Personas--all responses welcome

I think we all project slightly different personas for different situations... I know I have different work persona - there's the internal meeting persona; the face the customer persona; the stand up and present to 250 people persona; the fire the probationary employee persona... :eek: and others... But they're all just facets of the core personality

I don't think one has a persona in the closet... :thinking: Whoever meets me - Katey - for the first time will be the real judge of what that persona is like - but I would suggest it'll be close to what you get here, but softly spoken, and likely with a nice chilled chardonnay in hand.. :D

Katey x

Is it for the SO or for the CD. A great question.

I am trying to operate as a woman while in femme. So mannerisms, walk and posture do change. This is necessary if we are pass in public and potentially avoid confrontation.
My femme side is trying to open up thoughts and feelings my male side simply wont allow (thanks social conditioning). In an effort to explore feelings i try not to censor myself while en femme. This has lead to some different personality traits. But the overall goal is once those feelings are explored to integrate them with my male persona. So in a way the two sides are slowly merging over time. My male side has been extremely suppressed emotionally. So my femme is simply an attempt to wake up dormant feelings. In the process i th o ught it would healthy to look into feminist issues and talk to GGs about their every day problems. The goal there was to try and be as genuine a woman as possible and not disrespect their gender by acting flamboyant or abberant ( with respect to female behavior). Its a process of self exploration which happens to involve dressing, and therefore may affect personality. I just keep it as honest as possible with the wife, and so far both she and i are doing better for it

Lori put it very nicely. For many of us the real person has been buried behind years of wall building and assumed personality traits designed to fit into a binary world antagonistic to who we really are. As the clothes go on the walls come down and the truth begins to emerge. In the beginning the pendulum, freed finally to swing, may swing too far. But in time, with honesty, the center is hopefully found as the need to overcompensate for the years wearing the mask dissipates.
Authenticity is the goal. Some may feel like two people in the beginning, and I expect to a degree they are two people...one the mask fighting to remain in place and the other the true person fighting to get free. I would also guess that because some live in situations where circumstances will not allow them to dispense with the mask entirely, that they never get beyond the two person stage.

Well I never notice but my wife does admitted that she will ask me different question when I am dressed, telling me that I am not a different person but more relaxed when dressed. Of course I do act more like a women when dressed.

I am still the same person in girl-mode, granted I try to be as passable as possible; I still have not tried a female voice yet.

For me I'm always trying to bring the two together, but I think it's sort of for social functions to process.

For some people (more on the TG side) it really feels like another person, but not because it isn't them. The person they have been feels like a lie. So starting over is key.

In all versions it kind of feels that that by trying to jump the gender divide, people have to change their behavior in many ways in order to make that happen. How easily that is integrated into the core personality really depends on A LOT o things. Why they feel they need to change it, how open they can be to the world about it, etc etc.

For me personally I've never taken a name I love en femme. I have played around with a few personas in my head, but trying to integrate the two brings me the simplicity I need on this side of my life to face a lot of other complicated things that are constantly going on.

I just want to emphasize what Aprilrain said. Schizophrenia has nothing to do with multiple personalities and the DMS classification of multiple personality disorder is controversial because, as many here have pointed out, we all have different personas for different situations or at the very least can easily adopt them.

I am a Buddhist so I view the whole idea of self pretty suspiciously. I certainly don't have a female self but I also don't have a male self. For me these are both essentially social constructs that may refer to some kind of more inherent traits but really are more a matter of social control. I do recognize my self as the same no matter what clothes or what presentation I have. I am always pretty much me, even if I am wary of the idea that there is really any me there. I act like there is but I do not experience any kind of split based on the clothes that I wear. But I am really not trying to present as anything other than me. If you want to see that as macho, girly, femme or butch then that is what you see, not really what I am. I am me. What me is is a source of continual exploration but it is certainly much more than the social constructs of male and female.

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Originally Posted by FAB Forum Mods

Why do some TG individuals treat this as if there is a WHOLE other person if it is suppose to be the real him (you)?

