever "becomes" a woman. MtF TSs are already born AS a woman internally, and the rest is realizing it and then taking steps to change the body to match the internal self.

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There is a lot more to it than just changing the body. I wish it were that easy. It also includes trying to undo the socialization of all the years of being expected to behave as a man or a boy. Internally yes a true mtf TS is a woman but many times knows not how to be one. Looking like one is easy. (relatively speaking) Unlearning socializations not so much. The years of the testosterone effects the behaviors and emotions to such a great extent. It is hard to see until you change from a testosterone based body to an estrogen based body. This helps a lot but still there is so much that is learned behavior that has to be wiped out and replaced with a different way of doing and thinking things.

Over the years a lot of damage has been done and this is what needs to be fixed. Money and time can easily change the appearance. For some more money and time than for others but with enough of both it can be done. Many focus on the appearance - facial, breasts and SRS, but even with this, one would only be halfway there.

Gender identity is a sense of who you really are, and may very well be accompanied with (in the case of MTF) a female perspective of the world, and female behavior or mannerisms. Many MTF TS and gender non-conforming males are taught to repress their female identity, female perspective of the world, and female behavior or mannerisms. Many may act over-masculinely, some may act masculinely with holes and the feminine shines through, or others may act mainly femininely. The cruel truth is the feminine identity/traits/behaviors are literally beaten out of us because society expects us to be men.

Gender identity is not based on facts on how you act, what profession you're in, how you carry on a conversation, how you interact with people or spend time alone. It's how you feel on the inside and want to be treated by others and function in society, and often but not always hating the male body (MTF TS). There's a huge difference between being the real you, and putting up a facade that the world expects you to maintain.

Gender issues are so complicated and may take years or decades to figure out, some may never figure it out, some may change mind back and forth.

Here is the clinical definition of gender dysphoria (I'm not sure if the DSM-V has gone official)
http://psychcentral.com/disorders/ge...oria-symptoms/

It's not black and white.

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My wife will tell me sometimes you have NO IDEA what it's like, it ain't the glam and the glitz y'all think it is. You want that part of it but not the realness of it.

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Everyone thinks the grass is greener on the other side. Remind your wife of all the men, not women, who died, had body parts amputated, or suffered severe psychological trauma, in Vietnam and other past wars, many who were drafted and forced against their own will. When was the last time women were drafted into war? Never, outside of Israel maybe?

Maybe your wife is an FTM TS in denial, j/k.

I really get sick and tired of the gender wars and lack of acceptance of those who are CD, TG, TS, genderqueer, pangender, in betweeners, non-conforming, and others. The truth is both men and women think the grass is greener on the other side, even while being cis-gendered and not CD/TG/TS in any way. I suppose for CD/TG/TS or other non-conformers/gender variants the "grass is greener on the other side" could be more severe.

ReineD - I'm really proud of you and a delighted to hear a GG who is open to understanding and accepting CD, TG, TS, and other gender variants. :)

Question, does anyone know if the DSM-V is now official, or when it's supposed to go live? Thanks,

Debbie's post was tough to read and I'm glad I never had it that bad. Growing up in that generation little was known about transgender issues. You think things are bad now but back then it was much worse. If I was young now I would probably transition. Certainly I would be living as a woman in my twenties if not already transitioning. A couple of things hit home with me.

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Transsexuals have usually wanted to be girls for a long time, at latest in their early teens (onset of puberty?).
They often struggle to make it in life as men.
They seem to be more needy of their wife's acceptance of their dressing.
They seem to become depressed, even dysfunctional when forced to stop dressing.
They often talk about wanting to be accepted as female.
They tend to be less confrontational, more eager to work out a solution that supports everybody.
They tend to be very "Nice" - rarely bursting out in anger, when they do, the rage quickly subsides, and they feel shame and guilt for getting upset.
They tend to be "Eager to please" - especially their wives and children.

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I tick all those boxes. No doubt about it.

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The big difference between a young transsexual stuck in a boy's body and and old transsexual trapped in a man's body - is that the older transsexual doesn't have to work too hard to leave a heart condition untreated, or a blood pressure problem ignored, or even type 2 diabetes - and when the heart attack or stroke hits, they just have to make sure that nobody calls 911 before it's too late to save them.

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Tick those boxes too, on three pills a day to stave off those problems. I only have to stop taking them and my life expectancy suddenly shortens. The one thing or rather the two things that keep me going are my two little sons. But even so I've come close to walking into the sea a couple of times. I even wrote a note to my wife apologising. But I drank too much and fell asleep on the couch. I have been drinking too much lately despite having been almost teetotal until I was forty. Which was around the time I realised I was TS not a CD. My Doctor thinks I'm an alcoholic thanks to some blood tests he had done and wants me to go for counselling. I don't for the simple reason that the counsellor will try to get to the root cause of the drinking. I don't want to go there.

