Why is it so taboo?

Busker, you make an assumption that 1) businesses will jump on this band wagon and 2) those businesses will survive.

Some Small businesses owners will express their beliefs by refusing service. Most of them will fail miserably. All small businesses live and die by word of mouth. Treat one customer badly and word spreads. Only in small, conservative towns will such a business be able to discriminate AND survive. Even at that it will be a modest survival. The vast majority of businesses want your money before anything else. Profit is the great equalizer. Any business that arbitrarily discriminates will be gone.

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Originally Posted by Jenniferathome

Busker, you make an assumption that 1) businesses will jump on this band wagon and 2) those businesses will survive.

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Well, the problem is even if businesses DON'T jump on the bandwagon outright, it will certainly pub a damper on "coming out" parties because the LBGT community will start to march right back into the closet. Then there is no change and they will not be denied service. Yes, some businesses will fail if they enact certain policies, but then one must ask how many gays will announce themselves in advance, and how many are there in most owns. Most cities in the USA are less than 12-20 K population (older statistics and may have changed) and there are more than 12000 cities in the USA. If there are 10000 puritans and 2 catholics, who is going to win? Standing legislation has a powerful effect on how people declare themselves. In the 50's it was "no Jews allowed" at our country clubs which established "a separate but equal" kind of mentality. do we really want to re-visit that? Peer pressure is a very strong thing if you are a member of the business community.
There is nothing wrong with assumptions. If fire will burn me, I assume that by putting my hand in the flame, I'm going to get burned. Assumptions are also based on on a certain amount of fore knowledge.

Turns out, CDing isn't taboo:A taboo is a vehement prohibition of an action based on the belief that such behavior is either too sacred or too accursed for ordinary individuals to undertake, under threat of supernatural punishment.[1][2] Such prohibitions are present in virtually all societies.[1] ...courtesy Wikipedia.

It may seem taboo to some, but given our collective experience, it's clearly not taboo in western society today.

I don't think females wearing mens' clothing is taboo anymore, is it? I remember girls in the late 80's wearing a tie and mens' hats. I think Madonna started that. And you see it sometimes in high fashion.

Still I don't think it's fair girls can wear a t-shirt and jeans like men, OR t-shirt and skirt while we are only "allowed" to wear pants. Grrrr...

Busker, and anyone else for that matter, while it may not be what most on here would want to hear, I am perfectly ok with legislation that a private company be allowed to discriminate. Let them serve or not serve whoever they wish. It is their business so if they want to limit themselves and make less money, fine. Just because there is a legislation that says it is ok to do so won't hinder progression that we have seen. businesses are not being held at knife point by our holy government which can do no wrong and being forced to do business with a minority group. TBH, most private businesses were already serving or not serving who they wanted to. Like the photographer who took a pass on a same sex wedding.... Most who would decide not to want to partake and offer their service would come up with an excuse not to be available or whatever. Plenty of photographers out there who have no problems with it, and in fact would be honored to be the photographer and will gladly cash the check. Same goes for most businesses. Have faith in people, at least somewhat. I know it is a long road to the acceptance we seek, but we are moving forward, and no government legislation is going to change that.

This is a great question, but it needs to be contextualised.

Crossdressing, on the face of it, seems to be a taboo, but there are anomalies everywhere. As has been previously mentioned, women can pretty much wear what they want with no social repercussions. Diane Keaton has made a career out of it.

In some circumstances men can quite safely wear 'women's clothes'. For instance, for the last month in my home town of Perth, the official art festival is running. Adjacent to that is the Fringe festival which is full of burlesque shows, drag queen reviews, and plenty of men dressed as women for the purposes of entertainment. The stage production of Rocky Horror Picture Show is also in town, and a great many members of the audience attend while wearing costumes from the show. There are always a couple of Frankenfurters in the audience. Dame Edna Everage (aka Barry Humphries) is a scathing critic of Australian society, and is, in reality, a man in a dress.

I have been to many fancy dress parties in my life, and there is usually some man there in a dress. For some reason, macho football players tend to dress up as women in skits and plays.

So, it seems to me, that MtF crossdressing is very acceptable for comedic or entertainment purposes, but not in other contexts. As someone upthread has pointed out, this speaks to the ways women are viewed within our society, and men who want to dress like them are either figures of fun, or viewed with deep suspicion.

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Originally Posted by gendermutt

Kim, the U.S especially seems to be among the more repressed of societies...