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Most likely because he needs to somehow distance himself from the female feelings and behavior, because 1. We're brought up to believe that for a male to be feminine in any way is the worst thing we can possibly be, easily evidenced by the use of female pronouns used by military and sports leaders (not to mention our families, our friends, and THAT SO MANY WOMEN DO IT TOO!) to insult their 'troops' ('pussy', 'sissy', 'girly' etc., commonly used as as terms to signify a guy who is reluctant to do something risky). And 2. In hopes that it will allow our female partner to convince herself that he's still 'all male' and that the female behavior isn't intrinsic, that he'll still abide by all the traditional male responsibilities, such as sacrificing our own safety for hers should it come to that.

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Is this for the SO to be able to process or is it for the CD to be able to process?

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Sometimes one, sometimes both. Lots of men here simply cannot accept that they prefer the female life and role, so they create a separate persona to attribute those feelings to. It's not their fault; we're all brought up this way. It's a simple psychological defense mechanism which lets them alleviate the inner turmoil that could result when his feelings contradict his beliefs which were drilled into his brain since birth.

True multiple personality disorder is simply not the case for oh, about 99.99% of us. It's just not that common.

Whether slipping into the clothes for en femme, putting on a work vest for woodworking, or putting on my white lab coat, the person is the same. The clothing is associated with different behaviors by the person but not a personality change. I doubt that the clothing creates a different personna but it probably enables behaviors that might have been suppressed for whatever reasons.

I don't, that I know of, have a seperate personality. I have never fully dressed, the only lingering interest in doing so, is to see if one does emerge.

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Originally Posted by Nadine Spirit

I think it has a lot to do with society only offering two options. You are a man, or a woman. There is nothing in between. It is harder existing in between, people have an easier time with the concept of one of the other.

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I think that there may be several reasons for the alter ego, as there are many reasons to CD. This is one that seems very likely to me. I've said before, that I believe many CDers put on the clothes because "I can't do that / behave that way as a man? Fine! I'll be a woman"

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Originally Posted by Aprilrain

From the TS perspective I think what happens is you just drop all the male b***. I didn't start "acting" like a woman I stopped acting like I though a man was supposed to act.

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Again, this is hitting home.

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

For example, I'm quite a lot more aggressive now than I ever was as a man. As a guy, I lived in fear. I was afraid of so many things, lest my awful secret be discovered. Without that holding me back, I've got a pretty strong personality. I'm mostly fearless now - I never was as a man.

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Yes, me too. I don't feel like a woman, but I am beginning to accept, and blend into my life, various aspects that would have got me labelled "feminine" Some will still label me that way, but I don't accept it, and I don't feel it makes me any less. My SO is happy with me like this, the rest can go you-know-what, and the horse they rode in on.

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Originally Posted by sometimes_miss

Most likely because he needs to somehow distance himself from the female feelings and behavior, because 1. We're brought up to believe that for a male to be feminine in any way is the worst thing we can possibly be, easily evidenced by the use of female pronouns used by military and sports leaders (not to mention our families, our friends, and THAT SO MANY WOMEN DO IT TOO!) to insult their 'troops' ('pussy', 'sissy', 'girly' etc., commonly used as as terms to signify a guy who is reluctant to do something risky). And 2. In hopes that it will allow our female partner to convince herself that he's still 'all male' and that the female behavior isn't intrinsic, that he'll still abide by all the traditional male responsibilities, such as sacrificing our own safety for hers should it come to that.

Sometimes one, sometimes both. Lots of men here simply cannot accept that they prefer the female life and role, so they create a separate persona to attribute those feelings to. It's not their fault; we're all brought up this way. It's a simple psychological defense mechanism which lets them alleviate the inner turmoil that could result when his feelings contradict his beliefs which were drilled into his brain since birth.
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Lots of stuff here that I agree with, particularly the bolded bit. I am still guilty of this, it is hard to overcome 50 plus years of conditioning. We won't break that for generations.

Excellent thread, I'll be coming back to this, I will show my SO tonight and see if I can get her input.

I have thought a lot about this question in its original form (I am glad the allusion to schizophrenia was flagged immediately as a distraction [I would not trust that therapist!]), and can't come up with an easy answer. It may help that the word "person" comes from a mask used by dramatic actors which also served to amplify their voices (the sound). Playing different roles, different masks... They all can be adopted, embraced, at different moments, when needed, since they are required by the play. So where do I feel happier, connected to what force, energy, spirit, style, attitude, way of living? In the feminine world. My persons (my masks) are different, and I tune into a different world, where I feel more at home. Not identical, not the same, not different. It is beyond that.
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Originally Posted by Nadine Spirit

Because a man does not want these things. What things? Dresses, shaving, painting my nails, wearing jewelry, high heels, etc. A man does not want these things. Women want these things. I want these things, thus I must be a woman, or at least have a woman inside.