Who knows where it ends.

I am largely skeptical about this whole "talking yourself into being a woman" deal. I guess people can fantasize about anything - but that fantasy has to come from someplace I think, and there may well be an underlying reality that's too hard to accept and deal with - but as a fantasy it's "OK".

One of the problems with this idea is that there is no objective way to differentiate between a real TS, who has no choice, and someone who's fantasizing. I think telling a TS that they are just a CD with a fantasy can be extraordinarily dangerous. (Please feel free to PM me if you'd like details of my personal experiences with this.) It also leads many to the logical conclusion that all of us have a choice.

I just don't think you can have it both ways. It either is a choice, or it isn't. I'm certain this isn't a choice for me. I ****ing hate what it's doing to my life. I hate being trapped in a body that I can barely tolerate. I ****ing hate myself. I'm so tired of these feelings. Why, in God's name, would I choose something like this? Why would I choose to completely tear apart my life, wreck my wife's happiness, change EVERYTHING, only to turn into something that's neither man nor woman, but something else - and isn't accepted by many as anything, in any case. In the end, many of the GG's even on this forum aren't going to accept that I'm a real woman (whatever in the **** that means - they don't even know!) and sadly, the truth is, they'll be right. I'll be something else altogether.

I can only hope that what I'm becoming will be female enough to fool my brain into easing the intense agony I'm experiencing now, and that I've lived with in the background for my entire life. If not, well, I guess there's always oblivion.

So for those who insist on calling this a fantasy - because hey, how do we really know I'm a TS - you only have my word to go on - can we at least agree that mine is a pretty unappealing fantasy?

This debate is largely the same question as "which came first, the chicken or the egg?"

Is it that I fantasize about being a woman so much that I would convince myself that I'm actually a woman?
Or, is it that I have an underlying female identity that causes me to fantasize about being a woman?

What is this underlying female identity? Is it my soul having been female in many past lives? Is my brain a female brain? Maybe my brain is somewhere in between male and female? Maybe there's some unknown mechanism at work here.

It gets even more complex because there are gender identities aside from male and female...in betweeners, both, neither. Could some CD, who identify strictly as male, be TS in denial, or some other gender in denial, maybe some are, and others are just strictly CD.

Could an "in betweener" be TS woman in denial? Some may be, some may be legitimately 50% male 50% female or some other in between combination.

I do agree that telling a TS that they're a just CD with a fantasy is dangerous. That's why we have therapists. Every one of us learns new things along the road, and our understanding of ourselves as being a CD, TS woman, gender fluid, both male & female, is subject to change as more is revealed about ourselves, or that bell just rings one day and makes it clear.

Some people say that 95% of CDs identify as straight male, and others say 95% of CDs are TS in denial. The truth lies somewhere in the middle, and I can't say what the % are.

A few more questions?

1-Why could two or more boys raised in the same family, born within a few years apart, had same upbringing, values, environment, and one grow up to be a CD or TS or gender variant or gay or bisexual? And the other boy(s) a typical straight male with absolutely no desire to CD, nor to live as a woman and transition, and no desire to have sex with men--and they fully accept everything that comes along with the male role and it feels comfortable to them?

2-If all men have the pressure to conform to expected male behavior and thinking, then why do the vast majority of men have no desire to wear women's clothes even privately, yet some of us will CD at least privately? Keep in mind even though many of CD fear getting caught, we still do it any ways.

3-If all men have the pressure to conform to expected male behavior and thinking, then why do the vast majority of men have no desire or fantasy to be a woman, yet some of us do have a desire or fantasy to be a woman?

4-If all men have the pressure to conform to expected male behavior and thinking, then why do most men fear the idea of being reincarnated as a woman, and similarly would never want to be told they were a woman in a past life? Yet some of us are ok with or even would prefer to be reincarnated as a woman in the next life, and we would be perfectly fine being told we were women in past lives?

5-If all men have the pressure to conform to expected male behavior and thinking, then why are most men 100% certain of their male gender identity, even if they occasionally think the grass is greener on the other side? Yet some of us question our gender identity? Why would someone even bother questioning their gender or fantasize about being a woman, if there wasn't some bit of truth to it?

I don't see this thread as having anything to do with GG's or TS women. Both are women. One only has to do some research to come to this conclusion.

I see it as a CD thinking vs. TG thinking. Freddy in this case case can't convince himself he is a woman. The thread is based on a TG person convincing them self they are a woman (which could also be fantasy). I could be wrong but that's the way I see it.