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I think that it is a mistake to lump the entire US together as one "society." I'm a Westerner which is a quite distinct society from those of Southerners or New Englanders. We have different priorities and value systems.

It would be equally incorrect to speak of "European society." A German isn't much like a Greek who in turn isn't much like a Spaniard.

I saw some people mention Japan. I'm no expert on Japanese culture but I have researched it back in my obsessed anime fan days. Most of the time they crossdress and feature "ladyboys" for sexual/fetish reasons. I really wouldn't consider that progression.

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Originally Posted by kimdl93

Turns out, CDing isn't taboo

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I tend to disagree. "Exact semantics" don't really apply here. Cross dressing is "taboo" as it is not readily accepted in our culture. Being a minority of any sort is difficult. In our case, our minority group has been associated with "perversion".

Many religious fundamentalists consider gay people to be "perverted". As others have mentioned in this thread, our minority group is smaller than the gay minority.

Unfortunately, many fundamentalist-type people are incapable of having open minds. It might ultimately be about the limitations of their brains, not ours.

True to a big degree Eryn.... but we do have a fairly consistent approach to what is accepted in public as far as advertising, what is allowed with movies and TV shows etc etc. Definitely, and I have had the opportunity to see a good section of the country, there are a lot of differences and perceptions among the people of the U.S.

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Originally Posted by gendermutt

but we are moving forward, and no government legislation is going to change that.

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Just exactly WHERE are we moving forward? Every time on turns around there is more legalized discrimination than ever before. Voting is being effected because minorities are being cut out of exercising their rights. Women are having problems with their health needs, and prescriptions. The GLBT community is at the point of this legislation, but the serious problem is that it provides a stepping stone for every state where religion is big to write laws using religious preferences as the basis of laws. This would have a major effect on women's right to abortion, for the GBLT community we could go back to jail time for sodomy since the bible says that this is a sin. Legalizing the position of religion in the courts would seriously violate the separation of church and state doctrines that have been in place since 1786. The church could BECOME the state and that would really be a bag of worms. While a lot have stopped going to church, that does not mean that they are not wed to their bibles in all matters. There are even cds here who feel the conflict. Yes, every business can hang out a sign about who they will or wont serve and that is legal under current law but we are now adding religion to the mix and that is BAD.

It's simple really.

Men are supposed to be the strong ones, the protectors, the providers.
A man dressing as a woman goes against everything society says a man should be.

On the other hand, women are traditionally viewed as the weaker ones and when they dress as a man, it is considered a step up. She can still be and act feminine and..... wants to be feminine when wearing male clothing .

However, a male can never be masculine while wearing female clothes and does not want be/act act masculine anyway .

Busker, you are IMO fearing the religious right way too much. I understand that should that sector gain a lot of power, things could go quite badly, but, even among the RR, things are beginning to change. Attitudes are changing, those which truly oppose us are now only the farthest out on the limb. And there is ever more anti discrimination laws out there, hate crimes etc etc. We are moving way forward from where we used to be as a society as a whole.

I would state though, that when we see other religions having certain abilities applied, because of religion (not christian) they don't have to work this day, they are going to wear this item of clothing, they are going to pray at this time of day.... and often times businesses are making special exemptions, and I am fine with that as well. There is nothing wrong with religion. (I am not a christian BTW, but I do have spiritual faith that there is something greater) I agree very much that religion should be separate from state. And we have never been farther separated than we are today. No need to fear the Religious right boogeyman. They too are beginning to change, believe me.

In the bird world the males are the pretty ones. I used to have a red winged blackbird at my balcony while I was with my ex. His mate was a plain looking little brown thing that had no real appeal. Skank! :devil:

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Originally Posted by Barbara Jo

On the other hand, women are traditionally viewed as the weaker ones and when they dress as a man, it is considered a step up. She can still be and act feminine and..... wants to be feminine when wearing male clothing .

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Yes, well, let's hope that stereotype gets further overthrown next election if Hillary (crossing fingers) gets elected. She wears power suits, Margaret Thatcher wore power suits, Angela Merkel wears power suits... They get to wear menswear, we should be able to wear womenswear and be treated equally!