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I've observed this as well, both in my SO some years back and on this forum.

My SO used to not give himself permission to do things in guy mode that he felt were too feminine ... things like enjoying the arts, ballroom dancing, being looser with body language. I don't know why, perhaps he didn't want others to know how he felt inside. At the same time, my SO did not take an interest in sports I'm guessing because in his work field there are lots of men who don't have time for such things (it was OK to not be into sports).

In any event, I think that the list of gendered things changes for everyone, according to what individuals feel are feminine and masculine behaviors, although we all know that most behaviors do span both genders, i.e. women can enjoy sports and men can enjoy ballet. My SO told me a long time ago that his feminine expression gave him permission to do these things and the most obvious of these things, of course, is having an interest in feminine fashion. The other side of this, I believe, is also adopting behaviors that don't initially come naturally and that are the individual's definition of macho (which again varies among individuals depending on personal definitions). I think this is why so many people say they are dropping male behaviors when they in fact are dropping aspects of themselves that were forced to begin with, depending on how they thought males should behave.

Again using my SO as an example, over the years the real person came out whether dressed or not, and this is why my SO is exactly the same person no matter the presentation. He even did begin to take a little interest in sports eventually, perhaps because he noticed that I was interested in hockey, football, and soccer. Still, there are some things that change subtly when my SO is out in public for obvious reasons, like softening her voice a little and not sitting with legs splayed while wearing a skirt, which is understandable.

So I suppose it boils down to having rather rigid opinions about male and female gender roles and drawing a definitive line between the two. I've noticed many men who are not trans, give themselves permission to do things that a lot of CDers don't do. This is rather ironic.

I agree that the answers to this topic seem very helpful.

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Why do some [MtF]TG individuals treat [opposite gender expression] as if there is a WHOLE other person, if it is suppose to be the real him (you)?

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Each of us is mind, or human consciousness, and we use our bodies to express ourselves to others (and somewhat to ourselves), so our bodies are like masks (similar to Valerie's idea). I've often said that we MtF CDs dress because we have good taste. That's meant kind of kiddingly, but also seriously.

I love beauty and many aspects of femininity and have an urge to express that in many ways, but including with my body, my mask, by crossdressing. I have my pragmatic, make-a-living mask and my beauty/CD mask and I hope to combine the two increasingly. I've only been CDing more seriously for the past year, so I haven't combined the two masks very much yet, but I think I'll have opportunity for that soon.

I guess I feel mostly like the same person. Different mannerisms come to the front depending on how I present, but I dress more manly or more girly depending on how I feel that day.

Chicken => Egg? Egg => Chicken?

We are both in here, we just take turns driving. }:>

-MM

I've noticed the same as well, and while I am guilty of having hidden parts of myself, I have always tried never to really say I'm not giving myself permission. It's also why seeing myself as one complete person is so important to me.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

I've noticed many men who are not trans, give themselves permission to do things that a lot of CDers don't do. This is rather ironic.

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It’s difficult to maintain a singular identity when you are conflicted or in conflict with other people. Trans people are constantly invalidated by most other people and very frequently can’t resist invalidating each other and themselves.

If it is impossible for a trans person to be trans because of the hostile environment or state of mind that person would have to endure to survive then what should that person do? The most common solution is to avoid the conflict. Wear a cisgender mask or two cisgender masks (each on alternate days for good measure).

Strong and brave trans realists who have embraced the truth of their trans identities will express them in a more stable and less fragmented manner because they have synthesized the different elements of their personalities.

I've given a lot of thought to this topic. I've concluded that I don't know how to answer. I think that that in itself is a point worth entering into the discussion. It's such a straightforward question, seems like it's have a straightforward answer. There's not one.

I do different things, but that doesn't make my persona different. I could give examples of how I'm different, but different persona? I don't know. I think that would have to be answered by an outside observer.

I myself know that i do act somewhat differently when im dressed .But when im in public i try as hard as i can to be all man