Christen
My two cents worth. How do you define a CD?. If its just one who wears the 'clothing' of the opposite sex, then there is less of a problem. I wear womens panties, jeans, t shirts and cuban heel boots regularly to work and at home. Not one person has commented. I wear a tie wrap skirt (sarong) at weekends. My wife made me a few of these but was reluctant to allow me to go to the shops in them, even though the kids and neighbors have no problem with it. Recently though, we went to the beer (bottle)shop and pool shop with no adverse reactions. Today, we went to the 'normal' shops and again no adverse reactions.
So, am I crossdressing? I went to the shops with a pair of flats (shoes) a tie wrap skirt and one of my wifes T shirts with lacy panties. To me this is crossdressing, presenting as male wearing female attire. To some crossdressing has to involve complete transformation into a woman which,as far as I am concerned is OK but I think this is where the disagrement with society comes in. (A bit too weird).
I will say I live in Australia (Summer at present) and we have a great relationship with Indonesia where sarongs are very popular. It probably wouldnt be as acceptable in Alabama in the middle of winter.
Yesterday I bought another pair of womens shoes (with my wife) and the SA said it was very common to sell certain types of womens shoes to men. Not high heels just flats and low heeled boots.
If cd'ing ONLY involved wearing skirts etc I think it would be acceptable in society by now, but the wigs and breast forms and mskeup etc add a degre of deviancy that will never be acceptable - unfortunately....Ellie

ps Im not having a go at people who do go the whole way as I sometimes enjoy doing that as well. I was just trying to answer the OP.

Its all in the definition.

Just read this article in the NYTIMES on transgender discharge form military service. read it and weep.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/22/op...f=opinion&_r=0
While the repeal of “don’t ask, don’t tell” in 2011 meant gays and lesbians could serve openly in the American military, transgender people still cannot, because the military defines gender nonconformity as a psychological disorder. So transgender soldiers serve in silence, facing dismissal if exposed.

Nine percent of transgender people who have served in the American military report being discharged because of being transgender or gender nonconforming. Almost all of the rest stay quiet for fear of harassment or abuse.
While Britain and Australia having serving members who are TG, the USA doesn't.
Read the article as I think it highlights again why acceptance is so far away if at all. Clearly the "umbrella" does NOT cast a wide shadow of protection.

My theory is simple--A premium is placed upon manhood in most cultures. So much so, that when women emulate men in choice of clothing, mannerisms, etc., it is not a big deal, and the attitude is "they are simply aspiring to be what is valued most."

Because the opposite is true for womanhood in many cultures, for a man to reject the masculine and gravitate toward all things feminine is seen as a rejection of what the society values most, and "we can't have that, can we?"

Well, a lot has already been pointed out here.
Part of the situation in the U.S. and others is the religion input and control.
For all the want of separation of church and state, the influence is extremely being felt in today's government and politics.
And that's scared me, more for the logic/illogic issues. (Who cares about facts? Seems to be the thought in government and their decision making processes anymore :( )

On the clothes side, we can easily apply the "women can dress in mens clothes,why can't we in women's?" logic... But again logic isn't treated so well nowadays. And logic alone won't change minds it seems.
The same thing applies with the 'reasoning' of why to CD...
_We_ may understand the difference between gender and sexuality. But the average person can't reconcile it.
(Hence the 'are you gay' assumptions). And they won't take some decent amount of time/effort to analyze / rework their own thought on it. ('Since it doesn't directly affect "me" it's much easier to just keep my old mindset'). Only if something is discovered closely relative/friend-wise might they look into it better.
The gender/sex aspect is also even a new thing to consider even by psychologists / therapists... So with the science-side a bit inexact it adds another layer.

Some mentioned other countries like Japan, the thing there I think is due to being a strong historical aspect.
CDing is thought in general to be primarily a couple forms... Gender expression, and fetish.
But there is the third form and has historically been part of Japan for some time...
Art,entertainment, as example Kabuki theater (1600's). And this theater has also had their lines of masters and masterworks.
Family names are traditionally kept strongly tied to these areas...just as a lot of varied skilled craft will have their known family names for the 'masters' of the trades.
Kabuki had its own seedy times...and shifting styles. Women played both gender roles for a time 'onna-kabuki'.
Later men took over both roles 'yarou-kabuki' and also it stabilized the theater style and legitimacy. It was _the_ thing to experience in city-life back then (going to theaters in 1600-1700s).
With all the Traditionalism that keeps as a core of Japanese culture, it's no wonder that CDing may be a bit more understood or identified there.
There's still the additional seedy fetish side...and the clubs you can go to to drink with CDing "waitresses",etc..just like you can find clubs having servers for all sorts of oddities. Clubs for drinking, cafés,etc are all over trying to be 'unusual' for attraction. But even these are handled with a great amount of professionalism..Japan is tops in the customer service side for these as well as stores. Wish this aspect spread to US...sigh... I digress tho.
Japan has also had its own religious upbringing with a more Buddhist and Shinto style which isn't as controlling or guilt-driven which may have allowed for acceptance of these things as well.

Now we have this in our way...what is the Drag shows nowadays. These are a different performer however, with the emphasis on over-the-top flamboyance, attitude, and with ties to many different art forms (comedy,pageantry,etc). Even these are limited in understanding by general population. It also is running into its own heyday recently however...thanks to popularity of Logo network, RuPaul's Drag Race (still a better "reality" show than most reality crap on TV nowadays, IMHO). But even this popularity doesn't really 'help' a standard CDer form of acceptance.

Aside from all this, I do think that there are bigger inroads being made to the knowledge of gender and transgender. It's getting more portrayal on TV, along with the GLB side of things. Also, a lot of this knowledge is learned and understood by us here thanks to the Internet.

Unfortunately, the decision makers, and leaders in the country do their own thing and don't want to deviate or change anything. (Metric's an example...I'm still annoyed how US is stubborn to not shift, I learned it in school in 70's..it's a logical system, easy to understand...then they drop it altogether and keep with the 'old ways') Things like this are keeping the country seeming more and more backwards. A lot get in office at an age that where they won't change, won't learn new things, or consider themselves above any such needs. This is a mindset across the country-and will hamper advances in any new or progressive thought. Fixed thought also is dangerous however.. When you know how people think it can make them more easily controlled or manipulated, especially by those with big resources behind them (media,corporations,lobbyists,government,etc).
Become stagnant in thought and self advancement as a nation, And you become less of a significance and more a joke in the world.

On the Arizona decisions (yay...let's head back to the 1950's thought..:( ), my Facebook popped up with a lot of talk. A common pic was of one AZ pizzeria's sign they put up showing support with "We Reserve The Right To Refuse Service To Arizona Legislators" ... The problem is this won't really impact the rule makers there either. Doubt they themselves are involved with small businesses,pizzerias,Etc). If a business wants to limit their clientele by blocking LGBT folk...I guess they'll legally be able to. I'm hoping there'll be enough supporters (even non LGBT) to directly report support and loss of business to these places and maybe sometime down the line they'll learn how they've hurt themselves.

All in all, I myself am doing a _lot_ more paying attention nowadays to supportive businesses and places. If nothing else, it at least shows the owners aren't about to shoot themselves in the foot financially due to closed-mindedness. I frequent a small diner regularly Sat mornings and other workdays after work. I brought up my CDing to a waitress there and asked about issues with me going there sometime while dressed (usually I'm there after work so not dressed). She actually asked the owner about it...who said he didn't have any issues with it whatsoever. And this is from an older guy in his 60s himself. Whether it's his thought on CDing, the fact that he's known me (gone there regularly for several years now), or the thought of losing business I don't know. But it's sure too bad more people don't think this way.

"Why is it so taboo"? It just is. Maybe that's part of the allure!

My point, in the wiki post and other comment may have been a bit indirect and unclear. Based on my experience and that of many here, CDing is far too widely accepted, tolerated and protected by law in most jurisdictions to be considered taboo. Yes, certain religious groups and regressive individuals may feel otherwise, but we are largely free to conduct our lives without official sanction. We find ourselves portrayed in the media both positively and often. That's hardly a taboo.

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Originally Posted by Jessica EnFemme

Yes, well, let's hope that stereotype gets further overthrown next election if Hillary (crossing fingers) gets elected. She wears power suits, Margaret Thatcher wore power suits, Angela Merkel wears power suits... They get to wear menswear, we should be able to wear womenswear and be treated equally!

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Woman wear masculine influenced clothes just to be excepted in a masculine run world.

Thank you!, to everyone for your input to this discussion. It is terrific to see all your views and insights.
No wonder I enjoy this place so much.

Christen x

Funny how crossdressing appears in every culture and is taboo in every culture. Just reinforces that no matter where or when we were born, we would be in the fringe. Oh well, I just don't even care any more at middle age. I just don't have the mental energy for outrage any more. Human beings are a bizzare species of animal with some weird hangups. At least they don't burn people at the stake any more.

I've always thought that it's so 'taboo' in the west, because we are often afraid of that which we don't know or understand.
It has been, and is, socially acceptable in many eastern countries (but not all)